| 00:44 | Dashiva | chuckles at 1472 |
| 00:50 | <webben> | Philip`: Have you done a survey of @abbr ? |
| 00:57 | <takkaria> | The Endgame |
| 00:57 | <takkaria> | mispaste there |
| 01:00 | <Philip`> | webben: What kind of survey? |
| 01:03 | <Philip`> | webben_: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080422#l-43 |
| 01:04 | <Philip`> | From looking at a few cases of @abbr, it's used almost entirely for day names in calendars, and I think that's all from Wordpress |
| 01:04 | <webben_> | any sort of survey |
| 01:05 | <Philip`> | except for some who get the full/abbreviated forms the wrong way round |
| 01:06 | <Philip`> | and some who have abbr="abbrText" and abbr="%A" |
| 01:06 | <webben_> | Philip`: Do you have a link to that survey? |
| 01:06 | <Philip`> | webben_: No, since I only just started my thing looking for @abbr uses - it'll probably take ten minutes or so |
| 01:06 | <webben_> | oh right, that was quick |
| 01:07 | <Philip`> | Actually, it'd be more useful if I got the full cell text as well as the @abbr value |
| 01:07 | <webben_> | Yep. |
| 01:10 | Philip` | wonders what happens if he runs the surveyer process twice |
| 01:10 | <Philip`> | (*twice simultaneously) |
| 01:11 | <Philip`> | Oh, the second one goes fast since all the HTML data is cached |
| 01:12 | <Philip`> | webben_: Do you have any ideas of a useful way to present the data? |
| 01:13 | <webben_> | um ... cell innerHTML, abbreviation, URL to page/ideally page fragment |
| 01:14 | <webben_> | Philip`: conceivably one might want to include some other markers of sanity |
| 01:14 | <webben_> | e.g. abbr doesn't make much sense for a layout table: is this table using th/caption/summary/headers/scope |
| 01:14 | <webben_> | dunno how hard that would be to build into your tests though |
| 01:15 | <Philip`> | webben_: Hmm, there seems to be few enough non-calendar @abbr examples that it'd probably be better just to check those cases manually |
| 01:16 | <webben_> | maybe it's worth gathering non-calendar examples |
| 01:16 | <webben_> | specifically |
| 01:16 | <Philip`> | It'd be nice if I could automatically detect all the calendars |
| 01:16 | <Philip`> | but they're in lots of languages |
| 01:16 | <webben_> | if the calendar examples are just some devs following the same markup pattern, they won't tell us much |
| 01:16 | <webben_> | but they all have months and stuff? |
| 01:17 | <webben_> | I mean, it's not like the localizations are that complex |
| 01:17 | <Philip`> | (土曜日, woensdag, Martedì, domingo, ...) |
| 01:17 | <Philip`> | They're mostly day names, and only occasional month names |
| 01:17 | <Philip`> | (as far as I can tell) |
| 01:17 | <webben_> | hmm |
| 01:18 | <webben_> | if you had days of the week in major languages, that might do it. |
| 01:18 | <Philip`> | æ˜ŸæœŸå… -- hmm, charset error |
| 01:19 | <Philip`> | Maybe I could just look for any page with seven @abbr attributes |
| 01:19 | <webben_> | that's a bit fuzzy, might quasi-work though |
| 01:21 | Philip` | wonders if he can write the result-processing script before the result-collecting program finishes the last 50K pages... |
| 01:22 | <webben_> | hehe :) |
| 01:23 | <Philip`> | Erk, only 7K left |
| 01:23 | <Philip`> | I think I'm going to lose |
| 01:24 | <webben_> | Quick! Code faster ;) |
| 01:25 | <Philip`> | I lost |
| 01:34 | <Philip`> | webben_: Is http://philip.html5.org/data/table-abbr.html vaguely useful? |
| 01:34 | <Philip`> | Uh, that table needs borders |
| 01:34 | <Philip`> | (How do I give a table borders?) |
| 01:34 | <webben_> | td {border: 1px solid black;} |
| 01:35 | <Philip`> | Ah, thanks, that doesn't look too ugly |
| 01:37 | Philip` | updates the file |
| 01:37 | <Philip`> | It's sorted by number of abbr on the page, so all the ones with 5 are grouped together |
| 01:42 | <Philip`> | (By "5", I obviously mean "7", though that doesn't change the validity of my statement) |
| 01:43 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: Are you saying the ones with 5 aren't grouped? :) |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | well |
| 01:44 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: I am making no statement whatsoever about the ones with 5 |
| 01:44 | <Philip`> | except to the extent that my statement about 7 generalises to all values of 7, including 5 |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | what we determine from this is that people suck and abbr is as much of a mess as the rest of the web |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | good times! |
| 01:44 | <Philip`> | I'm quite surprised that that page is valid HTML5, since I was hardly even trying |
| 01:44 | <Dashiva> | I used abbr for actual abbreviations today, so all is not lost |
| 01:44 | <Philip`> | though I doubt it's a very accessible table |
| 01:45 | <Philip`> | and also it doesn't render right unless you have a beta browser |
| 01:47 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Alternatively, we can determine that Wordpress has ensured that a majority of @abbr users are using it correctly and usefully |
| 01:47 | <Philip`> | (Well, I'm guessing it's Wordpress, but I only looked at about two examples...) |
| 01:48 | <Philip`> | Oh, I'm guessing wrong, there's lots of generic calendar widgets too |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | Philip`: yeah, because the odds of someone knowing what "Sun" means in teh context of a calendar are so low that it's critical that it be marked up! |
| 02:17 | <Philip`> | Hixie: It seems reasonably critical when the headers say "M, T, W, T, ..." and you're navigating through the table and want to work out what day the 22nd is (by getting your AT to read the cell's headings) and you're in a "T" column |
| 02:17 | <Dashiva> | Surely you can afford two letters |
| 02:17 | <Philip`> | Two-letter day names are ugly |
| 02:17 | <Philip`> | Three letters looks fine by takes too much space |
| 02:18 | <Hixie> | Philip`: maybe. |
| 02:18 | <Dashiva> | Then use single letter but Tu and Th |
| 02:18 | <jruderman_> | i've seen R used for thursday |
| 02:18 | <Philip`> | That's even worse |
| 02:18 | <jruderman_> | MTWRF |
| 02:18 | <Philip`> | jruderman_: That's even worser, since it doesn't even make sense |
| 02:18 | <Dashiva> | jruderman_: That ruins the WTF substring |
| 02:19 | <jruderman_> | haha |
| 02:19 | <jruderman_> | "My Japanese class isn't just a WTF class. it meets on monday and tuesday too!" |
| 02:21 | <Philip`> | Making tables uglier for a vast majority of users, to make it more accessible for a minority, doesn't seem like a tradeoff that people will often pick |
| 02:22 | <Philip`> | so there should be a way to make the table accessible whose cost is lower than that ugliness |
| 02:23 | <jwalden> | R for Thursday makes total sense |
| 02:23 | <Philip`> | I can't stop myself reading it as "Rursday" |
| 02:24 | <Philip`> | And you still get problems on weekends, unless you say Sunday = U or N or something |
| 02:24 | <Dashiva> | You're only allowed to do that on days ending in -amburger |
| 02:28 | <Philip`> | Catalan(?) calendars look fun to abbreviate, since the days are dilluns, dimarts, dimecres, dijous, divendres, dissabte, diumenge |
| 02:29 | <MikeSmith> | 日月火水木金土 |
| 02:30 | <Philip`> | 日一二三四五六 |
| 02:31 | <Philip`> | (Chinese?) |
| 02:31 | <Philip`> | (I'm guessing based on the web site design, not on the text) |
| 02:32 | <MikeSmith> | 日一二三四五六 is not used in Japan at least |
| 02:32 | <MikeSmith> | so must be Chinese I guess |
| 02:32 | <MikeSmith> | weird that it uses numbers for every day except Sunday |
| 02:32 | <Philip`> | Is Sunday the first or last? |
| 02:33 | <Philip`> | (or middle?) |
| 02:33 | <MikeSmith> | Sunday is the first character |
| 02:33 | <Philip`> | Okay |
| 02:33 | <MikeSmith> | the last one is six |
| 02:33 | <MikeSmith> | 日 actually means "Sun" |
| 02:34 | <MikeSmith> | or also "day" |
| 02:34 | <blooberry> | mikesmith: wow, what you had just said could be hard to interpret if you didn't know the kanji. |
| 02:34 | <Philip`> | Looks more like a chest of drawers to me |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | looks like the svgwg's requirement for svg in text/html is that any svg thing that works in text/html must work in xml if copy-pasted |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | i wonder if that requirement is achievable |
| 02:35 | <Philip`> | What about SVG things that don't work in text/html? |
| 02:35 | <Philip`> | (and what does "work" mean?) |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | not sure about svg things that don't work in text/html |
| 02:36 | <Hixie> | work means that you get an equivalent rendering with no new errors if you copy and paste the fragment from the original source bytestream and reserve it as image/svg+xml |
| 02:37 | <Hixie> | which i guess means we have to do extreme validity checking, e.g. making sure there are no conflicting xmlns attributes, and not rendering any graphics if there are any errors |
| 02:38 | <othermaciej_> | Hixie: I don't see how to achieve it without introducing some level of draconian handling to text/html |
| 02:38 | <othermaciej_> | which, to my mind, largely defeats the purpose of putting svg in text/html |
| 02:38 | <Hixie> | yes, you would have to introduce some sort of draconian handling for svg subtrees |
| 02:38 | <Hixie> | i'm not saying i agree with the requirement |
| 02:38 | <Hixie> | i'm saying that that is their requirement |
| 02:39 | <Hixie> | if we disagree with their requirement, then unless either we change our mind or they change their mind, we won't get consensus on what the spec should say |
| 02:39 | <Hixie> | the point might be moot if the requirement is no achievable, though |
| 02:40 | <Hixie> | so if one disagrees with the requirement, one has two lines of attack, either argue against the requirement, or argue that the requirement is not met (assuming it is indeed not met by their proposals) |
| 02:40 | <Hixie> | if one agrees with the requirement, then one would have to find a solution that meets it |
| 02:40 | <Hixie> | i don't see a sane solution that achieves it yet |
| 02:44 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Even if you do agree with the requirement, shouldn't you still argue that the requirement is not met if it's not met? |
| 02:45 | <Philip`> | That argument seems independent of opinions on the requirements, it's just about technical facts of the proposals |
| 02:46 | <jruderman_> | Philip`: whoever came up with the names for the days of the week clearly didn't think it through |
| 02:47 | <Philip`> | They really should have predicted that I'd have a digital watch with only space for two uppercase letters |
| 02:48 | <h3h> | isn't two easy? |
| 02:48 | <Hixie> | Philip`: sure |
| 02:48 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i |
| 02:48 | <h3h> | one is the hard case |
| 02:48 | <Hixie> | er |
| 02:48 | <jruderman_> | and that colleges would want to be able to express classes as being held on "MWF" or "TR" |
| 02:48 | <h3h> | I love Rursday |
| 02:48 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i'm just saying that if the requirement can't be met, and you're against hte requirement, it may be easier to argue that you agree with it and that it isn't met, than to disagree with it |
| 02:49 | <Philip`> | h3h: It's easy but it doesn't look very elegant |
| 02:49 | <Hixie> | Philip`: usually requirements _can_ be met, and thus arguing that it isn't met is not a successful argument against the requirement |
| 02:49 | <h3h> | true. it's easier to just use 0-6 |
| 02:49 | <Philip`> | Hixie: That seems like a dishonest way to argue |
| 02:50 | <jruderman_> | http://www.google.com/search?q=Rursday+mtwrf "Did you mean: Thursday mtwrf" |
| 02:50 | <jruderman_> | <3 google |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i'm not necessarily advocating it |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | Philip`: just making an observation :-) |
| 02:50 | <Philip`> | h3h: 0-6 is not easier when sensible people think weeks start on Monday but everyone else says Sunday |
| 02:51 | <Hixie> | Philip`: (it is important to be able to recognise such debate tactics since often people use them in the standards world) |
| 02:51 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I'm not necessarily implying it's a bad thing to do :-) |
| 02:51 | <h3h> | sounds like it's ripe for an RFC |
| 02:51 | <Hixie> | (or in politics in general!) |
| 02:53 | <Philip`> | (At least numeric day-of-week input is easy, because you can accept 0 and 7 as Sunday, and people can choose whether they want to think about Su-Sa=0-6 or Mo-Su=1-7) |
| 02:58 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: by the way, when do you plan to update acid3? |
