| 00:54 | <Hixie> | annevk: http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=New_Vocabularies_Solution&oldid=3045 |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | annevk: it became ridiculously complicated |
| 00:56 | <annevk> | hmm, too bad |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:57 | <annevk> | though what I see there doesn't look too complicated... |
| 00:57 | <annevk> | but I suppose that's not the complete thing? |
| 00:59 | <Hixie> | not even close |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | holy crap, that spec up the parsing of that 30MB file from ome 96+ minutes to about a second |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | ("that" being implementing the table tainting part of the spec) |
| 01:36 | Philip` | wonders if that sentence was missing a verb |
| 01:37 | <Dashiva> | s/spec/sped/ I'm guessing |
| 01:38 | <Philip`> | Ah, that makes more sense |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | er yes |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | my bad |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | and /ome// |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | how in god's name are we going to catch when a slash is a permitted slash or not |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | sheesh |
| 02:15 | <Philip`> | Just permit them all |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | even those that don't make the element self-close? |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | i think that'd be confusing |
| 02:16 | <Philip`> | Forbidding something won't make authors stop getting confused when they do it |
| 02:16 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | but i think the validator saying that <p/><math><mrow/><mo/></math></p> is ok, when the / only worked on the two elements inside the <math>, is more confusing than necessary |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | we're going to have to move the handling of the / into the tree construction, but i don't know when to flag the error... |
| 02:57 | <Hixie> | what should the DOM look like for: |
| 02:57 | <Hixie> | <math><![CDATA[A]]><mtext><![CDATA[B]]><span><![CDATA[C]]> |
| 03:00 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/6A72EDA8-3556-4CAE-8810-35A6A95A33CB⊙wo is awesome |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | i hope that level of detail makes it into the spec |
| 03:36 | <MrMiyagi> | quick question about the doctype --- if it's just <!DOCTYPE HTML>, how will you be able to tell HTML 5 pages from HTML 6? |
| 03:47 | <jwalden> | forward compatibility for the win |
| 05:17 | <Hixie> | MrMiyagi: you don't need to |
| 05:44 | <jwalden> | hadn't noticed that before |
| 05:44 | <jwalden> | er, wrong channel |
| 06:02 | <Hixie> | <![CDATA[Z]]><math><![CDATA[A]]><mtext><![CDATA[B]]><span><![CDATA[C]]> |
| 06:06 | <Hixie> | i think we want <!--[CDATA[Z]]--><math>A<mtext><!--[CDATA[B]]--><span><!--[CDATA[C]]--> |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - "Error loading the folder list: Internal Server Error. Let Hixie know." |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | from http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ |
| 08:20 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: works on reload |
| 08:21 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: at least the whatwg wiki gives error 500 at random |
| 08:21 | <hsivonen> | dreamhost problem, I presume |
| 08:21 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - k |
| 08:24 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - btw, you much familiar with the client-side name/value storage part of the HTML5 spec? |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | which is I guess Sunava and others mean when they say "HTML5 DOM Store" |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | I'm trying to get a read on if/how substantial Sunava's feedback on it might be |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Mar/0015.html |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | noticing that Hixie nor nobody else responded to that yet |
| 08:29 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I'm no properly familiar with that part |
| 08:30 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: the asynchronous part is substantial |
| 08:31 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - so would be good to get some implementor response about it |
| 08:32 | <MikeSmith> | annotation indicates it's been partially implemented in Mozilla |
| 08:32 | <MikeSmith> | gavin - any clues on who implemented the client-side name/value storage stuff on Mozilla? |
| 08:41 | <jwalden> | oh, yuck |
| 08:41 | <jwalden> | <Open Issue> We currently return bytes but perhaps returning the number of characters is more useful? We'd love to hear thoughts here... |
| 08:41 | <jwalden> | this is just ugh no matter which way you split it |
| 08:42 | <jwalden> | "You shall not crucify the DOM upon a cross of UCS-2" |
| 08:42 | <jwalden> | or ES4, whichever |
| 08:43 | jwalden | wonders if he's going to get sucked into yet another list if he wants to give feedback on that message |
| 08:44 | <hsivonen> | jwalden: the comment list has been pretty low in traffic |
| 08:45 | <jwalden> | oh, it's not the other one |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | jwalden: DanC has requested that replies carry a disclaimer that it isn't a WG response, fwiw |
| 08:46 | <jwalden> | weird, but okay if I do actually respond |
| 08:46 | <jwalden> | ish, that is |
| 08:46 | <Lachy> | Hixie, in this proposed solution, it's not clear whether /> would apply to all elements including existing non-empty HTML elements, or just to new SVG/MathML elements. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies_Solution |
| 08:46 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - would be good if you could respond |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | that's the public comments list, so anybody can subscribe |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | [as noted here yesterday, being a public comment list doesn't necessarily allow subscription even though this one does] |
| 08:48 | <MikeSmith> | not sure if you need to put any disclaimer, if you're not a member of the HTML WG |
| 08:48 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - dinnet know that |
| 08:48 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder what the hell kind of sense it makes to not allow subscription to a public comment list.. |
| 08:49 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I don't know, but public-pfwg-comments doesn't allow subscription on the grounds that it isn't mean for discussion |
| 08:49 | <hsivonen> | s/mean/meant/ |
| 08:50 | <jwalden> | hm, this is poor -- mbox link on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/ requires username/password |
| 08:50 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - maybe I can fix that |
| 08:50 | <MikeSmith> | maybe |
| 08:50 | MikeSmith | goes off to check know |
| 08:50 | <MikeSmith> | now |
| 08:50 | <jwalden> | I just want the single storage email so I can get the references chain correct |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - I might be able to bounce it to you |
| 08:51 | <jwalden> | jwalden at mit dot edu works |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | if you let me know what address to bounce it to |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | OK, just attempted to bounce it to you |
