| 00:03 | <jgraham> | hixiehttp://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/ |
| 00:03 | <jgraham> | Er, let's try that again |
| 00:03 | <jgraham> | Hixie, gsnedders: http://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/ |
| 00:04 | <jgraham> | That domain name is not stable |
| 00:04 | <jgraham> | (i.e. I might change it later) |
| 01:22 | <Lachy> | Hi everyone |
| 01:23 | <Hixie> | hey |
| 01:24 | <Lachy> | it's good to be able to have internet again, anything interesting happen with the spec over the past week? |
| 01:25 | <Lachy> | oh crap, my whatwg and public-html folders are up to 800 unread emails :-( |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | jgraham: shoul i see something at http://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/ ? |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | http://anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk/?url=http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-whatwg seems very slow |
| 01:27 | <Lachy> | I'm officially on holidays this week, so I should have time to catch up. The conference was quite good last week |
| 01:27 | <Hixie> | which conference? |
| 01:28 | <Lachy> | Web Directions South |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 01:28 | <Lachy> | the one I came to Australia for |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | right |
| 01:29 | <Hixie> | any interesting things happen there? |
| 01:29 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith's HTML5 presentation was quite good |
| 01:30 | <Lachy> | annevk2, I recorded 2 more episodes for standards suck |
| 01:30 | <Lachy> | I'll send them to marcos soon |
| 01:32 | <llimllib> | Am I correct reading the spec that there's no way to query a canvas for its transformation matrix? |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 01:33 | <llimllib> | thanks, making sure before I go try and maintain that info myself |
| 01:40 | <llimllib> | I think it would be cool if HTML 5 had a texpath() method like nodebox's ( http://nodebox.net/code/index.php/Reference_|_textpath() ), and I've implemented a Java applet that does text rendering and will let me play with hypothetical APIs for it ( http://github.com/llimllib/javatext ). Is this a thing that could hypothetically make the spec someday? Is there any interest in such a thing? |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | yeah there's a plan to eventually have path objects |
| 01:41 | <llimllib> | nice |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | once we have that we'll be able to render text on path objects and convert the result to path objects, etc |
| 01:41 | <llimllib> | I implemented it because I've got half of a nodebox reimplementation in javascript, and I need textpath() |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 01:42 | <takkaria> | I genuinely don't understand chaal's belief that if you want to extract SVG from HTML you might not need an HTML parser, or that the SVG WG's proposal would be better than the commented-out one for implementation... |
| 01:45 | <llimllib> | where should I go to find what's already been written about path objects? |
| 01:46 | <llimllib> | I'd like to catch myself up, if possible |
| 01:47 | <othermaciej> | takkaria: his claim that Opera's core engine team thinks the SVG WG proposal is easier to implement kinda makes me want to get independent verification |
| 01:47 | <Philip`> | I'm not aware of anything that has been written, other than people saying the phrase "path objects" sound like a good idea |
| 01:48 | <llimllib> | fair enough |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | I think text on a path is best added to CSS |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | you shouldn't be forced to make your text impossible to select, copy, or search just to make it flow along a path |
| 01:51 | <llimllib> | My interest is in things like this: http://nodebox.net/code/index.php/LetterKnitter ; at some point it's not necessarily valuable as selected text |
| 01:53 | <llimllib> | How do you select text that's not in rows anyway? How would you select text that followed a circular path around a block of text in the middle, but not the text in the middle? Is that the behavior you want? |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | llimllib: nothing is written about it yet as far as i know |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | certainly on the whole we want to encourage text to be in css |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | er |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | html |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | styled with css |
| 02:09 | <llimllib> | certainly |
| 02:13 | <llimllib> | currently, the ability to save a canvas creates a clean separation between text in canvas and text outside, AFAICS. Should there be text which is both styled with CSS and able to be saved with getImageData? |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | jgraham: sweet, your script seems the fastest |