| 02:59 | <othermaciej> | we've been sitting on the patch to fix WebKit |
| 02:59 | <othermaciej> | (which is lame and cheesy of us, admittedly) |
| 03:10 | <Hixie> | oh right |
| 03:10 | <Hixie> | will do that shortly |
| 03:24 | <Hixie> | just did big updates the the faq |
| 06:48 | <Hixie> | the ps3 web browser is so great i can't even click on the link to go to the acid3 test |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | 25/100 and a renderig better than IE's |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | not bad |
| 06:49 | <othermaciej> | heh |
| 06:54 | <Hixie> | hey it passes acid1 perfectly |
| 07:51 | <webben_> | Philip`: Thanks for the table :) From an initial look through, the abbr are either wrong and harmless (), or just harmless, or helpful (albeit not always /shorter/, but when not shorter, clearer) |
| 07:52 | <webben_> | wrong and harmless e.g. empty abbr on td when td is a layout cell in a layout table, not acting as a header. |
| 07:53 | <webben_> | It's interesting to see some people using abbr in a somewhat similar way to how I've used it (not just shortening/clarifying, but also dropping widgets like links out of headers) |
| 07:53 | <webben_> | e.g. where you have << M, dropping the << link to the previous week and substituting Monday for M. |
| 07:54 | <Hixie> | apparently the ps3 browser is a netfront build of some description |
| 07:54 | <Hixie> | which explains the less than stellar results i've been getting |
| 07:54 | <Hixie> | it also appears to not support |for (x in o) ...| |
| 07:54 | <webben_> | Hixie: is it still being developed? |
| 07:54 | <Hixie> | in js |
| 07:54 | <Hixie> | webben_: no idea |
| 07:55 | <webben_> | I got the impression a lot of the console browsers are developed by those mobile browser companies who've been thrown onto the rocks by Opera Mini and WebKit-derivatives. |
| 07:58 | <othermaciej> | Opera developed the Wii browser did they not? |
| 07:58 | <othermaciej> | (or do you count them as thrown on the rocks?) |
| 07:59 | <webben_> | othermaciej: I wouldn't count Opera as a mobile browser company (by which I really mean, a company that produces dedicated rendering engines for mobile, but not for desktop) |
| 07:59 | <webben_> | so not thrown on the rocks |
| 08:00 | <webben_> | s/by Opera Mini and WebKit-derivatives/by Opera and WebKit-derivatives/ |
| 08:00 | <webben_> | there's a least one browser of that sort where development has been canned entirely |
| 08:00 | <webben_> | forget which console it's for now |
| 08:00 | <othermaciej> | I'm just saying, there is no reason a console browser can't use a top tier engine |
| 08:01 | <webben_> | Oregan |
| 08:01 | <othermaciej> | I have heard of pure mobile browsers having trouble yeah |
| 08:01 | <webben_> | othermaciej: Absolutely. That's why the old products are being thrown on the rocks, as I understand it. |
| 08:01 | <Hixie> | yeah really, i don't understand why the ps3 doesn't use webkit or gecko |
| 08:01 | <Hixie> | the netfront browser is pretty crappy |
| 08:02 | <webben_> | it's funny they don't support for (x in o) given they have a whole Ajax widgets platform |
| 08:02 | <othermaciej> | they probably contracted it out and with with the lowest bidder |
| 08:02 | <webben_> | maybe this is an old version though |
| 08:02 | <webben_> | http://www.access-company.com/products/netfrontmobile/browser/widgets.html |
| 08:03 | webben_ | tries to imagine being paid to develop a Netfront mobile widget. Can't quite see it. |
| 08:03 | <webben_> | we have way too many widget platforms |
| 08:04 | <hsivonen> | their marketing material shows the network operator as someone who should read browser marketing material. that's a bug right there. |
| 08:20 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: deleted spam and spammer from WHATWG blog |
| 08:37 | <annevk> | it seems that almost all abbr= usage is wrong from http://philip.html5.org/data/table-abbr.html |
| 08:38 | <annevk> | after all, abbr= should contain the abbreviated form, not the expansion |
| 08:38 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, thanks |
| 08:38 | <annevk> | admittedly, i never got that either when i've used it so i used it incorrectly too... |
| 08:39 | <Lachy> | hmm. There's still more to delete. I'll do it shortly. |
| 08:39 | <Lachy> | I also have to upgrade to WP2.5 |
| 08:44 | <webben_> | annevk: Well, it's "wrong" in a strict spec sense of not being an abbreviation; but unlike a lot of HTML usage, it's /right/ in the sense of picking up on how the attribute is meant to be used by user agents. |
| 08:44 | <webben_> | "Abbreviated names should be short since user agents may render them repeatedly. For instance, speech synthesizers may render the abbreviated headers relating to a particular cell before rendering that cell's content." |
| 08:45 | <webben_> | i.e. authors using expanded names for days are actually doing something useful for that usecase |
| 08:45 | <webben_> | even if they're tunnelling it through abbr |
| 08:46 | <webben_> | I suppose one could also argue that Monday is an "abbreviated form of the cell's content" of M in so far as M only really makes sense in the context of that row. |
| 08:48 | <webben_> | I grant it wouldn't work very well for " For visual media, the latter may be appropriate when there is insufficient space to render the full contents of the cell. " ... but then UAs could trivially detect which is shorter. |
| 08:48 | <webben_> | and in any case, no UA has implemented that visual use AFAIK. |
| 08:50 | <webben_> | see also: "Provide terse substitutes for header labels with the "abbr" attribute on TH. These will be particularly useful for future speaking technologies that can read row and column labels for each cell. Abbreviations cut down on repetition and reading time." (WCAG 1.0) ... Monday is a "summary information" for that header cell, given its context. |
| 08:51 | <webben_> | http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#table-summary-info |
| 08:52 | webben_ | wonders if any mobile browsers might implement short abbr attribute in visual display. |
| 08:52 | <webben_> | I can't see how an attribute works well for that, given table headers often contain links and so forth. |
| 08:52 | <annevk> | I don't think arguing it's right is useful. It's clear that nobody understood how it was to be used. |
| 08:53 | <webben_> | They understood how it /was/ used. |
| 08:53 | <webben_> | (and is used) |
| 08:55 | <webben_> | annevk: I'm not so much arguing it's right, as that the way it's used is useful, and reflects a use-case envisaged in the spec and actual UA implementations. |
| 08:56 | <webben_> | Actually, given it only says "may be appropriate", I guess it's consistent with the unimplemented(?) feature too. |
| 08:57 | webben_ | concludes most abbr= usage is more-or-less right in Philip's sample. |
| 08:59 | <webben_> | that is, it's not unreasonable for UAs to apply an algorithm to decide whether it /is/ more appropriate. |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | wow. issue graph looking good. |
| 09:08 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: notice the new blue line :-) |
| 09:10 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: what's that? |
| 09:10 | <Hixie> | number of occurances of "XXX" and "big-issue" in the spec |
| 09:10 | <hsivonen> | lots of those |
| 09:10 | <Hixie> | 508 |
| 09:11 | <hsivonen> | I now see that the page documents the blue line |
| 09:11 | <hsivonen> | somehow it's hard to pick up from the middle of a paragraph |
| 09:11 | <Hixie> | i added it last week when my mail was being slow, since i started working on XXXs instead of mails |
| 09:12 | <Hixie> | that's where the document.scripts, applets, etc, was added |
| 09:13 | <hsivonen> | looking at my open schema bugs, unresolved WF2 questions are the main theme |
| 09:14 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 09:14 | <Hixie> | i'm waiting for the task force to resolve in some way |
| 09:14 | <Hixie> | i don't want to merge wf2 if the w3c decides we're doing something else |
| 09:14 | <Hixie> | (though i'm likely to time out when i run out of other things to deal with) |
| 09:15 | <hsivonen> | I'm rather disappointed that there hasn't been more WF2 action in the Gecko and WebKit code bases by now |
| 09:16 | <Philip`> | http://code.google.com/soc/2008/webkit/about.html has a WF2 one |
| 09:18 | <othermaciej> | part of the reason we haven't moved very fast on WF2 is due to it being in semi-limbo |
| 09:18 | <roc> | yeah, didn't Hixie just say he was going to gut it? |
| 09:19 | annevk | would like most to stay in |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | though i'm obviously biased working for an implementor and having made a test suite |
| 09:19 | <roc> | personally I want XBL2 more |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | yeah, that'd be nice |
| 09:20 | <hsivonen> | roc: I thought Hixie said the repetetion model will be axed |
| 09:20 | <othermaciej> | XBL2 is also a WebKit gsoc project |
| 09:20 | <othermaciej> | both of those are pretty ambitious |
| 09:20 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: implementing it would be the best way to get out of limbo |
| 09:20 | <othermaciej> | likely will not get to 100% in the scope of a single summer |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: yeah, but when we implement things we almost always have comments |
| 09:21 | <Hixie> | roc: i dunno about gutted, but maybe slimmed and trimmed |
| 09:21 | <hsivonen> | I thought "everyone" was expecting hyatt do implement XBL2 in WebKit |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej> | and the path to fielding them and updating the spec is a little unclear |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej> | hyatt has a short attention span |
| 09:21 | <othermaciej> | you can expect "someone" or maybe "multiple people" to implement XBL2 in WebKit sometime |
| 09:23 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: are you considering trimming something other than the repetition model? |
| 09:25 | <roc> | also, WF2 gives you better ways to do things that you can already do today |
| 09:26 | <roc> | but features like offline apps give you ways to do things you just can't do today |
| 09:26 | <roc> | the latter are a bit more compelling |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: everything is always at risk |
| 09:26 | <hsivonen> | roc: yeah, but not having native sliders sucks. and having to use ARIA to make the "today" version accessible sucks |
| 09:27 | <roc> | yeah, I understand |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | roc: we try to balance improvements to existing stuff and brand new functionality |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | Selectors API would be in the former category |
| 09:27 | <roc> | so do we |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | arguably CSS Transitions too |
| 09:27 | <roc> | I would argue that's more in the new functionality category |
| 09:28 | <othermaciej> | really? almost every JS library has a well-optimized version |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | it's a continuum |
| 09:28 | <othermaciej> | saving the big pile o' code and the > order of magnitude speedup is good of course |
| 09:28 | <roc> | giving the browser control of the frame rate is a great new capability |
| 09:29 | <othermaciej> | well, being able to write an AJAX combo box without a big pile of script and explicit XHR is also a great new capability |
| 09:29 | <othermaciej> | as is a slider control (though that one we already have in WebKit) |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | the slider control was the first whatwg feature to get a public demo |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | though i doubt steve jobs knew what he was demoing when he showed it |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | wwdc 2004, iirc |
| 09:30 | <roc> | othermaciej: stuff like GWT exists |
| 09:30 | <roc> | I'm not saying WF2 is worthless |
| 09:31 | <Hixie> | it's not as exciting |
| 09:31 | <othermaciej> | roc: GWT is surely far more of a burden for delivering features than, say, jQuery or Dojo |
| 09:31 | <roc> | sure, they exist too |
| 09:31 | <othermaciej> | I really want <input type="search"> and <input placeholder=""> in the spec |
| 09:31 | <othermaciej> | so I know what we need to fix to make them spec-compatible |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: get the task force disolved :-) |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | or at least resp;ved |
| 09:32 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I did my best! |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | resolved |
| 09:32 | <othermaciej> | I will have to write the Architectural Consistency document myself, I guess |
