| 00:06 | <Hixie> | hey my interview is up |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=718 |
| 00:07 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, that's good news :) |
| 00:08 | <BenMillard> | do you want to bring the necessary network cable and learn how it all works so I don't have to? :P |
| 00:08 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, I've read this and it seems pretty exhaustive: http://mastergt.250free.com/GT4/LAN_GT4/GT4_LANs.html |
| 00:09 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, "While Ian and I have had our disagreements over a few details of the specification, I have come to respect him immensely for the work that he puts into the spec on a daily basis." I think anyone who gives you a chance has that experience. |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | aww |
| 00:17 | <Dashiva> | What a lie. We all know Hixie works most during the night ;) |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | i even mention that in the interview :-) |
| 00:19 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, you wrote "I don’t think that realistically speaking HTML5 is going to make people write better markup." Well, simplifying the markup for accessible tables will realistically improve new tables markup written by the sites which try to be accessible, once we have implementations showing how well it works. |
| 00:19 | <BenMillard> | although that's likely to be a minority of the web for some time yet, I must admit |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | yeah i think i go on to mention that we've done some things to make things a little better (like the /> thing) |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | i hope we have some effect, i'm just not holding my breath :-) |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | hsivonen said that in his study so far he has yet to find a single page with zero errors |
| 00:22 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, just saw this: "Can you justify the cost of coming for a whole week now?" hmm, that's an idea |
| 00:23 | <BenMillard> | since I'm paying an equal share anyway, I might as well be there for it :) |
| 00:23 | <Dashiva> | It feels like beekeeping pops up inordinately often in examples |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: it's not accidental |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: let me know if you can work out why :-) |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | (nothing to do with me or whatwg or html5) |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | though if you look at html5 it'll give you a hint |
| 00:26 | <roc> | ooh ooh I know this one |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | it's not very deep or anything |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | man, every time i look at this page i find more errors http://puysl.com/view.htm |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | and note that it was updated this month! |
| 00:31 | <Dashiva> | Is it like herding cats? |
| 00:31 | <Hixie> | it's a regularly updated page! |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: it's a reference to something that was mentioned in passing in the late 90s |
| 00:34 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, wow...that wins the prize for stupidest way to mark up table headers :) |
| 00:37 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, you said "A big part of my job ends up being reinterpreting what people are asking for into what they really want." I think that's what causes much of the initial confusion and feelings of being dismissed; it's a necessary but unnatural response. |
| 00:38 | <BenMillard> | (I mean, your response to those requests is necessary but unnatural, since they'd normally be taken on face value) |
| 00:40 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, I couldn't have put this better myself: "If there’s one thing I’ve learnt through the extensive research we’ve done for HTML5, it’s that authors, on the aggregate, act in very surprising ways that don’t really match my intuition." |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | http://junkyard.damowmow.com/338 |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: yeah, i think you're right (re: why people sometimes feel dismissed) |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | and sometimes i just do dismiss ideas because i don't understand them, probably :-) |
| 00:53 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: It's obviously just an example of distributed extensibility |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | http://junkyard.damowmow.com/339 is a saner size |
| 00:59 | <Hixie> | http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/6ycxe/html_youre_doing_it_wrong_based_on/ |
| 01:04 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, can you remember (or better yet, find) where in the logs we talked about meeting at TPAC 2008? I've spent an hour trying but failed completely. |
| 01:04 | <BenMillard> | oh, I guess it's possible the logging was down during the time we were talking about it... |
| 01:04 | <Hixie> | i don't recall talking much about it :-) |
| 01:04 | <BenMillard> | you only said an entry or two |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | oh that was yesterday iirc |
| 01:06 | <BenMillard> | aha, then it may have been in the small hours when logging wasn't working: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080827 |
| 01:06 | <BenMillard> | oh well |
| 01:22 | <guillebravo6> | I'm new to this group |
| 01:22 | <guillebravo6> | how's it going everybody? |
| 01:25 | <BenMillard> | hello there, guillebravo6 |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | welcome, guillebravo6 |
| 01:26 | <guillebravo6> | thanks guys |
| 01:26 | <BenMillard> | it's currently the middle of the night in Europe and quite late in USA, so not many people active AFAICT |
| 01:26 | <guillebravo6> | yeah I understand |
| 01:27 | <guillebravo6> | this is a reddit group right? |
| 01:27 | <guillebravo6> | are people on Digg, StumbleUpon, Delicious, etc.......? |
| 01:32 | <franksalim> | guillebravo6, what do you mean by a reddit group? i use reddit, but not in connection to #whatwg |
| 01:32 | <guillebravo6> | ok |
| 01:32 | <guillebravo6> | I wasn't sure |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | this is an irc channel for discussing html5 development as part of the whatwg.org project |
| 01:32 | <guillebravo6> | I was just browsing around and saw Reddit on this channgel |
| 01:32 | <guillebravo6> | *channel |
| 01:32 | <guillebravo6> | no biggie |
| 02:29 | <Hixie> | takkaria: yt? did you ever implement the svgwg proposal? |
| 02:49 | <takkaria> | Hixie: no, I didn't. I intended to but then Henri sent his rebuttal and I figured it was definitely not worth it |
| 02:49 | <Hixie> | k |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | right, feedback on the svgwg proposal sent |
| 04:25 | <Hixie> | is there anything i should be working on? |
| 04:25 | <Hixie> | i'm out of prioritised stuff, so if there's anything important for me to work on, let me know |
| 04:25 | <Hixie> | otherwise i'll just go back to dealing with the oldest feedback |
| 04:32 | <jcranmer> | Hixie: specifying what should happen if authors don't comply? |
| 04:33 | <jcranmer> | e.g., where should they send their first-borns? |
| 07:19 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: well, obviously, there are no pages with no errors when you move the goalposts from HTML 4.01 Transitional |
| 07:36 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: oh, right, you're assuming html5 |
| 07:37 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: do you have the ability to do html4 transitional validation? |
| 07:42 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I have to the precision validator.nu can now do it |
| 08:17 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: that... wasn't english. but i assume it's a yes? :-) |
| 08:18 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: it was a yes. (s/have to/have, to/) |
| 08:19 | <Hixie> | ohh, i see what you're saying |
| 08:38 | annevk | could bring a Wii |
| 08:42 | <annevk> | haha, IE8 has a "Compatibility View" button |
| 09:22 | <annevk> | http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/programming-and-development/?p=718 is good Hixie |
| 09:22 | <Hixie> | cool, glad you like it |
| 09:49 | <Lachy> | From the interview: "Another topic that’s received a lot of feedback is that we dropped acronym in favor of just using abbr, and a lot of people complained, though few could agree on what exactly the two elements would mean if we kept both." |