| 02:24 | Hixie | sets up his script so it runs anne's, jgraham's, and bert's, and uses whichever one returns first |
| 02:38 | <takkaria> | redundancy ftw |
| 02:49 | <Hixie> | jgraham, gsnedders: looks like anolis does some bad things |
| 02:49 | <Hixie> | probably due to using libxml2's serialiser |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | it sticks a lot of newlines in unexpected places |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | e.g. before </code> and </a> |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | or around <style>...</style> blocks |
| 02:50 | <Hixie> | it totally screws up idl blocks |
| 02:51 | <takkaria> | hmm, I should really work on hubbub sorted so we can make a release and anolis can use it |
| 02:52 | <Hixie> | that'd be awesome |
| 02:53 | <Hixie> | jgraham, gsnedders: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/anolis-generated-index |
| 02:53 | <Hixie> | i can't use that :-) |
| 03:11 | <Lachy> | wow, a local camera store quoted me over $100 to repair a battery cover on my digital camera, but getting the part directly from the Kodak supplier and fixing it myself will only cost $5.50 |
| 04:22 | <annevk2> | I'm not part of the 2001 Web |
| 04:45 | <gavin> | me neither :( |
| 09:22 | <hsivonen> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/html5 might develop into a feed worth following for tracking HTML5 questions outside the WGs |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: wonder if it's worth adding it to Planet HTML5 now |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: insufficient data to tell yet. not much harm in trying, though |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i have a (broken and not optimized at all) serializer for SDF in javascript |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | or maybe it was just a parser |
| 09:40 | <zcorpan> | annevk2: fixed, thanks |
| 09:41 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: wrting a SAX parser for SDF might indeed be the thing to try. |
| 09:41 | Philip` | still thinks SDF is unsuitable since it doesn't scale linearly |
| 09:41 | <zcorpan> | i'm sure it's possible to come up with a better format |
| 09:42 | <zcorpan> | SDF was a quick hack for what i needed at the time |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: btw, SDF doesn't have a default for the namespace on attribute nodes |
| 09:42 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: isn't it the empty string? |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: ah. right |
| 09:43 | <hsivonen> | I was merely comparing the definitions of e and a |
| 09:43 | <zcorpan> | error handling isn't defined for sdf :( |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan> | assuming the error handling i had in my parser it's not particularly extensible |
| 09:45 | <zcorpan> | (it just assumed it was correct and skipped past expected stuff without looking) |
| 09:50 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I just fixed a couple of things at anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk (it now displays a front page and doesn't excess whiespae in the source) |
| 09:50 | Hixie | tries again |
| 09:51 | <jgraham> | It uses the html5lib serializer by the way |
| 09:51 | <jgraham> | So it's pretty easy to change the serialization code or options |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: "Warning: Overriding document character encoding from utf-8 to UTF-8." |
| 09:53 | <Hixie> | what happened to the spaces in the <head>? |
| 09:53 | <Hixie> | and between the </dl> and the <p>? |
| 09:54 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 09:54 | <Hixie> | also, any chance of it outputting entities instead of utf-8? the w3c has a bad habit of screwing up encoding declarations. |
| 09:55 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: isn't that something the W3C should fix |
| 09:55 | <hsivonen> | if the W3C can't get it right, the future with all the random joes out there looks bad |
| 09:55 | <Hixie> | yes but realistically i don't give that much of a chance and it's really not something i want to worry about |
| 09:56 | <Hixie> | jgraham: a lot of "unimportant" spaces get removed that make the source somewhat more messy, is that fixable? |
| 09:57 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Possibly. |
| 09:57 | jgraham | needs to look at the serializer again |
| 09:57 | <Hixie> | might be libxml2's fault, i dunno |
| 09:58 | <Hixie> | it's certainly much better than before |
| 09:58 | <erlehmann> | wtf does "Anolis ALPHABETA" do ? |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | generates the spec |
| 09:59 | <erlehmann> | from what ? |
| 10:00 | <Hixie> | it generates http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/index from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source |
| 10:00 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Tell it to output ASCII, I think |
