| 00:26 | <Lachy> | Hixie, yt? |
| 00:29 | <Lachy> | Hixie, in your live dom viewer script, within the update() function, what's the purpose of using a timeout for this: setTimeout(updateDOM, 100); instead of just calling updateDOM(); directly? |
| 00:33 | <Philip`> | Is that the one that prevents the thing updating at more than 10Hz, to avoid thrashing your CPU if you're typing fast? |
| 00:34 | <Lachy> | no, there's a timeout within the updateInput() function for that purpose |
| 00:37 | <Lachy> | this timeout gets called after the parsing has already been done, and updateDOM() just updates the various outputs, such as the innerHTML and DOM tree views |
| 00:38 | <Lachy> | so it seems there is little to gain from using a timeout here, at least as far as I can tell |
| 02:29 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, yt? |
| 02:39 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, nevermind |
| 02:55 | <Lachy> | I got my local copy of the HTML Tools beta working with both browser based and HTML5 based parsing using hsivonen's parser. Now I just need to implement the UI for switching between them |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | Lachy: so that any timeouts in onload handlers in the subdocument get processed before showing the dom |
| 10:01 | hsivonen | fishes the draft TAG finding on versioning did more to highlight how CSS has it right |
| 10:01 | <hsivonen> | s/fishes/wishes/ |
| 10:02 | <hsivonen> | weird typos |
| 10:37 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: unfortunately people on the tag like versioning |
| 10:38 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: so they are unlikely to pay too much attention to what are the actual success stories (css, dom) and failures (js, html, xml) |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I think I'll take the time to comment anyway |
| 10:54 | <hsivonen> | Comparing CSS and HTML, the big problem with distibuted extensibility in HTML is that instead of an element having a set of properties/attributes on equal footing, one property--the element name--is special |
| 10:55 | <hsivonen> | so an element can't be -webkit-canvas, -moz-canvas, -o-canvasw -ms-canvas and canvas at the same time |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | also,the canvasness is less optional than rounded corners |
| 11:03 | <hsivonen> | I wonder how thing would be different if the element name was just another boolean attribute |
| 11:03 | <hsivonen> | so that <p> was syntactic sugar for <p=""> |
| 11:08 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, there's a bug in livedom.validator.nu, it doesn't fire onload events |
| 11:08 | <Lachy> | http://livedom.validator.nu/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Afunction%20init()%20{%0A%20%20w(%22init%22)%3B%0A}%3C%2Fscript%3E%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3D%22init()%22%3E |
| 11:09 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: yeah, known bug |
| 11:09 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 11:10 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I think putting time into full emulation like that wouldn't be justified by the reason why I made the parser work in GWT |
| 11:11 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: however, I want to expand it to cover other purposes, but I can't justify speding time on those things right now |
| 12:30 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, I may have an easy way to implement it without too much trouble |
| 12:31 | <Lachy> | I also have a way to make it dynamically set quirks and standards mode |
| 12:35 | <Lachy> | hmm, it may only work in Firefox. I'll investigate it more |
| 14:19 | <Lachy> | damn, I hate working with IE8. It's painfully slow, incredibly unstable and throwing up bogus security warnings! :-( |
| 14:20 | <Lachy> | and every time it crashes, it clears my clipboard! wtf? |
| 14:24 | <Lachy> | hmm, it's not actually clearing the clipboard, but after it crashes, it has trouble pasting until I recopy. |
| 14:24 | <Lachy> | maybe that has something to do with running it in VMWare ThinApp inside VMWare Fusion |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | ok, I found and diagnosed a crash bug in IE8. Is anyone here able to file a bug? Here's a test case http://lachy.id.au/dev/2008/ie8b2-crash.html |
| 14:41 | <Philip`> | Can't you file a bug? |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | no, I never got given the ability. |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | but I need to fix the TC, I just realised the pass condition is wrong, and revealed another bug in Firefox |
| 14:44 | <Philip`> | I think I still have invitation codes, if you want one :-) |
| 14:45 | <Lachy> | sure |
| 14:46 | <Lachy> | this is annoying. Thanks to IE8 continually trying to reopen a crashed page, it gets into a continuous crash and relaunch cycle :-) |
| 14:57 | <hsivonen> | does bug filing access come with some bad NDA stuff? |
| 15:03 | <Philip`> | There's not a real one, like on paper with signatures or anything |
| 15:03 | <Philip`> | I don't remember whether there's a checkbox saying "I agree not to tell people about blah blah blah" |
| 15:04 | <Philip`> | (As far as I can tell, the aim is just to improve the signal-to-noise ratio, not to keep anything secret) |
| 15:08 | jgraham | resists the temptation to suggest whatwg⊙wo as the html5 non-accessibility list |