| 09:49 | <Lachy> | the only viable solution if both were kept, is to define both as synonyms of each other |
| 10:19 | <zcorpan> | interesting, instead of setting status to "fixed", microsoft set it to "not reproducable" when a bug i've reported has been fixed in ie8b2 |
| 10:20 | <zcorpan> | though perhaps that's a good way to get the fix verified by the reporter |
| 10:23 | <Philip`> | I've had two marked as Fixed |
| 10:23 | <Philip`> | (and they are actually fixed, I think) |
| 10:24 | <Philip`> | but one Not Reproducible, and I don't think it's actually fixed but maybe my test case was unreliable |
| 10:27 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: interesting typo in "how often the local property is within the namespace" |
| 10:27 | <Hixie> | (property is -> properties) |
| 10:30 | <Lachy> | OMG, Microsoft's download site for IE8 popped up an ad for me to install silverlight, even though I still have silverlight installed from when I needed it to watch videos on nbcolympics.com |
| 10:31 | <Hixie> | lordy, now hsivonen is suggesting that whatwg.org use a CDN. :-P |
| 10:31 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: fwiw, i think you'd save time by learning those 3 namespace URIs |
| 10:32 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: instead of looking them up |
| 10:32 | <Hixie> | i never learnt the HTML4 DOCTYPE |
| 10:32 | <Hixie> | that's the main reason for the HTML5 synax. :-D |
| 10:32 | <zcorpan> | http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml http://www.w3.org/2000/svg http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink |
| 10:32 | <zcorpan> | <!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"> |
| 10:33 | <zcorpan> | gotta to |
| 10:33 | <zcorpan> | go |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: not a typo. artifact of a different text input method |
| 10:35 | <Lachy> | I learned all the HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0/1.1 DOCTYPEs. It's not that hard, since the follow a common pattern |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: no, I suggested that only n.whatwg.org be on a CDN |
| 10:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: with xmlns dereferencing going on, it seems like a bad idea that W3C isn't separating its ns URIs from the rest on the DNS level |
| 10:36 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, wouldn't that be a costly thing to maintain? |
| 10:36 | annevk | read http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/history found http://www.hixie.ch/specs/html/apps/web-apps-1 and realized almost nothing survived |
| 10:37 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Pay for it by embedding adverts |
| 10:37 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: yes. the point of what I wrote is to shield people who don't want the Power of RDF from the RDF Tax. However, someone needs to pay for the CDN |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: so to make the cost entirely borne by the RDF community, you'd need a way to make the RDF community to pay the CDN bill |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | I haven't learden the HTML 4 doctypes either. I always copy them from my doctype page |
| 10:39 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yeah that was intentional when i minted n.whatwg.org |
| 10:40 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: speech recognition eh? how is it going? |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: needs fixing |
| 10:41 | <Lachy> | Philip`, adverts on a server intended purely for delivering machine processable data, rather than human consumable data, seems rather ineffective. |
| 10:43 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Not at all - you just have to exploit how the machines process that data, so that the adverts get shown to those machines' users |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: speech recognition is more accurate than Ink, though |
| 10:43 | <Hixie> | yeah well |
| 10:43 | <Hixie> | ink sucks :-P |
| 10:43 | <Lachy> | although I don't particularly like the whole idea, one way to pay for it would be to require software that intends to use it, has to pay licence fees. That way it's paid for by those who use it. |
| 10:43 | <Hixie> | that would work |
| 10:44 | <Hixie> | we could optimise away actually setting anything up if we did that |
| 10:44 | <hsivonen> | lol |
| 10:44 | <Philip`> | Use Google Cache as a free CDN |
| 10:44 | <Lachy> | LOL |
| 10:45 | <hsivonen> | speaking of free CDNs, what pays for Coral? |
| 10:45 | <Lachy> | or Freenet |
| 10:45 | <hsivonen> | is NYU bankrolling it out of the goodness of their hearts? |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | CDN? |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | Content Distribution Network |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | ta |
| 10:48 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: I think it's running on PlanetLab, which I think is mostly run by universities, presumably from various sources of research funding |
| 10:49 | <Lachy> | oh, cool. it works http://lachy.id.au.nyud.net/log/ |
| 10:53 | <Philip`> | "As of January 2006, it receives about 25 million requests per day from more than 1 million unique clients." - that sounds like it's probably only tens of megabytes a second, which isn't particularly extreme |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I could put accessibility APIs to use and define Typinator macros for namespace URIs |
| 11:25 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: on a.v.n/htmlparser/, "The parser core compiles on Google Web Toolkit and in being made more portable to other programming languages.", s/in/is/ |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: fixed. thanks |
| 11:27 | <annevk> | Lachy, why the double domain? |
| 11:28 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: your TreeBuilder interface is quite an interesting view into what i specced |
| 11:28 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: what is startTag() used for? |
| 11:31 | <Lachy> | annevk, .nydu.net is the Coral CDN. http://www.coralcdn.org/ |
| 11:31 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the tokenizer calls startTag() when it reports a start tag token |
| 11:31 | <Hixie> | sure but why? |
| 11:31 | <Hixie> | as in, what was your use case? |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | the code for processing start tag tokens needs to be somewhere |
| 11:32 | <hsivonen> | the code structure is inspired by SAX |
| 11:32 | <Hixie> | oh you mean that's the method where you have to implement the whole tree construction? |
| 11:33 | <annevk> | Lachy, interesting |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | havinge a SAX-inspired structure has certain benefits: |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | 1) I can make a streaming SAX mode with reasonable ease |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | 2) I avoid heap-allocating objects for tokens |
| 11:34 | <Hixie> | oh i agree that sax makes sense, and i understand the concept of calling a method for each type of token |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | 3) the tree builder rules are easier to implement token-major mode-minor than the way the spec puts them |
| 11:34 | <Hixie> | i was just looking to see what one would have to implement to get document.write() |
| 11:35 | <Hixie> | since you mention having to implement TreeBuilder to get that |
| 11:35 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: TreeBuilder and Tokenizer don't implement document.write(). |
| 11:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: they just have capability to get out of the way |
| 11:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: see gwt-src |
| 11:36 | <Hixie> | is that online anywhere? |
| 11:36 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the subclass of TreeBuilder there requests suspensions when it wants a script to run |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: no, not as HTML. only in the .zip |
| 11:37 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | and in svn |
| 11:37 | <Hixie> | oh well no worries, i was just poking around |
| 11:37 | <Hixie> | putting off replying about irrelevant="" |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | when suspension is requested, control returns from the Tokenizer to the driver that pushes data to tokenizer |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | so that class is responsible for holding onto the remainder of the buffer that was being tokenized |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | and pushing the document.write stuff meanwhile |
