| 00:00 | <Dashiva> | Should add an automatic tinyurl-generator to the dom viewer |
| 00:01 | <Philip`> | I suppose it doesn't help that IE's documentation talks about DSOs with OLE DB APIs and binding agents, instead of giving simple examples that work |
| 00:03 | <Philip`> | Also they give a totally excellent example with "<H1 ID=COMPSR_FIRST>Hector</H1> <MARQUEE ID=COMPSR_LAST>Berlioz</MARQUEE> ... <TEXTAREA ID=COMPSR_FIRST>Franz</TEXTAREA> <XMP ID=COMPSR_LAST>Liszt</XMP> ..." |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | if i have two text files, and one has a marker in it which i want to replace with the other text file, is there some easy way to do that? |
| 01:44 | <Philip`> | I think sed can do that |
| 01:45 | <Dashiva> | There's also python, perl, etc with a read/replace/write |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | aha! |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | sed '/INCLUDE/ r file' <in >out |
| 01:47 | Philip` | was just trying to find that in the man page :-) |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | the sed manpage is abysmal |
| 01:47 | <Philip`> | It seems a little more complex if you want to delete the marker |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | sed '/INCLUDE/ { r file d |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | }' |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | with newlines |
| 01:48 | <Dashiva> | A lot of the basic tool man pages seem to assume you already know how the program works... |
| 01:49 | <Philip`> | The newline thing makes sed really awkward to use on the command line |
| 01:50 | <Philip`> | Much easier to do perl -ne'print /INCLUDE/ ? `cat file` : $_' in |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | yeah but i'm trying to learn new tools |
| 01:51 | <Philip`> | If you want to do that, you could write a VB.NET program that uses COM to make Word open a file and replace text |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | i'm on a unix system |
| 01:55 | <Philip`> | Do it over rdesktop |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | &CounterClockwiseContourIntegral |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | what a name |
| 01:57 | <Philip`> | Please allow a synonym &AntiClockwiseContourIntegral |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | ▪ |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | i wish i was making these up |
| 01:58 | <Philip`> | It'd be better to just add &{ANTICLOCKWISE CONTOUR INTEGRAL} allowing standard Unicode names, instead of making up a new list of names for characters |
| 01:59 | <Philip`> | Unicode only seems to have SMALL SQUAREs and MEDIUM SMALL SQUAREs |
| 01:59 | <Hixie> | U+025AA |
| 01:59 | <Dashiva> | A large square probably wouldn't fit in a single glyph :) |
| 02:00 | <Philip`> | U+25AA BLACK SMALL SQUARE |
| 02:00 | <Philip`> | (says gucharmap, at least) |
| 02:01 | <Philip`> | Oh, the MathML table already says that too |
| 02:01 | <Philip`> | (<http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/mmlextra.html>;) |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#entities |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | sigh |
| 02:06 | <Philip`> | Ooh, non-BMP characters - that's going to make things funner |
| 02:07 | <Philip`> | (although I suppose most of the non-BMP problems I've seen are in the JSON test harnesses, and those should be fixed already) |
| 07:38 | <Pavlov> | anyone know if any browsers support font-stretch? |
| 10:10 | <annevk> | shouldn't COPY come before COPY; ? |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-doctypes-960302 |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | seems Dan has been doing the URI thing for 12 years now :) |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | at least |
| 10:32 | <annevk> | heh, that document mentions <!doctype html> |
| 10:57 | <zcorpan_> | "A start tag whose tag name is "svg", if the current node is an annotation-xml element in the MathML namespace." hmm, shouldn't that be / whose tag name is "svg"// ? |
| 10:57 | zcorpan_ | forgot the s in s/// |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | no, because then <apply/> elements and all would end up in the wrong namespace |
| 10:58 | <zcorpan_> | ah |
| 10:59 | <zcorpan_> | so you can't put html in annotation-xml |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | yes |
| 11:00 | hsivonen | notes that it would be trivial to support all the four know vocabularies by dispatching on encoding='...' |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | s/know/known/ |
| 11:00 | <zcorpan_> | was that a yes as in "correct" or a yes as in "yes you can" |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | as in, yes you can't put html in annotation-xml |