| 08:54 | <jwalden> | that seems to have worked, thanks! |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | cool |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - I'm told that perms on the mbox files set to require W3C user/password access as a means to protect against spammers using them to harvest addresses |
| 09:02 | <jwalden> | ah |
| 09:03 | <jwalden> | captcha or something would be cool, or even a contact form or something to request it |
| 09:03 | <MikeSmith> | fwiw, i think you can get a W3C account without necessarily needing to join any particular WGs |
| 09:03 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - true |
| 09:05 | <hsivonen> | hmm. my implementation for "An end tag token not covered by the previous entries " in "in body" is wrong, and I don't know if I've missed a spec change |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - this presents any interesting use case for "how do I figure out what revision to the HTML5 spec might have affected my implementation".. |
| 09:09 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I keep around a diffable Lynx dump of the tokenization and tree construction sections |
| 09:09 | <hsivonen> | taken at times when I think I'm in sync |
| 09:09 | <hsivonen> | but it turns out that the approach breaks when I reinstall Lynx and get subtly different line breaking |
| 09:15 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I had failed to put "html" on the scoping list |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - would be nice to have some kind of way to do "svn blame" or equivalent |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | I think I remember the problem with that being that Dreamhost provides only ssh access to their Subversion |
| 09:17 | <MikeSmith> | no anonymous access |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | I guess there is the dev.w3.org cvs mirror, though |
| 09:19 | <MikeSmith> | so could do cvs annotate on that |
| 09:19 | <MikeSmith> | which I realize is useful only to the degree that any annotate/blame record is actually useful |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: actually, the whatwg svn repo does allow anonymous access |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I have a script (based on anne's) that scrapes the log for Hixies annotations and posts bugs in bugzilla.validator.nu as needed |
| 09:31 | <MikeSmith> | ah, great |
| 09:31 | <hsivonen> | anyway, in this case, the end tag handling as such wasn't the problem |
| 09:31 | <hsivonen> | the spec just looks different from my code there (sent email) |
| 09:32 | MikeSmith | reads hsivonen message now |
| 09:32 | <hsivonen> | but I didn't have "html" as scoping so the algorithm tried to pop root |
| 09:36 | <Hixie> | Lachy: reall? i tried to clarify that recently |
| 09:37 | <jwalden> | man, the more I think about it, the more remainingSpace seems like a rabbit hole |
| 09:37 | <jwalden> | a pity; it seems useful, too |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | i couldn't work out how to spec it |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | does it include overheard? |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | overhead, even |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | how is it encoded? |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | what if the client does some form of compression? |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | etc |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | it's a vendor-specific property, automatically |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | it's the kind of thing you'd expect to see implemented by a UA trying to introduce lack of interoperability into hte platform |
| 09:40 | <jwalden> | yeah, that about sums it up |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | right, bed time |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 09:45 | <othermaciej> | embrace, extend, ... |
| 09:46 | <roc> | I think it's a little early to judge as malicious |
| 09:46 | <roc> | people definitely want some kind of quota indicator |
| 09:48 | <jwalden> | I agree; if I or the list ever get the response I sent, I do say I only slightly lean toward not having it |
| 09:49 | jwalden | wonders what the turnaround time is on messages on w3 mailing lists |
| 09:49 | jwalden | wonders if this is the first time he's ever sent a message to a w3 list |
| 09:50 | <jwalden> | I know I had someone else send one for me one time, when I didn't want to subscribe to www-style just for a typo fix |
| 09:51 | jwalden | hopes the list doesn't eat signed emails |
| 09:52 | <jwalden> | it didn't eat it enough to ask if I wanted to allow it to be web-archived, at least |
| 10:09 | <Lachy> | Hixe, on that wiki page, it just says: "add a new tokeniser state which you go to when hitting a / instead of going to the "before attribute name state". This new state has just two exits -- one for ">", which sets a flag saying that the tag is self-closing, and one for anything else, which has a parse error and reconsumes in the "before attribute name state". " |
| 10:10 | <Lachy> | that paragraph makes no mention which tag names it applies to, nor anywhere before it |
| 10:10 | <Lachy> | *Hixie |
| 10:11 | <jwalden> | hm, is this email ever going to show up on the list or in my inbox? |
| 10:16 | <Lachy> | Hixie, the wiki also says to add support for all mathml entity references, but doesn't say how it will handle clashes between those and html |
| 10:16 | <Lachy> | like φ |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - it should have been posted already |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | I'll check into it now |
| 10:29 | <MikeSmith> | It's in the "Messages currently pending authorization in the archive approval system" moderation queue |
| 10:29 | <jwalden> | "authorization"? |
| 10:30 | <MikeSmith> | I dunno why your approval didn't stick |
| 10:30 | <jwalden> | I did give the okay to the "permission to include your message in our Web archive" email |
| 10:31 | <roc> | any CSS gurus around? |
| 10:31 | <jwalden> | indeed, revisiting the link gives the response Error: The message with id: blahblahblah has already been processed (approved). |
| 10:31 | <jwalden> | wait |
| 10:31 | <jwalden> | okay, I'm qdbing that |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - qdbing ? |
| 10:32 | <MikeSmith> | somebody else had this same problem a few days ago and brought to my attention |
| 10:32 | <jwalden> | http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/browse |
| 10:32 | <MikeSmith> | I don't have logs on my side to troublesheet it |
| 10:32 | <jwalden> | like bash.org, but for moz-y stuff |
| 10:33 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 10:35 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - I just did the approval thing on it |
| 10:35 | <othermaciej> | although apparently #webkit is a mozilla-related channel |
| 10:35 | <jwalden> | blame jruderman I think |
| 10:36 | <jwalden> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Apr/0001.html |
| 10:36 | <jwalden> | whee |
| 10:36 | <jwalden> | thanks |
| 10:36 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - if/when you try send a reply on the thread and post another message there and it don't go thru, ping me |
| 10:36 | <jwalden> | okay |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - thanks much for taking time to read and reply to that message, btw |
| 10:37 | <Lachy> | people really need to stop putting unnecessary disclaimers at the top of posts to public-html-comments |
| 10:37 | <jwalden> | sure |
| 10:37 | <jwalden> | haha |
| 10:37 | <jwalden> | I blame this channel |
| 10:37 | <jwalden> | :-P |
| 10:37 | <othermaciej> | disclaimer: this post includes an unnecessary disclaimer |