| 11:38 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | the code breaks with nested document.write in Gecko and with nested SVG scripts, ATM |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | those are a pain to get right |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | my next item is figuring out how nested scripts run in XML |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | even in english those were a pain to get right |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | nested scripts fail in html5 right now |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | as in, the spec is wrong |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | in fact <script> in general fails in html5 right now in xml |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | I think the code exposes a difference in Gecko and WebKit script executino details |
| 11:39 | <Hixie> | assuming the parser inserts the element before the element's children |
| 11:40 | <Hixie> | (not sure how to fix it, since there's no xml parser spec) |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: SAX to DOM tree building is well understood |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: it's the exact byte of WF error that is ill-defined |
| 11:41 | <Hixie> | yeah i'll probably just say "for html documents: when it is inserted... for xml documents: when you parse the end tag..." |
| 11:43 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: conceptually, it would be nice if HTML side inserted early, too, but started execution at end tag |
| 11:44 | <Hixie> | we could do that i guess |
| 11:44 | <Hixie> | though then we have to handle DOM-append separately from parser-append |
| 11:44 | <hsivonen> | yeah. |
| 11:44 | <Hixie> | which will make things exciting for you over in GWT land |
| 11:45 | <Hixie> | and we have to handle parser-append followed by DOM-append of the same node followed by parser-end-tag |
| 11:45 | <Lachy> | woo hoo! A new "interoperable" DRM scheme that invades my privacy by requiring me to register my devices. Just what I wanted! http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080827-open-market-video-drm-aims-to-let-1000-retailers-bloom.html |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | the gwt land code fakes "start execution on end tag" by inserting a placeholder and replacing it on end tag |
| 11:45 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: nice |
| 11:45 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: hope nobody takes a reference to the fake :-D |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: so I naively thought that having one level of placeholders was OK |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: until zcorpan tried to nest SVG scripts |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan always finds holes in my code |
| 11:46 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | Hixie, any chance the icons for the Web Apps spec can be hosted on whatwg.org? all the extra requests are a bit of a pain |
| 12:05 | <Lachy> | OMG, IE8b2 still hasn't fixed that annoying bug/design flaw with Ctrl+L. It should focus the address bar like a normal browser, instead of popping up the Open URL dialog :-( |
| 12:05 | <Hixie> | the reason they aren't is to avoid any suggestion of copyright violation. (why are they a pain?) |
| 12:05 | <Hixie> | Lachy: use alt-d, most browsers support that too |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | fetching them just seems painfully slow |
| 12:06 | <Lachy> | oh, I didn't know that. But I'd prefer if Ctrl+L worked, since that's what I'm used to, and I use Cmd+L for Mac browsers |
| 12:13 | <Hixie> | Lachy: (or f6, in ie) |
| 12:13 | <Hixie> | annevk: odd |
| 12:15 | <Lachy> | woah, IE's comment handling is buggered up. http://html5.lachy.id.au/output?data=%3C%21DOCTYPE+html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctitle%3EBogus+IE8+Conditional+Comments%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3EYou+should+not+see+anything+below+this+line.%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3C%21--%5Bif+IE+lt+8%5D%3EFAIL%3C%21%5Bendif%5D--%3E&type=text%2Fhtml%3B+charset%3DUTF-8 |
| 12:15 | <Lachy> | that's an incorrectly written conditional comment, but still, ouputting it like that seems wrong |
| 12:15 | <Hixie> | what does it do? |
| 12:16 | <Lachy> | It outputs "<!--[if IE lt 8]>FAIL<![endif]-->" literally on the page |
| 12:16 | <Hixie> | woah |
| 12:16 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 12:16 | <Lachy> | note that the conditional comment should actually be [if lt IE 8] for it to work as intended, but I always get it backwards |
| 12:17 | <Lachy> | where do I file bugs for IE? |
| 12:18 | <Hixie> | i believe prayer is the most effective method |
| 12:19 | <Dashiva> | I seem to recall there being some internal thing that you had to pass through five NDAs to reach, and then needed invitation |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | yeah, there is somewhere, but I can't remember where it is |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | Dear Microsoft Gods, please fix the bugs I have found with your browser. Amen. |
| 12:21 | <Dashiva> | Why limit yourself to only the bugs you found? :) |
| 12:22 | <Lachy> | it's not as if they're miracle workers. I at least need to give them some info about what is wrong. |
| 12:23 | <Hixie> | the gods aren't miracle workers? |
| 12:23 | <Lachy> | Hixie, just the microsoft gods. |
| 12:23 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 12:26 | <hsivonen> | w00t. making typinator macros for ns uris was a good idea |
| 12:27 | gsnedders | sighs |
| 12:27 | <gsnedders> | the TPAC is going to be crazy fun. Two PS2, three geeks, are far too much geekery |
| 12:28 | <Lachy> | grr. Apparently, it's supposed to be connect.microsoft.com where you can submit bug reports. But after signing in, it asks me to update my profile. I check that everything is ok, click continue and it takes my right back to the beginning. |
| 12:28 | <Lachy> | Now, where do i file a bug report about the bug reporting system? |
| 12:28 | <Hixie> | q.v. earlier comments |
| 12:29 | <Lachy> | maybe I should just complain directly to Chris Wilson |
| 12:31 | annevk | learns about "conundrum" |
| 12:31 | <Lachy> | ah, I see. The website only works in IE |
| 12:33 | gsnedders | wonders what you do if an IE8 beta has a bug stopping you from using that site. |
| 12:37 | <Lachy> | I don't know. but I can't actually find the Report a damn bug link, or equivalent anywhere. |
| 12:38 | <Lachy> | this is getting annoying |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | Hixie, dom-command-ro-hidden is removed from IDL (where it was dom-command-hidden) but not from prose |
| 12:38 | <Lachy> | although I can see one bug listed that I had filed in 2006 about another product. Still not fixed :-) |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | + title="command-element">command</code>, <code |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | + title="bb-command">command</code>.</p> |
| 12:38 | <annevk> | also seems wrong |
| 12:39 | <Hixie> | dom-command-ro-hidden and dom-command-hidden are unrelated |
| 12:39 | <Hixie> | one is gone the other is not |
| 12:39 | <Hixie> | fixed the bb issue |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | oh, there's a separate Command interface? |
| 12:40 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 12:40 | <Hixie> | not quite sure what i'm gonna do with it |
| 12:40 | <Lachy> | ah, apparently I need to register as a beta tester to do it. http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/30/wanted-ie8-beta-testers.aspx |
| 12:40 | <Hixie> | we'll see |
| 12:40 | <hsivonen> | bah. SVG elements don't have innerHTML in Gecko. |
| 12:41 | <annevk> | Hixie, I think the thing with the icons is that it takes some time to make the request to all these other servers, which gives quite a bit of overhead over it all coming from whatwg.org |
| 12:41 | <Hixie> | annevk: so? |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | in Opera that delays search interaction with the document |
| 12:42 | <Hixie> | annevk: file a bug |
| 12:43 | <Hixie> | on a totally different note, wtf is up with my mac's menu widget things. every now and then, the time machine menu, the bluetooth menu, and the wifi menu go totally batshit crazy, reverting to their initial settings and losing all interaction. |
| 12:43 | <Hixie> | e.g. the wifi icon disappears and it claims to be offline in the menu, even though wifi is fine |
