| 00:07 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | webkit sometimes returns readyState as 'loaded' |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | but I can't get IE to return that |
| 00:07 | <Hixie> | only 'interactive' |
| 00:08 | <gsnedders> | Browsers are odd. |
| 00:08 | <gsnedders> | We should just XML. Draconian error handling will sort everything out. |
| 09:08 | <annevk> | well, <q> is obsolete now: http://googlenewsblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/words-matter.html |
| 10:10 | <hsivonen> | where did the idea the passing the W3C validator increases Google rank come from? |
| 10:12 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, it probably evolved from the idea that valid markup is easier to parse than invalid markup, and thus if google can't read your page properly due to invalid markup, it won't rank it correctly. |
| 10:13 | <Lachy> | of course, it's total nonsense |
| 10:13 | <Lachy> | or maybe it's for the Google Accessible Search http://labs.google.com/accessible/ |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | nah. If you care about accessible search, you probably actually care about accessibility instead of just rank in the normal google search |
| 10:14 | <Lachy> | in which case, it would derive from the validity requirement in WCAG 1.0 |
| 10:15 | <Lachy> | yeah, but it's like chinese whispers. People read one thing, misunderstand, tell others another thing, and the idea just evolves into things that are only remotely related to the original |
| 10:16 | <hsivonen> | yeah. some of the SEO "expert" guidance out there is total bullshit |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | even if 'lies to children' might be useful is the short term, in the long run, there's the risk that people figure out the lie and then the general credibility of HTML 5 is gone |
| 10:18 | <Lachy> | indeed. The only really good expert advice is to write content that people are interested in, use reasonably appropriate semantic markup and don't try to play tricks |
| 10:32 | <tommorris> | It's a useful lie. |
| 10:33 | <tommorris> | The SEO folks are so gullible that you can just say "valid HTML increases PageRank" and we all benefit by them making their pages valid. ;) |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | wouldn't a more direct lie work? like good alt text increases page rank? |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | that might even not be a lie. I don't know. |
| 11:07 | <Mook> | help? looking at the <video> specs, and having trouble figuring out if an element is "actively playing" as a content author. |
| 11:08 | <Mook> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-January/013605.html says "!video.paused && !video.ended && video.readyState >= HTMLMediaElement.CAN_PLAY" but I can't tell if that covers "playback has not stopped due to errors, and the element has not paused for user interaction. " |
| 11:54 | <Philip`> | It seems hard to tell how many people are using alt for SEO, how many are using it for tooltips, and how many are using it for 'proper' reasons |
| 11:54 | <Philip`> | but if people are actually using alt properly, I suppose it doesn't matter what their reasons are |
| 12:27 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: their reasons don't matter for the end result, but the reasons matter when formulating policies that seek to influence people through reasons |
| 12:29 | <hsivonen> | hmm. isn't the pure way to do what zcorpan_ suggests on list to use a <meter> with XBL2? :-) |
| 12:32 | <Philip`> | Back in the real world, we need solutions that actually work :-p |
| 12:34 | <Philip`> | With XBL2, would AT see the pre-transformed or post-transformed DOM? |
| 12:39 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: gloves... :) |
| 12:41 | <zcorpan_> | which blog is splitting up images in the heading to make it wrap? |
| 12:42 | <zcorpan_> | http://vivabit.com/ |
| 12:43 | <zcorpan_> | though it uses css, but the idea is the same |
| 12:44 | <Philip`> | I hope Google doesn't start doing OCR of images, since that'd remove one of the incentives to providing legitimate alt text |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: :-) |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: the theory is that the non-transformed tree would be conveyed to AT |
| 12:45 | <Philip`> | http://dromaeo.com/ - that uses split images in the heading, to make it resize interestingly |