| 10:37 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 10:40 | <Lachy> | Any post that doesn't start with "This is written on behalf of the HTML WG" (or similar) should be assumed to be a personal opinion |
| 10:40 | <Lachy> | therefore, no disclaimer necessary |
| 10:42 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: That's incompatible with existing content, and many user agents |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - yeah, I agree |
| 11:25 | <hsivonen> | argh. I totally forgot about document.write() when pondering by proxy idea |
| 11:27 | <hsivonen> | s/by/my |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | Is Content-MD5 |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | a dead letter of the HTTP spec |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | or actually used? |
| 11:40 | gsnedders | bursts out laughing |
| 11:40 | <gsnedders> | "It was merely a scan of a sample of seven billion pages, not a scan of the entire Web, which would be prohibitively expensive." |
| 11:42 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/ uses Content-MD5 |
| 11:42 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: 11 out of a sample of 142236 pages |
| 11:43 | <Philip`> | (That (plus subpages) are the only ones I can see) |
| 11:43 | <gsnedders> | <http://www.united-reit.co.jp/>; is the only other I found |
| 11:43 | <gsnedders> | (admittedly, I have a database which I can query this stuff out of, unlike Philip`) |
| 11:44 | <Philip`> | I have 'grep', which works just as well |
| 11:44 | <Lachy> | but does any UA actually do anything with the info, and are the MD5 sums they send accurate? |
| 11:44 | gsnedders | doesn't have that data |
| 11:45 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: how quick is that on the 100MB file? |
| 11:46 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: It takes about 0.08 seconds |
| 11:47 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: real time or CPU time? |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | real 0m0.141s/user 0m0.002s/sys 0m0.004s for the query of the database (but, admittedly, it has the advantage of being able to do far more complex queries than grep can) |
| 11:48 | <Philip`> | real 0m0.089s |
| 11:48 | <Philip`> | user 0m0.059s |
| 11:48 | <Philip`> | sys 0m0.030s |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | yeah, that's far more expensive :P |
| 11:48 | <Philip`> | I can cope with waiting 0.08 seconds for a response |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: thanks |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: so if I wrote a filtering proxy for testing, MD5 wouldn't matter |
| 11:49 | <gsnedders> | I really just need something that I can have as part of a browse-able UI, and using grep there would get horrid |
| 11:49 | hsivonen | sent mail to implementors@ |
| 11:54 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen, Lachy: From a random sample of one page, the MD5 is wrong |
| 11:55 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: thanks |
| 11:56 | <gsnedders> | (no idea how representative that is, but it suggests that nothing checks it) |
| 11:57 | <hsivonen> | yeah. I already feel safer with cryptographic hashes protecting me against faulty proxies... |
| 11:58 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 12:00 | gsnedders | is looking through old photos and thought he'd worked out they were in Portugal, but there's French writing in it. Hmm. |
| 12:01 | <gsnedders> | And now it looks like Germany. This makes no sense. They are all within a week of each other. |
| 12:03 | <hsivonen> | :-( looks like the typo/grammar quality of my emails gets worse and worse when I write more and more email |
| 12:03 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, are you sure about that? According to RFC2616, the field value isn't merely an ASCII representation of the MD5 sum, it's a base64 encoded string from the binary representation |
| 12:03 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: yeah |
| 12:03 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: peh! base64 is an ASCII representation! :P |
| 12:04 | <Lachy> | yeah, but you know what I mean |
| 12:05 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Yeah, I know. I'm just being the typical asshole I am :P |
| 12:09 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: From my sample of one page, the MD5 is correct |
| 12:09 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Then we chose a different page, seeming we have the same data set :) |
| 12:09 | <Philip`> | s/one/two/ |
| 12:10 | <Philip`> | http://www.united-reit.co.jp/ and http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/ both give the right content-md5 |
| 12:10 | <Philip`> | (when calculating the 'correct' value with GET http://www.united-reit.co.jp/|perl -e'use Digest::MD5 "md5_base64"; print md5_base64 do { local $/; <> }' ) |
| 12:13 | gsnedders | realises he was using a _different_ base64 than the RFC 1764 (or whichever it is) |
| 12:14 | <hsivonen> | should I expect to be able to replace tagName getter via Node.prototype.__defineGetter__ ? |
| 12:15 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Not in browsers that don't support __defineGetter__ |
| 12:15 | <hsivonen> | moreover, how does one call the native getter from the monkey patch getter? |
| 12:15 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: which ones do? |
| 12:15 | <Philip`> | I think it's FF and Opera 9.5, or something like that |
| 12:15 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 12:16 | <Philip`> | (Not at all sure about WebKit) |
| 12:17 | <Lachy> | hmm. I wonder why my mac doesn't include the base64 command |
| 12:17 | <Lachy> | but it has the man page for it |
| 12:17 | <Philip`> | Oh, it looks (from the source code) like WebKit does do __defineGetter__ |
| 12:20 | <hsivonen> | "With Firefox 3.0, defining getter or setter on an already-defined property will throw an exception. The property has to be deleted beforehand, what is not the case for older versions of Firefox." |
| 12:21 | <hsivonen> | hmm. so how does one merely *wrap* a native getter or setter and still call the native one as part of the wrapper impl? |
| 12:55 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: what would the proxy do with stuff that is not convertable to xml? |
| 12:55 | <zcorpan> | like, say, <foo:bar> |
| 12:56 | <zcorpan> | or xmlns and xml:lang |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: it would drop it |
| 12:56 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 12:57 | <hsivonen> | XmlViolationPolicy.ALTER_INFOSET |
| 13:00 | <takkaria> | hsivonen: fyi, this summer I'm hoping to get accepted to write a HTML5 parser in C and hook it up to a small web browser called NetSurf |
| 13:01 | <takkaria> | (in the google summer of code) |
| 13:01 | gsnedders | wishes he was old enough for GSoC |
| 13:01 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: interesting. will the interface look anything like libxml2? |
| 13:02 | <takkaria> | hsivonen: the browser in question currently uses libxml2 for parsing, so I imagine it will be fairly easily switchable |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria - you know jmb from Netsuf? |
| 13:03 | <takkaria> | MikeSmith: yeah :) |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, dumb question I geuss |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: getting HTML5 support in libxml2 would be totally awesome |
| 13:05 | <takkaria> | hsivonen: true, but it's too much of a moving target atm I think |
