| 00:05 | <Philip`> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=446494 - great fun |
| 01:04 | gsnedders | pokes michaeltwofish |
| 01:04 | gsnedders | laughs at him |
| 01:04 | gsnedders | runs |
| 01:04 | <michaeltwofish> | gsnedders: I told you I was sensitive :p |
| 01:05 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: When do you think you'll change all the em and the like used for xref currently, BTW? |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | about an hour or two from now |
| 01:05 | <gsnedders> | Ah :) |
| 01:05 | <gsnedders> | Then no more --w3c-compat! Yay! |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 01:05 | <gsnedders> | But libxml2's HTML parser mungles the DOCTYPE :( |
| 01:05 | Hixie | waves his "specgen 1.2" flag |
| 01:05 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 01:06 | <gsnedders> | Which leads to it outputting no DOCTYPE using that parser, meaning html5lib has to be used, which is annoying slow. |
| 01:06 | <gsnedders> | HTML 4.01 for ever! |
| 01:06 | <Hixie> | i can fix up the doctype in post |
| 01:06 | <Hixie> | no biggie |
| 01:07 | <gsnedders> | Probably quicker to do it that way around than use html5lib |
| 01:07 | <gsnedders> | Hopefully we can eventually get libxml2's HTML parser to be an html5 parser anyway |
| 01:07 | <Hixie> | hopefully |
| 01:07 | <gsnedders> | We can always dream :P |
| 01:08 | <gsnedders> | I'll try and push a first beta release of 1.0 tomorrow |
| 01:08 | <gsnedders> | Hopefully only need one, then I can get out an RC, while will hopefully become the final version without changes |
| 01:09 | <gsnedders> | (The main thing needed now is just docs) |
| 01:09 | <gsnedders> | The only thing that doesn't work is the XML input/output mode. |
| 01:09 | <gsnedders> | And I think that'll just be pushed to 1.1 |
| 01:10 | <gsnedders> | Then after that you can get your beloved release :P |
| 01:10 | <Hixie> | push it to 1.3! 1.3! :-D |
| 01:10 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 01:10 | <gsnedders> | And have what in 1.2? |
| 01:10 | <gsnedders> | I have nothing else in my to-do list for 1.2 yet! :P |
| 01:10 | <jcranmer> | 1.2 be an experimental release? |
| 01:11 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: So a re-release of 1.1, just experimental? I like that idea. |
| 01:11 | <Hixie> | 1.2 is the one where you have the ability for the Web Workers spec's cross-references to HTML5 to be automatically done |
| 01:11 | <jcranmer> | although typically it's the odd numbers that are experiments... |
| 01:11 | <Hixie> | all the spans that have faded green thick underlines in: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/ |
| 01:11 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Push XML to 1.3, you mean? |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | ...should be links to HTML5 |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 01:12 | <gsnedders> | It isn't that much work |
| 01:12 | <gsnedders> | Maybe an hour or so |
| 01:12 | <gsnedders> | I just want to ship 1.0 :P |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | see, that delays my feature by an hour! |
| 01:12 | <gsnedders> | 1.0 = Keeping Hixie somewhat happy |
| 01:12 | <gsnedders> | 1.1 = Keeping annevk and Lachy happy |
| 01:12 | <jcranmer> | gsnedders: what exactly is it you're working on? |
| 01:12 | <gsnedders> | 1.2 = Making Hixie happy |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | that's pretty cunning |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | make me think i'm important but actually put me second, i like it :-P |
| 01:13 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: No, you're just more demanding than the others :P |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | sounds familiar |
| 01:13 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: Basically a clone of the CSS WG's postprocessor, so it does xrefs and toc building, and things like date substitution |
| 01:14 | <jcranmer> | ah |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | a clone that's faster |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | the speed being the main feature |
| 01:14 | <gsnedders> | … and better. |
| 01:14 | jcranmer | is more of a spec complainer than a spec writer |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | better in 1.2! |
| 01:14 | <gsnedders> | Hixie doesn't care much about the better part. |
| 01:14 | <gsnedders> | He just wants speed. |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | what's better about it anyway? |
| 01:14 | <gsnedders> | "i need the section numbering, the table of contents, the cross-referencing, and i think that's all. oh and speed. speed is the most important. oh and the date substitution, maybe, but that i can do myself if necessary." |
| 01:15 | <gsnedders> | (and that's more or less the entire feature list of 1.0) |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | what are anne and lachlan getting? |
| 01:15 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Anne just wants one or two things like dfn with header linking to header |
| 01:16 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Lachlan wants things like biblio |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | btw if you're still looking for ways to make date substitution faster, just stop doing substitution after the TOC |
| 01:16 | <gsnedders> | That's not overly expensive |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | hm, <dfn> in the first paragraph after a section header linking to the header would be quite nice, yes |