| 11:00 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | hsivonen, I'm not really sure why we bother for SVG even... annotation-xml should just be non-conforming :) |
| 11:02 | <hsivonen> | annevk: depends on how much we want to push our opinions on the MathML folks |
| 11:05 | <annevk> | It seemed to me that the MathML folks cared about content MathML and that's taken care of |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2005-09-01/#parsing :) |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | the SVG fixups magic has to happen in "in body" too |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | s/fixups/fixup/ |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | same for xmlns for both SVG and MathML |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | and xml:* maybe |
| 14:09 | gsnedders | feels dumb |
| 14:10 | gsnedders | can't think how to write an SQL query |
| 14:10 | gsnedders | then realises that it would be pointless data to get |
| 14:15 | gsnedders | wonders whether to delete headers for URIs that already exist |
| 14:18 | <gsnedders> | I need average number of each name field for each value of the uri header |
| 14:30 | <hsivonen> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20080402#l-139 What meeting?? |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | is it acceptable in a humor context to frame the opposite of "foreign land" as "promised land"? |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | those aren't opposites |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | true |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | guess i'll use "home safe" as in the irc logs |
| 15:04 | <hsivonen> | looks like I could roughly double the Validator.nu performance by zapping Schematron... |
| 15:06 | <gsnedders> | An amazing number of pages send a content-location header for something that is ignored. |
| 15:07 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: automatic Apache feature |
| 15:10 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: in what version? in what cases? |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: any version, multiviews enabled |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | IIRC |
| 15:14 | <annevk> | HTML5 "propaganda" (well and for my weblog :p ): http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/04/html5-foreign |
| 15:15 | <annevk> | since not everything on the list seems to reach the world outside I'm interested in what people will say |
| 15:15 | <roc> | "/> is no longer a token of faith" |
| 15:15 | <roc> | what does that mean? |
| 15:16 | <gsnedders> | roc: it is suitable for atheists for foreign elements :P |
| 15:16 | <annevk> | I think at some point there was a remark in HTML5 for <br/> syntax that the / was a token of faith |
| 15:16 | <gsnedders> | roc: the spec used to say the solidus was a token of faith |
| 15:16 | <annevk> | because it's equivalent to <br> |
| 15:16 | <roc> | ookay |
| 15:17 | <hsivonen> | hmm... http://www.w3.org/2008/03/validators-chart |
| 15:17 | <gsnedders> | roc: "Then, if the element is one of the void elements, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS (/) character. This character has no effect except to appease the markup gods. As this character is therefore just a symbol of faith, atheists should omit it." |
| 15:17 | <gsnedders> | roc: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#start |
| 15:17 | <roc> | hmmm |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | hsivonen, yeah, I don't get their DOCTYPE endorsements and why non well-formed application/xhtml+xml would be HTML5... |
| 15:18 | <roc> | I'm not sure making HTML elements terminate the math context is the right move |
| 15:18 | <roc> | I sure hope <svg><foreignObject><p> doesn't escape |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | ah, yes, that still works |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | I should clarify that |
| 15:18 | <roc> | and to be honest I'd like to retain the option of <svg><p> 'working' |
| 15:19 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: cases of that seem to outnumber those that are the infamous IIS bug |
| 15:19 | <roc> | although that's not as important as solving this issue, so good work |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | roc, I think that if a major UA like Firefox is willing to do that it might be fine, the fear is mostly breaking pages |
| 15:24 | <roc> | we're known to be less afraid of breaking pages than some other UAs :-) |
| 15:25 | <annevk> | I added: "The MathML elements mi, mo, mn, ms, and mtext and the SVG elements foreignObject, desc, and title provide bridges so that the aforementioned magic list of HTML element names can be nested safely inside SVG and MathML (in the HTML namespace, too). They also allow for SVG in MathML and vice versa." |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | annevk: :-( re: the TAG minutes you linked to |
