| 01:19 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: editorial - |
| 01:19 | <MikeSmith> | "The reversed attribute is a boolean attribute. If present, it indicates that the list is an ascending list. If the attribute is present, the list is a descending list." |
| 01:20 | <MikeSmith> | 2nd sentence should start "If absent," |
| 01:52 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, the algorithm for determining what an object element represents has a requirement to check the value of a "classid" attribute |
| 01:52 | <MikeSmith> | but nowhere is such an attribute defined |
| 01:53 | <MikeSmith> | I guess it's meant to be a content attribute |
| 01:53 | <MikeSmith> | but it's not in the content model for the object element |
| 01:54 | <Philip`> | The content model only lists conforming attributes, and classid is non-conforming |
| 01:54 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: this is some MS proprietary attribute? |
| 01:55 | <Philip`> | so it's the same as how e.g. <isindex> is used in the parsing algorithm, but is not defined anywhere |
| 01:55 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 01:55 | <Dashiva> | Oh boy, more alt fun |
| 01:57 | <Dashiva> | If the designers of these tools cannot at this time |
| 01:57 | <Dashiva> | make their tools ATAG-compliant |
| 01:57 | <MikeSmith> | seems like for those kinds of cases, to avoid confusion (mine), the spec should explicitly mention that those are things that are not conformant for authoring purposes and so not documented in the spec |
| 01:57 | <Dashiva> | That line is such a wonderful thing |
| 01:57 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: I think it's mostly used for ActiveX GUIDs, but I can see some people suggesting things like classid="java:Example.class" too but I don't know if that's implemented anywhere |
| 01:58 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: How you can document something to say that it's not documented in the spec? :-p |
| 01:58 | <MikeSmith> | heh, true I suppose |
| 01:59 | <hsivonen> | I misread the commit log and thought Hixie made classid conforming :-( |
| 01:59 | <MikeSmith> | I think it would be appropriate for all instances of those kinds of things to be enclosed in <blink> tags |
| 01:59 | <hsivonen> | I think making classid non-conforming at this time does not make sense, even though it is product-specific |
| 02:00 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: I agree it'd be nice to be explicit when things mentioned in the spec are non-conforming, because otherwise it's not at all clear that the spec author didn't just forget to add that attribute to the list |
| 02:00 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: exactly |
| 02:01 | <hsivonen> | also, to me it would make sense for non-IE browsers to map the Flash classid to an NPAPI Flash plug-in, etc. |
| 02:04 | <csarven> | re: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-global.html#embedding "So here we're saying that microformats shouldn't use this... is that what we want?" -- I suppose, but, I don't believe microformats is particularly interested in "Embedding custom non-visible data". One of its main goals is to mark "visible" data. |
| 02:04 | <csarven> | I don't know who wrote that or if there is a backlog for it |
| 02:05 | <Philip`> | csarven: Hixie wrote it |
| 02:14 | <csarven> | microformats is still open to finding a better way to do datatime-design-pattern. For a second there I thought data-* could assist that but realised it is probably not the right fit. |
| 02:14 | <csarven> | "User agents must not derive any implementation behavior from these attributes or values. Specifications intended for user agents must not define these attributes to have any meaningful values." -- I suppose this is to prevent authors from creating custom markup and relying on some UA behaviour. |
| 02:16 | <takkaria> | csarven: datetime-design-pattern is solved with <time>, no? |
| 02:16 | <csarven> | I don't know. Can you give me an example using <time>? |
| 02:18 | <csarven> | takkaria I see. |
| 02:18 | <takkaria> | csarven: <time datetime="2007-08-20T23:30Z">20 Aug</time> |
| 02:19 | <csarven> | Certainly. |
| 02:20 | <csarven> | As far as I can tell. The existing <abbr> approach would probably need to me replaced with <time> |