| 01:16 | <gsnedders> | Anne meant <h1><dfn>foo</dfn></h1> |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | oh |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | well that'd be ok too |
| 01:17 | <gsnedders> | http://bugs.gsnedders.com/issues/show/5 |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | actually linking to the paragraph instead of the dfn in the general case wouldn't be bad probably |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | internal error |
| 01:18 | <gsnedders> | Hmm. |
| 01:18 | <gsnedders> | the dangers of running unstable versions of bug tracking software |
| 01:18 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080603#l-556 |
| 01:19 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: It just quotes three lines from that, annevk at :36, :37, and :58 |
| 01:19 | <gsnedders> | Another thing in 1.1 is indexing |
| 01:20 | <takkaria> | gsnedders: I imagine you'll see a speedup when hubbub can be used with libxml2... given that for my google summer of code project I'll have to write some kind of hubbub<->libxml2 binding, it's not too far off |
| 01:20 | <gsnedders> | takkaria: Then I have to wait for it to get a fair way downstream :P |
| 01:20 | <takkaria> | oh, I suppose so |
| 01:20 | <takkaria> | that will take time |
| 01:21 | <takkaria> | unless someone writes a C to python compiler, but I suppose that defeats the purpose |
| 01:22 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I have this lovely option now for the CLI: --w3c-compat-crazy-substitutions |
| 01:22 | <gsnedders> | Which does the rewriting of http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-XXX |
| 01:24 | jcranmer | wishes he could use WF2 in his intranet |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | so far i've only really had one hit with html5 |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | namely, postMessage() |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | that's the only thing that's been implemented by all four major browsers |
| 01:25 | <jcranmer> | <input type="date" /> makes me salivate |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | i want <menu> and <datagrid> |
| 01:26 | <jcranmer> | because rolling a custom date input that is sane is not fun |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 01:26 | <gsnedders> | I want input@type='color' |
| 01:26 | <takkaria> | Hixie: not the DOM storage stuff? |
| 01:26 | <gsnedders> | actually, I _want_ input@type='colour' :P |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | takkaria: opera and safari haven't got Storage, i don't think, do they? |
| 01:27 | <Philip`> | jcranmer: Custom date inputs are easy - just do <script src="custom-date-input-widget.js"> |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | he said "sane" |
| 01:27 | <jcranmer> | input type=color would also be useful, but I'd want implemented in about five different ways |
| 01:27 | <Philip`> | since you're not the first person on the web to want a date widget, so someone must have a made a decent one already |
| 01:27 | <jcranmer> | Philip`: I forgot to mention one of the requirements: it works without JS |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | type=color is unlikely to happen, just see how many types of colour pickers mac os x has |
| 01:28 | <takkaria> | Hixie: webkit svn has had --with-dom-storage as a configure option for a while |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 01:28 | <jcranmer> | the problem with type=color is that people want different things |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | and opera? |
| 01:28 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: OS X just has a single one, and options within it :P |
| 01:29 | <jcranmer> | chooseable RGB/HSL is common (generally with "recent"), but "select from these options" is also common |
| 01:29 | <Hixie> | mac os x has a colour picker picker |
| 01:29 | <gsnedders> | True. |
| 01:29 | <gsnedders> | Oh well, I better head off to sleep. |
| 01:29 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 01:29 | <jcranmer> | g'night gsnedders |
| 01:29 | <gsnedders> | I expect a fixed HTML 5 by when I awaken! :P |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | i'll try :-) |
| 01:30 | <gsnedders> | Not only is Hixie demanding, but so am I :P |
| 01:32 | <takkaria> | Hixie: I thought it had, but maybe it doesn't |
| 01:32 | <takkaria> | still, three out of four, when one of the three is IE, I'd class that as a hit |
| 01:32 | jcranmer | can't find a bug in mozilla for <input type="date" /> |
| 01:34 | <takkaria> | jcranmer: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344614 would cover it |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | ok, a platinum and a gold? :-) |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | not that IE8 has shipped yet |
| 01:34 | <jcranmer> | takkaria: but that's a metabug |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | also, they tried to embrace and extend DOM Storage, so counting it is dubious |
| 01:35 | <jcranmer> | if you look at deps, you'll see other <input type=""> as bugs |
| 01:35 | <takkaria> | aye, I just saw that |
| 01:36 | <takkaria> | Hixie: MS embrace and extend things they see as a threat, so take it as a compliment :) |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | oh i had already taken it as a compliment |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | that's a whole different issue :-) |
| 01:40 | <jcranmer> | if IE supports WF2 in IE 8, I think WebKit + Gecko will bump it up on the todo list |
