| 01:42 | <Hixie> | 81 e-mails on the subject of the video looping attributes??! |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | are you kidding me? |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | man you people need to stop repeating yourselves. :-P |
| 01:43 | <Dashiva> | It's not our fault nobody specified a loop attribute (header) for email |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | use cases: |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | looping a background audio track |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | playing a fragment when treating a media file as a "sprite" to avoid the overhead of multiple Audio objects and HTTP connections |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | jumping to a starting point without having to wait for the video file to load |
| 01:47 | <MikeSmith> | + a background video (similar to a background image); e.g., that just asks as the "idle screen" for kiosk or whatever |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | read "audio or video" whenever i say "audio" or "video" |
| 01:47 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | (they're the same api) |
| 06:50 | Hixie | summons roc |
| 07:11 | <Hixie> | sicking: yeah i don't remember what the use case was either... hopefully aaron will clarify |
| 07:38 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: thanks for dropping those looping features... it makes my job a bit easier |
| 08:09 | <jwalden> | Hixie: excellent pun about people repeating themselves on the looping attributes! :-D |
| 09:07 | <hsivonen> | Can some explain me why software dealing with TV-originating data should crop away overscan as suggested in the pixel aspect ratio thread? |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | (I, for one, don't see the point of content getting cropped when exporting from EyeTV. If the uncropped version didn't look "right", why does EyeTV support displaying the incoming TV feed with all the pixels visible?) |
| 11:00 | <famicom> | hsivonen i actually knew that |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | famicom: what are you referring to? |
| 11:01 | <famicom> | <hsivonen> Can some explain me why software dealing with TV-originating data should crop away overscan as suggested in the pixel aspect ratio thread? |
| 11:02 | <hsivonen> | famicom: so what's the point of cropping these days when displays don't need overscan for CRT tech? |
| 11:05 | <famicom> | software or hardware decoder |
| 11:08 | <hsivonen> | famicom: either way. what's the point? |
| 11:12 | <famicom> | eh |
| 11:12 | <famicom> | ask me some time when i've had some rest |
| 11:24 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, any help you can offer with Action-85 (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/85) would be much appreciated :) |
| 11:25 | <BenMillard> | at the moment I'm documenting the most general similarities they have, such as applying header cells downwards or rightwards and limiting this to <th> cells |
| 11:27 | <BenMillard> | take your time...I've given myself about 2 weeks to produce the comparison and will be tidying the 2008 Collection during that time as well |
| 11:42 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: I've started implementing the HTML 5 spec algorithm |
| 11:42 | <jgraham> | No eta or promises :) |
| 11:44 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, that's cool |
| 11:44 | Philip` | gets confused trying to work out where 'eta' fits on the alpha/beta/RC/release scale |
| 11:45 | <jgraham> | between zeta and theta? |
| 11:46 | <BenMillard> | hmm, what about the proposed extensions to the current algorithms which aren't in a prototype but would support a bit more existing content? |
| 11:46 | <jgraham> | Pointer? |
| 11:47 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, the requests for <td headers> pointing at <td id> to make the association, and for <th> to become associated with another <th> |
| 11:47 | BenMillard | is looking for a suitable link... |
| 11:48 | <jgraham> | I thought the <th> pointing at another <th> was a major difference between smart headers and HTML5 |
| 11:49 | jgraham | might have forgotten all about this in the last month |
| 11:49 | <BenMillard> | yeah, I wanted Smart Headers to do that but can't remember if it does (I think you're right, actually) |