| 12:43 | <Hixie> | and the bluetooth menu reverts to kThisThat menu labels |
| 12:43 | <Hixie> | and the time machine menu says no backup ever ran |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | Gecko and WebKit have XHTML and SVG nested script execution interop |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | and XHTML and SVG are consistent |
| 12:43 | <hsivonen> | Opera does something crazy |
| 12:43 | <Philip`> | Lachy: For registering connect.microsoft.com, try not using Opera - I think I had problems with that |
| 12:44 | <Hixie> | seems to happen around the same time that iTunes freaks out over my iPod touch and starts not recognising it |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | demo: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/script-execution.xhtml |
| 12:44 | <Hixie> | i wonder what on earth is up with this machine |
| 13:45 | annevk | almost replied to RB |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | I have like 400 e-mails in drafts |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | a lot of it is probably due to Opera's autosave feature though |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | haha |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | blog: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/7585098.stm |
| 13:45 | gsnedders | wonders whether to just call the specGen cameleon and be done with it |
| 13:45 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, chameleon is spent with an h, unless the misspelling is intentional |
| 13:45 | <Lachy> | in which case, I think it's a bad name |
| 13:45 | gsnedders | yawns |
| 13:45 | <Lachy> | pick a name that's easy to spell and is relevant |
| 13:45 | gsnedders | is half-asleep |
| 13:49 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: What is relevant though? htmlpostprocessor? |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | call it sg |
| 13:49 | <gsnedders> | sg? Why? |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | it's consistent with the linux approach of using the shortest possible, and totally unclear abbreviations for command names |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | sg = Spec Gen |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | I thought alonis was quite good |
| 13:49 | <Philip`> | You have to have versioning information in case you release another one later, so you'd have to call it SG-1 |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | Philip`, that's what I was thinking :-) |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | SG-1 wfm |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | I don't like the hyphen in command names though |
| 13:49 | gsnedders | bets SG-1 is a trademark |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | use alonis then and move on |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | what is alonis? |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | or chameleon |
| 13:49 | <Philip`> | Trademarks don't have global scope |
| 13:49 | <gsnedders> | sg is bad anyway because it isn't really specific to specs |
| 13:49 | <Philip`> | so it's only a problem if someone has released similar software under a trademarked name SG-1 |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | Lachy, a species |
| 13:49 | <gsnedders> | annevk: No anoles is |
| 13:49 | <Lachy> | really? what kind of animal? |
| 13:49 | <gsnedders> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoles |
| 13:49 | <gsnedders> | Lizard |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | oops |
| 13:49 | <gsnedders> | anolis is a genera of the anoles though |
| 13:49 | <gsnedders> | seemingly |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | right, I did mean Anolis |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | oh well, need to go somewhere |
| 13:50 | <gsnedders> | Anolis it is. |
| 13:50 | <Philip`> | Anoliser |
| 13:50 | <gsnedders> | But versioning may be useful |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | gsnedders, don't worry about versioning too much until it becomes an actual problem |
| 13:53 | Lachy | moans about the choice of a terrible name and moves on. Oh well. |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | deployment of this tool is not going to be widespread anyway |
| 14:24 | <Lachy> | Hixie, bug in the spec update notification script: "This specification has been updated. You are reading r2120 but the latest revision is r2119 ("Rename the 'irrelevant' attribute to 'hidden'.")" |
| 14:40 | <krijnh> | (Sorry for crappy connection & logs) |
| 14:40 | <gsnedders> | If anyone finds any bugs in <http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html>;, do tell me |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | notice that it things 2120 is older than 2119 |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | woah, this mail gives some interesting insight into the way authors might abuse workers in inefficient ways. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0823.html |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: The copyright statement is a smaller font than in the whatwg.org version |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | Maybe that's because the whatwg.org version is in quirks mode? |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | Philip`, is that in Opera? It's the same size in Firefox. |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | Ooh, I've found a bug: The new spec-gen uses unquoted attributes and therefore the source looks hideous |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Yes |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | oh, yeah, it should use quoted attributed cause they do look better |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, is the attribute quoting an optional feature? |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | Philip`, in IE, the copyright statement is larger in the whatwg.org version :-) |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | hooray for interopability! ;-) |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | It's called "quirks" for a reason :-) |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | hmm. weird. I just realised that Snickers in Norway have white-coloured nougat, wheras in Australia, they have chocolate-coloured nougat |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | Does anyone happen to know how http://philip.html5.org/docs/quirks.txt would need to be updated for IE8? |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | Philip`, no idea. But if you have a TC, I can run it for you |
| 14:40 | <kangax> | Lachy: white-colored in US as well |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | what?! OMG! that's crazy |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I have some code to test quirks/standards, but I'll need to extend that to detect the quirks/IE7-bugs/IE8-bugs modes, which I suppose I'll do at some point in the future |
| 14:41 | <Lachy> | kangax, is it the same with milky ways too? |
| 14:44 | <Lachy> | Anyway, just 24 days till I get back to eating normal coloured, correctly named chocolate bars :-) Woo Hoo! |
| 14:44 | <Philip`> | kangax: Most non-trivial canvas tests don't work in Excanvas at all |
| 14:45 | <krijn> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20080828 - yuk! Does this happen a lot? |
| 14:45 | <Philip`> | Also I couldn't get Excanvas to work at all in IE8b1 |
| 14:45 | <kangax> | damn |
| 14:45 | <Philip`> | In any case it's likely to be the same as in IE <8, because nobody uses VML so they wouldn't have put any work into optimising it, I assume |
| 14:46 | <kangax> | Philip`: have you heard of any progress about silverlight-based excanvas? |
| 14:46 | <kangax> | (their google group seems to be somewhat dead) |
| 14:47 | <Philip`> | kangax: I'm not aware of any IE canvas implementations that have got much beyond proof-of-concept stage |
| 14:51 | <kangax> | Philip`: I wish I had some time to tackle with it. Currently working on a parser that allows to output "svg path" on canvas. |
| 15:21 | <Lachy> | and that way you don't end up with some attributes having quotes where necessary, and others not, within the same document. Rather, you end up with everything being consistent |
| 15:22 | <gsnedders> | Hixie doesn't seem to quote everything either |
| 15:23 | <Philip`> | He's crazy too |
| 15:23 | <gsnedders> | Whoever thought any of us were sane though? |
| 15:23 | <Philip`> | Unquoted attributes are objectively ugly, and if you disagree then you're wrong |
| 15:25 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Time for your medication again I see ;) |
| 15:26 | gsnedders | wonders whether he can take more paracetamol yet |