| 01:41 | <takkaria> | is it going to? |
| 01:41 | <jcranmer> | AFAICT, no |
| 01:42 | <jcranmer> | they're too busy hyping CSS 2.1 support |
| 01:43 | <jcranmer> | and uber-fashionable stuff like WebSlices |
| 01:43 | <jcranmer> | something that every web developer would simply die to have is obviously not on their radar |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | does anyone actually care about WebSlices? |
| 01:43 | <jcranmer> | outside of MS |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | i've never heard anyone but microsoft talk about them |
| 01:44 | <jcranmer> | probably not |
| 01:44 | <takkaria> | mozilla labs are doing something with them |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | oh? |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | oh you mean the microsummaries stuff? |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | that's in ff3 |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | webslices seem like a less powerful version of safari's snippets |
| 01:46 | <jcranmer> | since FF already has a datepicker, you'd think that proper input@type=date shouldn't be too hard to add |
| 01:52 | <Philip`> | I'm not familiar with many date pickers but I noticed the one in Vista's clock is actually pretty nice, because it zooms pleasantly, so e.g. if it's showing a list of months and you click a month then it zooms in on it and shows all the days |
| 01:53 | <Philip`> | and you can go century -> decade -> year -> month -> day just by clicking without getting lost and without having nasty fiddly drop-down lists or tiny arrows |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | this is the clock for setting the system time? |
| 01:55 | <Philip`> | Yes |
| 01:55 | <Philip`> | (I'm not sure if it's used elsewhere) |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | and it lets you pick centuries? |
| 01:55 | <Philip`> | No, it's limited to the current century (actually 1990-2099) at the outermost zoom level |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | seriously wtf, why do i keep timing out from irc.w3c.org |
| 02:10 | <Hixie> | ok i fixed the things gsnedders pointed out; I also remove title="" attributes from <em> elements so it's likely that there will be cross-reference problems until i start using his script to gen the spec |
| 02:10 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: the validator seems much slower than it was |
| 03:04 | <aroben> | Hixie: the bb element's interface is currently called "HTMLCommandElement" -- seems like a typo |
| 03:11 | <Hixie> | duuuuh |
| 03:11 | <Hixie> | me stoopid |
| 03:11 | <Hixie> | thanks fixed |
| 03:39 | <Lachy> | Hixie, why was command renamed to bb? |
| 03:39 | <Hixie> | it wasn't |
| 03:39 | <Lachy> | oh, sorry, misunderstood |
| 03:43 | <Lachy> | so, if I've understood correctly, is <bb> designed to allow web pages to include commands within the webpage itself to perform user agent functions, somewhat analogous to a link like <a href="javascript:print()">, but in a non-scripted way? |
| 03:45 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 03:45 | <Hixie> | indeed we might add <bb type="print">Print this page</bb> at some point |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | it's just an idea though, i'm mostly curious to see how othermaciej responds when I post my reply to the list (I'm still writing it) |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | i think i addressed his concerns |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | but i'm not 100% sure |
| 03:46 | <Lachy> | wouldn't action="" be a better name for the attribute? |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | i guess |
| 03:46 | <jcranmer> | sounds useful, except for the fact that one of the underlying principles in my intranet project is that "it should work without JS unless you have a compelling reason to require JS" |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | i didn't really think about what to call it |
| 03:47 | <Hixie> | jcranmer: this works without js |
| 03:47 | <jcranmer> | Hixie: I should also mention an IE requirement ;-) |
| 03:47 | <Hixie> | well, IE doesn't support standalone webapps at all, so that point is moot |
| 03:47 | <jcranmer> | in any case, there was one feature I added not too long ago that required FF |
| 03:48 | <othermaciej> | I will read the email and see what I think |
| 03:48 | <jcranmer> | justified on the fact that the only people using it are the people who use FF and actually ask us if it's safe to upgrade to the next minor version :-) |
| 03:49 | <Hixie> | we just hit r1900! |
| 06:13 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Well, start using it today :P |
| 06:16 | gsnedders | has an obscenely sore stomach and can't sleep |
| 06:34 | <Hixie> | hm, only Firefox and Safari had window.toolbar |
| 06:55 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html— output of spec-gen html5.src.html html5.html (i..e, with no options) |
| 06:55 | <gsnedders> | and therefore not in w3c compat mode |
| 06:57 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: The only thing that breaks at all is what I mentioned in the email yesterday |
| 07:00 | <Hixie> | you have some <a>s inside <code>s |
| 07:00 | <Hixie> | i fixed what you mentioned yesterday |
| 07:00 | <Hixie> | the <em>s |
| 07:01 | <Hixie> | oh nevermind |
| 07:01 | <Hixie> | you don't |
| 07:02 | <gsnedders> | Of course I don't. I wrote the code, so therefore it's right. |
| 07:04 | <Hixie> | aw man, now i have double underlines |