| 15:27 | <annevk> | bikeshed coming up |
| 15:27 | <annevk> | but yeah |
| 15:27 | <hsivonen> | a huge, huge, bikeshed |
| 15:29 | <hsivonen> | as an aside, the economists say decisions shouldn't be based on sunk cost... |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | I'm reading a book on recent Africa history and it has this chapter titled "The Passing of the Old Guard" which sounded familiar |
| 15:30 | <annevk> | hsivonen, what do you mean? |
| 15:31 | <hsivonen> | annevk: when deciding a course of action, the cost of what you've done already shouldn't matter per se. the cost from where you are now to anticipated decisions consequences should matter, though |
| 15:31 | <hsivonen> | annevk: example: |
| 15:32 | <hsivonen> | the amount of money that has been put into SVG in browsers is not the point when adopting SVG for HTML. The point is that using what SVG functionality there already is to implement SVG-in-text/html is less costly than starting from scratch |
| 15:33 | <hsivonen> | so the effort the W3C has put into XML should not matter |
| 15:33 | <hsivonen> | the cost from getting from the current state of adoption to somewhere we want to go should be considered instead |
| 15:34 | <hsivonen> | and the cost of replacing text/html with something else would still be huge |
| 15:34 | <annevk> | lets use that and others when it comes to the anticipated clash |
| 15:38 | <hsivonen> | http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html |
| 15:41 | <hsivonen> | also: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html |
| 16:25 | <hsivonen> | annevk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: adding the extra headers (bringing the database to just over 1.1 million headers) has changed the result set quite a bi |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | *Bit |
| 16:32 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I imagine the changes come from e.g. most of cnn.com being removed from dmoz |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: just plain removed from dmoz, or…? |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: filtered out? |
| 16:35 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Removed from the data published by dmoz.org |
| 16:35 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: k |
| 16:36 | <hsivonen> | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=concorde+fallacy |
| 16:36 | <hsivonen> | interesting stuff |
| 16:52 | <gsnedders> | for those interested in some basic HTTP data before I have a full UI: <http://pastebin.ca/974108>; |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | hsivonen, cool stuff |
| 16:57 | <gsnedders> | hah! Lovely misuse of the Server header: Powered By Pure Caffeine |
| 16:57 | <gsnedders> | I actually found that by looking at the page that has a "Main source of energy" header |
| 16:58 | <gsnedders> | Main source of energy: Running on beer & pizza! |
| 19:06 | <annevk> | http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ is interesting |
| 19:08 | webben | has that installed somewhere |
| 19:08 | <webben> | it's not half-bad, but needs more CSS support IIRC |
| 19:09 | <annevk> | it's cool that they're implementing HTML5 parsing |
| 19:09 | <annevk> | http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/ |
| 19:09 | <annevk> | though http://source.netsurf-browser.org/trunk/hubbub/ is broken |
| 19:10 | <webben> | neat :) |
| 19:25 | <annevk> | hmm, I tried e-mailing but the list seems moderated |
| 19:25 | annevk | tries John-Mark Bell |
| 19:26 | <webben> | annevk: I see your email. |
| 19:26 | <annevk> | interesting |
| 19:27 | <annevk> | that's slightly weird |
| 19:27 | <webben> | maybe the list indexy thing just hasn't updated yet |
| 19:27 | <annevk> | well, it's there too, but the weird thing is the e-mail I got |
| 19:27 | <annevk> | saying I could still cancel the posting and all :) |
| 19:28 | <webben> | hmm. strange |
| 19:29 | <annevk> | either they're really prompt or the moderating system fails |
| 19:30 | <webben> | I guess you could write a 2nd email about /that/ |
| 19:30 | <webben> | see if it happens a second time |
| 19:31 | <annevk> | ah, got a reply, there is some moderation apparently |
| 19:31 | <webben> | I don't understand how I saw your email so fast if there's moderation. |
| 19:31 | <webben> | just luck a mod checked their inbox at that moment? |
| 20:17 | <annevk> | Another C HTML5 parser (not complete): http://vlists.pepperfish.net/pipermail/netsurf-dev-netsurf-browser.org/2008-April/000398.html |
| 20:19 | <gsnedders> | peh! Real-life! |
| 20:20 | <annevk> | didn't you know? all HTML5 parsers are written in VL |