| 10:00 | <Philip`> | jgraham: serializer.serialize(tokens, encoding='us-ascii') seems to make it do everything with entities |
| 10:01 | <erlehmann> | Hixie: so its essentially XSL ? |
| 10:01 | <Hixie> | in the same sense that C++ is essentially XSL, yes |
| 10:01 | <erlehmann> | hrhr |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | or rather, that the C++ preprocessor is XSL |
| 10:17 | <olliej> | Hixie: the whatwg twitter account has some odd tweets at times |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | yes, anyone can tweet on it at whatwg.org |
| 10:20 | <gsnedders> | olliej: Well, you can blame me for <http://twitter.com/WHATWG/statuses/939592521>; |
| 10:21 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.whatwg.html — that has less excess whitespace than you |
| 10:23 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Should have fixed the UTF-8 thing now. Try adding &html5lib=true to the url; assuming I didn't screw up, that should both parse and serialize with html5lib (which is slower, obviously) |
| 10:23 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: "If you want to mention random topics of interest you should have a little more detail" |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | making it even slower would fail at the only real need i had for this tool :-) |
| 10:24 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Like how interested? |
| 10:24 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: We should set up something that uses hsivonen's parser to parse it to XML first :P |
| 10:26 | <erlehmann> | http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a109/walrus0/obama2280473432_a0afd88685.jpg |
| 10:29 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Unfortunately you need to set up and run some long-running Java server process, otherwise it'll take much longer to launch the JVM than to do the actual parsing :-( |
| 10:30 | gsnedders | wonders whether we could use Jython |
| 10:30 | Philip` | wonders how much RAM you'd need for something like that |
| 10:30 | <jgraham> | Hixie: The point was to compare which errors are on the parser side and which on the serializer side :) |
| 10:30 | <Hixie> | jgraham: ah :-) |
| 10:30 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: You'd have to stop using the lxml API and start using whatever the relevant Java APIs are, I expect |
| 10:30 | Hixie | tries |
| 10:30 | hsivonen | guesses between 16 to 64 MB |
| 10:31 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: No, I could parse it from HTML -> XML -> lxml |
| 10:32 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Should I just drop the examples in parenthesis in the second para.? |
| 10:32 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Do you mean how much detail? |
| 10:32 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: yeah |
| 10:32 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: And now I'm asking about the very existence of the other examples |
| 10:33 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Ah, okay, but you still can't use lxml in Jython since it's a C module |
| 10:33 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Ah. |
| 10:33 | <jgraham> | I think the examples in parens are somewhat better than the sentence "Recent things that have interested me are [...]" |
| 10:33 | <Philip`> | so you might as well have a separate external process that does HTML-string -> XML-string and then parse that with lxml in CPython |
| 10:33 | <gsnedders> | yeah |
| 10:33 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I'm just going to stab you :P |
| 10:34 | <jgraham> | It's not a bad idea to sounds up to date but they kinds of sound like "I just read some stuff recently for my UCAS form" |
| 10:35 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Ah, that doesn't sound too bad - what kind of software do people use if they just want to run a simple Java service where they can send it a string and get a string back? |
| 10:35 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: That won't help your application at all. Unless, I suppose, you find a way to stab me over the internet, in which case it will be such a major breakthrough that ou mght get into the OU from your prison cell |
| 10:36 | <Hixie> | jgraham: took about 4 times as long, but yeah, it fixed the problem |
| 10:36 | <gsnedders> | I wonder how much Pysco would help |
| 10:36 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Can I just concur with Philip` and my teacher in what it's fine? |
| 10:36 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: It helps quite a bit bu only on 32bit python |
| 10:37 | <gsnedders> | Actually, I need to add in TUSLIP. |
| 10:37 | <gsnedders> | ERGH> |
| 10:37 | <gsnedders> | *ERGH. |
| 10:37 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You can do whatever you like, it's your application :) |
| 10:37 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I think Psyco gave something like 25-50% improvement in parsing stuff, with an old version of html5lib |
