| 01:08 | <Hixie> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2008Aug/0008.html is fantastic |
| 01:10 | <Hixie> | woot, html5 being used on actual google pages |
| 01:10 | <Hixie> | e.g. http://www.google.com/privacy.html |
| 01:36 | <jruderman> | what does that page use from html5? the short doctype and <meta charset>? |
| 01:37 | <jruderman> | innerHTML? ;) |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | the short doctype and the intent that it comply to html5 |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | as opposed to the usual google policy of "hey it works in ie" |
| 01:38 | <jruderman> | oh, wow, the use of <h1> and alt text at the top is beautiful |
| 01:45 | <jacobolus> | also, it cuts out the <head>, <body> tags, all unnecessary closing tags, etc. |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | indeed |
| 01:45 | <jacobolus> | what's the <div></div> about? |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | probably to hang style off |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | but i haven't checked |
| 01:47 | <billmason> | Looks like it just clears the floats from the lists of specific privacy policies above it. |
| 01:49 | <jacobolus> | ah, it does a { clear: left; } |
| 01:57 | <Hixie> | jesus, ITS is over-engineered for this. |
| 02:25 | <Hixie> | i really should figure something out as far as an event queue is concerned |
| 02:25 | <Hixie> | maybe i need to define the main event loop |
| 05:26 | <roc> | anyone know if the @font-face font linking in Safari 3.1 imposes a same-origin restriction on linked fonts, or can you link to any font on the Web from any page? |
| 05:37 | <bdash> | roc: it doesn't |
| 05:38 | <roc> | yeah, I just tested it myself, thanks |
| 05:38 | <bdash> | roc: there's a FIXME in the code that suggests that the policy is not set in stone though |
| 05:38 | <roc> | interesting |
| 05:39 | <roc> | I think we might want to impose a same-origin policy |
| 05:59 | <hsivonen> | roc: wouldn't same-origin policy prevent new business models? |
| 05:59 | <roc> | huh? |
| 05:59 | <hsivonen> | roc: like a foundry hosting a font and metering access |
| 06:00 | <roc> | we could support Access Controls for font file loads if the server with the font file wants to be more permissive |
| 06:09 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: thanks |
| 06:10 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I disagree. I think if your content and style are properly separated, your style can be written ahead of time enumerating the constructs you want to use. |
| 06:10 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: where a 'table with headings' is a construct |
| 06:11 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: not table with two columns and the second column takes percentages |
| 08:12 | <hsivonen> | hmm. GWT 1.5 RC2 is out |
| 08:12 | <hsivonen> | still using *old* versions of Gecko and WebKit |
| 12:18 | hsivonen | needs apache gzip negotiation for dummies |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core |
| 12:26 | <jcranmer> | bah, how do I send an |
| 12:27 | <jcranmer> | = in post data properly? |
| 12:27 | <zcorpan> | =3D ? |
| 12:36 | <gDashiva> | zcorpan: the entire spec is one huge issues block? :) |
| 12:40 | <zcorpan> | gDashiva: yeah |
| 12:40 | <zcorpan> | gDashiva: before i had notes all over the place, at least now they're all in 1 place :) |
| 12:41 | <gDashiva> | It does serve as a kind of pseudo-toc as well |
| 12:54 | <Lachy> | I have to buy myself a Drobo from the USA. It's 3 times more expensive to get the first gen (USB only, no firewire and no drives) in Norway |
| 13:22 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: got the "undef error - Insecure dependency in exec while running with -T switch at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/Mailer/sendmail.pm line 22." again |
| 13:26 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: :-( I don't know what to do about it. |
| 13:26 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 13:28 | <hsivonen> | JohnResig: you blogged about parsing HTML in JS earlier. I got GWT to compile the Validator.nu HTML Parser into JS: http://livedom.validator.nu/ |
| 13:28 | <JohnResig> | hsivonen: ah, neat |
| 13:32 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: cool |
| 13:45 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, could that be merged with Hixie's live dom viewer and made to show both the HTML5 parser and the browser DOMs side by side? |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: that should be technically possible |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I don't promise to do it right now |
| 13:54 | zcorpan | notes that <p><b><b><b><p>x<p>x<p>x is parsed differently in webkit and html5 |
| 13:56 | <zcorpan> | webkit ends up with 10 elements, html5 with 16 |
| 13:58 | <zcorpan> | with <p><b><b><b><b><b><b><b><b><b><p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x<p>x it's 28 vs 100 |
| 14:14 | zcorpan | sees window.parseHtmlDocument(textarea.value, iframe.contentWindow.document, afterParse, null); |
| 14:14 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: is there any documentation on how to use the js parser? |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: no |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | but I can document it here |