| 12:46 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Won't that theory fail the first time someone uses an element the AT doesn't recognise, and transforms it into elements the AT would recognise (like normal HTML elements), so the AT would be much better off using the transformed tree? |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: yes |
| 12:48 | <Philip`> | Oh, okay |
| 12:50 | <hsivonen> | so for XBL2 to work as advertised, the first browser that implements needs to implement AT access to meter, progress and WF2 *first* |
| 12:51 | <Philip`> | And people have to only use those elements, not make up a <myjstoolkit-fancywidget> and use that instead |
| 12:52 | <zcorpan_> | should we allow <data-foo> elements? |
| 12:53 | <Lachy> | zcorpan_, for what use case? |
| 12:53 | <zcorpan_> | for custom complex structure that's inconvenient to use in an attribute value |
| 12:54 | <zcorpan_> | though i guess it's starting to get ugly at that point |
| 12:54 | <Lachy> | but then that would fill the page with visible, though potentially non-human readable data |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, I think <div class=...> and <span class=...> are for that |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | Actually, I know they are :) |
| 12:55 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: true |
| 12:58 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: Why not just put the complex structured data in the data-* attribute, encoded as XML or JSON? |
| 12:58 | <Lachy> | zcorpan_, for data that won't fit well into data-foo="" attributes, authors would be better off putting the data into a data structure (like an array, JSON, etc.) and associating that data with a particular element using id="" or some other reference in a data-* attribute |
| 12:59 | <Lachy> | Philip`, it's difficult to embed XML markup as an attribute value |
| 12:59 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: escaped xml in an attribute is ugly |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | <div data-foo='<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><b>Hello world</b></html>'> |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | Doesn't look ugly to me |
| 13:00 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: "&" gives you trouble |
| 13:00 | <zcorpan_> | you also need to parse it yourself if you want to access it |
| 13:00 | <Lachy> | Philip`, it's not well-formed XML, so you would need to escape < and & properly in XHTML |
| 13:50 | <tommorris> | embedded XML inside other XML or HTML attributes is a horrible mess. |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | What we need is a <![CDATA[...]]> for attribute values |
| 13:58 | <tommorris> | Or better yet to make sure that nobody designs XML or SGML syntaxes that use CDATA attributes |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | or better yet, don't use attributes for this |
| 14:08 | <tommorris> | yep, it's a bad idea. |
| 14:08 | <Philip`> | <xml><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><b>Hello world</b></html></xml> |
| 14:09 | <Philip`> | Works fine for most web users |
| 14:15 | <Lachy> | Philip`, except that <xml> in IE gives very different results from any other browser. |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | So does e.g. <canvas> |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | (There's <xml src="..."></xml> too, which is kind of like synchronous unscripted XMLHttpRequest) |
| 14:20 | <Philip`> | http://msdn.microsoft.com/archive/en-us/dnarxml/html/ICPXML.asp?frame=true - "The <XML> tag is reserved by the W3C for use in HTML." - huh? |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | Philip`, v |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | Philip`, http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-xh-19980511#xml-block |
| 14:24 | <Philip`> | http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/fb2xe77x(VS.85).aspx - I'm glad nobody uses that |
| 14:30 | <Philip`> | Er, nobody except http://pagesperso-orange.fr/cyril.distinguin/ and http://eskil.meb.gov.tr/ and http://history-pc.narod.ru/ and http://www.maximumhardcoremovies.com/wild_hardcore/index.html |
| 14:30 | <Philip`> | (plus a million times as many pages that I haven't looked at) |
| 14:32 | <Philip`> | annevk: I guess that means HTML5 is a non-conforming specification, since it violates the requirement "the group decided on a vote of 10 for and 1 abstension (none against) to use an element called XML. This must be added to a future version of HTML." |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | future version doesn't mean HTML5, it could be HTML6, or HTML5+n |