| 09:32 | <othermaciej> | and fruitlessly get people to comment |
| 09:32 | <roc> | I spent a significant amount of effort polishing getBoundingClientRect/getClientRects this cycle, so I do care about improving existing stuff :-) |
| 09:32 | <othermaciej> | I guess odds are no one else on the TF will do real work though |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | i will update the webpage to point to your document :) |
| 09:34 | <othermaciej> | roc: I'm not even sure what we are debating because I almost always agree with your judgment about what is good to add to the web platform |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: well, if nobody does any real work, your job is easier -- just do the work you want, and keep pushing it and giving deadlines until you basically have a de facto resolution |
| 09:35 | <roc> | yeah, it's one of those silly conversations |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | so since you're all here |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | would it be problematic if i pushed rangeFromPoint and caretRangeFromPoint to v2? |
| 09:40 | <annevk> | along with all other improvements for a CSS box model API? |
| 09:40 | <othermaciej> | not sure what is in that category |
| 09:40 | <annevk> | i'm not sure either |
| 09:40 | <othermaciej> | it's not a problem for me but we may feel compelled to invent something ourselves due to high-priority developer requests |
| 09:41 | <othermaciej> | (specifically for hit testing to a character) |
| 09:41 | <roc> | RangeView is in that category too, getBCR and getCR for ranges |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | that'd be caretRangeFromPoint... |
| 09:41 | <othermaciej> | yeah |
| 09:41 | <othermaciej> | what is RangeView? |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | some additional features for Range |
| 09:42 | <othermaciej> | ah |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | to get the size of ranges |
| 09:42 | <roc> | it |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | ok, I suppose i can add caretRangeFromPoint and rangeFromPoint and have another WD first before going to Last Call |
| 09:43 | <roc> | the reverse of rangeFromPoint etc ... methods to give you the bounding boxes of text subranges |
| 09:43 | <othermaciej> | I'm still not sure what the regular rangeFromPoint is suposed to do |
| 09:43 | <othermaciej> | and how it is different |
| 09:43 | <othermaciej> | roc: yeah, that sounds useful |
| 09:43 | <annevk> | the regular rangeFromPoint is hit testing without layout calculations |
| 09:43 | <annevk> | so it would return an element range if you click in the margin |
| 09:43 | <othermaciej> | what does that mean? |
| 09:43 | <roc> | rangeFromPoint is like elementFromPoint |
| 09:43 | <othermaciej> | "without layout calculations" |
| 09:44 | <roc> | except that if you're over a text node, it can give you a particular character cell |
| 09:44 | <othermaciej> | all hit testing is based on layout |
| 09:44 | <annevk> | othermaciej, well, I mean you don't need to find the nearest text node, it just returns what's right under the cursor |
| 09:44 | <othermaciej> | what is the use case for that? |
| 09:44 | <annevk> | "cursor" |
| 09:44 | <othermaciej> | you still have to hit test line boxes if it is supposed to give character cells when you click the character |
| 09:45 | <othermaciej> | and you'd also have to define what happens when you click in the gap between lines |
| 09:45 | <othermaciej> | is that part of the line box? |
| 09:45 | <roc> | you can specify it in terms of event targeting |
| 09:45 | <othermaciej> | it sounds like it would actually be harder to implement, potentially |
| 09:46 | <othermaciej> | since every engine that supports editing must have the logic to do the equivalent of caretRangeFromPoint |
| 09:46 | <othermaciej> | mouse events don't target text nodes |
| 09:47 | <roc> | I'd argue that's a quirk of the DOM |
| 09:48 | <roc> | you may be right, perhaps the use cases for rangeFromPoint are limited enough that authors should just use a combination of elementFromPoint and caretRangeFromPoint |
| 09:48 | <othermaciej> | I'm still not entirely sure what would be a use case for rangeFromPoint |
| 09:48 | <roc> | but hmm |
| 09:48 | <othermaciej> | not denying there is one |
| 09:48 | <othermaciej> | I just can't think of one off hand |
| 09:49 | <roc> | for example, people want to track the mouse cursor and show, say, the definition of the word that the mouse is hovering over |
| 09:49 | <annevk> | so if we let rangeFromPoint slide for the moment and only have caretRangeFromPoint, how would we define it? |
| 09:49 | <roc> | so if the cursor is in the padding of a block, you don't want to show anything |
| 09:49 | <othermaciej> | why isn't caretRangeFromPoint good enough? |
| 09:49 | <othermaciej> | presumbly you want to show only when you'd be between two chars of a word |
| 09:49 | <othermaciej> | not at the edge |
| 09:49 | <roc> | you don't want to return the character position for the start of the line |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | does XPatch context position count comment nodes and whitespace-only text nodes? |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | XPath |
| 09:50 | <roc> | suppose they want to show when the caret's at the start or end of a word |
| 09:51 | <roc> | or the mouse, I mean |
| 09:51 | <roc> | so the thing is, if the mouse is over the first character, you'd want to show the popup |
| 09:52 | <roc> | hmm |
| 09:52 | <roc> | I suppose if caretRangeFromPoint is defined so that when the mouse is in the padding, you get an empty range postiioned at the start of the line, but if it's over a character then you get the range containing the character |
| 09:52 | <roc> | then that case would be fine |
| 09:52 | <othermaciej> | annevk: well, I could look up what we do to implement hit testing to characters, but I am not sure if that will result in anything that gives a sane definition |
| 09:52 | <othermaciej> | roc: though, to be fair, I guess that would require you to slide partway over the first character to see it, which is annoying |
| 09:52 | <othermaciej> | you do want to be able to hit test to a glyph (and detect when you did not hit a glyph box at all) |
| 09:53 | <othermaciej> | yeah but that's not a caret range, so you'd have to change the name |
| 09:53 | <roc> | yeah |
| 09:53 | <othermaciej> | presumably for a multichar glyph you'd want to give the range of all contributing characters in such a case |
| 09:53 | <roc> | I think I agree that the "caret" range is going to be more useful than any alternative |
| 09:53 | <roc> | yeah |
| 09:53 | <othermaciej> | so maybe glyphBoxRangeFromPoint |
| 09:53 | <roc> | no |
| 09:54 | <roc> | that would be confusing when dealing with ligatures |
| 09:54 | <othermaciej> | hmm yeah |
| 09:54 | <othermaciej> | you'd want to decide that some way through the ligature the chars split |
| 09:54 | <roc> | yeah |
| 09:54 | <roc> | the browser has to do that when selecting text containing ligatures, anyway |
| 09:56 | <othermaciej> | typography is hard |
| 09:56 | <roc> | tell me about it |
| 09:56 | <othermaciej> | I just did |
| 09:56 | <othermaciej> | :-) |
| 09:58 | <roc> | maybe something like selectionRangeFromPoint |
| 09:58 | <othermaciej> | a point doesn't really define a selection |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | selectionRangeFromTwoPoints()? :-) |
| 09:59 | <roc> | where one end of the range is the nearest possible selection anchor "before" the given point, and the other end of the range is the nearest possible anchor "after" the given point |
| 09:59 | <othermaciej> | it is hard to think of a good name |
| 09:59 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: that would be redundant with getting the caret range for each point and using those as the endpoints |
| 09:59 | <annevk> | selectionRangeFromRect() |
| 09:59 | <roc> | I dunno |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | true |
| 09:59 | <roc> | argh no |
| 09:59 | annevk | was joking |
| 10:00 | <annevk> | othermaciej, it might help, dunno |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | roc, re: www-style, :) |
| 10:12 | <roc> | I have decided to be the bad cop |
| 10:12 | <roc> | on this issue |
| 10:12 | othermaciej | guesses what the issue is before checking www-style |
| 10:13 | <Hixie> | what's going on in www-style these days |
| 10:13 | othermaciej | guessed correctly |
| 10:13 | <annevk> | fonts and cssom-view rants |
| 10:13 | <othermaciej> | roc: I almost asked him if he could point to any font EULA that specifically allows use on the web in EOT form but not as regular OpenType, with specific wording |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | seems i haven't looked at www-style for a month now |
| 10:14 | <roc> | othermaciej: that's more jdaggett's angle. |
| 10:14 | <Hixie> | oh has paul still not replied to my e-mail? |
| 10:14 | <roc> | too subtle for me |
| 10:14 | zcorpan | hasn't looked at www-style for, uh, over a year probably |
| 10:14 | <othermaciej> | he says font vendors will sue you if you use WebFonts: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Apr/0372.html |
| 10:14 | hsivonen | agree's with howcome's latest in that thread |
| 10:15 | <hsivonen> | agrees |
| 10:15 | <hsivonen> | the linguistic quality of my IRC output has gotten terrible lately |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0263.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0274.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Dec/0084.html |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | hsivonen, it's not you, it's the medium |
| 10:17 | <roc> | font vendors are welcome to sue anyone they please |
| 10:17 | <roc> | as long as it's not our problem |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | jdaggett has a good point Re: Mac OS X fonts. |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | Mac OS X automates embedding the fonts Apple ships in PDFs all over. are those fonts fair game for CSS usage, too? |
| 10:17 | <roc> | whoever it was who pointed out that exactly the same issues apply to *images* was spot on |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | not just images |
| 10:18 | <roc> | indeed, before the rise of HTML there were a lot of competing hypermedia platforms which invested heavily in strict DRM |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | stylesheets too! |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | and html! |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | and scripts! |
| 10:18 | <hsivonen> | roc: it's this crazy idea that fonts, movies and music are holier than images and text |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | in fact, fonts have _LESS_ copyright protection than anything else! |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: bitmap fonts in the U.S. yes |
| 10:19 | <roc> | people went around saying that hypermedia can't be successful until we've solved the issues of making sure authors get paid |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: Adobe has been pretty good at casting outline fonts as software |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | font outlines aren't copyrightable. programs that define font hinting are, maybe. |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | i dunno if that's ever been tested though. |
| 10:20 | <Philip`> | roc: Does that mean we needs fonts that have embedded adverts? |
| 10:20 | <Philip`> | *need |
| 10:20 | <roc> | they also made consistency requirements, so there are never broken links |
| 10:20 | <othermaciej> | I'm once again thinking of proposing my own idea for a secure font format |
| 10:20 | <othermaciej> | OpenType-rot13 |
| 10:20 | <roc> | how's that different from EOT? |
| 10:20 | <othermaciej> | it would provide just as much security as EOT but it would be way easier to implement |
| 10:20 | <roc> | well yeah |
| 10:20 | <roc> | I think Paul might even argue that's actually good enough |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: fortunately, people are arguing the legal angle from the U.S. point of view |
| 10:21 | <othermaciej> | roc: I admire your assumption of relative good faith on his part |
| 10:21 | <roc> | the only requirement seems to be that you can't grab a URL from somewhere, download the font in your browser and drop it into your fonts folder |
| 10:21 | <Hixie> | yeah i have to say, i'm at least as cynical as maciej at this point |
| 10:21 | <roc> | nobody out-paranoids me! |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: over here, there's no exception for fonts, so per statute, the copyright situation of fonts is insane |