| 15:26 | jgraham | has no objection to changing html5lib defaults here fwiw |
| 15:26 | <jgraham> | Nor to leaving them as is |
| 15:27 | gsnedders | notes that changing them will break backwards compatibility, as the option names will have to be changed |
| 15:27 | <gsnedders> | Or maybe not |
| 15:27 | gsnedders | headdesks |
| 15:27 | gsnedders | wakes up |
| 15:27 | <gsnedders> | The option names in parse.py at least, as --quote-attr-values no longer makes sense if it defaults to True if you want to disable it |
| 15:28 | <Philip`> | Add '--no-...' versions of all those options, so people can always be explicit and not rely on the defaults |
| 15:29 | <Lachy> | jgraham, if anyone here needs medication, it's the crazy people who leave attributes unquoted, and maybe the leprechauns running around this office making noise. But sane people like Philip` and I don't! |
| 15:29 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Real sprites, or not? |
| 15:30 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, what? |
| 15:30 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: leprechauns and sprites, no? |
| 15:30 | <gsnedders> | *are |
| 15:30 | <Lachy> | oh, I didn't realise it meant that too |
| 15:30 | <Lachy> | yeah |
| 15:31 | <gsnedders> | Because that would be kinda awesome if you did have sprites running around your office :) |
| 15:32 | <Lachy> | actually, I should have gone with trolls. I'm told they're a norwegian creation, so it would make more sense than an irish creation :-) |
| 15:32 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 15:33 | Philip` | has a reasonably large collection of trolls (humanoid creatures made of some sort or rubber or plastic, with long brightly-coloured hair) in a box in a cupboard somewhere at home |
| 15:34 | <Lachy> | I never had a troll doll. Though they were reasonably popular when I was a kid |
| 15:34 | <Lachy> | I think they were more of a girly thing |
| 15:34 | <gsnedders> | What does that say about Philip`? |
| 15:35 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, nothing. I assumed she was a girl all along. Was I wrong? |
| 15:35 | <Philip`> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_doll - aha |
| 15:35 | <Philip`> | They weren't girly! >:-( |
| 15:35 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: He doesn't look like one, at lesat |
| 15:35 | <gsnedders> | *least |
| 15:35 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: And his voice is a bit deep for a girl |
| 15:35 | <gsnedders> | s/He/It/ |
| 15:35 | <gsnedders> | s/his/it/ |
| 15:37 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, since I've never met him/her in person yet, I'll have to take your word for it. :-) |
| 15:37 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: :) |
| 15:37 | <Philip`> | I might have hired an actor to pretend to be me, to disguise my real identity |
| 15:37 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Also, I can't show you a photo of it because its reaction to being photographed |
| 15:39 | <Lachy> | Philip`, sure, the pink hair and the fact that it was a doll definitely doesn't make it girly. Sorry ;-) |
| 15:41 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I don't think I had any with pink hair - they were mostly yellow and green, as far as I can remember |
| 15:42 | <Philip`> | And I don't think I ever heard them called "troll dolls" before today - they were just trolls, in the same way that you get Action Mans and not Action Man dolls |
| 15:44 | <Lachy> | OMG! found more UI bugs in IE8. this is terrible |
| 15:45 | <Philip`> | And anway I think I mostly made cars crash into them, rather than combing their hair or whatever girls would do |
| 15:45 | <Philip`> | s/terrible/beta/ |
| 15:45 | <Lachy> | s/beta/lower-than-alpha/ |
| 15:46 | <Lachy> | this latest bug is: Resize the window, press Ctrl+W to close all tabs till the window itself closes. Then restart IE, and it reopens at the size it was before resizing it. |
| 15:47 | <Lachy> | Do the same, but use the close button instead of Ctrl+W, and it remembers the last size properly |
| 15:50 | gsnedders | had one or two trolls, and did what Philip` didn't, and did what girls would do |
| 15:50 | gsnedders | ducks |
| 15:51 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, fair enough. I'm sure they helped you practice before messing with your own hair. |
| 15:51 | Lachy | ducks |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | hmm… |
| 15:51 | gsnedders | does have relatively long hair at the moment |
| 15:51 | <Lachy> | you should dye it bright green and take a photo for us |
| 15:51 | <Lachy> | then I can use that in my next presentation |
| 15:52 | <Lachy> | I'll need it before about the end of september. My presentation is on October 7th |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | A girl at school was saying I ought to dye it green |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | (bright green, that is) |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | I don't think my mother would approve, though |
| 15:53 | <Philip`> | Wear a hat, so she wouldn't notice |
| 15:53 | <Lachy> | well, you've got to give into peer pressure. You don't have a choice about that. |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | :S |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders> | *:D |
| 15:53 | Philip` | also has a large cuddly troll with a hood |
| 15:53 | gsnedders | wonders where he could get green hair dye |
| 15:54 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, hair salon |
| 15:54 | gsnedders | realizes he knows people at school who would know |
| 15:54 | <gsnedders> | Like, specifically around here |
| 15:55 | <Lachy> | or perhaps you can get that spray on stuff from the supermarket that kids often used to wear to school swimming/athletics carnivals at my school, based on their team colours |
| 15:55 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: That's boring. |
| 15:56 | Lachy | wonders if gsnedders is actually going to go through with it if he finds out where to get it |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Quite possibly :) |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | But it'll probably end up like all kinds of things I've said I'll do but never do |
| 15:56 | <Lachy> | great! I look forward to it. |
| 15:56 | Lachy | changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! - gsnedders promised to dye his hair green, photos coming soon :-)' |
| 15:57 | <gsnedders> | hah. |
| 15:57 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Use radium |
| 15:57 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Slightly risky. |
| 15:58 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Sure, but it's worthwhile for glow-in-the-dark hair |
| 15:58 | <Lachy> | I think it's home time. I'm going to go pull out my transformers and play with some real boys toys! |
| 15:58 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Like hair straighteners? |
| 15:59 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, no. Transformers! |
| 16:01 | gsnedders | notes the girl at school also said to wait for my hair to longer first |
| 16:01 | <gsnedders> | s/my/his/ |
| 16:01 | <Philip`> | s//$verb/ |
| 16:02 | gsnedders | notes girls are crazy |
| 16:02 | gsnedders | ducks |
| 16:02 | mpt | flees as the channel fills with an infinite number of verbs |
| 16:03 | <Philip`> | mpt: I didn't use /g :-p |
| 16:04 | <Philip`> | (and it wouldn't be infinite anyway unless there was an external loop) |
| 16:04 | <Philip`> | and anyway these are context-sensitive regexps that only apply to the (unspecified) appropriate point of the appropriate line |
| 16:05 | <Philip`> | (I don't think even Perl has implemented that much DWIM yet, sadly) |
| 16:18 | <gsnedders> | If I'm going to do this, I may as well do everything else that I wanted to do to change how I look that my mother will disapprove of too |
| 16:18 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: No, I haven't yet |
| 16:19 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: That does not necessarily make sense, unless she simply has a boolean "approve"/"disapprove" thought process |
| 16:20 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I am aware it doesn't really make sense. But nothing else that I would do to change how I look would have any worse reaction that dying my hair green. |
| 16:24 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, if you get it done then make sure it's expensive |
| 16:24 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: That doesn't make sense either, since disapproval is usually based on an additive function rather than a max function, so one extreme act plus one minor act is worse than just the extreme act by itself |