| 14:35 | <Philip`> | HTML5 is a future version of HTML, and since <xml> must be added to a future version of HTML, that logically means it must be added to HTML5 |
| 14:43 | <roc> | no |
| 14:44 | <Philip`> | You can't argue against logic! |
| 14:44 | <roc> | that's not logic |
| 14:44 | <doublec> | besides, the topic says to leave your sense of logic at the door... |
| 14:45 | <roc> | go to sleep Chris |
| 14:45 | <doublec> | hmm, the same could be said to you roc :) |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | Go to sleep the both of you. |
| 14:46 | <doublec> | hehe |
| 14:46 | <Philip`> | Can I go to sleep too? |
| 14:46 | <roc> | one ... more ... patch |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Invalid timezone. |
| 14:46 | Philip` | gets lunch instead |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | Can I have a medal for procrastination? |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | I feel like I deserve one. |
| 14:47 | <Philip`> | I could give you one, but it might take me a while to get around to it |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | Hah. |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | I admit, it's taken me a while to ask for one. |
| 22:51 | <gsnedders> | does anyone know what Prince's default page margins are? |
| 22:53 | <takkaria> | too big |
| 22:54 | <gsnedders> | "By default each page has a 90pt margin on the left and right and a 72pt margin on the top and bottom." — http://www.princexml.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=226 |
| 23:21 | <Philip`> | Star rating widgets are often interactive, so you can click on the nth star to submit a rating of n |
| 23:21 | <Philip`> | so <progress> won't work there - what's a good alternative? |
| 23:23 | <annevk> | <meter> without initial value? |
| 23:23 | annevk | wonders if that's possible |
| 23:24 | <Philip`> | Er, I meant <meter> not <progress> |
| 23:24 | <Philip`> | Rating: <a href=vote?1><img src=onstar alt='Current rating: 2 out of 3. Submit your vote: 1' title='Vote 1/3'></a><a href=vote?2><img src=onstar alt=2 title='Vote 2/3'></a><a href=vote?3><img src=offstar alt=3 title='Vote 3/3'></a> |
| 23:24 | <webben> | logically speaking it's a input type="range" |
| 23:24 | <webben> | perhaps |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | yeah and once submitted it's converted into <meter> |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | could work |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | once the CSS/XBL story actually works for form controls |
| 23:25 | <webben> | yep |
| 23:25 | <webben> | if it ever does |
| 23:26 | Philip` | still doesn't like depending on technologies that don't exist yet |
| 23:27 | <othermaciej> | best current way would probably be to put a click event handler on every star |
| 23:28 | <othermaciej> | (since you probably want to submit the rating in some ajaxy way) |
| 23:28 | <othermaciej> | or you could make them <input type="image"> and have an onsubmit handler on the form do the async submission |
| 23:29 | <Philip`> | If it's done with multiple images, I'm wondering what suitable alt text should be, since it needs to convey the value of each star and the current rating, and there are ~5 separate alt attributes to spread the text across |
| 23:31 | <webben> | it's certainly fiddly |
| 23:32 | <othermaciej> | logically, it's an <input type="range" min="1" max="5"> |
| 23:32 | <othermaciej> | but XBL binding that to look right - good luck |
| 23:33 | <othermaciej> | I guess input type="number" might be more appropriate |
| 23:33 | <othermaciej> | (same min and max) |
| 23:33 | <othermaciej> | anyway |
| 23:33 | <othermaciej> | you could use alt to represent the state and "title" on each star to indicate what clicking it will do |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | It should be possible to write conforming HTML5 that works in legacy browsers |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | in which case you can't use new <input> types or XBL |
| 23:33 | <othermaciej> | assuming you use input type="image |
| 23:35 | <Philip`> | othermaciej: The issue (or at least the one I'm pretending to care about) is that you then have multiple images conveying a single piece of information (the current rating), and alt is defined to only be about the information conveyed by a single image |
| 23:35 | <webben> | could also be a fieldset of radio buttons |
| 23:35 | <othermaciej> | <form onsubmit="changeRating(event)"><input type="image" alt="" title="set rating to 1/5"><input type="image" alt="2/5"....> |