| 07:05 | <Hixie> | i don't have the selectors i need to make this work |
| 07:05 | <gsnedders> | Make better selectors! |
| 07:05 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 07:05 | <Hixie> | people didn't like my proposal for :matches() |
| 07:05 | <gsnedders> | :uber-html5-selector() |
| 07:06 | <Hixie> | i guess we'll have to switch the <a> and the <code> around |
| 07:06 | <Hixie> | sigh |
| 07:12 | <gsnedders> | We need a parent selector! :P |
| 07:12 | gsnedders | runs |
| 07:19 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I guess you don't stand by, "That's easily fixable" :) |
| 07:19 | <Hixie> | guess not |
| 07:20 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: The thing is, there are already places like http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dynamic0 |
| 07:25 | <gsnedders> | The only thing that matches //code//a in my copy is "identity matrix, and then invoke the transform", where transform is a span inside a code |
| 07:33 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Oh well, there's always --w3c-compat-xref-a-placement (which thereby only does that, and no other compat. stuff) |
| 08:38 | <hsivonen> | aargh. Apache on validator.nu has died again. this time differently. |
| 08:40 | <hsivonen> | time to upgrade the server I guess |
| 08:55 | <hsivonen> | I see "[error] server reached MaxClients setting, consider raising the MaxClients setting" in the Apache logs |
| 08:56 | <hsivonen> | surely Apache shouldn't die if MaxClients is reached? |
| 08:58 | <Dashiva> | If the clients are hanging/locking up, then there's be none left for new requests, and the server would look pretty dead |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | Shouldn't a robust HTTP server recover from such a situation somehow? |
| 09:03 | <Dashiva> | Apparently there's backlog of waiting requests, but that too has a limit |
| 09:06 | <hsivonen> | how do people generally deal with situations like this? I can't be the first person running Apache. |
| 09:07 | <hsivonen> | as far as I can tell from access logs, there hasn't been any horrid DoS attack going on |
| 09:09 | <hsivonen> | unless, of course, the relevant last log lines are lost in a situation like this |
| 09:11 | <wilhelm> | hsivonen: I've had the same issues on my Ubuntu mirror. I just increased the limit significantly. |
| 09:11 | <wilhelm> | As long as the hardware survives, that shouldn't be a problem. |
| 09:12 | <hsivonen> | wilhelm: I'll try that. thanks |
| 09:13 | <wilhelm> | How much traffic is there? |
| 09:14 | <hsivonen> | wilhelm: I don't have numbers at hand, but from looking at the raw logs, not enough to explain this |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: how does XHR work from workers if DOM nodes aren't visible in workers? |
| 09:32 | <virtuelv> | <arve> I can provoke Opera into showing me any random number of context menus |
| 09:33 | <virtuelv> | err, wrong clipboard |
| 09:33 | <virtuelv> | http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/21/font-embedding-on-the-web.aspx |
| 09:35 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I was under the impression that XHR didn't work in Workers, but I might be wrong |
| 09:36 | Philip` | sees https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=437152 |
| 09:37 | <Philip`> | (including #c9) |
| 09:37 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: there's a red box in the worker spec implying that XHR is available |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: it works well, just without the "XML" part |
| 09:51 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: ok |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | :-( things are going really wrong with Apache on validator.nu |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | :-( |
| 10:33 | <gsnedders> | Why is that I am monumentally more productive sitting on the pier with a notebook than here? |
| 10:37 | gsnedders | guesses: no internet |
| 10:40 | <hendry> | hsivonen: need some help? |
| 10:41 | <hsivonen> | hendry: possibly, but I need to look into this some more to have smart questions to ask |
| 10:44 | hsivonen | sees Timeout 300 |
| 10:45 | <hendry> | hsivonen: i am thinking of trying to get css validator going on one of my machines. |
| 10:46 | <hendry> | don't know why the W3 haven't done anything on the GNU output front. Holidays? |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | hendry: I don't know what the usual feature request fulfillment time is for the CSS validator |
| 10:48 | <hendry> | afaik they need to drop in the template which i helped make and restart the server ;) |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | i think spec authors and working groups should be required to work on a dozen vaguely related things instead of allowing any one group to focus on one specific problem |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | i think having too much expertise on one problem leads to overengineered specs that do too much. |
| 10:52 | Hixie | gets off his soapbox |
| 10:53 | hsivonen | wonders which WG inspired the soapboxing this time |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | CMML/annodex |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | and timed text |
| 10:54 | hsivonen | is not a fan of the W3C timed text spec |
| 10:56 | <hendry> | is it a sin to markup my audio oggs in a video tag? |
| 10:57 | <hsivonen> | hendry: I have installed software from an unofficial but distribution-specific apt source. do I need to do something specific before I upgrade the distrobution in place? |