| 10:22 | <othermaciej> | I think Microsoft's main reason for pushing EOT is that they already have it implemented as a web font format |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: here the legal culture leaves lots of special cases undefined and relies on people having common sense |
| 10:22 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: ah |
| 10:22 | <roc> | but here there's nothing to lose from a good-faith assumption |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | for those who can read it, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008AprJun/0091.html has more information |
| 10:22 | <othermaciej> | Microsoft is a big fan of standardizing whatever they happen to have implemented already |
| 10:22 | <roc> | othermaciej: yeah |
| 10:22 | <othermaciej> | see OOXML |
| 10:22 | <Hixie> | the whole discussion is moot anyway |
| 10:23 | <roc> | hey man, Apple's a big fan of OOXML |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | everyone (other than microsoft) should just implement TTF and move on |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | and let IE linger in its obsolescence |
| 10:23 | <roc> | that's certainly what's going to happen |
| 10:23 | <othermaciej> | there's little chance of WebKit removing OpenType support |
| 10:23 | <othermaciej> | but we have gotten requests to also support EOT |
| 10:24 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: be strong! |
| 10:24 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: well, if some crazy bastard put it in an Acid test I might not say no |
| 10:24 | <Hixie> | hehe |
| 10:24 | <roc> | you need to be strong vs Hixie too |
| 10:25 | <Hixie> | i learnt a lot from acid3 |
| 10:25 | <Hixie> | sadly my job means that my learning experiences get splattered across the web and affect a lot of engineers |
| 10:25 | <othermaciej> | acid3 didn't have any feature tested that we were truly deeply opposed to |
| 10:26 | <Philip`> | Acid3 shows that browser vendors are easily manipulated into implementing whatever you want |
| 10:26 | <othermaciej> | though some would have been much more on the back burner otherwise (mainly svg animation and fancy svg font stuff) |
| 10:26 | <roc> | I have a linger resentment over SMIL |
| 10:26 | <roc> | but I'll get over it |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | Philip`: not really, i always got a majority agreement from the vendors before adding anything to the test |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | roc: yeah, one of the things i learnt is that i should not have pushed for 100 tests |
| 10:27 | <Hixie> | roc: when i ran out of thigns to test, i should have stopped, not gotten other people to submit their pet peeves |
| 10:27 | <othermaciej> | I think the third-party submissions should have been reviewed more carefully |
| 10:27 | <roc> | I learned that I should have submitted *my* pet peeves |
| 10:27 | <othermaciej> | some of the submitted tests were good |
| 10:27 | <othermaciej> | the svg ones were kinda crazy |
| 10:27 | <othermaciej> | even heycam's test which I respect the thoroughness of |
| 10:28 | <othermaciej> | I thought about submitting tests but I felt it would be a bit dodgy to do so as a browser vendor |
| 10:28 | <othermaciej> | (maybe unless webkit failed them too) |
| 10:30 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I wouldn't worry about the damaging splatters of your learning experiences (/mistakes) in Acid3 - they'll be dwarfed by the problems caused by HTML5 |
| 10:32 | <othermaciej> | Acid3 highlighted for me how much critical web application functionality lacks a proper spec |
| 10:32 | <othermaciej> | (many now in progress though) |
| 10:33 | <Hixie> | Philip`: oh i was thinking of html5 too when i said that |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | is Silverlight already in a standards pipeline at ECMA or somewhere? |
| 10:36 | <othermaciej> | not that I'm aware of |
| 10:36 | <othermaciej> | though Microsoft has let Novell clone it |
| 10:36 | <Hixie> | parts of it are already standardised |
| 10:36 | <Hixie> | dunno about the silverlight-specific APIs |
| 10:37 | <othermaciej> | C# and its standard library are standardized |
| 10:37 | <othermaciej> | well, insofar as an ECMA rubber stamp means anything |
| 10:39 | Hixie | throws his lot into the webfonts debate |
| 10:40 | Philip` | wonders if the criticisms of the OOXML-in-ECMA process apply at all to ECMAScript |
| 10:40 | <othermaciej> | ECMAScript is its own kind of hot mess |
| 10:40 | <othermaciej> | not a lotta rubber stamping happening though |
| 10:44 | <othermaciej> | ironically WebKit now has (I think) code to convert OpenType files to EOT to support OpenType WebFonts with GDI text |
| 10:44 | <Hixie> | that's fucked up |
| 10:44 | <othermaciej> | (since that is the only format that has a GDI API for in-memory activation) |
| 10:49 | <roc> | it is? |
| 10:49 | <roc> | bah |
| 10:49 | Philip` | got worried by how many people use @font-face, until realising that @font-face{src} was the interesting thing, and not many (~0.03%) use that |
| 10:50 | <Philip`> | (or at least use it in inline <style> in their HTML file) |
| 10:54 | <krijnh> | MikeSmith: is http://michaelwsmithfans.org/ yours? :) |
| 10:56 | <roc> | no |
| 10:56 | <roc> | I doubt it :-) |
| 10:56 | <MikeSmith> | no |
| 10:56 | <MikeSmith> | I have no fans |
| 10:57 | <MikeSmith> | I have only a hate club |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | Hixie, document.createElement("meta") is non-conforming?! |
| 10:57 | <krijnh> | :) |
| 10:57 | <Hixie> | annevk: the meta element that comes out of it is, yes, until it has an attribute set |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | that means it's impossible to insert elements without at some point being non-conforming |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | i'd like a way to be pedentically correct without having to resort to innerHTML tactics |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | you know, this is pretty insane. i give all my wireless devices static IPs on my network, and my list of (actively used) static IPs now has nine separate devices on it. |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | annevk: it doesn't matter if it's non-conforming while script is running |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | annevk: just like it doesn't matter if the document is non-conforming while the parser is still parsing the file |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | that sounds reasonable |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | wii, ps3, my three laptops, my girlfriend's laptop, my mac mini, my router, and my ipod |
| 11:01 | <Lachy> | Hixie, in 8.2.4 Tokenisation, the spec says "When a DOCTYPE token is created, its self-closing flag must be unset (its other state is that it be set), and its attributes list must be empty. Comment and character tokens have data." - I think that's supposed to say Start Tag token |
| 11:02 | <Lachy> | it's the end of the 3rd paragraph in that section. |
| 11:04 | <hsivonen> | speaking of Mac Mini, the rumors said there'd be a new one today. |
| 11:04 | <hsivonen> | is it really Apple announcement Tuesday today? |
| 11:04 | <othermaciej> | every Tuesday is Announcement Tuesday |
| 11:04 | <othermaciej> | well, almost every |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | Lachy: looks like you're right. can you send mail? |
| 11:09 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: new mac minis? just refreshes, or apple awesome? |
| 11:09 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the rumors did not say |
| 11:10 | hsivonen | wants iMac internals without the integrated display |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | the 2GB RAM cap on Mini sucks |
| 11:11 | <mpt> | Is it appropriate to have multiple adjacent <nav> elements? The spec's not clear about that |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | it seems to be allowed |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | <abbr title> or <abbr aria-describedby=foo> <abbr title id=foo> |
| 11:16 | <mpt> | hmm |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | i'm joking |
| 11:16 | <mpt> | In Firefox 3 <nav> is rendered as inline |
| 11:16 | <mpt> | oh well, back to <div> :-) |
| 11:17 | mpt | should have realized that earlier |
| 11:17 | <Hixie> | mpt: thought they'd fixed that |
| 11:17 | <Hixie> | did they only do <Section> or something? |
| 11:18 | <mpt> | (I mean, back to <nav><div>...</div><div>...</div></nav>, as opposed to <nav>...</nav><nav>...</nav>) |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | mpt, hmm, nav { display:block } ? |
| 11:18 | <mpt> | annevk, yeah, but we have can't-be-ignored text browser usage too |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | that should work fine in Firefox 3 / Opera 9.x / Safari 3.x |
| 11:18 | <mpt> | So Firefox's behavior was more of a cluestick for me, than an actual blocker |
| 11:20 | <mpt> | And then there's that pesky 4% of IE6 users |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | document.createElement('nav') |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | makes it work in Ie |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | IE, even |
| 11:20 | <Lachy> | Hixie, yeah, I'll send mail now |
| 11:20 | <mpt> | yeah, but I don't actually *need* <nav> for anything :-) |
| 11:20 | <mpt> | I was just using it because it was there |
| 11:20 | <hsivonen> | XPath is hard. Why am I not doing this in SAX/Java? |
| 11:21 | <Hixie> | Lachy: thanks! |
| 11:21 | <annevk> | mpt, now you're just making up random excuses :p |
| 11:21 | <mpt> | I need to use classes on them anyway, so <div class="foo"> is no worse than <nav class="foo">, and it works in more browsers, end of story |
| 11:23 | <Hixie> | the createElement hack is pretty freaky cool |
| 11:24 | <hsivonen> | what's the right way to check if the context node has following sibling elements or non-whitespace text nodes? |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | iterator |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | nextElementSibling doesn't actually barf if there's non whitespace text nodes |
| 11:25 | <hsivonen> | in XPath |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | dunno |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | #whatwg is the wrong place for such questions I'm afraid :) |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | following-sibling::node() seems to be it |
| 11:27 | <hsivonen> | for some weird reason following-sibling::* didn't work even for elements |
| 11:27 | <krijnh> | (A test for the IRC logs, like http://www.example.com/) |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | The coolest website is http://www.example.com/. I love it! |
| 11:28 | <krijnh> | :) |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | Do you know what the coolest website is (http://www.example.com/)? |
| 11:29 | <Dashiva> | hsivonen: odd, element should be default node type there... |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | In e-mails we write URLs like so: <http://www.example.com/>;. Does it work? |
| 11:29 | <Dashiva> | annevk: I prefer www.example.com myself |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | krijnh, I hope no fix is deployed yet because it's a big multifail :) |
| 11:30 | <krijnh> | Not yet |
| 11:30 | <krijnh> | (^|[\\s.:;?\\-\\]<\\(])(http://[-\\w;/?:@&=+$.!~*\'()%,#]+[\\w/])(?=$|[\\s.:;?\\-\\[\\]>\\)]) |
| 11:30 | <Dashiva> | Maybe he's bugtesting and not feature testing |
| 11:30 | <krijnh> | Damn nasty |
| 11:30 | <Dashiva> | My eyes |
| 11:31 | <hsivonen> | hrm. ::node() seems to select whitespace nodes, too |
| 11:31 | <Dashiva> | "A node test node() is true for any node of any type whatsoever." |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | I thought the XPath data model was supposed to omit whitespace-only nodes |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | ::following-sibling[node() != text()] |
| 11:33 | <annevk> | oh wait, whitespace |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | one would think that an XML-specific language made whitespace-only ignoring easy... |
| 11:35 | <krijnh> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080422#l-669 |
| 11:35 | <krijnh> | [link] or the plain uri? |
| 11:35 | <Hixie> | <link> didn't work |
| 11:35 | <Hixie> | i prefer the plain uri |
| 11:35 | <Hixie> | personally |
| 11:36 | <Dashiva> | I always figured xpath worked on a DOM, so the whitespace ignoring would take place during the parsing step instead |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | plain URI please |