| 02:20 | <takkaria> | I believe that was one of the reasons <time> was invented |
| 02:22 | <Philip`> | As far as I'm aware, that was the only reason <time> exists |
| 02:23 | <csarven> | Then I'm not sure if data-* would at all be a use to microformats. |
| 02:24 | <Philip`> | If there was something equivalent to data-* but without the 'implementations must ignore these attributes' requirement, would that be useful to microformats? |
| 02:29 | <annevk> | csarven, I suggested to Hixie that data-* must not be used by UAs |
| 02:29 | <annevk> | csarven, this excludes UA extensions such as versioning and also excludes microformats |
| 02:29 | <annevk> | csarven, if microformats feel they need some attribute other than what they already got (such as a solution for time -> <time>) I think they can easily negotiate that with the HTML WG |
| 02:30 | <csarven> | Philip` Not necessarily because of the "visible" bit. data-* almost falls on meta-data. |
| 02:30 | <csarven> | annevk Right on. |
| 02:30 | <csarven> | <time> is perfect IMHO |
| 02:31 | <annevk> | Jacques Distler: "HTML5lib sucks." :-( |
| 02:32 | <annevk> | Oh, he's complaining about performance... |
| 02:33 | <annevk> | I think that's more or less a non-goal at this point. We need bindings to a C implementation to get that going strong... |
| 02:33 | annevk | adds a comment |
| 02:33 | <smedero> | Anne: are you talking about this post? http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001689.html |
| 02:36 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 04:12 | <andersca> | Hixie: what was the rationale for making the dynamic entries ordered? |
| 04:28 | <hsivonen> | do C extensions to Ruby have to use UTF-8? |
| 04:29 | <hsivonen> | C extensions to Python should use UTF-16 or UTF-32, right? |
| 04:29 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I think that's right (the python bit) |
| 04:30 | <jgraham> | http://docs.python.org/api/unicodeObjects.html |
| 04:30 | <hsivonen> | the difficult bit with recasting the V.nu tokenizer into UTF-8 C would be that REPLACEMENT CHARACTER would take more space than \0 and the tokenizer expects them to fit into the same space |
| 04:31 | <jgraham> | If that's the only difficult bit it doesn't sound too bad |
| 04:31 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 04:37 | <takkaria> | I should mention I'm being paid to work on a C html5 parser this summer |
| 04:37 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: what's your implementation strategy? from scratch? adapting an existing implementation? |
| 04:39 | <jgraham> | takkaria: I mentioned that on Jacques' blog |
| 04:39 | <jgraham> | Is it a Summer of Code thing? |
| 04:39 | <jgraham> | IIRC you are using lxml compatible interfaces? |
| 04:39 | <jgraham> | sorry libxml2 |
| 04:43 | <takkaria> | yes, summer of code |
| 04:44 | <takkaria> | and there will be a libxml binding, yes |
| 04:44 | <takkaria> | hsivonen: well, jmb (on this channel) has started, so it's not entirely from scratch |
| 05:09 | <Hixie> | to anyone who sent feedback over the past few days, please send mail |
| 05:10 | <Hixie> | andersca: well it has to have some stable order for enumeration |
| 05:10 | <Hixie> | andersca: apart from that, i don't really cre |
| 05:10 | <andersca> | Hixie: OK |
| 07:18 | Hixie | commits <iframe seamless> |
| 07:21 | <hober> | Hixie: formatting error |
| 07:21 | <hober> | I see "he seamless/code> attr..." |
| 07:21 | <Hixie> | yeah i'm on it |
| 07:25 | <Hixie> | ok fixed those |
| 07:25 | <Hixie> | that was a mess :-) |
| 07:25 | <Hixie> | ok let's see |
| 07:26 | <Hixie> | i guess sandbox="" is next |
| 07:38 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: small but important change: |
| 07:38 | <MikeSmith> | "The reversed attribute is a boolean attribute. If present, it indicates that the list is an ascending list. If the attribute is present, the list is a descending list." |
| 07:38 | <MikeSmith> | 2nd sentence should start "If absent," |
| 07:38 | <MikeSmith> | can send you mail about it if you want |
| 07:40 | <Hixie> | actually i'm between edits right now so i can change it |
| 07:40 | <Hixie> | but in general e-mail is definitely better |