| 10:57 | <wilhelm> | Hm. Is the <bb> element supposed to replace stuff like this?: <form action='./delete/' method='post'><input type='submit' value='Delete'></form> |
| 10:58 | <hsivonen> | wilhelm: as far as I can tell, the purpose of <bb> is to provide a trigger for turning a Web app into a Dock icon |
| 10:58 | <hendry> | hsivonen: no.. just: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get -u dist-upgrade |
| 10:59 | <hsivonen> | hendry: ok. thanks |
| 11:25 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: you around? |
| 11:25 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: I appear to be |
| 11:27 | <MikeSmith> | so I know you've almost got a complete workalike of the CSS module postprocesser thing done, but if you still have time and interest, maybe it would be used for rethinking something better than that |
| 11:28 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: Re-thinking in what way? |
| 11:28 | <MikeSmith> | well, in terms of the markup I forces me to put in my source -- the CSS module postprocessor system seems kind of broken by design |
| 11:29 | <MikeSmith> | the [FOO] macro stuff |
| 11:29 | <gsnedders> | Ah. I already had a relatively long discussion about that. |
| 11:29 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 11:30 | <gsnedders> | On the face of it, it would be nice to use <!--foo--> instead, but then you can't do <link rel="stylesheet" href="http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-[STATUS]">; |
| 11:31 | <gsnedders> | I'd be happy to implement something nicer, pending something found without large flaws |
| 11:31 | <MikeSmith> | well, for the Web IDL spec, heycam came up with something that I think is pretty good |
| 11:32 | <MikeSmith> | hang on, lemme get you a URL |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | fwiw, my bibliography generator uses [Foo] in text content as the bibliography trigger |
| 11:35 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: postprocesser does [[foo]] |
| 11:35 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/pubnotes/Overview.src.html?rev=1.316&content-type=text/plain;%20charset=utf-8 |
| 11:36 | <MikeSmith> | see the <header> stuff |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | viewing the rendered version of the source gives this: |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | it minimizes |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | whoops |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/Overview.src.html |
| 11:38 | <MikeSmith> | and the processed result looks just like other WDs |
| 11:38 | <MikeSmith> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/Overview.html |
| 11:38 | <Lachy> | hmm, interesting. |
| 11:39 | <Lachy> | for the class=person and other stuff within, it might be better to use hCard |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | I cribbed the basics of that from heycam's stuff here: |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/WebIDL/Overview.xml?rev=1.83&content-type=text/plain |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: true |
| 11:40 | <Lachy> | hmm, maybe not, cause hcard can be a bit verbose |
| 11:40 | <Lachy> | and its class names aren't really author friendly. |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | well, it's something people may have familiarity with already at least |
| 11:40 | <MikeSmith> | what I have there is just ad-hoc |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | or actually it might be based on docbook |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, the general idea is to minimize that markup that authors need to put in the source |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | and just move all the boilerplate stuff to the processor |
| 11:42 | <gsnedders> | Stuff like the status section is really W3C specific, and I don't want that much W3C specific stuff |
| 11:43 | <MikeSmith> | you can of course make that configurable |
| 11:44 | <MikeSmith> | or just omit it from the source |
| 11:44 | <MikeSmith> | in which case the processor doesn't need to do anything with it |
| 11:45 | <gsnedders> | or to phrase it another way, it's something I won't use, and thus have little interest in writing code for :) |
| 11:45 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, maybe there's a way to make it more generic, so instead of hard coding W3C specific stuff into the spec-gen, allow authors to provide some sort of boiler-plate text config file that declares things like <!--status--> and its replacement |
| 11:46 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: what Lachy said |
| 11:46 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: And then you need a database of long/short forms of statuses; the status boilerplate for each status, which varies from WG to WG |
| 11:47 | <MikeSmith> | boilerplate for status doesn't vary from group to group, actually |
| 11:47 | <MikeSmith> | it's mostly the same |
| 11:47 | <MikeSmith> | some strings in it are different |
| 11:48 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, parts of the status are the same for everyone and other parts are customised for each spec. That's not a problem |
| 11:48 | <MikeSmith> | btw, I was recently told that there's no requirement to mention the W3C activity or domain in the status |
| 11:49 | <MikeSmith> | so those can be ommitted |
| 11:49 | <Lachy> | but even if they were different, then just let each WG provide their own config file with customised boilerplate text |