| 11:36 | <krijnh> | Done |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | and you need to add > to the lits of characters |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | and < prolly |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | how can testing for following sibling presence be this hard? |
| 11:37 | <annevk> | also, some weird semi colon is added after the <> link |
| 11:37 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 11:37 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: what are you doing? |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: testing if a first table child of datagrid has following siblings |
| 11:37 | <krijnh> | That's weird, does work on http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/php/preg_replace_2.php |
| 11:38 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: in some schema language? |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: yes |
| 11:38 | <annevk> | krijnh, is it some htmlentities cleanup weirdness later? |
| 11:38 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: sorry to hear that |
| 11:38 | <annevk> | krijnh, or maybe the htmlentities happens first which is what messes it up? |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'm going to implement it in Java later anyway. This is supposed to be a rapid prototype |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | but XPath doesn't make this case exactly rapid |
| 11:39 | <krijnh> | Ah, doh |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | rapid, you say :-) |
| 11:39 | <Dashiva> | Rapid descent into frustration |
| 11:39 | <krijnh> | Yeah, it's first htmlspecialchared |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | I mean, you'd think XPath could express this sort of thing! |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | krijnh, probably better to reverse that order |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | hmm. perhaps I should check that the context node is the last child of its parent |
| 11:40 | <Dashiva> | Or next-to-last with whitespace following |
| 11:40 | <krijnh> | annevk: then <a href="foo"> gets htmlspecialchared |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | krijnh, oops, duh |
| 11:41 | <Dashiva> | krijnh: urlencode it first then :) |
| 11:41 | <krijnh> | You guys just shouldn't use < and > around your links :) |
| 11:42 | <krijnh> | Or just str_replace('></a>;', '</a>>') :> |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | or include end at & but not at & |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | s/include// |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | for the URI regexps |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | this might make it even more insane :) |
| 11:44 | <Dashiva> | How 'bout not inserting the URLs, but rather a placeholder, and doing a replace on the placeholders at the very end |
| 11:44 | <Hixie> | krijnh: while you're working on the logs, any chance i could get you to change the line counts on the front page to not count the lines that the log pages filter out? |
| 11:44 | <Hixie> | e.g. joins, parts |
| 11:46 | <krijnh> | I don't filter those on the homepage |
| 11:46 | <krijnh> | That's just a simple count on the array of all lines |
| 11:46 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 11:46 | <krijnh> | What a mess |
| 11:46 | <krijnh> | :D |
| 11:46 | <Hixie> | sometimes i see a log has a lot of lines and i excitingly go to see what was said and i just see two lines, log started, log ended. :-) |
| 11:46 | <Dashiva> | Just make the filtering be off by default, then people won't notice :) |
| 11:48 | <krijnh> | <http://www.example.com/>; works now |
| 11:50 | <zcorpan> | [http://www.example.com/] http://www.example.com/, {http://www.example.com/} |
| 11:51 | <zcorpan> | hmm opera includes } in the link |
| 11:51 | <krijnh> | What the |
| 11:53 | <jwalden> | by the way, so people know, I'm working on converting Mozilla's postMessage tests to work with an async postMessage, should that happen; it is an extremely painful process to do so |
| 11:53 | <jwalden> | converting http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvsblame.cgi?file=/mozilla/dom/tests/mochitest/whatwg/test_postMessage_origin.xhtml&rev=1.2&mark=412-432#388 took around three hours to do and get right, with multiply-nested setTimeouts in at least one place |
| 11:54 | <jwalden> | my conclusion is that sequential communication using postMessage is significantly harder when postMessage works async, as opposed to when it is sync |
| 11:55 | <Hixie> | jwalden :-/ |
| 11:55 | <Hixie> | er, with fewer spaces |
| 11:55 | <Hixie> | on the long run we really want a pipe system link my endpoint proposal |
| 11:55 | <Hixie> | that would make it much easier i imagine |
| 11:56 | <jwalden> | I don't know how common back-and-forth will be as opposed to one-shotters, but I don't think it'll be fun when it happens |
| 11:56 | <jwalden> | some of the tests Just Worked, but those were the ones that tested one thing in isolation |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | can Firefox still change? |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | for Firefox 3, that is |
| 12:02 | <roc> | probably |
| 12:02 | <krijnh> | Hixie: fixed |
| 12:02 | <Philip`> | Automated insertion of <abbr> is great when people use that kind of thing on blogs and it makes their XHTML examples print like <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XHTML">; where the uppercase bits are in <acronym>s (and styled to uppercase) |
| 12:02 | <krijnh> | I think |
| 12:03 | <Hixie> | krijnh: thanks! |
| 12:03 | <krijnh> | It's pretty slow though :/ |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | krijnh, could you also filter session start, session end and such? |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | krijnh, so that for effectively empty logs it says 0 rather than 4 |
| 12:04 | <Hixie> | hm, entities allow one to include control characters and permanently undefined unicode characters |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | there are raised issues about that |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | in particular the way entities are locked to UTF-16 in some implementations is interesting (and potentially troublesome) |
| 12:07 | <zcorpan> | what alt text should the randomly selected image on http://ln.hixie.ch/ have? :) same as it has on Flickr? |
| 12:07 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: alt="" since it's decorative and doesn't otherwise enhance the value of the page |
| 12:07 | <jwalden> | I have async implemented; the patch is a bit complicated due to the way you have to split computation and use to avoid timing issues, but it's not bad |
| 12:08 | <krijnh> | annevk: done |
| 12:08 | <jwalden> | updating the tests will easily eclipse the time needed to change the implementation |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | krijnh, it still reports 1 for some reason... |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | weird |
| 12:08 | <jwalden> | I'm guessing at least a factor of three |
| 12:08 | <krijnh> | No it doesn't :) |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | no some logs report -1 |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | :p |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | now* |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | i guess that's acceptable |
| 12:09 | <krijnh> | Yeah, that's only for 18 days |
| 12:09 | <jwalden> | right now I'm staring at http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/dom/tests/mochitest/dom-level0/test_setting_document.domain_idn.html?force=1 and writhing in pain |
| 12:09 | <jwalden> | sequential city, there |
| 12:10 | <krijnh> | {http://example.com/} |
| 12:11 | <krijnh> | { http://example.com/ } |
| 12:11 | <krijnh> | <-- brain boiled |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | http://sub1.exämple.test |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | krijnh: ^ doesn't work :-( |
| 12:12 | <annevk> | krijnh, the regexp is now failing everywhere :( |
| 12:12 | <krijnh> | :/ |
| 12:12 | <annevk> | "http://example.com/"; is another one |
| 12:14 | <Hixie> | krijnh: you now have plenty of cases to add to some smoketests :-) |
| 12:14 | <Philip`> | http://robert.accettura.com/blog/2008/04/15/shell-stats/ - auto-acronym failure |
| 12:15 | <Hixie> | do you think ben's recent e-mail is a request for someone to explain how we addressed that in wf2? |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | yes, and it also seems to be a request for XForms |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | Philip`, auto-acronym is a misfeature imo |
| 12:16 | <Hixie> | trying to work out if i should bother explaining wf2 in this case |
| 12:16 | <Hixie> | or let someone else do it |
| 12:17 | krijnh | needs an IRClogger5 |
| 12:17 | <Hixie> | ok bed time |
| 12:17 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 12:18 | <Philip`> | Is a required checkbox like on those forms with "I accept the terms and conditions that I didn't read: [x]" where you have to check it? |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | yes |
| 12:19 | <Philip`> | A helpful UA should check that box automatically |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | that depends on the user |
| 12:20 | <annevk> | i would rather it did not check it automatically |
| 12:20 | <Philip`> | The only thing you're ever going to do with the checkbox is check it, so the UA might as well save you the effort |
| 12:20 | Philip` | reads WF2 |
| 12:20 | <annevk> | the checkbox also serves as a reminder that you have to check something else |
| 12:21 | <Philip`> | Oh, it sounds more useful when you have >1 checkbox with the same name |
| 12:21 | <annevk> | if the ua has already checked it you will not get that reminder when you submit the form |
| 12:30 | Philip` | tries replying to explain what WF2 does |
| 12:47 | hsivonen | expects a bikeshed about labeled vs. labelled |
| 12:48 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, why do you expect that to become a bikeshed? |
| 12:49 | <hsivonen> | oh dear :-) |
| 12:49 | <Dashiva> | We got through referrer without too many paint marks, didn't we? |
| 12:50 | <hsivonen> | ARIA even has a note about it |
| 12:50 | <Philip`> | The more common usage is "bike shed", not "bikeshed" |
| 12:50 | <Philip`> | Sadly the OED has neither :-( |
| 12:51 | <Lachy> | I expect the <abbr> vs. <abbr title=""> to become a bikeshed (or bike shed to keep Philip` happy) |
| 12:55 | <Philip`> | That's easy to solve by just making <abbr> conforming, because it already exists and it's at least useful as a style hook :-) |
| 12:57 | Philip` | doesn't actually remember ever having seen a bike( )shed |
| 12:58 | <Lachy> | Philip`, exactly. It's for all those authors who want dotted borders rendered underneath all abbreviations in their page, without serving any other function :-) |
| 12:58 | <Philip`> | (I see bike racks everywhere, and sometimes covered ones, and one underground one, but that's all I can think of) |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Firefox and Opera don't do dotted underlines (or any other styling) on title-less abbr |
| 13:00 | <Philip`> | which is good, because otherwise it would confuse users into looking for tooltips |
| 13:00 | <Philip`> | and authors can add small-caps styling to make their acronyms look nice |
| 13:00 | <Lachy> | Philip`, maybe you have seen a bike shed, but because you can't see through walls, you didn't realise there were bikes inside. |
| 13:01 | <Lachy> | has that behaviour changed? I thought older versions of FF used to underline them anyway |
| 13:01 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I would hope most bikesheds have doors, in which case there's a non-negligible probability that looking at one will reveal the contents |
| 13:01 | <Lachy> | yeah, most sheds have doors. |
| 13:01 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Not sure - I'm testing FF2 |
| 13:02 | <Lachy> | When I was younger, our bikes were kept in a shed at home. |
| 13:02 | <Philip`> | Mine was kept in our garage |
| 13:02 | <Philip`> | Actually, it still is in there |
| 13:08 | <jwalden> | more on async postMessage, splitting up computations and object creation between at-time-postMessage-is-called and at-time-when-event-is-dispatched is a somewhat touchy business, in that there's a very specific way it has to be done to avoid time-of-check-to-time-of-use concerns |
| 13:09 | <jwalden> | gotta calculate the caller's origin at postMessage time, gotta compare the computed target origin against the target's origin at dispatch time, etc. |
| 13:10 | <jwalden> | I don't think you can just reuse generic async-event-dispatch code to implement this |