| 07:40 | <Lachy> | Hixie, when the src of a seamless iframe is changed to a document that is not the same origin (either via the dom or <a href=... target=the-iframe>), is that expected to change from a seamless frame to a normal iframe? |
| 07:53 | <jwalden_> | http://pastebin.mozilla.org/436577 |
| 07:53 | <jwalden_> | I'm not getting a message saying it'll appear after moderation or anything like that |
| 07:53 | <jwalden_> | so I don't know what's up with it |
| 07:54 | <jwalden_> | just redirects back to the main blog page |
| 07:56 | Hixie | tries to comment too |
| 07:57 | <Hixie> | wfm |
| 07:58 | <Hixie> | (i used safari 3) |
| 07:58 | <Hixie> | (trunk |
| 07:58 | <Hixie> | ) |
| 07:59 | <Hixie> | one day i'll stop working on browsers and then i'll have to pick a preferred browser that i use everywhere, instead of switching browsers every 2 minutes... |
| 08:00 | <gavin_> | when you have to do something on the web that's not testing browsers, do you really just randomly pick one? |
| 08:01 | <gavin_> | you don't care about any of the stuff that browsers keep track of for you? |
| 08:04 | <Hixie> | gavin_: i use multiple machines and i nuke my profiles regularly, so no |
| 08:08 | <Hixie> | jwalden: wfm using safari trunk; might be a browser problem. |
| 08:08 | <Hixie> | jwalden: good comment btw |
| 08:08 | <jwalden> | Firefox 2? that would be pernicious |
| 08:08 | <Hixie> | oh i assumed you were using ff trunk |
| 08:08 | jwalden | tries Safari 3.latest |
| 08:08 | <Hixie> | afk, brb |
| 08:08 | <jwalden> | I'm lame |
| 08:13 | <jwalden> | would have been nice for MSFT to point out their implementation isn't up to latest spec, but I'm guessing that's just their paranoia about saying what they're doing before they do it :-\ |
| 08:14 | <jwalden> | or rather, to say that anyone who experiments should expect future breakage |
| 08:16 | <Hixie> | jwalden: when you're in an abusive relationship, and your spouse has been beating you for 15 years, flinching when they raise their hand to hug you isn't paranoia |
| 08:16 | <Hixie> | it's good sense |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | jwalden: "Our policy gives our customers more predictability in their planning." |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/05/13/may-chat-with-the-ie-team-on-thursday.aspx#8502193 |
| 08:18 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: that answer is especially stupid given microsoft's policy of announcing everything years before they have implemented it |
| 08:18 | <MikeSmith> | predictability meaning, I guess, that their customers can consistently plan on them not giving any information about anything until they ship it |
| 08:18 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 08:19 | <Hixie> | (my favourite example being winfs, which iirc was announced around when Windows 95 was in beta) |
| 08:19 | <Hixie> | (13 or 14 years ago) |
| 08:20 | <MikeSmith> | announce ahead when it's convenient and useful (even vaporware), don't announce anything else ahead unless it gives some potential market advantage to do so |
| 08:20 | <jwalden> | I think there's a double standard here, tho, of announcing something (so committing to it being there) before it's ready and not announcing it until it's complete |
| 08:20 | <roc> | Hixie, I think you're mixing up WinFS with the "Cairo" "OLE file system" |
| 08:20 | <roc> | I think they cancelled the project at least once in between :-) |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | roc: right |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | roc: i just mean their "next generation" file system to come after NTFS which is somehow "revolutionary" |
| 08:22 | <Hixie> | the actual project has, as you say, been announced and canceled and reannounced many times since the original announcement |
| 08:22 | <MikeSmith> | I think in part that policy is just a general kneejerk policy of unnecessary secrecy -- of keeping everything in development (across all their product lines) secret by default |
| 08:22 | <Hixie> | i really do think the abusive relationship analogy is appropriate here, btw, right down to people being willing to forgive them any time they claim to have turned over a new leaf |
| 08:22 | <MikeSmith> | it reminds me of the Bush administration secrecy policy |