| 11:50 | <BenMillard> | http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers captures some of the requests |
| 11:50 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, yep <th> associates with <th> in Smart Headers: http://james.html5.org/cgi-bin/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fprojectcerbera.com%2Fblog%2F2008%2F09%2Funtangle&source=&algorithm=smartheaders |
| 11:52 | <jgraham> | I could easilly make <td headers> pointing at <td id> associate as an option |
| 11:52 | <BenMillard> | that could be worth doing to help test compatibility with real tables |
| 11:53 | <BenMillard> | I guess <th headers> pointing at <td id> should work as well for consistency? not sure if any content actually does that, though |
| 11:55 | jgraham | wishes he had a personal bug tracking system |
| 11:56 | <jgraham> | (not for tracking bugs in my person you understand) |
| 11:58 | <Philip`> | So why not just set one up? :-) |
| 11:59 | <Philip`> | As long as you don't do something silly like try to install Bugzilla, it shouldn't be hard to set something up or find some online bug tracking service |
| 12:00 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, I sometimes have a block of bullet-pointed comments at the start of my (extremely badly written) code for that :) |
| 12:00 | <jgraham> | Philip`: No really good reason although they generally seem to be slightly more than trivial to install (even when they are not bugzilla) |
| 12:01 | <jgraham> | In fact I think I have a half-finished installation of roundup somewhere |
| 12:02 | <Philip`> | Could you use a personal Google Code project, or do you need more privacy than that allows? |
| 12:03 | <jgraham> | I guess that would work although I am not so enamoured with google code |
| 12:03 | jgraham | will probably just install something for himself eventually |
| 12:04 | <Philip`> | At least it's more enamourable than Sourceforge :-) |
| 12:05 | Philip` | installed a personal Trac some time ago, then used it for two days before realising he was too lazy to organise his life even when there's technology to help |
| 12:06 | <Philip`> | so now I just avoid ever having more than one responsibility at a time, so I don't need to track anything |
| 12:07 | <jgraham> | I installed trac once but I don't really like trac |
| 12:11 | <yecril71> | A script should be able to recognize the current display medium by querying the DOM. |
| 12:12 | <yecril71> | There is no need to restrict a script using a declarative attribute. |
| 12:13 | <yecril71> | A script can just do nothing if it detects a different medium than its target. |
| 12:59 | <BenMillard> | I'm off to give blood now, bye all. |
| 13:07 | <yecril71> | A hidden input can be placed in the last item. |
| 13:07 | <yecril71> | Closing items and rows is optional. |
| 13:07 | <yecril71> | Internet Explorer ignores </LI > and </TR > completely. |
| 13:10 | <yecril71> | The content that follows goes into the latest LI or TD. |
| 13:21 | <Hish> | hi. is there a way to define html fragments in html5? so, is <div template="#xxx"></div> <datatemplate id="xxx">content</datatemplate> --> <div template="#xxx">content</div> valid. or is there another/better way? |
| 13:27 | <Philip`> | Hish: <datatemplate> has been removed from HTML5 |
| 13:29 | <Philip`> | But ignoring that, I don't quite understand the question |
| 13:30 | <Hish> | Philip: oh ok. Well, think about a presentation where we have a bunch of slides which will all refer to one master slide with a background image and maybe some svg graphics. is there a way to 'implement' this masterslide into all slides? pretty much as I described above? |
| 13:31 | <Hish> | to keep going with this example: currently I have to clone the masterslide and append it to each slide. |
| 13:35 | <takkaria> | I'm not sure what you mean, given that HTML doesn't natively support slides in any way |
| 13:37 | <Philip`> | Hish: Ah, like including an external file into the middle of another HTML document? |
| 13:38 | <Philip`> | or is this all in a single file? |
| 13:38 | <Hish> | both |
| 13:40 | <Hish> | but in general, that's what I mean: including html fragments n times into a html document. |