| 11:49 | <MikeSmith> | the only thing in the W3C status boilerplate that's really W3C specific is the IPP thing |
| 11:50 | <MikeSmith> | all the other variables there are general |
| 11:50 | <MikeSmith> | 1) a group name 2) a mailing adress for comments 3) a URL for archive of the mailing list |
| 11:51 | Lachy | wonders what Rob is smoking. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0273.html |
| 11:51 | <Lachy> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0267.html |
| 11:52 | Lachy | is resisting the urge to respond cause it'll only end up being a flamewar |
| 11:53 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: yep |
| 11:54 | <MikeSmith> | on the good-news side, John Resig recent blog entry about performance of DocumentFragment is kinda nice |
| 11:57 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, link? |
| 11:57 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: replying wouldn't be productive |
| 11:58 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, I know, that was my point. |
| 11:59 | <Lachy> | http://ejohn.org/blog/dom-documentfragments/ |
| 12:00 | <zcorpan_> | funny that he calls hsivonen ignorant about dtds |
| 12:09 | <gsnedders> | http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2008-July/021076.html — more WP fun |
| 12:39 | <zcorpan_> | http://wimleers.com/blog/whatwg-truly-open-participation-for-designing-the-next-foundation-of-the-internet makes me smile :) |
| 13:03 | hsivonen | sees a LATERed bug (http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5833) despite REMIND and LATER being considered harmful |
| 13:04 | Philip` | wishes Opera's JS implementation supported 'for each' |
| 13:13 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, why are LATER and REMIND harmful? |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13534 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35839 |
| 13:32 | <Lachy> | aargh! NO! I just deleted a bunch of files I shouldn't have :-( |
| 13:33 | Lachy | will have to recreate them :-( |
| 13:33 | <Philip`> | Look in the Recycle Bin |
| 13:35 | <Lachy> | Philip`, out of habbit, I emptied the trash straight away without realising that the wrong file had been selected. The problem was I didn't notice I'd |
| 13:37 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: no Time Machine? |
| 13:39 | <Philip`> | The data's probably still on disk, so just "hexdump -C /dev/sda" or whatever the non-Linux equivalent is |
| 13:40 | <Lachy> | I have no idea what the Mac equivalent for that would be |
| 13:41 | <Lachy> | maybe I can install it. But what does that command do? |
| 13:41 | <gsnedders> | /dev/disk0s1 is the root drive, IIRC |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: you can read the disk with 'less' on Mac |
| 13:41 | <gsnedders> | (You can look up that in Disk Utility) |
| 13:41 | <gsnedders> | But you probably just want /dev/disk0 actually |
| 13:41 | <Philip`> | /dev/sda is just a file that gives direct access to the hard disk |
| 13:42 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, how do I use 'less'? |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | and hexdump is kind of like cat except it dumps stuff in hex |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | (and hexdump -C is a nicer format output) |
| 13:42 | <Lachy> | should I just use: less /dev/sda |
| 13:42 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: You want /dev/disk0, and not /dev/sda |
| 13:43 | <Philip`> | Reading a hundred gigabytes of data through 'less' might not be the best idea ever :-p |
| 13:43 | <gsnedders> | Why not? :P |
| 13:43 | gsnedders | runs away |
| 13:43 | <gsnedders> | To the pier! |
| 13:43 | <gsnedders> | (with a notebook) |
| 13:44 | <gsnedders> | (I'm more productive sitting there with a notebook than I am with the internet and everything else to distract me at home, unless I meet someone I know) |
| 13:44 | <Lachy> | ok, so do I just keep going through the all the output till I see the file I want? |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: sudo less -f /dev/disk0s1 |
| 13:45 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: less has search |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | You'd probably have to search for part of the file's content, not its filename |
| 13:46 | <Lachy> | Philip`, how do I search for it? |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | How large is the file? |
| 13:46 | <Lachy> | the important one was just a python script |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: press slash and then type a string that is unique in the contents of the file and hit enter |
| 13:46 | Philip` | would have thought there'd exist some kind of undeleter program that would be easier to use than less :-) |
| 13:47 | <Lachy> | Philip`, there is, but they cost money |
| 13:48 | <Philip`> | Lachy: That seems an unfortunate side-effect of using OS X |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | I guess I can just rewrite the script again if I can't get it. It was based on this one http://junkyard.damowmow.com/322 |
| 13:50 | Philip` | thinks he has never actually bought any software ever, except for games |
| 14:16 | <Lachy> | I couldn't recover the files from my disk, but luckily I can redownload most of them from the original sources and rewrite the python script |
| 15:36 | <Lachy> | this time, I checked the script into CVS so I won't lost it again. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/html-author/utils/ |
| 15:45 | <hsivonen> | why is the WHATWG copy of the spec lacking a doctype? |