| 13:06 | <takkaria> | I would like hubbub (the parsing library) to have a binding to libxml so you can easily use hubbub to create a libxml tree and use its interfaces |
| 13:08 | <takkaria> | but I guess it would be nice to be able to fold it back in to libxml2 when the spec stabilises |
| 13:08 | <takkaria> | MikeSmith: you do too, I assume? |
| 13:10 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria - nope. he used to join this channel now and then. I chatted with him a few times. I seemed to remember him having some really forward-looking plans for turning improving standards support in netsurf, but I got the impression that other maintainers weren't nearly as enthusiastic about it. |
| 13:10 | <takkaria> | MikeSmith: hm, the situation's changed a little since then it seems |
| 13:11 | <MikeSmith> | interesting |
| 13:11 | <takkaria> | everyone seems quite up for hubbub to be the parsing library |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | there remains a bit of question of why put a large amount of further work into it instead of picking up Webkit |
| 13:13 | <takkaria> | well, NetSurf has its origins in a now-obscure OS called RISC OS |
| 13:13 | <MikeSmith> | yep |
| 13:14 | <takkaria> | which runs on very low-end hardware with an OS that doesn't offer virtual memory, shared libraries, or really much RAM |
| 13:14 | <MikeSmith> | but does that remain the main target platform for it? |
| 13:15 | <takkaria> | no, it's one of many targets, but the developers are very concerned to keep NS workable there |
| 13:15 | <MikeSmith> | and if so, one would wonder what kind of browsing experience could be provided in such an environment |
| 13:15 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 13:16 | <takkaria> | it does seem a bit masochistic, doesn't it? :) |
| 13:16 | <MikeSmith> | I should mention to you that I worked at Openwave for a few years |
| 13:16 | <MikeSmith> | where that was one of the big concerns there too |
| 13:16 | <MikeSmith> | having the same browser codebase runnable on super-low-end hardware |
| 13:17 | takkaria | nods |
| 13:17 | <MikeSmith> | miniscule RAM, postage-stamp monochrome screens, etc. |
| 13:17 | <takkaria> | there's a couple of embedded linux distros interested in using it as a browser instead of e.g. dillo |
| 13:18 | <MikeSmith> | I think the Openwave lesson shows you can't really have it both ways |
| 13:18 | <MikeSmith> | do one or the other |
| 13:19 | <MikeSmith> | lesson being, either take it to the level of being a first-rate HTML+DOM+CSS+JS/XHR or decide to have it remain something for really restricted embedded cases |
| 13:20 | <takkaria> | right now it doesn't do JS and I'm not sure if there are plans to add it |
| 13:21 | <MikeSmith> | btw, after years of watching their market share disappear in this space as device capabilities got way ahead of them, Openwave announced a few days that they are end-of-lifing their browser and laying off the whole browser product-dev team |
| 13:21 | <takkaria> | mm |
| 13:21 | <takkaria> | well, I'm not really that involved with the project at large; I just know some of the devs vaguely-IRL and because I grew up using RISC OS so I still hang around of |
| 13:21 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 13:22 | <takkaria> | s/of/on IRC channels where ex-RISC OSy people are/ |
| 13:22 | <takkaria> | I'm mainly writing an html5 parser because I want to help with the spec in the some way, and another implementation hooked up to a browser I think would be useful |
| 13:22 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, absolutely |
| 13:22 | <takkaria> | even if that browser only supports a chunk of CSS 2.1 and not any JS |
| 13:23 | <MikeSmith> | especially a C implementation at this point would be very welcome |
| 13:23 | <MikeSmith> | you will earn yourself heaps of good karma |
| 13:23 | <takkaria> | heh, I'm not so interested in the karma, but it should be interesting. :) |
| 13:24 | <MikeSmith> | fwiw, I agree with what hsivonen said about hooking into libxml2 |
| 13:24 | <annevk> | roc, is that the same question you raised on www-style? |
| 13:24 | <roc> | yeah, I was just being stupid |
| 13:24 | <roc> | sorry |
| 13:24 | <MikeSmith> | given libxml2 prominence in free-software world |
| 13:25 | <takkaria> | MikeSmith: yeah. hubbub will be BSD-licenced so I don't see a problem with that |
| 13:25 | <gsnedders> | checking HTTP headers are valid is rather hard. |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | roc, will moz at some point allow positioning of the root element? |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | or am I being stupid now and you already do that? |
| 13:26 | annevk | checks |
| 13:27 | <roc> | we don't |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | indeed, just margin |
| 13:27 | <roc> | it could be done, once we've done the work to make the initial containing block the container for abs-pos elements |
| 13:28 | <roc> | our problem is that right now only blocks and inlines can be abs-pos containers |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | i think this is related to some bug i filed in 2004/2005 :) |
| 13:29 | <roc> | huh, openwave is shutting down? I guess that's good in a way |
| 13:36 | <annevk> | interesting |
| 13:41 | <MikeSmith> | roc - openwave not shutting down. they're still doing OK with their server-side/gateway business |
| 13:41 | <MikeSmith> | they're just offloading the client business |
| 13:41 | <roc> | yeah sorry I meant the browser |
| 13:41 | <MikeSmith> | I heard that that client business was still doing OK |
| 13:42 | <roc> | who cares about that server stuff :-) |
| 13:42 | <MikeSmith> | heh :) |
| 13:42 | <MikeSmith> | I spent a lot of time working on some of the server stuff, so I still care about it :) |
| 13:42 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, there are a still a few very good devs left in the browser group at Openwave |
| 13:43 | <MikeSmith> | who know lots about porting on a wide variety of devices/platforms |
| 13:43 | <MikeSmith> | and all sorts of other stuff |
| 13:43 | <roc> | well then |
| 13:43 | <MikeSmith> | and they are now up for grabs |
| 13:43 | <roc> | someone should hire them |
| 13:43 | <roc> | where are they based? |
| 13:44 | <MikeSmith> | all around |
| 13:44 | <MikeSmith> | one of the is in Australia |
| 13:44 | <MikeSmith> | one of the best ones |
| 13:44 | <roc> | interesting? |
| 13:44 | <MikeSmith> | best remaining ones |
| 13:44 | <roc> | in Canberra or Melbourne perhaps? :-) |
| 13:44 | <MikeSmith> | Melbourne, I think |
| 13:45 | <MikeSmith> | I can ask him |
| 13:45 | <roc> | sure |
| 13:45 | <MikeSmith> | I'm sure Christian Sejerson knows him too |
| 13:45 | <roc> | ok |
| 13:46 | <MikeSmith> | at least one of the main devs had already left a while back and moved to work on Android |
| 13:46 | <MikeSmith> | roc - anyway, you should maybe ping Christian about it |
| 13:47 | <roc> | I'm doing that right now |
| 13:47 | <roc> | thanks for the info |
| 13:47 | <MikeSmith> | cool |
| 13:47 | <roc> | I'm going to be in Melbourne next week :-) |
| 13:57 | <hsivonen> | hmm. the MathML in SVG zooming bug remains in firefox3b5: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001594.html |
| 13:58 | <roc> | bug is filed, getting some attention |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | roc: great |
| 13:59 | <roc> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=426980 |
| 13:59 | MikeSmith | points roc to PM |