| 13:40 | <Hish> | think about 10 divs and all should contain the same background image (ok, can be done by CSS) and the same svg graphic (can not be done by CSS). to get this graphic on all pages, I would need to clone them with javascript or put 10 grapics into each div. |
| 13:41 | <Philip`> | There's <iframe> which lets you include an external file (and <iframe seamless> in HTML5, to make its size adjust automatically to fit its content), but I'm not sure that'd work here |
| 13:41 | <Hish> | no. must be in the same DOM. |
| 13:42 | <Hish> | I mean, it's ok to do the javascript clone. I just saw this template attribute in html5 and I was thinking that'll do the job. but maybe this tag is also removed or meant in another way. |
| 13:43 | <Philip`> | There has been lots of discussion about something like an <include src="..."> to insert code from elsewhere into the middle of a document, but (if I remember correctly) that has been rejected since there are too many problems |
| 13:44 | <Hish> | ok. thx for your help. |
| 13:44 | <Philip`> | The data templates were intended partly for forms, but I guess they could be used as a more generic templating system for this kind of thing |
| 13:45 | <Philip`> | but it turned out that they weren't a good enough solution to deserve being put in the spec, so the template feature was removed |
| 13:45 | <Hish> | I know these data templates from old XUL times and they were a nightmare |
| 13:47 | <Philip`> | I've never used XUL, but I tried writing one example using the HTML5 data templates and it sort of worked out in the end but it wasn't the most intuitive thing ever |
| 14:17 | Philip` | learns that jQuery doesn't like you doing $(...).slice("1") |
| 14:17 | <Philip`> | Uh |
| 14:17 | Philip` | learns that jQuery doesn't like you doing $(...).eq("1") |
| 14:18 | <Philip`> | because it implements it with Array.slice(i, i+1) which is slice("1", "11") which is not good |
| 15:01 | <yecril71> | You need XSLT: XML->HTML for templates. |
| 15:01 | <yecril71> | This is quite heavyweight. |
| 15:01 | <yecril71> | Or you can do JavaScript: JSON->HTML. |
| 15:02 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: what kind of templates? what's heavy? |
| 15:03 | <yecril71> | Templates to insert the same piece of HTML into various places in the same document. |
| 15:03 | <yecril71> | Hish asked a question about that recently. |
| 15:04 | <yecril71> | The XSLT engine is heavy. |
| 15:07 | <jgraham> | "Need" is a rather strong word. You could also use server-side templates or js bsed templates |
| 15:18 | <Philip`> | Just write your whole web page with document.write(), then it's easy to repeat sections of markup |
| 15:22 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I thought that's how most webpages were wrotten |
| 15:22 | <jgraham> | written |
| 15:22 | <jgraham> | or rotten I guess |
| 15:26 | <yecril71> | Yes, that is the right word for the activity :-) |
| 15:27 | <yecril71> | I have recently tried a JSON->HTML framework for the purpose. |
| 15:27 | <yecril71> | Seems promising, although not having closing tags can be frustrating sometimes. |
| 15:45 | <Hish> | is it allowed to use customs tags like <tab> or <mynamespace:tab> in html5 or will they be rejected by a validator? |
| 15:46 | <Philip`> | Hish: They will be rejected |
| 15:46 | <Hish> | thx |
| 15:47 | <Philip`> | The usual extensibility solution is something like <div class="tab"> |
| 15:47 | <Hish> | that's how it works right now ;-) |
| 15:47 | <Philip`> | Custom tags are particularly bad for backward compatibility, since most browsers don't parse them nicely |
| 15:48 | <Hish> | am I wrong or do most of the browsers parse unknown tags as inline elements? |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | and they're bad for forward compatibility (if you're not using special syntax like namespaces), since a future version of HTML might want to start using that name |
| 15:51 | <Philip`> | Hish: You are partly wrong - IE parses unknown tags as empty elements (so <foo>bar</foo> is an empty FOO element, then "bar" text, then an empty /FOO element) |
| 15:51 | <Philip`> | and other browsers don't all handle unknown tags exactly like inline tags like <span> |
| 15:52 | <Hish> | well, for I you need this stupid document.createElement("foo") statement |