| 10:37 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: Jetty with your own main() method if you want HTTP |
| 10:37 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: And the rest of Anolis? :P |
| 10:37 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: or a simple loop doing accept() on ServerSocket if you don't want HTTP |
| 10:38 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I don't think I actually said it was fine; I just couldn't easily think of any worthwhile improvements to suggest :-) |
| 10:38 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: :P |
| 10:38 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: That depends entirely on where your bottlenecks are |
| 10:39 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: TOC building is expensive (building it in memory from the entire tree, actually making a ol/li list is cheap) |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: if the spec can be trusted not to have non-streamable errors, you could run the parser in the streaming mode and use up less RAM |
| 10:39 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: xref is very expensive |
| 10:39 | <Philip`> | e.g. I assume Psyco helps a lot with long arithmetic functions, but it doesn't help at all if you're spending all your time in C libraries |
| 10:39 | <Philip`> | or if you're spending all your time doing string manipulation and dict lookups |
| 10:40 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Should I just omit the backflipping car? |
| 10:42 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: The car thing might be good if it is really something that has motivated you to study physics |
| 10:43 | <jgraham> | But if it is you need to say that explicitly and expand it a but |
| 10:43 | <jgraham> | bit |
| 10:43 | gsnedders | gives up on sending it off today |
| 10:43 | <gsnedders> | If I include the TUSLIP day, then I'll end up with it too long |
| 10:55 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Try removing generic sentences like "There are almost endless questions that can be asked about how and why systems behave as they do.". Hopefully the peorson reading your personal statement already realises that :) |
| 10:56 | <jgraham> | That also applies to things like "Two useful skills that physics teaches are..." |
| 10:57 | <jgraham> | You should say something about you e.g. "Two skills that I have developed through studyinging physics are..." |
| 10:57 | <jgraham> | Because the person reading the form already knows what physics is supposed to teach but they want to know what you have got out of it |
| 11:17 | <jgraham> | I enabled psyco on anolis.h.c.u I don't know if it's making a significant difference or not |
| 11:18 | <Hixie> | no noticeable difference |
| 11:18 | <Hixie> | takes 8 seconds |
| 11:18 | <Hixie> | which is fine |
| 11:18 | <Hixie> | for now :-) |
| 11:23 | <Hixie> | so... anyone see anything wrong with http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ ? |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | Philip`: looks like the multipage script works ok with the new ids? |
| 11:26 | <Hixie> | gsnedders, jgraham: i'm still getting validation errors on the w3c verson of the doc: http://html5.validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatwg.org%2Fspecs%2Fweb-apps%2Fcurrent-work%2F.w3c%2FOverview.html |
| 11:28 | <Hixie> | something weird happens to the table in the source |
| 11:28 | <Hixie> | the whole table vanishes |
| 11:28 | <Hixie> | ohhhh |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | i bet i know what it is |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | i bet the newlines are being stripped |
| 11:29 | <Hixie> | and so the sed script is nuking the whole table |
| 11:41 | <Hixie> | ok now the only problem is that the serialisation adds an unnecessary <meta charset> |
| 11:41 | <Hixie> | but i can strip that with my postprocess step |
| 12:08 | <Philip`> | Hixie: It doesn't work okay, in the sense that it doesn't split things into sensible-sized chunks |
| 12:09 | <Philip`> | though it does still split things into chunks |
| 12:09 | <Philip`> | but I'll just need to upload the new version which has a new list of split ids |
| 12:09 | <Philip`> | which is hopefully trivial |
| 12:09 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ is the new version |
| 12:09 | <Hixie> | i'm ready to flip the switch and check it in |
| 12:10 | <Hixie> | just give the word |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | Hmph, you've done too much work and now the sections are unevenly sized again |
| 12:11 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 12:12 | <Philip`> | Did anyone conclude whether the lxml parser/serialiser has problems, that would mean I couldn't use them in the spec-splitter? |
| 12:12 | <Hixie> | the serialiser has issues iirc |
| 12:13 | <Hixie> | though i forget what |