| 15:08 | hsivonen | already resisted |
| 15:09 | <takkaria> | does that mean you're done with resisting and are now going to suggest that? :) |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: no, I moved onto some more email |
| 15:10 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: According to my textbook, \frac{d\e^{3x}}{dx} = \e^{3x} * 3 per the chain rule — how does the power not decrease? |
| 15:10 | gsnedders | doesn't get how you do it through the chain rule |
| 15:10 | <Dashiva> | jgraham: It's true, though |
| 15:11 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: d(e^a) -> d(a) * e^a? |
| 15:11 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: yeah |
| 15:12 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: it says you do that per the chain rule, but that would involve decreasing the power by one |
| 15:12 | <Dashiva> | Why? |
| 15:13 | <jcranmer> | d [ f(g(x))]/dx = f'(g(x)) * g'(x). |
| 15:13 | <gsnedders> | Well, (x+y)^a would be d(x+y) * (x+y)^{a-1} |
| 15:13 | <gsnedders> | *a |
| 15:13 | <jcranmer> | since d[e^x]/dx = e^x |
| 15:14 | <Dashiva> | But you're not derivating with respect to e |
| 15:14 | <gsnedders> | True. |
| 15:14 | gsnedders | headdesks |
| 15:14 | <jcranmer> | d[e^(3x)]/dx = f'(g(x)) * g'(x) = f(g(x))*g'(x) |
| 15:14 | <Dashiva> | It's more related to 3^x than x^3 |
| 15:15 | <Dashiva> | And ln e = 1, so the log part cancels out |
| 15:15 | <Dashiva> | (or something, been some years since I did this) |
| 15:15 | gsnedders | missed all the teaching on differentiating exponents and logarithms |
| 15:16 | <Dashiva> | That would explain things :) |
| 15:16 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 15:33 | <hdh0> | http://packages.ubuntu.com/intrepid/abrowser ubuntu debrands firefox |
| 15:36 | <Philip`> | hdh0: Am I right in understanding that the branded version of Firefox is still available, and abrowser is just an independent package for silly people to choose? |
| 15:38 | <hdh0> | yes, firefox-3.0-branding versus abrowser-3.0-branding |
| 15:46 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: Some people can't handle the truth |
| 15:49 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: What truth? |
| 15:50 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: see about 40 minutes ago |
| 15:50 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Wrong. There is no spoon. |
| 15:56 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Incidentailly "proving" the chain rule turns out to be not so hard, at least to my satisfaction |
| 16:06 | <Philip`> | "I'm Feeling Lucky" is reasonable text for a UI button, but it really doesn't seem appropriate for an API call (http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/images/imageclass.html#Image_im_feeling_lucky) |
| 16:07 | Philip` | wonders why they didn't just call it auto_adjust or something |
| 17:00 | <gsnedders> | Hmmmm. |
| 17:01 | <gsnedders> | \pi d-\frac{4000}{d^2} = 0 — solve for d. |
| 17:01 | gsnedders | can't remember how to do that at all |
| 17:10 | <Philip`> | Multiply both sides by d^2? |
| 17:12 | gsnedders | doesn't think this question should be so complex, and guesses his whole approach for solving it is wrong |
| 17:14 | <Philip`> | I'm not sure if I'm misreading or misunderstanding, but it seems trivial :-p |
| 17:16 | <Dashiva> | Is d a variable, or derivation? |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: Variable |
| 17:16 | <Dashiva> | looks like a regular quadratic |
| 17:17 | <Philip`> | Doesn't look like that to me |
| 17:17 | <Philip`> | Just multiply by d^2, add 4000, divide by pi, cube root, and maybe simplify a bit |
| 17:17 | <gsnedders> | I ought to start my physics homework, regardless of all this damned maths |
| 17:18 | <Philip`> | (Am I missing something obvious?) |
| 17:18 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: yes |
| 17:19 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: You end up with \frac{d^2+4000}{\pi} = d^3 when you say to take a cube root |
| 17:19 | <Philip`> | Are you thinking that 0*d^2 = d^2? |
| 17:20 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: yes :) |
| 17:20 | <Dashiva> | Oh, I thought it was pi/d, my misreading |
| 17:20 | <Philip`> | Hint: 0 != 1 |
| 17:20 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: NO WAI |
| 17:36 | <Philip`> | (Unless I'm mistaken, I guess 0!=1 is true in general for any abstract algebra with more than one element, given the usual definitions of 0 and 1, or something, so it's not just a fluke of integer arithmetic) |
| 18:21 | hsivonen | wonders if Gandi is going to keep their pricing after beta |
| 18:22 | <hsivonen> | they seem to have globally the best RAM per euro deal |
| 18:23 | <hsivonen> | Dreamhost PS is actually pretty bad in terms of RAM per euro despite the exchange rate of the dollar |
| 18:32 | <Philip`> | Dreamhost PS doesn't even seem to give you root access, so you can't have fun compiling your own kernels and so on |
| 18:33 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I haven't had a need to compile the kernel on my server. In general, I don't like becoming an accidental sysadmin |
| 18:34 | <Philip`> | That sounds quite sensible :-) |
| 18:34 | <hsivonen> | I compared prices on Xen hosting, and this is what I learned |