| 13:10 | <jwalden> | not safely, at least |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | Error: Required attributes missing on element script. |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | From line 19, column 3; to line 19, column 24 |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | esheet>↩ <script src=status.js></scri |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | Error: Required children missing from element table. |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | From line 48180, column 4; to line 48180, column 11 |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | </tr>↩ </table>↩ <! |
| 13:12 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen, Hixie: ^ |
| 13:12 | <zcorpan> | which children are missing from table? |
| 13:15 | <zcorpan> | (Total execution time 282728 milliseconds, with image report, without show source) |
| 13:17 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: are you validating the spec? |
| 13:18 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yeah, the whatwg version |
| 13:18 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I see only one message: legacy doctype |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: on validator.nu, not html5.validator.nu |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | oh |
| 13:20 | <zcorpan> | (i have 5 messages: text/html->html parser, doctype without SI, xhtml 1.0 schema, 2 errors) |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | it's indeed horribly slow |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | I think I should run it in a profiler locally |
| 13:21 | hsivonen | suspects Schematron |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan> | HTTP ERROR: 500 |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan> | Java heap space |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan> | RequestURI=/ |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan> | Caused by: |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan> | java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan> | (trying to validate again without image report) |
| 13:28 | mpt | scowls at elinks |
| 13:28 | <mpt> | elinks renders alt=" " as nothing, but alt="" as [IMG] |
| 13:29 | <Philip`> | Can you configure it to handle images differently? |
| 13:29 | <Philip`> | (I remember something like that in either Lynx or Links) |
| 13:29 | <Philip`> | (By the way, it's really very stupid to choose a name that's a homophone of a very similar project :-( ) |
| 13:31 | <mpt> | In Lynx you can type "*" to show links to all images |
| 13:31 | <mpt> | There doesn't seem to be an equivalent option in elinks |
| 13:32 | <Philip`> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(web_browser) - "The focus on intuitive usability makes it suitable as a web browser for low-end terminals in libraries, Internet cafes etc." - uh, if you're running an Internet cafe, your whole business revolves around giving people web access, so I'm not sure Links is the best idea |
| 13:33 | <mpt> | Lynx does the right thing with alt="" |
| 13:34 | mpt | wonders whether to s/alt=\"\"/alt=\" \"/g |
| 13:34 | <Philip`> | alt=" " is non-conforming HTML5 in almost all cases |
| 13:35 | <annevk> | it should be conforming for decorative images... |
| 13:36 | <mpt> | "Focus on intuitive usability"? Who writes that crud? |
| 13:36 | <Philip`> | Do any UAs treat <a href=...><img alt=" "> Text</a> differently from <a href=...><img alt=""> Text</a> ? |
| 13:37 | <Philip`> | Actually, I can't remember what I was thinking of in that case |
| 13:37 | <Philip`> | so I'm not sure why it's relevant to anything at all, so please ignore me |
| 13:37 | <mpt> | darn |
| 13:38 | <mpt> | (the answer was "yes, elinks does") |
| 13:39 | <Philip`> | Maybe I was thinking about whether e.g. some AT might render it as "Linked Image Text" vs "Text", because it makes them think it's a significant image |
| 13:39 | <Philip`> | but I don't think that question makes sense anyway |
| 13:39 | Philip` | gives up |
| 13:40 | <hsivonen> | whoa! Validator.nu just did something really weird and scary |
| 13:40 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: did it steal a candy? |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen> | it's feeding my browser what looks like binary junk |
| 13:41 | <zcorpan> | ouch |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen> | I hope it's just gzip going wrong and not a privileged memory dump |
| 13:41 | <Philip`> | Easy way to find out: try compressing the output |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | and if it compresses much, it's not gzip |
| 13:42 | <zcorpan> | can you take the junk through some content sniffing codepath and see if it's handled as something? |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | Or just search for your password strings in there |
| 13:43 | <hsivonen> | how do I get the original bytes out of Firefox? |
| 13:44 | Philip` | doesn't know if 'File / Save Page As / Web Page, HTML only' saves the raw data or tries fiddling with encodings |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | the schematron stuff I have for XHTML 1.0 is written really inefficiently |
| 13:44 | <Philip`> | but I'd tend to hope it's the raw data |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | going forward, I really need to get rid of the Schematron presets |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | and then isolate the custom schema stuff from what most people use |
| 13:46 | <mpt> | hsivonen, I think if Firefox had the original bytes, it wouldn't need to reload the page to change encodings |
| 13:47 | <mpt> | (which can be a dataloss problem) |
| 13:47 | <hsivonen> | custom schemas are a huge DoS attack vector |
| 13:47 | <zcorpan> | is "URL percentage escape non-unreserved characters in a string" defined somewhere? |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | $ file Downloads/validator.nu.html |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | Downloads/validator.nu.html: gzip compressed data, from FAT filesystem (MS-DOS, OS/2, NT) |
| 13:50 | <hsivonen> | I wonder why Firefox didn't decompress it |
| 13:52 | <Philip`> | Did it get sent with the right headers? |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I don't know how to tell after the fact |
| 13:56 | <zcorpan> | which unicode normalisation form should be used when percent-escaping URLs? |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Oh, good point |
| 13:59 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: no normalization |
| 13:59 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: but if you are minting a new IRI, you should use NFKC |
| 14:01 | <zcorpan> | i meant converting a random string to a percent-escaped URL |
| 14:01 | <zcorpan> | thanks |
| 14:01 | <hsivonen> | the Schematron that gets generated when Schematron is embedded in RELAX NG is so inefficient it isn't even funny |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | even profiling this is insanely slow |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | I don't need a profiler to tell me that Schematron sucks |
| 14:23 | <Philip`> | Would you get the same results from profiling a smaller test case? |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | not necessarily |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | still slow but not insanely so... |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | local dev version that is |
| 14:30 | <hsivonen> | the schematron bit that check for id and name sharing the same namespace are bad for perf |
| 14:34 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if Saxon has a main loop somewhere, so that I could insert a wall clock test against runaway Schematron |
| 14:35 | <hsivonen> | though checking system clock and accessing a ThreadLocal in a hotspot would suck, too |
| 14:37 | <Philip`> | Is it bad in HotSpot to have a separate alarm timer thread, which sleeps then interrupts the useful thread, and the useful thread checks for interruptions occasionally? |
| 14:38 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: killing a thread from the outside is dangerous in the general case |
| 14:39 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: and making the potential problem thread poll for a stop condition is problemtic as mentioned above |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | But interrupt should be safe, since that only does anything when there's an explicit check and it won't clobber internal locks or do whatever other bad things there are |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: to do it without a ThreadLocal, Saxon would need to pass the polling object around... |
| 14:41 | <Philip`> | I was thinking of Thread.interrupted() |
| 14:42 | <hsivonen> | oh. |
| 14:42 | <Philip`> | which doesn't need an object, and isn't explicitly ThreadLocal |
| 14:42 | hsivonen | goes read JavaDoc |
| 14:42 | <hsivonen> | argh. looks like about.validator.nu just died |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | wfm |
| 14:43 | <Philip`> | (No idea how it's implemented in JVMs, though) |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | oh wait, about.validator.nu doesn't |
| 14:45 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: indeed it looks like interrupt() could work |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | I wonder what's going on on the machine hosting about.validator.nu |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | the CPU is not pegged |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if something is clogging the network |
| 14:53 | <Philip`> | ping seems to work fine, with constant low latency |
| 15:18 | <hsivonen> | looks like someone from China is leeching stuff from the server using a really impolite bot |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | wow, i thought html5 said that tabindex=-1 means "focusable but not in tab order" |
| 15:23 | <annevk> | the only problem with impl is the handling of invalid values it seems |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | HTML5 needs fixing anyhow |
| 15:24 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: validating the spec as HTML 4 now works with reasonable performance |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the table error that zcorpan spotted is that the whole entity table is in thead |
| 15:30 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: wow sweet. Total execution time 6310 milliseconds. |
| 15:30 | <zcorpan> | 5365 milliseconds without image report |
| 15:32 | Philip` | wonders at the resolution of the clock used for those timings |
| 15:32 | <zcorpan> | pretty good compared to 282728 milliseconds and HTTP ERROR: 500, respectively :) |
| 15:33 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: well i counted to 6 for the first so it's accurate enough for me :) |
| 15:33 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: wouldn't badness happen if the thread was blocking on IO when a watchdog interrupted it? |
| 15:41 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: The blocking method would clean up after itself and throw an InterruptedException, and the caller should be expecting that exception and so nothing bad will happen |
| 15:42 | <Philip`> | (assuming the blocking method is interruptible (and declares it throws InterruptedException), which is hopefully the case, because otherwise it'd get messier) |
| 15:46 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: it still seems like a bad idea to interrupt write to the ServletOutputStream |
| 15:47 | <hsivonen> | because if it breaks, the user will not get any feedback |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | Oh, if that's what you mean by badness then it does sound like badness |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | (I was thinking more of the deadlock-the-entire-VM badness, like in Thread.destroy()) |
| 15:51 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I suppose I could wrap the ServletOutputStream in an object that raises a "don't inturrupt right now" flag when in servlet IO |
| 15:51 | <Philip`> | That sounds potentially delicate |
| 15:51 | <hsivonen> | the other potential problem is avoiding putting Commons HttpClient in a bad state |
| 16:16 | <annevk> | in case it was missed somehow: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/04/19/Ingrates#c1208838277 |
| 16:35 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I think that's different from general distributed extensibility. |
| 16:35 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it's just about using HTML to serve as an indirection mechanism to get a less pretty or less stable URI |
| 16:36 | <hsivonen> | seems like a case for registering a rel value on the wiki |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | You lost me. |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | :) |