| 15:49 | <zcorpan> | because quirks mode is the new shit |
| 15:50 | <zcorpan> | or because http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/header-whatwg has <!DOCTYPE html> and the css post processor strips the doctype in that case |
| 15:51 | <Lachy> | zcorpan, then why would the DOCTYPE still be in the W3C copy? |
| 15:51 | <zcorpan> | i guess Hixie is waiting for gsnedders' 1.2 specgen |
| 15:51 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: i guess the w3c copy has a different header |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Likely because my spec-gen is being used for the WHATWG copy, and with the libxml2 HTML parser being used, it vanishes |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | Actually, that can't be it |
| 15:53 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: oh is hixie already using your specgen? |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: Not yet, it seems |
| 15:53 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | The stuff he wants in 1.2 is completely new stuff: 1.0 does everything he needs that already happens |
| 15:54 | <gsnedders> | But yeah, the W3C copy has a different header |
| 15:54 | <gsnedders> | And pubrules stipulate that a normative copy of the spec must exist as HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0 |
| 15:55 | <Philip`> | The multipage W3C one is HTML 4, so that can be the normative copy :-) |
| 15:55 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 15:56 | <hsivonen> | anyway, I just deployed a fix for http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5796 |
| 15:56 | <hsivonen> | which makes errors go away when validating the spec |
| 15:57 | <zcorpan> | i like that hyatt is an editor for the w3c version but not for the whatwg version |
| 15:57 | <gsnedders> | He wrote the status section for the W3C, I guess. |
| 15:57 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 15:58 | <hsivonen> | I guess the data templates stuff is partially hyatt's. |
| 15:58 | <hsivonen> | even if Hixie expressed it in writing |
| 15:58 | <zcorpan> | and now Hixie's gonna drop it :( |
| 15:59 | <gsnedders> | "Special thanks and $10,000 to David Hyatt who came up with a broken implementation of the adoption agency algorithm that the editor had to reverse engineer and fix before using it in the parsing section." |
| 15:59 | <gsnedders> | Isn't that a conflict of interest? |
| 15:59 | <zcorpan> | did he actually get $10,000? |
| 15:59 | <gsnedders> | No :P |
| 15:59 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: People who come up with ideas go in the acknowledgements section; the people in the editors section should be the people who edit |
| 16:00 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: :( |
| 16:00 | <gsnedders> | Which is why he could just edit the status section of the W3C copy, and then he's an editor of that but not the WHATWG copy :P |
| 16:00 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/2413 |
| 16:00 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Heh. |
| 16:01 | <gsnedders> | I still like http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/3770 |
| 16:02 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: And for you, http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/3653 |
| 16:04 | <gsnedders> | http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html — that the latest copy of the WHATWG spec from my spec-gen |
| 16:06 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: are you stipping optional tags per html5 rules or not at all? |
| 16:06 | <zcorpan> | not at all it seems |
| 16:06 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: I'm following html5lib's defaults. |
| 16:07 | <gsnedders> | Whatever they are :) |
| 16:07 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 16:07 | <Philip`> | The table of contents ought to have newlines so the source is readable |
| 16:07 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, it ought to. |
| 16:07 | <gsnedders> | I never got round to doing that, though. |
| 16:08 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: it's for browsers to read. the pre-specgen version is for humans |
| 16:08 | <zcorpan> | why would you read the source of the toc? |
| 16:09 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Humans read what is published, and the post-specgen version is what's published |
| 16:09 | <gsnedders> | I think that's the only thing that I generate that is unreadable |
| 16:10 | <takkaria> | zcorpan: puts you to sleep quickly at night, I'd say |
| 16:10 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Reading the spec's source is sometimes interesting because it has comments and jokes and stuff, and when reading the spec's source you inevitably see the giant ugly lump of TOC code while scrolling down |
| 16:11 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: the comments also have interesting SVG parsing stuff :-) |
| 16:13 | <Lachy> | Philip`, there's a reveal comments bookmarklet you can use for that, so you don't need to look at the source for them http://lachy.id.au/dev/utilities/ |
| 16:13 | <zcorpan> | <h5 id=the-xml:base-attribute-(xml-only)> -- omg that wouldn't be xml-namespace-valid if converted to xml |
| 16:13 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: It doesn't try to be, though :) |
| 16:14 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: It does different stuff in HTML 4.01 documents to keep them conforming, with stricter @id syntax |