| 08:23 | <MikeSmith> | which has resulted in more stuff being made secret in the last eight years than in the previous 40 or something years combined |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | (and right down to the feeling i have of watching the relationship -- i've seen abusive relationships and it's pretty much exactly the same feeling) |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: but the point is they DON'T keep everything secret! |
| 08:24 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, same as Bush admin |
| 08:24 | <MikeSmith> | they leak stuff when they want to |
| 08:24 | <roc> | Silverlight is the best current example of this |
| 08:24 | <MikeSmith> | like the "Valerie Plame is a CIA agent" thing |
| 08:24 | <jwalden> | everybody does that, a way of saying something without saying it |
| 08:24 | <roc> | its feature set has been announced for years and it hasn't even shipped yet |
| 08:24 | <jwalden> | it's kinda smarmy, but it's common practice |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | i thought silverlight 2 had shipped |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | am i falling prey to the fud too? |
| 08:25 | <roc> | don't think so |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | so what is it that microsoft.com asks me to install every time i go there? |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | oh sl2 is in beta |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 08:25 | <MikeSmith> | while I can see a policy like that making sense for their other products -- or for other classes of products in general -- I think it makes a lot less sense for IE, or for a browser product in general |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | because for one thing they're not selling it, nor is anybody else selling a desktop browser |
| 08:37 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: btw, you got me in the Acks twice, as "Michael Smith" and "Mike Smith".. not sure I merit being in there at all (since the stuff I've commented on has mostly just been minor editorial things) but if you do have me in there, "Michael(tm) Smith" would be preferred (to make it clear which Michael Smith among the nation of Michael Smiths it is) |
| 08:39 | <Hixie> | (tm) or ™ ? :-) |
| 08:40 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, what's the purpose of the (tm) in your name? |
| 08:41 | <Hixie> | he just said what the purpose was |
| 08:41 | <Hixie> | "to make it clear which Michael Smith among the nation of Michael Smiths it is |
| 08:41 | <Hixie> | " |
| 08:42 | <Lachy> | ok, but why use TM? Is it your middle initials or something? |
| 08:42 | <Hixie> | "trademark" |
| 08:42 | Hixie | upgrades Lachy's sense of humour to the latest security update :-P |
| 08:43 | <Lachy> | yeah, I get that it means trademark. But I don't get the relevance |
| 08:44 | <Hixie> | it's irony |
| 08:44 | <Hixie> | but i don't know how to explain it |
| 08:45 | <Hixie> | like, "I'm going to go and eat now, because I'm Hungry(tm)" |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: what Hixie said :) |
| 08:47 | <Lachy> | ok, so I guess there's no logical or rational explanation for it and I just need to accept it :-( |
| 08:49 | <Hixie> | it's irony because his name is so common, yet he claims it as a trademark |
| 08:49 | <Hixie> | it's perfectly rational, but i don't know how to explain it :-) |
| 08:49 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: spec is updated btw |
| 08:50 | <Lachy> | ok, that's better explanation. |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: cheers |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | saw your checkins |
| 08:56 | Lachy | wonders why he didn't receive twitter updates for the recent spec checkins |
| 08:56 | <Hixie> | did twitter get them? |
| 08:56 | <Lachy> | yeah, the iframe seamless one is there, but I didn't receive it |
| 08:58 | <Lachy> | ah, it's twitters crappy jabber implementation that stops sending me twitter updates sometimes |
| 09:01 | <Hixie> | i haven't been able to get the jabber to work, like, ever |
| 09:01 | <Lachy> | what do you use to receive updates? |
| 09:02 | Philip` | would have assumed Hixie already knew about updates to the spec without having to get Twitter notifications :-p |
| 09:02 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i don't follow twitter |