| 12:13 | <Hixie> | the parser is already used by anolis so whatever problems it introduces are already payed for |
| 12:13 | <annevk2> | looks ok to me, though we need to fix some Anolis bugs too in due course |
| 12:14 | <annevk2> | but I thought the service from jgraham was not stable? |
| 12:14 | <Philip`> | (Hmm, better sizes now - the largest is 261KB for the forms section) |
| 12:14 | <Hixie> | not stable? |
| 12:15 | <annevk2> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081001#l-33 |
| 12:16 | Philip` | will stick with the html5lib serialiser, just to be safe |
| 12:17 | <Hixie> | Philip`: seems wise |
| 12:17 | <Hixie> | and time is not an issue with the multipage script |
| 12:17 | <Hixie> | annevk2: well, i have my system set up so it will fire up every anolis instance i know if (james' and yours so far) and use whichever one gets back soonest |
| 12:17 | <Hixie> | i know of, even |
| 12:17 | <annevk2> | ok |
| 12:18 | <Philip`> | But it slows down my server and steals CPU time away from its more important processes such as, er, irssi and not much else |
| 12:18 | <annevk2> | how was the issue serialization issue fixed? |
| 12:20 | <Hixie> | Philip`: :-) |
| 12:20 | <Hixie> | issue serialization? |
| 12:21 | <Philip`> | Updated the spec-splitter service now |
| 12:21 | <Philip`> | Wait, no I haven't |
| 12:22 | <Philip`> | Now I think I have |
| 12:22 | <annevk2> | Hixie, with the validation errors |
| 12:22 | <Philip`> | (It should be faster since it still parses with lxml) |
| 12:22 | <Hixie> | annevk2: oh |
| 12:22 | <Hixie> | annevk2: not sure |
| 12:36 | <jgraham> | annevk2: I switched to using html5lib for serialization |
| 12:38 | <annevk2> | I see |
| 12:39 | <jgraham> | http://hg.jgraham.webfactional.com/aquarium/ is the front end code I currently have |
| 12:41 | <annevk2> | sys.stdout.write versus print? |
| 13:04 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: shouldn't the content sniffing: unknown type allow whitespace before "<!DOCTYPE HTML"? |
| 13:30 | <BenMillard> | krijnh, the URL http://nodebox.net/code/index.php/Reference_|_textpath() here: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081001#l-75 |
| 13:31 | <BenMillard> | Opera's IRC doesn't include the ) but there is a ( just before it in the URL |
| 13:34 | <Philip`> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/stdout.txt looks much prettier in Opera than in Firefox |
| 13:39 | <virtuelv> | Can I assume that 2007-06-07 is going to be a valid date string? |
| 13:39 | <annevk2> | I'd say yes |
| 13:40 | <virtuelv> | Ok, going to take the liberty of using it, then |
| 15:12 | <krijnh> | BenMillard: fixed :) |
| 15:12 | <krijnh> | (http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081001#l-412) |
| 15:32 | <virtuelv> | any proposals on how to represent all of these in HTML: http://people.brandeis.edu/~rind/bentley/symbols33.gif |
| 15:34 | <zcorpan> | the first three are probably <ins>/<del> |
| 15:34 | <virtuelv> | zcorpan: note that these are explicit corrections |
| 15:35 | <zcorpan> | yeah ... maybe <ins>/<del> isnt' appropriate for that |
| 15:35 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: HTML simply doesn't have precise native semantics for all those |
| 15:35 | <virtuelv> | question is, should it? |
| 15:36 | <MikeSmith> | virtuelv: I doesn't seem to me at least that the core HTML language needs markup for copy-editing markup |
| 15:36 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: in my opinion, no |
| 15:36 | <MikeSmith> | virtuelv: what hsivonen said |
| 15:36 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: because HTML is a general language and not specific to that particular domain |
| 15:36 | <virtuelv> | kids are being asked to turn in assignments electronically already |
| 15:37 | <annevk2> | could use <ins> with a class |
| 15:37 | <virtuelv> | before long, those assignments will be html, handled by a textarea on steroids |
| 15:37 | <MikeSmith> | most people have no need for that granularity of copy-editing markup nor any idea wtf those marks mean |
| 15:38 | <virtuelv> | some are simply irrelevant, though, like 'stet' |
| 15:38 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 15:38 | <zcorpan> | i guess you'd want <mark> |
| 15:38 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: can't the teacher send back and edited file and the kid runs an html diff program on it? |
| 15:38 | <zcorpan> | with title or something |
| 15:39 | <virtuelv> | hsivonen: or the tool could provide the diff |
| 15:39 | <zcorpan> | the teacher sends a patch |
| 15:39 | <virtuelv> | can haz annotated patch |
| 15:40 | <virtuelv> | (it's just an open question, though, it just made me wonder) |
| 15:40 | <virtuelv> | 4 and 5 has a tendency to throw off diffs, btw |
| 15:40 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 15:42 | MikeSmith | wonders what's wrong with the sentence "His head was wrapped in a turbine." .. likes that sentence just the way it is |
| 15:43 | zcorpan | makes his spec more readable by introducing the term "context node" |