| 20:20 | <gsnedders> | VL? |
| 20:27 | <csarven> | Is VL short for VRML? :) |
| 20:28 | <annevk> | RL <-> VL |
| 20:28 | annevk | thought it was obvious :) |
| 20:33 | <csarven> | heh.. is it VL or VR? |
| 22:19 | <annevk> | hehe, Flash evangelists are "attacking" HTML5: http://aralbalkan.com/1305 |
| 22:31 | jgraham | discovers that using a full programming language as a configuration format is not conducive to helping noobs who don't understand that language |
| 22:37 | <annevk> | Shelley makes no sense to me |
| 22:37 | <annevk> | she thanks me for the summary but then starts flaming based on misguided assumptions about a discussion she claims she didn't follow |
| 22:42 | <annevk> | heh, RDF fanatics use " and <em> for quotes |
| 22:42 | <annevk> | there goes the semantic Web |
| 22:49 | <annevk> | Hixie, heh, working on those 600+ e-mail reply now? |
| 22:55 | <jgraham> | "So HTTP 1.0 was a failure too? And DOM Level 1? And CSS1? And the first season of Buffy? And the first Feynman lecture? And the first act of Macbeth? Maybe this paragraph is a failure too, since it's followed by more paragraphs. :-)" |
| 22:55 | <jgraham> | Is a wonderful sentence, with one error; the *whole* of Buffy was a failure |
| 22:56 | jgraham | hides |
| 22:57 | <annevk> | now you'll get a ban :p |
| 22:59 | <jgraham> | What for failing to notice that it's actually 5 sentences? |
| 22:59 | jgraham | tries to look innocent |
| 22:59 | <jgraham> | s/5/7/ |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | jgraham: yeah i wasn't a big fan of buffy (especially seasons 1-4) |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | 6.6 was a good episode |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | and spike and dawn made 5-7 watchable |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | but i'm just not a fan of whedon's writing style -- it's good, just not my kettle of fish :-) |
| 23:03 | <jgraham> | I have friends who were really into Buffy but I'm never really got it. |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | hmm, if we do <script> and <style> using CDATA stripping <![CDATA[ would help authors... |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | but it might be problematic for E4X and all... |
| 23:13 | annevk | shrugs |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | e4x? |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | how so? |
| 23:17 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: But HTTP 1.0 was a failure :P |
| 23:17 | <annevk> | not sure, but I remember <!-- being a problem for it |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | annevk: eh? |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: i hope html5 is that much of a failure |
| 23:19 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: So almost everything will move away as soon as HTML6 is out? |
| 23:19 | <annevk> | Hixie, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311071 |
| 23:20 | <annevk> | Hixie, no idea what the exact problem is, there's no testcases, examples, etc. |
| 23:24 | <annevk> | Hixie, there's more here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=309242 |
| 23:24 | <annevk> | Hixie, and here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=311157 |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | Hixie, though I suppose that if we only strip <![cdata[ at the start it might be ok |
| 23:29 | <jwalden> | frankly, I don't think you should worry about E4X |
| 23:30 | <jwalden> | it's rarely used, the spec's not very good, rarely implemented, and if it complicates parsing (which it would), you should fall back on external scripts or entity encoding |
| 23:32 | <annevk> | the problem is a combination of existing SVG content, current parsing of <script> in XML, parsing of <script> in HTML, and the desire to make existing SVG content work in HTML |
| 23:33 | <annevk> | (well, and existing HTML content that contains <svg><script> presumably...) |
| 23:35 | <jgraham> | annevk: html5lib produces a parse error when it encounters EOF in innerHTML mode and there is > 1 tag on the stack of open elements, which is commented as so: "# XXX This is not what the specification says. Not sure what to do |
| 23:35 | <jgraham> | # here." |
| 23:36 | <jgraham> | Do you mind if we switch that error off at the moment to agree with the testcases and presumably the spec |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | no, go ahead |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | though please check the spec if you plan on removing the comment :) |
| 23:36 | <jgraham> | I won't remove the comment |
| 23:42 | <jgraham> | Hmm. It might just be the testcase that's wrong. The code looks pretty unlike the spec. Maybe I should try sleeping first and thinking later :) |