| 16:14 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: And when I get around to getting XML working, it will be all right there too |
| 16:14 | <Philip`> | Lachy: But I'm too lazy to learn how to use bookmarklets, and I already know how to open 'view source' quickly |
| 16:14 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: so the w3c and whatwg copies end up having different ids? |
| 16:14 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: cool. it beachballs firefox 3 on the spec, though |
| 16:15 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: hmm. true. |
| 16:15 | <MikeSmith> | if the generated TOC doesn't have newlines, it makes a gigantic diff any time a single change is made to one section title in the spec |
| 16:15 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, only for a few seconds |
| 16:15 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: i think it'd make sense to have the same rules for all even though text/html html5 allows more characters than xml or html4 |
| 16:15 | <Lachy> | Philip`, all you do is drag it to your bookmarks toolbar and then click on it to use it |
| 16:16 | MikeSmith | sees that he just re-stated what Philip had already said better |
| 16:16 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: Not if the diffs are done on the pre-specgen version |
| 16:16 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: true |
| 16:16 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: I'd rather not, but just make it an option |
| 16:16 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I don't have a bookmarks toolbar |
| 16:16 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: my bookmarks toolbar is for bookmarklets |
| 16:19 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I'm sure Opera has several toolbars available in which you could add it as a button or something |
| 16:21 | <Lachy> | this is sad http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/21/font-embedding-on-the-web.aspx |
| 16:21 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Whenever I change my browser UI at all, the differences disturb me for days :-( |
| 16:21 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: commit-watchers does diffs on both the generated and the source versions |
| 16:22 | <gsnedders> | http://bugs.gsnedders.com/projects/roadmap/spec-gen |
| 16:24 | hsivonen | hasn't heard of Ascender Corporation before |
| 16:34 | hsivonen | discovers that allowing full DTD functionality without the Same Origin Policy or Access-Control would allow cross-site data leakage |
| 16:48 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: how? |
| 16:49 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: yeah. I had thought about many bad sides of DTDs but not external parsed entities (or sensitive entities in general) |
| 16:50 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22942#c103 |
| 16:53 | hsivonen | is amused by "(Non-normative) <cite>Inter Gravissimas</cite>, A. Lilius, C. Clavius. Gregory XIII Papal Bulls, February 1582." |
| 16:59 | <hsivonen> | at least the Microsoft partner is acknowledging the existence of the top four browsers in the lower left corner: http://www.fontembedding.com/ |
| 17:07 | Philip` | wonders why Rob Burns thinks XML requires documents to have a doctype |
| 17:10 | <takkaria> | it's all about how you read the spec |
| 17:10 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: you mean like it's all a point of view? :-) |
| 17:10 | <Philip`> | I read it by opening the spec and searching for all mentions of "doctype" and "document type" and trying to find anything that indicates you must have one, and entirely failing |
| 17:11 | <takkaria> | hsivonen: well, in his field, he must argue a lot about how to best read a text; about the author's intentions, and such. and also what the most useful reading of a text would be |
| 17:11 | <Philip`> | I suppose you could read it by not actually reading it, and just knowing what it's surely meant to say, and if it turns out that's not what it says then the spec must be wrong |
| 17:11 | <takkaria> | when you get into literary theory, not even a good spec is straightforward. :) |
| 23:09 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: i think we have to disable the forums or change forum software or do something because the spam is not maintainable and the actual usage is pretty low anyway :( |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | pity |
| 23:10 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | want me to try upgrading it and see if there's anything helpful in newer versions? |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | do you have access to the actual files btw? or did i install it in my user or something? |
| 23:12 | <zcorpan> | perhaps phpbb3 has something? i don't think 2.0.23 has anything useful over 2.0.22 |
| 23:12 | <zcorpan> | i don't |
| 23:13 | <zcorpan> | afaik |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | oh i see them, they're in my user |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | ok looks like it's updated |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | to 3.0 |
| 23:14 | <zcorpan> | cool |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | did it have captchas before? |
| 23:15 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | want me to add this textual confirmation plugin? |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=544007 |
| 23:23 | <zcorpan> | sure |
| 23:24 | <zcorpan> | i'm going to bed now, i'll look again tomorrow. thanks! |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | nn |