| 18:34 | Philip` | finds it odd that Dreamhost advertises a $5.95/month rate, which only applies if you pay for ten years in advance, which is almost as long as the HTML5 timetable - who's going to know they're still going to want a web server that far in the future? |
| 18:35 | <hsivonen> | my current host (kotisivut.com in Finland) has competitive RAM per euro pricing compared to anything except Gandi and Amazon EC2 |
| 18:35 | <hsivonen> | Amazon EC2 does not scale down |
| 18:35 | <hsivonen> | Gandi isn't quite ready yet |
| 18:35 | <hsivonen> | Bytemark hasn't been able to keep up with Xen-based competition |
| 18:35 | <hsivonen> | Dreamhost PS is surprisingly uncompetitive |
| 18:36 | <hsivonen> | companies in the Netherlands and in the UK have insane prices compared to Finland, France and the US |
| 18:36 | <hsivonen> | so my current host seems very good compared to anything but Gandi |
| 18:36 | <hsivonen> | and Gandi seems almost too good to be true |
| 18:37 | <hsivonen> | anyway, I sent email to Gandi requesting a beta invite |
| 18:37 | <Philip`> | Have you found anything about differences in reliability and support? |
| 18:37 | <hsivonen> | no |
| 18:38 | <hsivonen> | but my current host doesn't say anything about CPU shares |
| 18:38 | <hsivonen> | while Amazon and Gandi say what you get |
| 18:39 | <hsivonen> | oh, and Amazon has totally different disk persistence characteristics |
| 18:39 | Philip` | presumes CPU is harder to advertise since it can be very bursty, whereas RAM can't |
| 18:39 | <hsivonen> | I'm also surprised that googling for Xen hosting didn't turn up any Swedish or Estonian offerings |
| 18:40 | <hsivonen> | perhaps they don't do business in English or something |
| 18:47 | <hsivonen> | I want to see this area of business evolve into a model where someone own the datacenters and provides Xen paravirtualization and block storage, then someone else provides as open source on top of that App Engine -like automatic scaling so that the system is commodity open source and you can move to a different service provider |
| 18:48 | <hsivonen> | I think Amazon SimpleDB and App Engine are services that should be there, but using that high-level software shouldn't lock me in to a particular data center owner |
| 18:50 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if there are some savings in Amazon running SimpleDB themselves instead of a third party running CouchDB on top of Amazon EBS and selling that service |
| 21:21 | <hsivonen> | it's been over a month since the last standards suck episode |
| 21:23 | <Dashiva> | Maybe they stopped sucking |
| 21:29 | <Lachy> | I uploaded the latest copy of the HTML5 Tools http://html5.lachy.id.au/beta/ - this one has both HTML5 and browser parsing in it |
| 21:30 | <Lachy> | but there's a bug I cannot figure out with the switching between the 2 modes |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%22html%205%22 is also worth tracking |
| 21:43 | <hsivonen> | lots of people tweeting about one article... |
| 21:46 | <Philip`> | Are they tweeting because of the article, or tweeting because of other people tweeting about the article? |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | hsivonen, yeah, the last few are indeed not that useful |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | and arguably before that not too much either, but still, it's rather easy to follow |
| 22:56 | <tusho> | Why is it an error to explicitly close self-closing tags? |
| 22:57 | <tusho> | <link></link>, <input></input> etc |
| 22:57 | <annevk> | those are void elements and have a special syntax |
| 22:57 | <annevk> | i.e., <link> or <link/> |
| 22:57 | <tusho> | annevk: yes, but I don't see why it should be an -error- to close them explicitly |
| 22:57 | <tusho> | just optional |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | because people would be confused and think they can put stuff between those two tags |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | and because <br></br> means <b><br> rather than <br> |
| 22:58 | <annevk> | means <br><br>, sorry |
| 22:58 | <tusho> | annevk: it's just that i programmatically generate html and it's a lot easier to treat all tags equally |
| 22:59 | <nessy> | is that really the case? I don't seem to remember that being the general xml rule |
| 22:59 | <annevk> | nessy, it's the HTML rule :) |
| 23:00 | <annevk> | tusho, keeping a set around and doing a simple if x in set is not an option? |
| 23:00 | <tusho> | annevk: well, it is, but still :\ |
| 23:00 | <nessy> | http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-starttags <- has the <br</br> example |
| 23:01 | <nessy> | I think in this case we should stick with the general xml rule - this is totally non-intuitive and confusing |
| 23:01 | <annevk> | nessy, tusho, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbr%3E%3C%2Fbr%3E |
| 23:01 | <nessy> | it's also not the way it works in HTML4 |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | nessy, in HTML4 <link></link> is an error too |
| 23:02 | <nessy> | really? |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | yes |
| 23:02 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#h-12.3 "Start tag: required, End tag: forbidden" |
| 23:03 | <annevk> | HTML4 does not even allow <link/> |
| 23:06 | <nessy> | glad browsers are not that anal :) |
| 23:06 | <nessy> | I guess then it's a tradition |
| 23:09 | <annevk> | Hixie, the methods are still on HTMLFormElement? |