| 16:24 | <BenMillard> | otherwise it's likely to be a lousy job that sucks badly |
| 16:24 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Peh. It gets it over and done with. |
| 16:24 | <Philip`> | BenMillard: At least it'd be a lousy job that sucks badly and was cheap |
| 16:24 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: But I have next to no money :P |
| 16:25 | <gsnedders> | If I can raise £n, I will dye my hair! |
| 16:25 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 16:25 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, then your finances can act as a throttle to your mother's disapproval :) |
| 16:25 | <BenMillard> | i.e. you can only annoy her to the extent you can afford it |
| 16:25 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: :) |
| 16:26 | <BenMillard> | but I should point out that you could try asking first |
| 16:27 | <BenMillard> | I imagine she grew up during the 1980's so doesn't have much of a case against you adopting a crazy appearance |
| 16:28 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: My parents are old. Really old. |
| 16:28 | <BenMillard> | in that case the playing field is even more in your favour :) |
| 16:28 | <BenMillard> | until you get pre1960's, at least |
| 16:28 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: My mother is during WWII :) |
| 16:29 | <BenMillard> | oh, lol |
| 16:29 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: And there should be no apos. in either 1960s or 1980s |
| 16:29 | <gsnedders> | my father is months after the end |
| 16:29 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: I did say old:) |
| 16:29 | <gsnedders> | (hi mum!) |
| 16:30 | <BenMillard> | "... all intranet websites display in Internet Explorer 7 Standards mode ..." -- http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/08/27/introducing-compatibility-view.aspx |
| 16:30 | <BenMillard> | so much for competition |
| 16:56 | <Dashiva> | The metadata will save us (after the tools save us from the metadata) |
| 20:29 | <annevk> | hmm, IE8 standards mode killed the createElement workaround? |
| 20:30 | <Lachy> | annevk, do you mean the one that fixes the parsing of unknown elements? |
| 20:30 | <Xenos> | annevk: Doesn't have as much ring to it as "video killed the radio star", but good try |
| 20:31 | <annevk> | omg, IE8 killed <canvas> |
| 20:31 | Lachy | tries it |
| 20:31 | <annevk> | (though that's not entirely true, <canvas> workarounds existed before the createElement workaround was discovered (again)) |
| 20:33 | <Xenos> | How did IE8 kill <canvas>? It's not like IE's had any support for it so far? |
| 20:33 | <annevk> | people used createElement as part of <canvas> workarounds |
| 20:33 | <Lachy> | annevk, it works for me |
| 20:33 | <Lachy> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.createElement(%22xxx%22)%3B%3C%2Fscript%3E%0D%0A%3Cxxx%3E%3C%2Fxxx%3E |
| 20:34 | <annevk> | ok, good |
| 20:34 | <Lachy> | in what way did it kill canvas? |
| 20:34 | annevk | read it here http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/08/28/Improved-Namespace-Support#c1219939338 |
| 20:34 | <annevk> | Lachy, see above |
| 20:35 | <Philip`> | annevk: What people used createElement for that? |
| 20:35 | <annevk> | (the <canvas> thing was just a more dramatic statement of my initial one for Xenos) |
| 20:35 | <Philip`> | (Excanvas just looks for the CANVAS and /CANVAS elements, and replaces that range with a new element) |
| 20:35 | <annevk> | Philip`, someone at Google? dunno, only heard this through proxy |
| 20:36 | Philip` | really wishes that pressing tab in IE's address bar would focus the search box, not the refresh button |
| 20:36 | <Lachy> | oh, crap. http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3Exxx%20%7B%20color%3A%20green%3B%20%7D%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.createElement(%22xxx%22)%3B%3C%2Fscript%3E%0D%0A%3Cxxx%3Etest%3C%2Fxxx%3E |
| 20:37 | <Lachy> | while the createElement workaround fixes the parsing, it doesn't seem possible to style it |
| 20:37 | <annevk> | meh |
| 20:39 | <Philip`> | It seems you can't style psuedonamespaced elements either |
| 20:39 | <Philip`> | like <style>a\:b{...}</style><body xmlns:a><a:b>...</a:b> |
| 20:39 | <Philip`> | s/ue/eu/ |
| 20:41 | <Lachy> | ok. We'll need to make sure they get bugs about these, especially the ones that aren't very forwards compatible with HTML5 |
| 20:42 | <Lachy> | Philip`, if could you do it, since you're able to? I would, but they haven't got back to me yet |
| 20:43 | <Xenos> | https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/Feedback is the place to do it, I think |
| 20:43 | <Lachy> | I get page not found |
| 20:43 | <Xenos> | And then spam the people here and on the mailinglist to rate up the bugs we consider important |
| 20:44 | <Xenos> | Hm, weird. I got there by following a link on https://connect.microsoft.com/site/sitehome.aspx?SiteID=136 |
| 20:44 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Can do |
| 20:45 | <Lachy> | Xenos, it may be because I'm not an authorised beta tester yet. Are you? |
| 20:45 | <Xenos> | Nope |
| 20:45 | <Lachy> | I get 404 following that other link as well |
| 20:45 | <Xenos> | just googled for "internet explorer beta 2 feedback" and clicked the third result, which led me to page above which led on to first link I posted |
| 20:46 | <Lachy> | the first result I get for that search is http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/30/wanted-ie8-beta-testers.aspx |
| 20:46 | <annevk> | Lachy, you said "No, it is not a good idea to place constraints on the development of HTML based on the flaws of other tools/langauges", just on the flaws of browser tools then? |
| 20:46 | <Xenos> | Lachy: third result |
| 20:46 | <Xenos> | And try http://connect.microsoft.com/IE/Feedback instead, might be some https issue perhaps? |
| 20:47 | <Lachy> | annevk, that was in realtion to XSLT, and I meant authoring tool design flaws |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | I don't see how those shouldn't affect us |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | in fact, they already have, see eg /> |
| 20:48 | <Lachy> | well, it's 7th result for me, and I still get 404 |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | or xmlns="..." |
| 20:48 | <Xenos> | Lachy: Much strangeness. |
| 20:49 | <Lachy> | they're still complaining about not being able to output <!DOCTYPE html> using XSLT |
| 20:49 | <Lachy> | even though it can be done by disabling output escaping and doing it literally |
| 20:50 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/tests/ie8/cases/unknown-element-styling.html |
| 20:50 | <annevk> | wouldn't it be better to get IE fixed so you can simply emit XML from XSLT? |
| 20:50 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/tests/ie8/x-ua-ie7/cases/unknown-element-styling.html |
| 20:50 | <annevk> | what's the use of emitting text/html out of XSLT over text/xml ? |
| 20:51 | <Lachy> | Philip`, the 2nd TC passes in IE8 |
| 20:51 | <Lachy> | the 1st fails |
| 20:51 | <Lachy> | annevk, I didn't think anyone said anything about text/xml |
| 20:51 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Both pass in IE7 |
| 20:52 | <Philip`> | and the second passing in IE8 indicates that IE8's IE7 compatibility mode is compatible with IE7, which is good |
| 20:53 | <annevk> | Lachy, I'm just wondering |
| 20:55 | <Lachy> | both TCs pass in IE6 too |
| 20:57 | <Lachy> | the annoying thing about switching to IE running in VMware is making my fingers press the right keyboard shortcuts |
| 20:59 | <Lachy> | ha! microsoft.com is in the default list of websites that render in IE7 mode |
| 20:59 | <Philip`> | Does anyone have IE8b1 to test in? |
| 20:59 | <Xenos> | I must disagree. "the annoying thing about switching to IE" is leaving behind half your IQ :p |
| 20:59 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I can install it quickly, if you like |
| 21:00 | <Lachy> | well, not quickly. I need to make a copy of the VM, find the installation file if I've still got it, and then spend 20 mintes waiting for it to finsih |
| 21:00 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Hmm, probably no need, since I think someone would have noticed if that test case wouldn't have worked in IE8b1 |
| 21:01 | <Xenos> | No wonder, Lachy: Having microsoft.com working well is a pretty important PR thing, and redeveloping microsoft.com for each beta would be pretty damn expensive :p |
| 21:01 | <Lachy> | I should probably install it anyway. But I have a problem, cause I need to maintain separate virtual machines to run each version of IE: IE6, 7, 8b1 and 8b2 |