| 09:03 | <Hixie> | i only use it to get direct twitters when i'm expecting them (and then i just look at the site, half the time i don't get e-mail notifications) |
| 09:04 | <Hixie> | other than that, for me, it's a write-only medium |
| 09:09 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#xxxoriginpleasesuggestabettername |
| 09:09 | <Hixie> | just for the record |
| 09:09 | <Hixie> | that is not a proposal for the name |
| 09:09 | <Hixie> | and if anyone implements that keyword i will personally hunt them down |
| 09:24 | <Lachy> | Hixie, add sandbox to "The DOM attributes src, name, and seamless must reflect the content attributes of the same name. " |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | will do |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | haven't got that far yet |
| 09:26 | <Lachy> | ok. |
| 09:26 | <Lachy> | will there be a DOMTokenList attribute for the sandbox? |
| 09:28 | <roc> | it would be useful if the spec document was published in multiple versions with different stability |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | roc: hm, interesting idea |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | roc: how would that work? |
| 09:29 | <roc> | not sure |
| 09:29 | <jwalden> | html5-mm |
| 09:29 | <roc> | but right now, for authors and implementors its hard to tell what is set in stone and what is likely to change |
| 09:29 | <Lachy> | roc, why would that be useful? |
| 09:29 | <Lachy> | oh |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | roc: well, the sections do have annotations |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | roc: which should make it relatively easy |
| 09:30 | <roc> | and what is likely to get them hunted down :-) |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | roc: but the presentation could do with some work, true |
| 09:40 | <roc> | not all the sections have annotations |
| 09:41 | <roc> | and it's hard to see what is covered by each annotation, especially if you happen to jump to the middle of the document and there's no annotation visible. I guess that's what you mean by the presentation needing work. |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | roc: yeah |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | roc: i'm slowly adding annotations |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | roc: any help in either that or making the presentation better would be welcome |
| 09:49 | <jwalden> | Hixie: what's the "tests: ##" thing supposed to mean in the annotation boxes? some whatwg/w3-maintained test suite or something? |
| 09:49 | <Hixie> | links (one URI per line) to any tests you know of |
| 09:50 | <jwalden> | ah |
| 09:52 | <jwalden> | I suppose that doesn't work so well for cross-domain tests |
| 09:53 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: the XXX convention in the spec is something you consistently use to indicates a placeholder ("we're not done here yet") thing? |
| 09:53 | <Hixie> | jwalden: ? |
| 09:53 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: yes |
| 09:53 | <Hixie> | the blue line on the chart shows the count of XXX markers |
| 09:53 | <MikeSmith> | aha |
| 09:54 | <MikeSmith> | wondered what that blue line was |
| 09:54 | MikeSmith | is remined of Errol Morris film "The Thin Blue Line" |
| 09:54 | <jwalden> | er, yeah, I suppose you could set up tests on a bunch of real servers |
| 09:54 | <jwalden> | would be a pain, but you could do it, I guess |
| 09:56 | <Hixie> | not that much of a pain |
| 09:56 | <Hixie> | i do it for a bunch of tests on hixie.ch |
| 09:56 | <Hixie> | they use another.domain.libpr0n.com as the other domain |
| 09:56 | <Hixie> | just one symlink |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | for the record, browsers all suck |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | i just wasted like 30 minutes trying to debug something in safari using the safari web developer tools |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | which frankly are crappy compared to firebug and other things available for firefox |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | but god, safari loads the html5 spec so much faster than firefox |
| 10:01 | <Hixie> | (safari also reloads way more than necessary when all i do is change a fragment identifier, and doesn't reload the tabs when it crashes) |