| 14:01 | <hsivonen> | roc: thanks |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | annevk: there's a tree builder test case <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"><html></html> that doesn't follow the documented format |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | documentation says 'DOCTYPEs must be "<!DOCTYPE " then the name then ">". ' |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | cvs blame points to me? |
| 14:24 | <hsivonen> | annevk: no, but you are here on IRC :-) |
| 14:25 | <hsivonen> | annevk: where should I look to discover html5lib's undocumented features? |
| 14:26 | <annevk> | dunno, we're the market leader when it comes to tests, we can make undocumented extensions whenever we please :p |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | hsivonen, where is that test located? |
| 14:33 | annevk | wonders if the issues are actually going down |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | looking at http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html they seem to go down a bit and then go up again quite quickly |
| 14:40 | <hsivonen> | it seems likely that the latest upward par is all about SVG/MathML integration |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | true |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | so maybe that will all be solved plus some earlier discussion on math+svg |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | I didn't find your tree test serializer yet |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | oh, a serializer test |
| 14:42 | <hsivonen> | no, a tree builder test |
| 14:43 | <hsivonen> | bah. I'll send mail |
| 14:44 | <hsivonen> | blame points to jgraham_ |
| 14:57 | <hsivonen> | It would be interesting to have a chart showing the percentage of issues that are older than duration d |
| 14:58 | <hsivonen> | one test to go <!doctype html><select><input>X |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | hmm, <!DOCTYPE|html|""|""> vs <!DOCTYPE|html||""> vs <!DOCTYPE|html|""|> vs <!DOCTYPE html> |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | replace | with " " |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | the "" can contain a string as well |
| 15:02 | <hsivonen> | annevk: what about PUBLIC? |
| 15:03 | <hsivonen> | annevk: are you talking about the test format or something else? |
| 15:04 | <hsivonen> | yay. now only the doctype test is failing |
| 15:04 | <hsivonen> | and I blame that on the test violating the format |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | hsivonen, the output format |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | i'm not sure why public should be in there |
| 15:20 | <hsivonen> | annevk: It's in existing test content :-) but other than that, no reason |
| 15:34 | gsnedders | gives up on wireless and returns to the wired indoors |
| 15:43 | <gavin_> | MikeSmith: Dave Camp, I believe |
| 15:43 | <gavin_> | (among others, but I think he did most of the work) |
| 15:45 | <gavin_> | looks like Honza Bombas is doing some work to add localStorage support in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=422526 |
| 15:45 | <gavin_> | but that's not going to make firefox 3, apparently |
| 15:46 | <annevk> | hmm :( |
| 15:46 | <annevk> | so does sessionStorage match HTML5? |
| 16:04 | <gavin_> | annevk: I think it does |
| 16:05 | <gavin_> | but I haven't really followed it closely enough to be sure |
| 16:05 | <gavin_> | http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/DOM:Storage has some more information |
| 16:27 | <MikeSmith> | gavin_ - thx |
| 16:29 | MikeSmith | wonders if jwalden is still around |
| 16:29 | <jwalden> | I really shouldn't be, but I am |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | in going through archives, I notice that Sunava also posted feedback a while back related to postMessage |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/2008Feb/0024.html |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-February/014026.html |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | "IE Team Feedback on HTML 5.0 Cross Document Messaging" |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | if you want, I can bounce either or both of those to you |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | it's the same message |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | same content |
| 16:33 | <MikeSmith> | that is, if after reading through them, you find anything you feel inclined to respond to |
| 16:33 | <jwalden> | MikeSmith: I'm guessing it's the same as was sent to whatwg@ |
| 16:33 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 16:33 | <jwalden> | which I am on and do skim/read |
| 16:33 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 16:34 | <MikeSmith> | so yeah, it's the exact same content |
| 16:35 | <MikeSmith> | sunava just re-posted to public-html-comments list |
| 16:35 | <jwalden> | they didn't say a whole lot, either, really -- twiddle wording, .uri is bad, change a name for readability (but no semantic change) |
| 16:36 | <jwalden> | which seems fine enough, it's not a super-complicated thing |
| 16:36 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | when I read that I thought the only change they wanted to make is changing the name of a parameter so that it is more clear what it does |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | I see |
| 16:39 | <jwalden> | basically two spec wording changes, neither affecting what is actually implemented |
| 16:39 | <annevk> | though IE presumably will only have document.onmessage... |
| 16:40 | <jwalden> | their docs had attachEvent("onmessage", function(e) { ... }) I think |
| 16:40 | <MikeSmith> | well, given how rarely they have actually posted any kind of substantive comments about HTML5, it seems possibly good for somebody (e.g., others who have implemented that part of the spec) to ack what they do post |
| 16:41 | <MikeSmith> | with some kind of reply |
| 16:41 | <jwalden> | perhaps |
| 16:41 | jwalden | replies when there's something to say, generally :-) |
| 16:42 | <MikeSmith> | if just for the reason that they can't later say, "Well we took time post review comments a couple months back and they were ignored, so therefore we don't feel like we need to do it any more" |
| 16:44 | <MikeSmith> | those two messages essentially constitute the sum total of public review comments they've offered in the 1 year sinces they've been members of the WG |
| 16:47 | <jwalden> | I can dash something off later today perhaps if it's really necessary to make a mostly empty acknowledgement |
| 16:49 | <gsnedders> | Implicit LWS is horrid. |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden - not sure it's necessary, but I don't think it would hurt if it's something that wouldn't take you much time |
| 16:56 | gsnedders | wonders if you're allowed implicit LWS in HTTP-Version |
| 16:56 | gsnedders | thinks you can |
| 16:56 | jwalden | really thought no the last time he looked |
| 16:57 | <gsnedders> | yay. `GET / HTTP / 1 . 1` |
| 16:57 | <jwalden> | and http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/netwerk/test/httpserver/httpd.js required no lws there |
| 16:57 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: well, there's nothing that cancels the implicit LWS for HTTP-version |
| 16:58 | <jwalden> | oh, blah, yeah, there isn't |
| 16:58 | <gsnedders> | An HTTP server in JavaScript? Now I really have seen everything. |
| 16:58 | gsnedders | hates implicit LWS |
| 17:00 | gsnedders | laughs |
| 17:00 | <gsnedders> | there's nothing that prohibits implicit LWS within CRLF, so effectively RFC2616 has: CRLF = CR *LWS LF |
| 17:03 | <gsnedders> | wait, is there anything that stops implicit *LWS in LWS? |
| 17:06 | <gsnedders> | RFC2616 is fun. |
| 17:09 | <Philip`> | When you say "fun", do you mean "not fun"? |