| 21:02 | Lachy | removes it from the list and takes a look... |
| 21:05 | <Lachy> | hmm, interesting. Regardless of whether it's in the list, it seems to always render in compatibility mode and the option to switch it is disabled. |
| 21:05 | <Lachy> | I wonder if they've set X-UA-Compatible or something to make it do that (which would be a more forward compatible approach, than effectively hard coding it into the browser |
| 21:06 | <Lachy> | yes: X-UA-Compatible: IE=EmulateIE7 |
| 21:07 | <Lachy> | oh, they also have an option to display all intranet sites in compatibility mode, selected by default, or all websites in compat mode, unseleced by default |
| 21:23 | <Philip`> | https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=364356 |
| 21:25 | <annevk> | nice |
| 21:27 | <Philip`> | Does http://philip.html5.org/tests/ie8/cases/dynamic-class-sibling-restyle.html look green to anyone? |
| 21:27 | <Philip`> | (in IE8) |
| 21:43 | Philip` | wonders what the point is in giving credit to people using two letter initials, so that nobody knows who it is and you're bound to get collisions |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | I suspect Hixie can extrapolate the full name |
| 21:45 | <annevk> | mine is three letter btw |
| 21:45 | <gsnedders> | mine is two letter |
| 21:45 | hober | contemplates "<brb>" for the browser button element... :) |
| 21:46 | <annevk> | <browserbutton> would work |
| 21:46 | <annevk> | it's not like you'd use it all over |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/JohnBoyer?entry=the_ubiquity_strategy_for_promoting |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | "More importantly, this means that the W3C, not the browser makers, defines the web and its standards." |
| 21:50 | <annevk> | (the problem with all his cheering of course is that if you build everything on top of AJAX, you're still limited by what browser engines support) |
| 21:51 | annevk | replies |
| 21:51 | <Philip`> | If you build everything on top of AJAX, you don't need standards |
| 21:52 | <annevk> | that too :) |
| 21:52 | <Philip`> | You can just bundle the application with its AJAX scripts and there's no need to put up with the pain of standardisation |
| 21:52 | <annevk> | (though you need them for AJAX, to make sure it works in browsers) |
| 21:52 | <gsnedders> | I'm not built on top of AJAX, but there's no human standard |
| 21:52 | <annevk> | fail |
| 21:54 | <annevk> | Philip`, heh, thanks for backing up thoughts by facts :) |
| 21:55 | <Philip`> | Facts are easier than thoughts |
| 21:55 | <Philip`> | As long as you don't analyse them, you can't be wrong |
| 22:00 | Philip` | wonders why he keeps getting given mod points on Slashdot even though he let the last ~75 points expire |
| 22:01 | <Lachy> | Philip`, go use them to mod me up |
| 22:03 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Because you comment around the median and have good karma |
| 22:03 | <Philip`> | Lachy: That would be immoral :-p |
| 22:04 | gsnedders | changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- gsnedders promised to dye his hair green, photos coming soon :-)' |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Double hyphens are used everywhere else in the topic. Please be consistent changing it! |
| 22:05 | <Lachy> | Philip`, here's an interesting comment from a user I don't know that should be modded up. http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=914095&cid=24784973 |
| 22:05 | gsnedders | had mod points till yesterday |
| 22:05 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, sorry, I didn't realise |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: heh. |
| 22:05 | <annevk> | /. still popular? |
| 22:05 | annevk | thought it was all reddit |
| 22:05 | <Lachy> | annevk, no |
| 22:06 | <Lachy> | I never read reddit |
| 22:06 | <gsnedders> | /. > digg > reddit |
| 22:06 | <Lachy> | http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/08/28/1855213 |
| 22:06 | <annevk> | digg over reddit? |
| 22:07 | <annevk> | crazy |
| 22:07 | <gsnedders> | annevk: The content that gets on digg is better, even if the comments are even worse |
| 22:07 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Why do you think hard drives would last any longer while unused than DVDs? |
| 22:07 | annevk | looks on /. |
| 22:07 | annevk | finds http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/08/08/28/1855213.shtml |
| 22:07 | <Lachy> | annevk, I just posted that link |
| 22:08 | Philip` | has disabled display of the whole YRO section |
| 22:08 | <Lachy> | Philip`, they last longer because as I move the data around to different drives, the data is copied and backed up |
| 22:08 | gsnedders | thinks Philip` has no rights online |
| 22:08 | <gsnedders> | You girl! |
| 22:09 | <Lachy> | also, after I get a drobo, it will take care of maintaining the data and redundancy for me |
| 22:09 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Ah |
| 22:09 | <Philip`> | Lachy: -1 Off-topic, since copying data between drives means your point is irrelevant when considering 25-year storage :-p |
| 22:10 | <Lachy> | my advice wasn't to use the hard drives in the time capsule. My advice was to stick USB thumb drives in there, and also maintain an unburied copy to cheat |
| 22:11 | <Philip`> | Because the tiny electronic charge on flash memory is going to last for decades? |
| 22:13 | <Lachy> | Philip`, yes |
| 22:13 | <Lachy> | well, I think so. I can't remember what the life of them is, but I thought it was pretty long |
| 22:14 | <annevk> | I just hope my various hosting providers copy it all losslessly year after year |
| 22:14 | <annevk> | and if that doesn't happen, oh well |
| 22:15 | gsnedders | wonders how much eyeliner costs |
| 22:16 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, don't tell me someone talked you into wearing eyeliner as well as dying your hair? |
| 22:17 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: No, but if I do one, I'm doing both. |
| 22:17 | <gsnedders> | I wanted to do both before anyone started trying to talk me into it |
| 22:18 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, don't spoil the fun for us by ruining my delusion that peer pressure made you do it |
| 22:18 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 22:18 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: The big duo of you and a girl from school |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | (Actually, she's quite a bit shorter than me, and I don't know how tall you are) |
| 22:19 | <Lachy> | I'm 2m tall |
| 22:19 | <Lachy> | I assume you're quite a bit shorter than me :-) |
| 22:21 | <gsnedders> | around 20cm shorter |
| 22:24 | <gsnedders> | I ought to write a more sensible about me page |
| 22:50 | <annevk> | Would the RDF idea still work good enough if you take out URIs and make it work using the CSS prefix-name model? |
| 22:57 | <sicking> | Hixie, ping |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | heya |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | wassup |
| 23:02 | <jgraham> | I was just thinking "oh were it that I had a whole pile of email about RDFa, why then I could be truly happy" |
| 23:02 | <jgraham> | and I have |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | Hixie, <browserbutton> seems simple enough |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | jgraham: bet you my pile is bigger (http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#rdfa) -- and i have to reply to mine... |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | annevk: i guess |
| 23:03 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Fair enough :) |
| 23:03 | <jgraham> | But you get paid to do it :) |
| 23:07 | <annevk> | Hixie, fwiw, when you replied to the e-mail, did you fix the example typo? |
| 23:07 | <annevk> | doesn't seem like you did |
| 23:07 | annevk | reported a typo and a suggestion to change the name |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | annevk: you were the third person to report the typo and i have fixed it in the source but not regenned |
| 23:18 | <annevk> | Hixie, the third, how nice |
| 23:19 | <annevk> | Hixie, based on some status thing it was reported twice internally too :) |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | :-P |
| 23:19 | <annevk> | your typoes cost a lot of money |
| 23:19 | <annevk> | :) |
| 23:21 | <BenoitRen> | Hello. |
| 23:22 | <BenoitRen> | Is it all right to ask for help with HTML semantics here? |
| 23:22 | <annevk> | #html might be better for that, this channel is mainly concerned with developing the next version of HTML |