| 15:45 | <MikeSmith> | dglazkov: hei |
| 15:46 | <zcorpan> | maybe it doesn't need to be an explicit xref? what do you think? (http://simon.html5.org/specs/web-dom-core#dom-document-createelement and onwards) |
| 15:51 | <dglazkov> | MikeSmith! |
| 15:52 | <MikeSmith> | dglazkov: please get to work on making it possible for me to build and use Chrome on Linux |
| 15:53 | <dglazkov> | MikeSmith: yessir! |
| 15:53 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 16:10 | <hsivonen> | make -f client.mk build |
| 16:10 | <hsivonen> | doh |
| 17:04 | <MikeSmith> | does anybody know who http://www.reddit.com/user/gst actually is? |
| 17:05 | <MikeSmith> | virtuelv: ↑ |
| 17:05 | <virtuelv> | MikeSmith: no clue |
| 17:06 | <MikeSmith> | I think he's a script |
| 17:06 | <virtuelv> | based on his posting frequency, I suspect he's a bot |
| 17:06 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 17:06 | <MikeSmith> | virtuelv: coke jinx |
| 17:08 | MikeSmith | encounters the "cat herder" metaphor for the 3000th millionth time |
| 17:09 | <MikeSmith> | with apologies, I think what some work needs is more people with cat-drowning skills |
| 17:09 | MikeSmith | googles "cat drowner" |
| 17:09 | <MikeSmith> | 01:11 where /me is, btw |
| 17:10 | <MikeSmith> | so forgive me if I offend |
| 17:44 | <Philip`> | I just want Chrome on Linux so that I can use http://ajeanius.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/first-release/ |
| 17:44 | <Philip`> | Oh, that's a bad link since it doesn't give any indication what it is |
| 17:45 | <Philip`> | http://ajeanius.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/awesomium-google-chrome-hacked/ |
| 17:47 | <Philip`> | The copy-editing issue has an easy solution: the teacher should just print all the electronic submissions, and mark them up with a red biro |
| 17:51 | <MikeSmith> | "he API that Google put together is really quite kick-ass– it’s got support for injection of mouse/keyboard events, Javascript evaluation, invalidation callbacks, navigation callbacks, and best of all, it lets us do off-screen, selective rendering" |
| 17:56 | <MikeSmith> | as far as the marking-up thing, based on my previous lives as both a schoolteacher (no joke) and textbook editor, marking up student/writers texts with red/baker-miller-red/soothing-blue copy-editing marks all the hell all over the place is not a terrifically efficient motivator at getting them to learn how to actually write |
| 17:56 | <MikeSmith> | the better way is to sit down one-on-one and go through and have them mark up the changes themselves |
| 17:56 | <MikeSmith> | in whatever color they prefer |
| 17:57 | <MikeSmith> | that is, verbally pointing out where the problems are |
| 17:57 | <MikeSmith> | sort of the "teach a man to fish" approach |
| 17:57 | <MikeSmith> | and they can use whatever arbitrary copy-editing markup format they want, in that case |
| 17:57 | <erlehmann_> | MIRRORS ARE MORE FUN THAN TELEVISION |
| 18:00 | <MikeSmith> | erlehmann_: Exactly. I understand exactly the point you are making, which is that sex is much better with mirrors involved. |
| 18:00 | <MikeSmith> | thanks |
| 18:02 | <erlehmann_> | D; |
| 19:13 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: What service is adding in meta@charset? |
| 19:14 | <gsnedders> | It should be an html5lib option, and should be off by default |
| 19:16 | <gsnedders> | Why is inject_meta_charset defaulting to True in html5lib? |
| 19:16 | <gsnedders> | jgraham? Philip`? |
| 19:18 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I didn't write that code but I guess it was decided that it is safer |
| 19:19 | <jgraham> | I think it should be False by default |
| 19:19 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Can you set it off? |
| 19:19 | <gsnedders> | Me too. |
| 19:19 | <gsnedders> | (at least for Anolis) |
| 19:20 | <gsnedders> | (the API doesn't actually change html5lib options from the default) |
| 19:20 | <jgraham> | Er, I guess I should check on the mailing list before changing the default but sure, I'll change it for anolis |
| 19:20 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: If you're running an up-to-date (from hg) copy of Anolis, you have no need for indent_char |
| 19:21 | <gsnedders> | Is Hixie using it with html5lib parsing? |
| 19:24 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: No |
| 19:24 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Try that |
| 19:24 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: "that"? How? |
| 19:26 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: What were you complaining about? |
| 19:26 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Huh? |
| 19:26 | <jgraham> | I changed anolis.hoppipolla.co.uk to serialize without the inject_meta_charset option and to not use indent_char |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | ah, OK |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, that works fine |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | inject_meta_charset is a bit slow too |