| 17:10 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Of course not. |
| 17:10 | <gsnedders> | (When I mean "Of course" |
| 17:10 | gsnedders | throws parse error. Expected ), got EOF. |
| 17:10 | <gsnedders> | *(When I mean, "Of course") |
| 17:11 | <hsivonen> | It is not smart to allow text prettiness in protocols that are not hand-authored |
| 17:11 | <hsivonen> | comments in MIME headers, anyone? |
| 17:11 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Nononono. Recursive comments in MIME headers! |
| 17:12 | <Philip`> | I hand-author HTTP |
| 17:12 | <Philip`> | print "Content-type: text/html\n\n"; # etc |
| 17:12 | <Philip`> | (Actually I haven't yet figured out whether it should be \n\n or \r\n\r\n so I pick one at random) |
| 17:13 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: That's one bit of error handling that even RFC2616 specifies! |
| 17:14 | <jwalden> | it's CRLF, but I think accepting CR or LF is a should |
| 17:14 | <jwalden> | don't remember what it says about generating them |
| 17:15 | <Philip`> | I assume Apache messes around with the output headers anyway, because it's got to stick its own ones onto there, so maybe it automatically fixes the newlines too |
| 17:15 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: no, accepting LF is SHOULD |
| 17:15 | <annevk> | UAs accept all of CR / LF / CRLF in my testing |
| 17:15 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: it MUST be CRLF, though |
| 17:15 | <gsnedders> | annevk: not all accept CR |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | I can't remember which don't, but not all do |
| 17:16 | <annevk> | well, "all", or did I miss something? |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | Firefox or Safari didn't accept it. |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | Well, Gecko or CFNetwork |
| 17:42 | <annevk> | jgraham_, I think hsivonen made typos |
| 17:42 | <annevk> | what you suggested is what he meant, unlesss I'm missing something |
| 17:51 | <gsnedders> | annevk: of course CSS is hard :) |
| 18:16 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2008/03/validators-chart |
| 18:19 | <annevk> | wow, TimBL: "The idea of using SVG without XML is horrifying." |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | the TAG also his the wrong impression that changing the syntax is changing the design of the language |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | quite fascinating |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/04/03-minutes |
| 18:25 | <annevk> | lots of talk about changing XML too |
| 18:48 | <jwalden> | dangit dangit dangit |
| 18:49 | Philip` | wonders what brought on such a triple-danging |
| 18:50 | <jwalden> | sending the msft postMessage feedback from the wrong address, triggering moderation on the whatwg@ list |
| 18:50 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 18:51 | <jwalden> | at this point I really should just give up, but then I make it slightly harder to filter the list into a folder |
| 18:52 | <Philip`> | Doesn't filtering on from=whatwg⊙wo work just as effectively? |
| 18:53 | <jwalden> | maybe |
| 18:53 | <jwalden> | I haven't looked |
| 19:08 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: around? |
| 19:21 | <hsivonen> | I now realize that my outline for an token interning function was incredibly naïve |
| 19:21 | <hsivonen> | the one I sent to the list |
| 19:21 | <hsivonen> | but the observation was good |
| 19:21 | <hsivonen> | what to do with that observation was bad |
| 19:22 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: do you happen to have lists of all known SVG and MathML element names? What about attributes? |
| 19:22 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: also, do you already have the half-assed list of HTML elements? |
| 19:25 | <jwalden> | MikeSmith: fyi, feedback sent to whatwg |
| 19:33 | <annevk> | hmm, per the new magic the tokenizer needs to know the current node and all |
| 19:42 | <hsivonen> | annevk: did the spec change land already? |
| 19:43 | <annevk> | no, hixie updated the wiki page |
| 19:44 | <hsivonen> | oh ok |
| 19:44 | <annevk> | i should investigate the CDATA stuff better |
| 19:44 | <annevk> | maybe simon was right and it would be relatively safe to enable it everywhere causing less to authors trying to grasp the nonsense, etc. |
| 19:45 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, I've seen links to pages which list element names and attributes. trying to track them down again |
| 19:45 | <annevk> | hsivonen, at this point you reached multifail btw with your doctype stuff, either string can be null per spec |
| 19:47 | <hsivonen> | annevk: argh. my spec snapshot is out of date then |
| 19:48 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, mathml stuff from Hixie: http://damowmow.com/temp/mml |
| 19:48 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'm 100% certain the spec has been in a state where they can never be null |
| 19:48 | <hsivonen> | BenMillard: thanks |
| 19:48 | <annevk> | hsivonen, are you sure? they're explicitly set to the empty string during tokenization (initially they're "missing") |
| 19:49 | <annevk> | CDATA breakage: http://www.kozlika.org/kozeries/post/2007/10/07/A-quai |
| 19:49 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, another mathml thing here: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/308 |
| 19:49 | <annevk> | search for "rdf:RDF" |
| 19:50 | <hsivonen> | annevk: "the publicId attribute set to the public identifier given in the DOCTYPE token, or the empty string if the public identifier was not set" |
| 19:50 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'm not totally failing |
| 19:50 | <hsivonen> | annevk: hence, the tokenizer can emit null but a null never ends up in the tree |
| 19:50 | <annevk> | but i want it to end up in the serializer format |
| 19:51 | <annevk> | i think |
| 19:51 | <annevk> | it affects mode sniffing |
| 19:51 | <annevk> | for one |
| 19:51 | <hsivonen> | annevk: mode is out-of-DOM-band data |
| 19:52 | <hsivonen> | annevk: what's the point with that trickery around RDF? |
| 19:53 | <annevk> | i try not to comprehend the Web :) |
| 19:53 | <hsivonen> | I sure hope that anti-pattern doesn't come from a blogging tool and is the doing of a single template writer on one blog |
| 19:55 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if I should cut a release of the parser with all the chardet goodness before the namespace stuff lands |
| 19:55 | <Philip`> | Loads of people do <script type="text/javascript"><!--//--><![CDATA[//><!-- |
| 19:55 | <Philip`> | Uh, loads who are on tripod.com anyway |
| 19:55 | <annevk> | <script> doesn't matter |
| 19:56 | <annevk> | as in, <script> parsing would not even hit <![CDATA[ |
| 19:57 | <hsivonen> | what does "move the insertion mode flag to before the tokeniser " mean? |
| 19:58 | <annevk> | i think it means introducing the concept before the tokenizer instead of after |
| 19:58 | <hsivonen> | looks like "in namespace" *really* is a boolean flag and not a real insertion mode enumeration value |
| 19:58 | <annevk> | (because it will be used in the tokenizer, presumably) |
| 19:59 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: please make "in namespace" a "mode flag" or somesuch instead of an insertion mode |
| 19:59 | <Philip`> | http://www.biludlejningaarhus.dk |
| 19:59 | <Philip`> | (uses CDATA in a way that breaks Opera) |
| 20:00 | <Philip`> | http://pl.samsungmobile.com/ - <script id="ssInfo" type="text/xml" warning="DO NOT MODIFY!"> - hmm |
| 20:01 | <hsivonen> | analyzing the Web stuff out there doesn't build confidence in the general competence of Web developers... |