| 23:35 | <othermaciej> | where 2/5 is the current rating |
| 23:35 | <othermaciej> | that might not give good results in a screen reader though |
| 23:36 | <Philip`> | You should be able to vote for the current rating too (where 'current rating' is determined by other voters) |
| 23:37 | <webben> | <fieldset><legend>Rating: 2 out of 5</legend><input type="image" alt="Set rating to 1 out of 5"><img alt=""><input type="image" alt="Set rating to 3 out of 5">...</fieldset> |
| 23:37 | <webben> | maybe |
| 23:38 | <gsnedders> | Problem with developing print style sheets in Prince: you forget how bad actual browsers are at all the page CSS (i.e., css3-page, css3-gcpm). |
| 23:41 | <othermaciej> | would using ARIA to pretend the star control is a spinbox work? |
| 23:42 | <othermaciej> | this is really a case where you can easily build the UI you want for non-disabled users, but you want a low-level accessibility API to make things great for the visually or motor impaired |
| 23:43 | <webben> | i'm sure you could do /something/ with ARIA. |
| 23:44 | <webben> | that sounds reasonable. |
| 23:45 | <webben> | "This functionality should be accomplished programmatically through the use of up and down arrows on the keyboard." (http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#spinbutton) ... would be better if they didn't specify particular keys though! |
| 23:46 | <Philip`> | Seems like there's a danger that for any accessibility-related problem, I could just say that ARIA can probably solve it, so that's okay, and then I don't actually know how to use ARIA and haven't got a clue how to test it even if I did use it, so I'll just leave it until later (i.e. never implement it) |
| 23:46 | <webben> | yep |
| 23:46 | <Philip`> | I can cope with understanding accessibility at the level of "if all images are replaced by their alt text, the page should still be usable", but that's about it |
| 23:48 | <webben> | easiest way to test these things is to ask some real users to test them (e.g. jaws-users mailing list, discuss⊙mc etc.) |
| 23:49 | <webben> | VO/FireVox/Orca/NVDA are also relatively easy to learn, though hard to use the same as someone who needs to use them in anger. |
| 23:49 | <Philip`> | Hmm, I think I consider other people's time too valuable to ask them to review my rubbish web apps :-) |
| 23:49 | <webben> | Opera Voice is another interesting one |
| 23:50 | <webben> | Philip`: It's a mailing list, they can always ignore you :) ... they're often keen to help webdevs in passing though. |
| 23:50 | <webben> | Philip`: Also, if you can generalize the technique at all, then you can publish it and save someone else the testing. |
| 23:51 | <Philip`> | If they ignored me and didn't waste their time, that'd be wasting my time instead, so it'd be better to just not ask :-) |
| 23:51 | <webben> | Only with the advantage of hindsight. |
| 23:52 | <Philip`> | Seems like it would be a useful resource if I was doing anything that actually had users, though |
| 23:52 | <webben> | with this theoretical spinboxy thing, I wonder whether Opera Voice would use the ARIA role or the non-ARIA markup or what |
| 23:53 | <Philip`> | Does Opera Voice understand ARIA? |
| 23:53 | <Philip`> | (Is there a test somewhere to find out?) |
| 23:53 | <webben> | annevk: Do you know whether Opera Voice is using the ARIA stuff being implemented in Kestrel? |
| 23:54 | <webben> | Philip`: Problem is knowing what one's testing. First you'd need to find a nice ARIA test, then check Opera is exposing it to MSAA, the check what OV does. |
| 23:54 | <webben> | and even though it's a bit hard to know |
| 23:54 | <webben> | OV's a bit buggy. |
| 23:54 | <webben> | (e.g. in 9.x, you can't open links in the content area) |
| 23:54 | Philip` | wishes Opera Voice worked on Linux |
| 23:54 | <othermaciej> | we really want it to be possible for the platform to let you build an accessible rating control |
| 23:54 | <othermaciej> | whatever the mechanism |
| 23:55 | <webben> | another option might be to using aria tristate checkboxes |
| 23:56 | <webben> | for those stars where you click once for a half-start |
| 23:56 | <webben> | *half-star |
| 23:56 | gsnedders | sings, "Happy birthday to me!" |
| 23:56 | <webben> | happy birthday gsnedders |
| 23:57 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: One more year closer to old age |
| 23:59 | <webben> | Philip`: there's basically no speech recognition for the Linux platform, unfortunately. |
| 23:59 | <webben> | Nobody's even licencing the Nuance engine AFAIK. |