| 23:22 | <annevk> | though feel free to ask |
| 23:23 | <BenoitRen> | I'm already using HTML5 semantics in a way, so... |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | you can ask help questions, you might just get turned into a lab rat as part of it :-) |
| 23:24 | <annevk> | BenoitRen, ah, HTML5 semantic questions prolly best go here, yes :) |
| 23:24 | <BenoitRen> | I've been working on and off on my site that hosts the script to a video game. I've been marking up the dialogue with the dl element. |
| 23:24 | <BenoitRen> | Basically, using it like <dialog>. |
| 23:24 | annevk | is completely confused by Kristof latest |
| 23:25 | annevk | is glad he stepped out of the thread |
| 23:25 | <BenoitRen> | Apart from plain dialogue, you can also talk to non-playable characters, which I mark up by using an unsorted list in the <dd> element. |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | Kristof's* grmbl |
| 23:26 | <BenoitRen> | My current problem is that during talk, things might be happening. Like, a character moves, or mist appears, etc. |
| 23:26 | <annevk> | ah yeah, I think we have some open issue on that |
| 23:27 | <BenoitRen> | I'm not sure how to handle that. Do I use close the dialog and make a <p>aragraph about it? Do I put it on a separate line in the character's dialog? Behind the line? |
| 23:27 | <annevk> | I think Hixie punted on it for now |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | right now you have to close the dialog |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | and put a paragraph |
| 23:29 | <BenoitRen> | "right now"? |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | as in, the way the spec stands today |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | i see the spec has no example of that |
| 23:31 | <BenoitRen> | <dl><dt>Man</dt><dd><ul><li>I like flowers.</li></ul></dd></dl><p>A pig flies by.</p><dl><dt>Man</dt><dd><ul><li>What was that?</li></ul></dd></dl><p>An explosion occurs.</p><dl><dt>Man</dt><dd><ul><li>What's happening?</li></ul></dd></dl> |
| 23:32 | <annevk> | why the <ul><li> ? |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | BenoitRen: that's right, except using <p> instead of <ul><li> :-) |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | unless the guy is really saying a list of items :-) |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | like reciting a shopping list or something :-) |
| 23:34 | <BenoitRen> | Because as I said above, NPCs can say multiple things by talking to them more than once, which I denote with a list. To be consistent I also use with dialogue between multiple people. |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | (and the <p> is semantically implied, so you could drop that too if you don't care much for styling it) |
| 23:34 | <BenoitRen> | *also use it with |
| 23:34 | <BenoitRen> | As in: |
| 23:34 | <Hixie> | BenoitRen: you mean multiple different things and you only pick one? |
| 23:35 | <BenoitRen> | Hixie: No. You talk to an NPC the first time, she says A. You talk a second time, and she says B. |
| 23:35 | <BenoitRen> | <dl><dt>Woman</dt><dd><ul><li>A</li><li>B</li></ul></dd></dl> |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | ah, interesting |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | multiple <dd> would actually be better, but that's probably not allowed right now |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | so is this just a data storage mechanism, or is it the actual elements that the user sees? |
| 23:37 | <BenoitRen> | Yeah, I recently learned you can have multiple <dd>s with one <dt>, but the HTML5 spec disallows that in <dialog>. |
| 23:37 | <BenoitRen> | It's for an actual web page. |
| 23:37 | <BenoitRen> | So yes, the user sees it. |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | oh it's like a walkthrough and you're showing the various things someone says? |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | not sure we really have a good way to mark that up today. i guess <ul> is an ok workaround for this case. |
| 23:38 | <BenoitRen> | I guess you could see it like a walkthrough, yes. You see the entire game, like a script. |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | yeah i didn't really even consider that case when writing the spec for it |
| 23:40 | <BenoitRen> | I first used plain text files. But then I had to start using coloured text as the game used them in special quests, so I just put it in a plain page with <pre>. and used <font>. This was back when I didn't know about the right way to do things. |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | hehe |
| 23:40 | <BenoitRen> | Then I used <cite> with <blockquote>, and finally now <dl>. |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | yeah that's why we introduced <dialog>, to make it less confusing about what the heck to use for this kind of stuff :-) |
| 23:41 | <BenoitRen> | Though my website only reflects my dark ages days... |
| 23:41 | <BenoitRen> | Yeah, it's a good idea. :) |
| 23:51 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Re: <bb>, how about <bob>? |
| 23:51 | <gsnedders> | it's only one letter more |
| 23:52 | <sicking> | annevk, so am I reading the spec wrong, or does AC only let you specify one name in the Access-Control-Allow-Methods/Headers headers? |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: heh |
| 23:53 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: On another note, I shipped Anolis (the new name for the spec-gen) 1.0RC1 today |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | woo |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | is it ready for use? |
| 23:53 | <gsnedders> | yup. |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | sweet |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | uri? |
| 23:53 | <gsnedders> | The only way any bugs that haven't all ready been found are going to be found is by getting thousands of people looking at a doc processed by it :) |
| 23:53 | <gsnedders> | http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/ |
| 23:54 | <gsnedders> | I need to fix a bug on the real website, so that'll have to suffice |
| 23:54 | <Philip`> | Let me know if you're going to change the HTML5 spec to use it, since I'll have to rewrite all the spec-splitter's section listing |
| 23:55 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Re-write it to operate as a process within anolis! |
| 23:55 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Thereby not needing to parse the entire spec again |
| 23:56 | <BenoitRen> | So for the current spec I have to close <dialog> and use a <p>aragraph. But I'm interested in other possible solutions that could get included in the spec later. Ideas? I can't come up with more than <span class="note">earthquake</span>, and that's not semantic... |
| 23:56 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: That'd be trivial if there's just a lxml tree, I think |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i'm going to change the HTML5 spec to use it |
| 23:56 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: There is |
| 23:57 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I should have said "Let me know when ..." :-) |
| 23:57 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I have a draft email to you about moving to use it |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | so does anyone want to host this as a web service somewhere? |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | Philip`: my plan was now :-) |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i can keep on using the old one for the spec splitter until you're ready |
| 23:57 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Is there some way to plug such a processor into your spec-gen? |
| 23:58 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I'll host it, if someone writes a web interface :) |
| 23:58 | <Philip`> | (since it shouldn't be an integrated part, because it's too hard-coded for the HTML5 spec) |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: no need for a web interface, i just need something i can do a GET on (with a URI in a parameter) and have it return the resulting html |
| 23:58 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: See second paragraph http://hg.gsnedders.com/hgwebdir.cgi/anolis/raw-file/1c14b53c4a45/README.html#using-anolis |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | personally i'd prefer if it wasn't actually part of the same script, to be honest :-) |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | i like being able to generate te spec separte from splitting it :-) |