| 16:37 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Re: what markp referred to Sam referring |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | what does it have to do with URIs though? |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | (rel values can be registered on a wiki) |
| 16:50 | <hsivonen> | hmm am I misunderstanding the whole issue? |
| 16:51 | <hsivonen> | X-XRDS-Location is an URI autodiscovery mechanism, no? |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | just like feed autodiscovery, openid and pingback |
| 16:53 | <annevk> | Oh yes. The discussion is whether <meta http-equiv> shoud be extensible or not and Sam Ruby points to data- attributes as the supposedly provided alternative to confuse matters or something... |
| 16:54 | <annevk> | Well, "discussion" |
| 16:56 | <Lachy> | which thread are you referring to? |
| 16:57 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: the one anne linked above |
| 16:57 | <hsivonen> | http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/04/19/Ingrates |
| 16:59 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: would I be crazy if I managed "don't kill thread" flags around IO and then used the dangerous thread stopping mechanism when the flag isn't set? |
| 17:02 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, ok. I missed that earlier since I wasn't in the channel |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | btw, it's almost certain I get a lightning talk spot at XTech on HTML 5 |
| 17:02 | <annevk> | if people have some input for that let me know |
| 17:03 | <hsivonen> | annevk: did you see my three points? |
| 17:07 | <hsivonen> | oops. ten points |
| 17:07 | <hsivonen> | I wonder why I typed "three" |
| 17:12 | <hsivonen> | http://pastebin.ca/992541 |
| 17:47 | <gsnedders> | Do you think someone should go and help cwilso find his keys? |
| 19:34 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Hmm, that sounds a little bit crazy if it's using Thread.interrupt, since the interrupt mechanism isn't really meant to work that way |
| 19:35 | <Philip`> | (Not that I actually have any experience or knowledge in this area, other than attending some lectures and reading the documentation a bit, so I could be misrepresenting situations) |
| 19:36 | <Philip`> | I can't think of a better way to do it, though |
| 19:39 | <Philip`> | (at least not without having access to e.g. an object with a volatile boolean youGotInterrupted field which can be polled) |
| 20:05 | <blooberry> | hixie: yt? |
| 20:31 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I was thinking about using Thread.stop() |
| 20:31 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: as far as I can tell, the danger of Thread.stop() is that introducing an unexpected exception may leave objects that are shared between threads in an inconsistent state, because locks were opened and cleanup code didn't run |
| 20:32 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Oh, Thread.stop is evil and should never be used, from what I've heard |
| 20:32 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: so if I make sure that I never call Thread.stop() when execution is in a shared object or call it only on lockless read-only shared objects, what's the harm? |
| 20:32 | <Philip`> | It can do things like stop the thread while it's in the middle of a GC operation, and not release the locks, and deadlock the whole VM |
| 20:33 | <hsivonen> | ah. I didn't know it can break GC |
| 20:33 | mpt | wonders if having two <footer>s is appropriate |
| 20:33 | <hsivonen> | isn't it kinda silly that the VM lets you break GC? shouldn't the VM be able to defer Thread.stop() until GC isn't active? |
| 20:34 | <Philip`> | Thread.interrupt is safe because it works like proper Java exceptions, but Thread.stop just makes everything abort uncleanly |
| 20:36 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: documentation says the locks are released as ThreadDeath propagates through the stack. |
| 20:36 | <Philip`> | Oh, indeed, I'm mixing things up with Thread.suspend |
| 20:36 | <Philip`> | (looking at http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/misc/threadPrimitiveDeprecation.html ) |
| 20:37 | <Philip`> | and suspend seems to be the one that causes nasty interactions with GC and stuff |
| 20:37 | <Philip`> | (unless I'm still remembering things wrong and/or making things up) |
| 20:38 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: that's the document I'm reading. as far as I can tell, the approach I outlined addresses the issues recounted in that document |
| 20:41 | <hsivonen> | ouch. I just realized that log4j is synchronized IO that is sprinkled around |
| 20:41 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: It sounds like you'd have to make sure Thread.stop isn't called at any time while you're executing methods in objects that are shared between threads (else they might get stuck in an inconsistent state) |
| 20:42 | <Philip`> | and I'd guess there's quite a lot of shared objects being accessed via libraries |
| 20:42 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: unless the shared object is safe for concurrent reads by having immutable internal state, right? |
| 20:43 | <Philip`> | If the objects aren't modified, it sounds like that'd probably be alright |
| 20:43 | <hsivonen> | what library entry points do I have except servlet output, log4j, and http input? |
| 20:44 | <hsivonen> | assuming that I replace JDK 1.1 Hashtable and friends in oNVDL with copies grabbed from Harmony and remove the locks |
| 20:44 | <Philip`> | I imagine all the Java classes |
| 20:44 | <Philip`> | Presumably there's all sorts of things like String.intern that share stuff between threads |
| 20:44 | <hsivonen> | ah right |
| 20:44 | <hsivonen> | there goes my cunning plan |
| 20:45 | hsivonen | forgot about String.intern() |
| 20:45 | <Philip`> | I still have no practical knowledge or experience of anything to do with this, but it just looks like a kind of dodgy thing to do, particularly since it's been deprecated since 1995 :-) |
| 20:47 | <hsivonen> | well, the documentation suggested that in special apps it could make sense when being careful, but String.intern() makes being careful too hard |
| 20:48 | <hsivonen> | for example, Java 1.2 Collections are supposed to be safe for lockless concurrent reads, so they wouldn't have been a problem |
| 20:48 | <Philip`> | In almost any practical code it seems impossible to be careful enough, since you can't possibly check what all the libraries are doing and what assumptions they're making |
| 20:49 | <Philip`> | and it's not something you can test for, since the errors will only happen on one in 10^n occasions and will be impossible to debug |
| 20:51 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: it's not impossible to consider all the code you don't see as dangerous edges, search all the code you do see for synchronized and assumed that promises about thread safety without using synchonized are clue-based and true |
| 20:51 | <hsivonen> | but the problem is that String.intern() is a dangerous edge that is too pervasive to protect on every call site |
| 20:52 | <hsivonen> | the IO edges would have been reasonably protectable |
| 20:52 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: That would be possible but it sounds insufficiently paranoid, and I always get scared when doing anything non-trivial with concurrency because it'll probably go wrong; but maybe that's just me :-) |
| 20:53 | <hsivonen> | :-) |
| 20:53 | <hsivonen> | it seems to me that even with interrupt(), I'd have to manually protect output generation |
| 20:54 | <Philip`> | (I also have no idea how Thread.stop interacts with Java's consistency guarantees - it seems quite possible that it'd try to stop the thread in the middle of a code block that has been reordered by the optimiser, so the execution won't even correspond to the source code) |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | of course, all this could be solved by eliminating Schematron |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | thereby making Validator.nu less generic |
| 21:01 | <hsivonen> | or if someone wrote a zealously streaming Schematron implementation--possibly rejecting schemas that don't translate to reasonably streamable things |
| 21:41 | <Philip`> | "It should show up under http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/cgi/issues.cgi/folder/widgets-tabindex once Hixie has filed the email." - plus up to 24 hours for Hixie's database to get updated, plus up to 24 hours for my cached copy to expire - it's kind of sad that it takes half a second to transmit email anywhere in the world, but two days for my software to notice :-( |
| 21:42 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 21:55 | <Hixie> | hahaha |
| 21:57 | <Hixie> | dude, krijnh, i'm so sorry about your experience with the csswg |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | man that's fucked up |
| 21:58 | <gavin_> | ? |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | the csswg resolved to log their channel, so he set up his system to start logging it, and they got annoyed that it was being logged |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | "we resolve to be public... but not if it means people can see what we wrote" |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | way to build a community! |
| 22:01 | <gavin_> | ah, heh |
| 22:02 | <othermaciej> | do they want the ability to pre-censor the logs or something? |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | # [13:57] <krijnh> (In case anybody missed it, anne asked me to log this channel as well, on http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/ ) |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | # [13:57] <Bert> Yes, I noticed. I will be careful when I say something. Or I may leave completely, not sure yet. |
| 22:03 | <othermaciej> | oh, Bert was against the logging in the first place |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | 14:01 < glazou> krijnh: I want the WG to agree on this logging |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | 14:02 < glazou> krijnh: anne never mentioned logging outside of w3c |
| 22:05 | <Philip`> | The problem with public logging of IRC is that it allows discussions like this one to come into existence |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | 14:12 < glazou> a 3rd party then controls the log, it's a matter of trust, confidence, IPR |
| 22:06 | <Philip`> | The W3C is a 3rd party in relation to me |
| 22:06 | <Philip`> | and I don't particularly trust them to never edit the logs |
| 22:07 | <Lachy> | wow, that's just crazy. The W3C should be logging all channels, even if some of them aren't public |
| 22:07 | <takkaria> | it's already a public channel, which is what I don't understand |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | given that the w3c once censored me, and krijnh has never censored me, i trust krijnh a whole heck of a lot more than the w3c |
| 22:08 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: what did they censor? |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Nov/0104.html |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | i rearchived that post here: http://damowmow.com/playground/archives/reply-to-dean-edridge.html |
| 22:10 | <Philip`> | The only sure thing you can trust is apathy, so make sure all logs and archives are held by someone who's never going to care enough to alter them |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | annevk, annevk, annevk. you should have posted your e-mail to the public list! |
| 22:30 | jgraham_ | is somewhat bemused that "public" seems so hard to understand |
| 22:33 | <Dashiva> | jgraham: It's easy to understand, it's just easy to redefine too :P |
| 22:34 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Beaches are public areas, but I imagine most people wouldn't like someone continually taking photos of them while they're there and sticking them all up on a wall |
| 22:35 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: Well, the beach goers didn't resolve to have their beach going be an open activity, the state did |
| 22:37 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: The beachgoers resolved in the morning that they'd like to go to the beach today, knowing that that would entail being in a public space |
| 22:39 | <Dashiva> | A false choice, as all beaches were made open against their will |
| 22:40 | <roc> | originally all beaches were private property that was then confiscated by the state? interesting |