| 19:29 | <jgraham> | Is there a version of the source with the WG-specific headers but without the postprocessed stuff somewhere? |
| 19:30 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source-w3c? |
| 19:31 | <gsnedders> | interestingly I'm seeing next to no difference with &html5lib and without |
| 19:32 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Is the output different? Otherwise it suggests a bug :) |
| 19:32 | <jgraham> | (psyco might have helped html5lib a lot) |
| 19:34 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Both are identical |
| 19:47 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: They are different for me |
| 19:49 | <jgraham> | You need &html5lib=something e.g. &html5lib=true |
| 19:50 | gsnedders | tries |
| 19:51 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I'm getting different stuff now |
| 19:51 | gsnedders | shrugs |
| 21:01 | <sicking> | annevk2, ping |
| 21:04 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: ping |
| 21:17 | <annevk2> | yo |
| 21:17 | annevk2 | is sort of available |
| 21:17 | <annevk2> | sicking, gsnedders, yo/pong |
| 21:18 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: you made mention to Anolis bugs that will need to be fixed. What bugs? |
| 21:18 | <annevk2> | hsivonen, http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fannevankesteren.nl%2F2008%2Fajaxexperience seems wrong |
| 21:18 | <annevk2> | gsnedders, it was the serializer issues |
| 21:19 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: ah. That's lxml/html5lib bugs! :P |
| 21:19 | <sicking> | annevk2, what is the purpose of the "url return flag"? |
| 21:19 | <annevk2> | sicking, redirects? |
| 21:20 | <sicking> | annevk2, seems like a hook for the XHR2 spec, but I don't even get how it's used there |
| 21:20 | <sicking> | annevk2, ? |
| 21:20 | <annevk2> | you do a request from A to B |
| 21:20 | <annevk2> | B redirects to A |
| 21:21 | <annevk2> | in that case the status return flag will be "same-origin" and the "url return flag" the specific URL |
| 21:21 | <sicking> | why not just say "follow the redirect"? |
| 21:21 | <annevk2> | because the policy is different |
| 21:21 | <annevk2> | XHR2 starts using the same origin request policy at that point |
| 21:22 | <sicking> | so first off, i'm not sure that that is safe |
| 21:22 | <annevk2> | we discussed this model ages ago |
| 21:22 | <annevk2> | and you agreed to it |
| 21:22 | <annevk2> | :) |
| 21:22 | <sicking> | really? |
| 21:22 | <sicking> | i doubt that |
| 21:22 | <annevk2> | yes |
| 21:22 | <sicking> | i remember this was discussed, but i don't remember a resolution |
| 21:23 | <sicking> | it seems scary that if good.com loads what it thinks is a resource from evil.com, it might actually end up getting a private resource from good.com that was loaded with credentials |
| 21:24 | <sicking> | if good.com publishes that resource anywhere effectively evil.com can read private data from good.com |
| 21:24 | <annevk2> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2007Aug/0036.html |
| 21:25 | <sicking> | well, that was just crazy :) |
| 21:25 | <sicking> | s/that/I/ |
| 21:25 | <annevk2> | fair enough :p |
| 21:26 | <sicking> | meaning you'll change it? |
| 21:27 | <annevk2> | to what? |
| 21:27 | <annevk2> | are you suggesting dropping that entire thing and simply always require the check? |
| 21:27 | <sicking> | yes |
| 21:27 | <sicking> | well, once you've been cross-site |
| 21:28 | <annevk2> | that'd make things simpler :) |
| 21:28 | <sicking> | not for requests that are strictly same-site |
| 21:28 | <annevk2> | basically dropping a bunch of text |
| 21:28 | <annevk2> | well, same-site has a different "spec path" anyway |
| 21:28 | <annevk2> | i need an e-mail though |
| 21:28 | <annevk2> | so everyone knows |
| 21:29 | <annevk2> | and i can point it out to you in a few years and you can say "well, I was just crazy" again :) |
| 21:29 | <sicking> | yeah, i think this needs to be discussed. Things do seem somewhat non-ideal no matter what |
| 21:44 | <erlehmann_> | http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/movie_screw/vod6.jpg |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | i love how the wai meeting is to be inaccessible to those who don't actually go to france |
| 22:45 | Philip` | finds http://www.htmlite.com/XH003.php |
| 22:45 | <Philip`> | It seems they lacked sufficient foresight :-( |
| 22:45 | <Dashiva> | "Accessing attributes as properties is discouraged and considered becoming obsolete" |
| 22:45 | <Dashiva> | what? |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | why would the string comparison ever fail? |
| 23:36 | <gsnedders> | Must. Stop. Procrastinating. |
| 23:38 | <jcranmer> | gsnedders: meh, do it tomorrow ;-) |
| 23:38 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: Need to do this. Today. |
| 23:39 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Then stop talking about it on IRC |