| 14:14 | <zcorpan> | cool |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | there is one tested entry point |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | (the above) |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | and one untested entry point |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | oops |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | correction |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | there's only one entry point |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | the first argument is the HTML5 source as a string |
| 14:16 | <hsivonen> | the second argument is a DOM document object, whose children will be removed and replaced by the result of the parse |
| 14:16 | <hsivonen> | the fourth argument is a function object that will be called when the parse finishes |
| 14:16 | <hsivonen> | s/fourth/third/ |
| 14:16 | hsivonen | can't count |
| 14:17 | <hsivonen> | the fourth argument is supposed to be an error reporting callback, but it's not implemented |
| 14:17 | <hsivonen> | so the fourth argument does nothing |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | so currently, the JS parser doesn't support fragments |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | and it can't attach to an existing tree without destroying it |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | I want to add those features in the future |
| 14:19 | <zcorpan> | was that what you had in mind as the second entry point? |
| 14:19 | <hsivonen> | the fragment entry point |
| 14:19 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 14:19 | <zcorpan> | thanks |
| 14:19 | <hsivonen> | but its design sucked, so I removed it |
| 14:19 | <hsivonen> | note that parseHtmlDocument returns before the parse is complete |
| 14:20 | <zcorpan> | hence the callback? |
| 14:20 | <hsivonen> | to avoid hanging the browser, the parser pumps data through itself using timeouts |
| 14:20 | <hsivonen> | yes, hence the callback |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | oh, and calling parseHtmlDocument overwrites the write and writeln methods on the document object that is passed to it |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | and replaces them with its own implementations |
| 14:23 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: this is all pretty neat work |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | thanks |
| 14:26 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: does the parser support innerHTML? |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: the Java code support the fragment cases, but the JS version doesn't provide entry to that code and doesn't overwrite innerHTML setters |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ok |
| 14:46 | <mpilgrim> | lachy or hsivonen or someone with blog.whatwg.org admin rights: can you create a category for "This Week in HTML 5"? (or give me admin rights so i can do it myself) |
| 14:47 | <Lachy> | mpilgrim, sure |
| 14:47 | <Lachy> | what do you want me to call it? |
| 14:47 | <mpilgrim> | no preference |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | html5-weekly |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | ? |
| 14:48 | <gDashiva> | as the html5 turns |
| 14:48 | <mpilgrim> | as long as it gets its own feed |
| 14:49 | <mpilgrim> | my boss's boss's boss wants to follow it |
| 14:49 | <mpilgrim> | seriously |
| 14:49 | <Lachy> | I was thinking weekly-review |
| 14:49 | <mpilgrim> | weekly-review works for me |
| 14:51 | <Lachy> | done and I added the first post too it already |
| 14:51 | <mpilgrim> | thanks |
| 14:51 | <mpilgrim> | so, nominations for this week's episode? |
| 14:51 | <Lachy> | http://blog.whatwg.org/category/weekly-review/feed works |
| 14:51 | <mpilgrim> | hooray |
| 14:52 | <mpilgrim> | i've already written up the bit about the navigator object |
| 14:53 | <Lachy> | outerHTML was apparently added. |
| 14:53 | <gDashiva> | huzzah |
| 14:54 | <Lachy> | xml:lang and lang are now allowed in both HTML and XHTML |
| 14:55 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: except xml:lang in HTML and xml:lang in XHTML are totally different |
| 14:55 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, yeah, I know |
| 14:56 | <hsivonen> | Almost every XMLism adopted in XHTML 1.0 causes trouble when mapping HTML5 to XML infoset |
| 14:57 | <Lachy> | were there backwards compatibility issues with doing magic namespace processing for xml:lang in HTML documents? |
| 14:58 | <jacobolus> | hsivonen: the livedom thing is neat |
| 14:59 | hsivonen | goes file browser bugs exposed by it |
| 15:00 | <jacobolus> | hsivonen: that could presumably be used to hack really old browsers to make proper doms, no? |
| 15:01 | <jacobolus> | (not that there's necessarily any particular use for that) |
| 15:01 | <hsivonen> | jacobolus: yeah, I want to make a library that sniffs for HTML5 parsing and if not present, document.writes <plaintext>, attaches the JS parser to the DOM and parses the plaintext content |