| 20:01 | <annevk> | ah, Mozilla has different error handling for CDATA that breaks MSDN: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=305242 |
| 20:01 | <annevk> | that's why I was confused |
| 20:02 | <Philip`> | http://www.jcu.edu.au/business/ does the same DO NOT MODIFY thing |
| 20:03 | <Philip`> | http://www.eragintza.net/ - I don't quite know what's going on there |
| 20:08 | <hsivonen> | mad guessing skills: http://damowmow.com/temp/svg |
| 20:10 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: when you get a chance... I'm curious why Storage.removeItem(key) doesn't cause a StorageEvent to be emitted. Or at least I can't figure out where it's mandated in the spec |
| 20:11 | <hsivonen> | it appears that HTML, SVG and MathML only use ascii letters and hyphen-minus in element names |
| 20:11 | <hsivonen> | <select1> would be a departure from that |
| 20:15 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, SVG 1.1 spec has element index http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/eltindex.html and attributes index http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/attindex.html |
| 20:15 | <hsivonen> | BenMillard: thanks |
| 20:15 | <annevk> | bradee-lunch, seems like a bug, e-mail whatwg⊙wo |
| 20:17 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, LOL @ "mad guessing skills" :D |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | I wonder, all this attention the IE team suddenly has for plugins. I guess that's just because of SilverLight and not because plugins suddenly started to be more interesting? |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | (They don't actually mention SilverLight explicitly.) |
| 20:44 | <andersca> | annevk: they do? |
| 20:45 | <annevk> | Latest example: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/04/04/designing-for-add-on-performance.aspx |
| 20:45 | <andersca> | ah |
| 20:46 | <annevk> | Oops, maybe that's more related to Firefox extensions... |
| 20:48 | Philip` | notices that the Opera Acid3 release includes 3D canvas |
| 20:48 | <Philip`> | (hence it saying "./lingogi: error while loading shared libraries: libGL.so.1.2: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory" until I fix LD_LIBRARY_PATH) |
| 20:49 | hsivonen | realizes h1-h6 use numbers in tag names |
| 20:50 | <hsivonen> | whew. - plus a-z plus 1-6 fit exactly in 5 bits |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | what if the tag name contains < ? |
| 20:52 | <Philip`> | I have no idea if gperf is relevant here (since I don't know where here is) but I'll suggest it anyway |
| 20:53 | <hsivonen> | annevk: then it's not valid and legitimate apps won't compare against it, so the string doesn't need to be interned (or interned fast) |
| 20:57 | andersca | pokes Hixie |
| 20:59 | <annevk> | hsivonen, ah, you're going to optimize existing known names? |
| 20:59 | <hsivonen> | oops they don't fit in 5 bits |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | except no valid tag name has a 'z' in it. yay |
| 21:00 | <annevk> | your optimization sounds dangerous and temporary :) |
| 21:02 | <hsivonen> | annevk: there are fewer than 2^32 standard element names. the function that maps the known elements to distinct ints doesn't need to be the same between releases |
| 21:03 | <hsivonen> | (besides, if I find that a hash table is better, they don't even need to be distinct) |
| 21:03 | <annevk> | what are you going to put in the other 3 bits? |
| 21:04 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I was thinking of taking the last 6 characters on each element name and giving 5 bits per character |
| 21:04 | <hsivonen> | that fits in an int |
| 21:08 | <hsivonen> | hmm. the cunning plan that would have worked with HTML has collisions inside MathML and inside SVG |
| 21:12 | <annevk> | just list them all a-z and give them a number |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | (all elements) |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | then map that to constants so people start not relying on the exact number :) |
| 21:13 | <bradee-lunch> | annevk: I was going to, but if Hixie's around, irc is generally much quicker :) |
| 21:14 | bradee-lunch | notices he still hasn't shown up |
| 21:14 | <hsivonen> | the number is not exposed outside the parser |
| 21:14 | <annevk> | bradee-oh, he's in hiding it seems |
| 21:14 | <annevk> | (he's on some other channel) |
| 21:14 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie's on all the channels |
| 21:14 | <bradee-oh> | ALL OF THEM |
| 21:14 | <bradee-oh> | you just don't realize it |
| 21:14 | <bradee-oh> | :) |
| 21:15 | <hsivonen> | ok. I now have a funtion that maps all known HTML, SVG and MathML elements to distinct 32-bit values |
| 21:15 | <annevk> | bradee-oh, well that too, but I mean't "active" |
| 21:15 | <hsivonen> | 18 lines |
| 21:15 | <bradee-oh> | lol |
| 21:16 | <hsivonen> | or rather, all distinct lower-cased HTML, SVG and MathML element names |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | that doesn't deal with svg:a versus html:a |
| 21:17 | <hsivonen> | chances are that this doesn't beat a simpler hash, though |
| 21:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk: same magic number |
| 21:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk: this is just a string to magic int function |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | different element though |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | oh well |
| 21:17 | <hsivonen> | same string |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | i'm not sure what you're trying to do anyway :p |
| 21:34 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'm trying to figure out how to best get an interned string for a char[] for known elements and looking up a magic group enumeration as a side effect |
| 21:34 | <hsivonen> | annevk: at least anecdotes say that parser perf should improve when interning is smarter than new String(buf).intern() |
| 21:35 | <hsivonen> | I want to remove the intermediate string object |
| 21:35 | <hsivonen> | and I want to exploit a priori knowledge of the possible contents of the strings |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | is string comparison in your parser a bottleneck? |
| 21:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I should probably profile it myself, but source comments in the XML parser say that avoiding new string + intern() is a big win |
| 21:36 | <Hixie> | oh i'm sure it is |
| 21:36 | <hsivonen> | and yes, I definitely want the strings to be interned |
| 21:37 | <hsivonen> | == is nicer than .equals() if nothing else |
| 21:37 | <Hixie> | but if it's a 50% speedup on 20ms when the rest of your validation process takes 5s, then it's not the place to be concentrating :-) |
| 21:37 | <Hixie> | of course if the numbers are the other way around, then it is |
| 21:37 | Hixie | is still amazed that he got from 90+ minutes to 1 second by implementing the table tainting stuff in the spec |
| 21:37 | <Hixie> | (on one particular page) |
| 21:38 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the gc contribution of the excessive string garbage that is generated now is hard to quantify |
| 21:38 | bradee-oh | pounces on Hixie now that he's revealed himself |
| 21:38 | <Hixie> | true |
| 21:38 | <Hixie> | bradee-oh: hey, wassup |
| 21:38 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: I just emailed whatwg before you showed (go figure), but... |
| 21:38 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: but yeah, I really should focus on getting rid of the XSLT dependency and on eliminating synchronized hashtables from the Relax ng validator |