| 10:01 | <Hixie> | (and occasionally it seems to get wedged in a state where it won't download any pages) |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | but it feels much lighter than firefox |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | at least on mac |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 10:58 | <MikeSmith> | I'm trying to figure out what the main use cases are the the Opera File I/O proposal would enable |
| 10:59 | <MikeSmith> | I mean what specific feature it would bring to users that existing applications can't |
| 10:59 | <MikeSmith> | features |
| 16:45 | <annevk> | Hixie, "an descending" |
| 17:13 | <annevk> | Hixie, seamless is not a boolean on the IDL |
| 18:05 | <hendry> | i need to draw a graph. what to library to use. seems to be so many nowadays. |
| 19:07 | <Philip`> | hendry: Gnuplot! |
| 19:08 | Philip` | has almost figured out how to use that, so he doesn't want to waste the investment by switching to anything else |
| 19:16 | <Lachy> | hendry, it depends what you need to draw the graph for and where you intend to use it. |
| 19:16 | MikeSmith | reads jwalden comment on IE Blog posting about cross-document messaging |
| 19:16 | <MikeSmith> | http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/05/19/enabling-mash-ups-in-internet-explorer-8-with-cross-document-messaging.aspx#8520209 |
| 19:23 | <MikeSmith> | by way of summary at Ajaxian: |
| 19:23 | <MikeSmith> | http://ajaxian.com/archives/ie-8-and-cross-document-messaging |
| 19:24 | MikeSmith | wonders how Dion Almaer makes time to code and still blog & tweet as much as he does |
| 19:50 | <hendry> | Lachy: on the Web with Firefox 3. need to plot a simple approximate 2d graph to demonstrate an idea. I guess inkscape is probably best. I love xfig but it doesn't do SVG I guess. |
| 19:52 | <Lachy> | hendry, yeah, you could use SVG or <canvas>. |
| 19:52 | <Lachy> | If you want it generated dynamcially from a table of data, you could use PlotKit |
| 19:52 | <Philip`> | Or PNG |
| 19:53 | <Philip`> | Avoid overcomplication :-) |
| 20:15 | <hsivonen> | http://joeclark.org/access/webaccess/WCAG/response1_Understanding-WCAG2.html interesting points |
| 20:30 | <Dashiva> | hsivonen: There's also the whole "wcag process isn't accessible" thing that nobody wants to talk about :) |
| 20:31 | <Philip`> | "If data were understandable by themselves, we wouldn’t make a chart." seems untrue - we'd make a chart if the chart was more understandable than the data, even if the data was already understandable |
| 20:32 | <Lachy> | "A slider? That requires a mouse, not to mention full vision. " - How does a slider require a mouse? It can be used by keyboard users if implemented correctly |
| 20:32 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: I don't have a diagnosed learning disability, but I find WCAG2 and ATAG2 hard to follow, because they are so abstract and then lawyerly on top of that |
| 20:32 | <Lachy> | maybe that was true when the document was written, and there was no way to add a slider to a web page accessibly |
| 20:33 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: it's from 2006 |
| 20:33 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 20:39 | <Dashiva> | I thing I've been wondering is if (e.g.) red-green colorblind people are more likely to think "red looks like green", "green looks like red", "red and green are different, but I can't tell them apart" or "red and green are two names for the same color" |
| 21:02 | MikeSmith | notes Updated: 2006.05.23 at the bottom of that article |
| 21:33 | <Lachy> | http://css-tricks.com/html-5-vs-xhtml-2-an-article-roundup-and-poll/ |
| 21:35 | <Lachy> | also note the poll at the bottom of the right column. XHTML2 (33%, 33 votes) is ahead of HTML5 (18%, 17 votes) |
| 21:40 | <Philip`> | Lachy: The people have spoken - HTML5 is doomed :-( |
| 21:42 | <Lachy> | indeed. I'm going to quit now and join the XHTML2 group before it's too late. |
| 21:52 | <Dashiva> | Darn, I wish someone told me the future of the web was decided on a first-come, first-vote, 50-votes-only basis |
| 21:53 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: cf. The Workshop :-) |
| 22:39 | <Lachy> | Dashiva, there were more votes. But most people voted don't care. |