| 15:02 | <hsivonen> | jacobolus: I think such a JS library would be useful for bootstrapping SVG and MathML in text/html once new browsers support HTML5 parsing so that only old browsers would take a perf hit |
| 15:03 | <jacobolus> | ah, good point |
| 15:03 | <jacobolus> | also might help for support of the various structure tags |
| 15:07 | <jacobolus> | hsivonen: might also be nice to show a box with conformance problems in that page, if it's possible |
| 15:08 | <hsivonen> | jacobolus: I could add parser-level error reporting, but porting the entire conformance checker to JS is a bit too much :-) |
| 15:09 | <jacobolus> | hsivonen: or maybe just a button that says "check conformance" and sends the text out to your conformance checker, putting the problems found back in a box |
| 15:09 | <hsivonen> | GWT is pretty smart about removing dead code, though, so I'm pretty sure the code size would go up notably if the error reporting code didn't count as dead |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | jacobolus: perhaps when a browser ships with Access-Control support |
| 15:33 | <hsivonen> | has anyone figured out yet if the new <a> content models have uglier consequences than the <ins> content model? |
| 15:43 | hsivonen | finds it amusing that Hixie changed the ins/del content models in the same check-in |
| 15:43 | <gDashiva> | Isn't the new <a> content model just what the de-facto content model was all along? |
| 15:44 | <hsivonen> | gDashiva: I mean conformance consequences |
| 16:23 | <kangax> | is it possible to work with canvas in rhino? |
| 16:38 | <mpilgrim> | http://blog.whatwg.org/this-week-in-html5-episode-2 |
| 16:50 | mpilgrim | still can't believe he's getting paid for this |
| 16:52 | <MikeSmith> | mpilgrim: I think those writeups a massively good. It would so great if you can manage to keep doing them |
| 16:52 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie's productively might make pretty hard to keep up |
| 16:52 | <MikeSmith> | productivity |
| 16:54 | MikeSmith | wishes he knew what rhino is |
| 16:54 | <Dashiva> | MikeSmith: The javascript engine? |
| 16:55 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: for which browser? |
| 16:56 | <Dashiva> | None that I know of. It's a standalone thing. In java, even. |
| 16:56 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 16:56 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cscript%3Ea%3Cfoo%3Eb%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 16:57 | <zcorpan> | gives different result than http://parsetree.validator.nu/?parser=html5&content=%3C%21DOCTYPE+html%3E%0D%0A%3Csvg%3E%3Cscript%3Ea%3Cfoo%3Eb%3C%2Fscript%3E&submit=Print+Tree |
| 16:57 | <zcorpan> | intended? |
| 21:38 | <zcorpan> | http://www.brandonfrohs.com/2008/08/whatwg-they-know-html-dont-they/ |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | if mark's boss' boss' boss wants to follow the "This week in html5" stuff, that means my boss' boss does too |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | good to know! |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | guess i'd better stop slacking off |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | btw next time mark asks for someone to configure the whatwg blog for him or whatever |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | just make him an admin |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | :-P |
| 22:03 | <Dashiva> | We're the html-wg, not the pretty-sites-wg! |
| 22:03 | Lachy | commented too |
| 22:03 | <Lachy> | on the blog about the desing |
| 22:03 | <Lachy> | *design |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | originally when i read that blog post i thought he was going to compliment us on not wasting time with frivalous things |
| 22:04 | <Dashiva> | Although I must agree default phpbb is ugly like little else |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 22:05 | <Lachy> | the default wordpress is quite ugly too. But I don't have design skills to redesign it. |
| 22:05 | <jacobolus1> | Dashiva: and not just ugly on the outside |
| 22:05 | <Dashiva> | jacobolus: Don't remind me, please :) |
| 22:05 | <Lachy> | photoshop and other image editors are way too complicated for me to produce anything even remotely good looking |
| 22:06 | <jacobolus> | Lachy: what good looking are you trying to produce? |
| 22:06 | <jacobolus> | there are various simple image editors … |
| 22:07 | <Lachy> | jacobolus, put it this way: the design of http://lachy.id.au/ is about the limit of my design skills. I know how ugly it is, but regardless of the image editor, I don't have design skills. |
| 22:08 | <jacobolus> | I like the color scheme, but the design is very busy :) |
| 22:08 | <Lachy> | but if someone were to give me a photoshop mockup, I could cut out the images and code it in a matter of days |
| 22:09 | <Lachy> | initally, I liked the colour scheme too. I used a colour scheme tool to pick it. But I'm quite tired of it, since I've had the same design for 4 years now |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | ok i really think i'm going to have to define some sort of event loop |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | that will make things much simpler to specify in all the places where we have "and then at the next available opportunity..." stuff |