| 21:39 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: is there any reason why Storage.removeItem() shouldn't result in a StorageEvent being fired? |
| 21:39 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the thing is that those are less stable to be replaced |
| 21:39 | <hsivonen> | at the moment |
| 21:39 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: it seems weird that we fire for one form of mutation, but not another |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | bradee-oh: e-mail is always best |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | bradee-oh: removeItem() sounds like it should fire the event |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | bradee-oh: probably an oversight |
| 21:40 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: well, its out there, but I was just curious :) |
| 21:40 | <bradee-oh> | okay! |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 21:40 | <Philip`> | String allocation was the biggest performance issue in my C++ parser |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: less stable to be replaced? |
| 21:40 | <Philip`> | but I don't know whether it still is, after having optimised it to some extent |
| 21:41 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'm waiting for upstream to change the RELAX NG validator |
| 21:41 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: and I edited the Schematron schema just last week |
| 21:41 | <Hixie> | aah |
| 21:42 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: changing all Hashtables to HashMaps will be a huge pain to maintain unless I get upstream to take my patches |
| 21:42 | <Hixie> | makes sense |
| 21:43 | <hsivonen> | perhaps I should just copy Hashtable from OpenJDK and make a non-synchronized fork of that class so that only imports would need to change |
| 21:43 | <Philip`> | You just need a cleverer JVM that can detect you're only using the object in a single thread |
| 21:44 | <hsivonen> | and I have profiled that the Hashtable usage is huge, although I haven't profiled the lock contribution |
| 21:44 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: well, yeah, HotSpot in JDK7 should fix Java 1.0 design flaws in the VM finally... |
| 21:45 | <hsivonen> | though not having the locks at all must be faster than having thread-biased locks |
| 21:45 | <Philip`> | You could make the validator multi-threaded instead |
| 21:46 | <Philip`> | so then the synchronized bits wouldn't be unnecessary waste |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | lunch bbl |
| 21:46 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: heh |
| 21:46 | <hsivonen> | anyway, the real bottle neck is Schematron memory footprint |
| 21:49 | <Philip`> | But it's a multi-core future and you can't afford to be left behind! |
| 21:50 | <hsivonen> | anyway, considering string interning and generating excessive garbage, it is really dumb that java.lang.String doesn't have a public static intern(char[] buf, int offset, int length) method |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | annevk: does opera do postMessage()? |
| 22:10 | <Hixie> | annevk: if so, it would be good to get your feedback on http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-April/014324.html |
| 22:20 | <hsivonen> | hmm. should I reply to the sgml thing or just let the dead horse rest.. |
| 22:24 | <annevk> | Hixie, event dispatching is synchronous you once explained to me, I don't see why that shouldn't be the case for postMessage() |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | please reply on the thread :-) |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | is there a DOM interface already specified somewhere that just acts as a string:string map? |
| 22:30 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#NameList |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | close |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | oh well, i'll just roll my own |
| 22:35 | <annevk> | replied |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | ta |
| 22:35 | <annevk> | Hixie, DOMTokenList is also close to http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#DOMStringList |
| 22:37 | <annevk> | a subset even, it seems |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | superset, you mean? |
| 22:37 | <annevk> | right |
| 22:38 | <annevk> | (well, when I wrote "subset" I thought of how DOMStringList is a subset of DOMTokenList) |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 22:41 | <annevk> | heh, my CustomData post gave the wiki page some attention |
| 22:41 | annevk | looks |
| 22:43 | <annevk> | oh, nothing shocking |
| 22:45 | <annevk> | actually, I was wrong about superset/subset, one uses "has" and the other uses "contains" |
| 22:46 | <annevk> | however, DOMStringList is only used by DOMConfiguration which seems like something that should be dropped from a future DOM version |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | DOMStringList is used in various places, including Opera Platform |
| 22:47 | <annevk> | NameList is not used by any other interface... |
| 22:47 | <annevk> | Opera Platform is proprietary though |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | just sayin' |
| 22:47 | <annevk> | :) |
| 22:48 | <annevk> | oh, sane wiki software on w3.org: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/Main_Page |
| 22:49 | Philip` | questions the use of the term "sane" |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | i love how they managed to make it look uglier than wikimedia's default |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | and i'm with Philip` on the "sane" part |
| 22:49 | <annevk> | well, there's http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage |
| 22:50 | <Philip`> | I could agree with "saner" :-) |
| 22:50 | <annevk> | but maybe wiki software can't be sane |
| 22:50 | <Philip`> | s/wiki // |
| 22:50 | annevk | goes back to media query error handling |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | wiki software should use html and contenteditable |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | The problem with that is that HTML is an ugly format to write in, and wiki syntaxes are much nicer |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | and nobody likes WYSIWYG editing |
| 23:00 | <hsivonen> | aside: regarding retrofitting accessibility: http://gethelveticaoffourmoney.com/ |
| 23:01 | Philip` | thought publishing images of banknotes was generally considered not a thing to do |
| 23:03 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: no worries, the eurion constellation will take away people's freedom to print the page |
| 23:04 | <Philip`> | Hmm, I thought that affected scanners too |
| 23:06 | <Philip`> | Oh, maybe not, I was just remembering the story about a photocopier |
| 23:06 | <jwalden> | haha |
| 23:06 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I haven't tested it with banknotes, but I have tried printing and scanning the eurion constellation |
| 23:07 | <jwalden> | ah, the joys of the inquisitive mind |
| 23:07 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: the system doesn't work |
| 23:07 | <Philip`> | (Apparently the Computer Lab here got a shiny new colour photocopier some time ago, so the first thing the security researchers did was try to copy banknotes, and they were surprised when it failed) |
| 23:07 | <jwalden> | if I flip the switch again, will I be struck by lightning again? |
| 23:07 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: whoa |