| 22:43 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: There are plenty of non-public places the people could have gone, but they chose to go to a public one instead under reasonable expectations of publicness (e.g. they expect strangers might come up and say hello, but don't expect everything they say to be recorded and published for eternity) |
| 22:43 | <Philip`> | So, uh, I think beaches are public IRC channels in this analogy, rather than being all IRC channels |
| 22:53 | <jgraham_> | Philip`: I don't think that's a particularly good analogy. It's like having a public meeting any being annoyed if someone records it |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | actually it's like being annoyed at the google street view van taking a picture of you |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | which plenty of people are |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | but they're wrong to be :-) |
| 22:54 | <jgraham_> | The objections make no sense because anyone can be privately logging the channel and no one would be any the wiser |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | yup, as i've been doing for years now |
| 22:54 | <jgraham_> | If they need to have secret discussions they should do so elsewhere |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | like #css-secret |
| 22:54 | <jgraham_> | (or make the channel private again) |
| 22:55 | <Philip`> | #css-secret-treehouse |
| 22:58 | <Philip`> | jgraham_: It's like having a public meeting and being annoyed if someone releases a recording that loses all the subtleties of context so things can get misinterpreted easily, instead of waiting for the official minutes which everyone present can agree are representative of the meeting |
| 22:58 | <jgraham_> | Philip`: Not at all. The only context that's lost is the realtime nature. |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | jgraham_: That context is often significant |
| 22:59 | <jgraham_> | If you recorded a physical meeting there would be information loss from body language, etc. |
| 22:59 | <jgraham_> | (assuming audio onlly recording) |
| 23:00 | <Philip`> | e.g. references to current mailing list activity, or to conversations in other IRC channels, would no longer make sense when taken out of the temporal context |
| 23:00 | <jgraham_> | Philip`: I haven't found it to be a problem with the logged channels |
| 23:00 | <Philip`> | Oh, okay then |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | i agree that it would be like having a public meeting and being annoyed if someone releases an audio or video recording of it |
| 23:01 | <Dashiva> | People have been taking full advantage of #whatwg being logged, and we aren't objecting, are we? |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | and i think it's dumb to be scared of that |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | though many people are |
| 23:02 | <jgraham_> | Dashiva: Quite. |
| 23:02 | <Dashiva> | The ACM put pictures of me playing vocalist on the internet, but they removed the context of what song I'm singing, so I just look silly. |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | we look silly a lot in the #whatwg archives :-D |
| 23:03 | <Dashiva> | Indeed |
| 23:03 | <Dashiva> | Say Hixie, do you still play lggwg? |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | haven't for a while |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | waiting for the next version |
| 23:03 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: We aren't objecting, but maybe we should be, since experience shows that people get upset/annoyed/etc by things in the logs that wouldn't have been a problem if those people were part of the conversation |
| 23:04 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: It's a minor inconvenience compared to the improved communication |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | Philip`: those people find things to be annoyed at whatever we do |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | Philip`: we shouldn't optimise for them |
| 23:04 | jgraham_ | notes that Google suggests lggwg might be a misspelling of "logging" |
| 23:05 | <jgraham_> | Philip`: I would be opposed to the logs being removed |
| 23:05 | <Philip`> | I suppose I don't notice how useful the logs are for communication since I'm connected constantly anyway |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 23:05 | <jgraham_> | they have good cost/value |
| 23:05 | <Dashiva> | Yeah, that sounds likely |
| 23:05 | <Philip`> | (Irssi uptime: 186d 6h 31m 50s, yay) |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | (hah @ lggwg/logging) |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | my uptime is 4 days, but only because someone cut through the trondheim powerlines 5 days ago |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | killed power to half hte city or something |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | even the traffic lifghts were out |
| 23:06 | <gavin_> | our shell server was rebooted 13 days ago :( |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | apparently that delayed the repair people from going to fix it |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | as they were stuck in traffic |
| 23:07 | <gavin_> | (for kernel updates) |
| 23:08 | <Philip`> | (My server is sufficiently old that the recentish Linux root exploit, introduced in 2.6.17, didn't affect it at all, so I didn't have to reboot for that) |
| 23:09 | <Dashiva> | Security through obsoletedness |
| 23:09 | <Philip`> | (Please don't tell me about any other root exploits that are in 2.6.11, because I'll have to ignore you) |
| 23:10 | <Lachy> | it would be good if systems could be updated without restarting ever |
| 23:11 | <Philip`> | What would you do when there's a bug in the live update code? |
| 23:11 | <Dashiva> | Overwrite it in place |
| 23:12 | <Lachy> | start up a new process, kill the live updater, overwrite the live updater, restart the updater, kill the new process from before and cleanup |
| 23:13 | <Lachy> | basically, any individual component should be able to be killed, updated and restarted without restarting the entire system |
| 23:13 | <Philip`> | How do you overwrite the live updater, when the live updater is the thing that overwrites files with their updated versions? |
| 23:14 | <Philip`> | ...and when the live updater is buggy, hence the need to update it |
| 23:14 | <Philip`> | (where 'buggy' means 'doesn't work') |
| 23:14 | <Dashiva> | What if there were two processes, one kickstarting the other to overwrite itself and then restart it? |
| 23:14 | <Lachy> | I already answered that. You start a seperate updater program specifically for updating the main live updater |
| 23:14 | <jgraham_> | You download new code that implements a new live updater and uses it to replace to old live updater with itself |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | If you split things into restartable components, how do you make a component restart without losing all the data contained within that component? |
| 23:15 | <Lachy> | Philip`, magic |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | (particularly if e.g. its internal data structures have been redesigned) |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | back in the old days, there were computers that could have their motherboards updated without rebooting |
| 23:16 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Magic is merely sufficiently advanced technology, so you should still be able to explain it :-p |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | Philip`: that's not what clarke said! |
| 23:16 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: IBM mainframe programmers don't write bugs |
| 23:17 | <jgraham_> | I was under the general impression that lisp proponents cited the ability to update running code in place as one of the big lisp advantages |
| 23:17 | <Philip`> | Hixie: You can still do that in modern computers, if you have sufficient money |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | Philip`: he didn't say magic was technology, he said sufficiently advanced technology was indistinguishable from magic |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | Philip`: yeah, haven't heard of it recently though |
| 23:17 | <Lachy> | Philip`, there are live update programs that update themselves already. that particular problem is already solved |
| 23:17 | <Philip`> | Hixie: If two things are indistinguishable, you might as well say they're the same thing |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | Philip`: they could be indistinguishable because of insufficient precision in the measuring instrument |
| 23:18 | <Lachy> | e.g. the Apple Software Updater and Norton Anti-virus Live Update |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | all updaters pretty much support that |
| 23:19 | <Philip`> | I have a C++ wxWidgets GUI application which was kind of painful to compile/link/run/test, so I've rewritten lots of the GUI stuff into JS, and it automatically reloads the code at runtime when you change it, which is really a much nicer way of developing GUI applications |
| 23:19 | <hsivonen> | even Validator.nu build.py now selfupdates and execs its new self over its old self |
| 23:20 | <Philip`> | but that just throws away all the GUI state when it reloads, which is sometimes a bit of a pain |
| 23:20 | <Lachy> | Philip`, remembering previous states from before the update is also a solved problem |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 23:21 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Not when the data structures storing the state have changed incompatibly |
| 23:21 | <Lachy> | Just record sufficient information to disk before closing, and when restarting the updated app, run a conversion program to convert the older data to a new format if necessary and reload |
| 23:21 | <Lachy> | Philip`, changes can be made incrementally to avoid having to throw it all away and start again |
| 23:24 | <Philip`> | For an OS kernel, it's hard enough to make suspend-to-RAM work reliably, so I don't hold out much hope for being able to suspend and then rewrite all the data into a new format and then resume a new kernel version :-( |
| 23:25 | <Philip`> | (Hmm, lots of bugs - I shouldn't have left my window open) |
| 23:26 | <Philip`> | (I hate things that fly at me in bed :-( ) |
| 23:26 | <Dashiva> | Make sure you make testcases for each one |
| 23:28 | <Lachy> | Philip`, the kernel would be written by an infallible intelliegent designer so that it is perfect just the way it is. It never needs updating! |
| 23:28 | <Philip`> | I should employ one, and then I can say it WORKSFORME |
| 23:30 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: That's why intelligent sort is so awesome |
| 23:31 | <Lachy> | what's intelligent sort? |
| 23:31 | <Lachy> | is that like quick sort? |
| 23:31 | <Philip`> | Is it like bogosort? |
| 23:32 | <Philip`> | The easy way to sort a list of integers is to redefine the order relation so that all integers are equivalent and therefore all lists of integers are already sorted |
| 23:37 | <Lachy> | Quantum Bogosort is better |
| 23:39 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/intelligentdesignsort.html |
| 23:41 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, you are Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed in here! ;-) |
| 23:42 | <Lachy> | intelligent sort breaks the 2nd law of bogodynamics! |
| 23:42 | <Philip`> | The problem with the theory of sorting is that it contradicts the second law of thermodynamics - an ordered list has lower entropy than an unordered list, and scientists all agree that the laws of thermodynamics are inviolable, so clearly it is not possible to sort a list |
| 23:42 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: It only seems violated to our imperfect minds |
| 23:50 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, intelligent sort would mean that it's impossible to ever generate a random number, since the intelligent sorter is always sorting. So the next number in sequence is always predetermined, even if we primitive humans fail to understand how |
| 23:51 | <annevk> | Hixie, I'm still somewhat confused with the process / technical distinction and get flamed enough as it is... |
| 23:53 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: Wonderful, isn't it? |
| 23:54 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, indeed. |
| 23:57 | Lachy | goes to join the church of numerology and spread the mathematics of the divine academic |
| 23:59 | <Dashiva> | Al'Gebra |
| 23:59 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I don't think numerology has much to do with maths |
| 23:59 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Is he a relation of Al-Khwārizmī? |