| 15:52 | <Philip`> | though they're close enough that it works in most cases if you pretend they're just inline |
| 15:52 | <Hish> | for IE |
| 15:53 | <Philip`> | Ah, yes - if you do that in IE, then they get parsed like pseudo-XML elements, which sort of does what you'd expect most of the time |
| 15:54 | <Hish> | html5 tags work fine with |
| 15:54 | <Hish> | <!--[if IE]><script> |
| 15:54 | <Hish> | new function (){ |
| 15:54 | <Hish> | var a=["section","header","footer"............]; |
| 15:54 | <Hish> | for(var i=0; i<a.length; i++) |
| 15:54 | <Hish> | document.createElement(a[i]); |
| 15:54 | <Hish> | }(); |
| 15:54 | <Hish> | </script><![endif]--> |
| 15:54 | <mookid> | have you implemented my Accept tag yet? |
| 15:55 | <Philip`> | Hish: Depends on what you mean by "fine" :-) |
| 15:55 | <Philip`> | IE will parse "<section/>" into an empty element, whereas every other browser will just treat it as a start tag that contains whatever follows |
| 15:56 | <Philip`> | and crazy things will happen when you have misnested tags, which won't match the crazy things that HTML5 says browsers must do |
| 15:57 | <Hish> | <section /> doesn't make sense for me at all |
| 15:58 | <Hish> | but I agree. with IE you can only get the basics to work. |
| 17:11 | <Philip`> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22position%3A%20absolute%22%3EOne%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22margin-top%3A%202em%22%3E%26nbsp%3B%20%26nbsp%3B%20%26nbsp%3B%20%26nbsp%3BTwo%3C%2Fdiv%3E |
| 17:12 | <Philip`> | Opera 9.62 and IE6 put line Two below line One; Firefox 2/3 and Safari 3.0 put them on the same line |
| 17:12 | <Philip`> | so I guess someone is buggy? |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | man it annoys me when people say that content labelled as xml that isn't well-formed xml isn't xml. |
| 21:51 | <takkaria> | all depends on your ontology, really |
| 21:52 | <Philip`> | Why is it that the word "ontology" has always filled me with loathing, even before I had any idea at all what it meant? |
| 21:52 | <takkaria> | me too, actually |
| 21:52 | <takkaria> | I guess "definitions" is equally as good a word |
| 21:53 | <Philip`> | Whenever someone says "I'm working on developing ontologies", I think "aaargh! run away!" despite having no understanding that would rationally justify that response |
| 21:53 | <takkaria> | I think my distrust of the word came from seeing it used by people who talked about RDF |
| 21:54 | <takkaria> | but being on a philosophy degree, it just becomes part of everyday language use |
| 21:59 | <Philip`> | Why do people always talk about the semantics of markup, and seem to ignore that nearly all of the semantics of a document comes from its natural language textual content? |
| 21:59 | <Philip`> | (Am I just misunderstanding what people mean by "semantics"?) |
| 22:00 | <takkaria> | I think that people misunderstand what "semantics" means, given that people use the phrase "semantic meaning" |
| 22:01 | <takkaria> | I like to read "meaning" where other people "semantics" when it comes to HTML, so I always read it as "meaning meaning", which is a sure sign someone's not thinking clearly |
| 22:03 | <othermaciej> | I think some people think of "semantics" as meaning "machine-extractable meaning" |
| 22:03 | <othermaciej> | so it would not apply to natural language |
| 22:03 | <othermaciej> | even though machines can in fact in an operational sense often extract meaning from natural language |
| 22:04 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: it seems not completely irrational to say that - I'd certainly say content labeled as ASCII that isn't well-formed ASCII isn't ASCII |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: i didn't say it wasn't true |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: just that it was annoying |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | hey, noah is happy that we're listening to him |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | sweet |
| 22:30 | <takkaria> | when Rob Burns and Philip Taylor agree about a topic though, that's a sure indicator of something... |
| 22:46 | <Hixie> | still no roc, eh |
| 22:56 | <deltab> | Philip`: semantics of markup vs. semantics of content? |
| 23:45 | Hixie | considers changing canPlayType() to returning "probably", "maybe", and "no" |
| 23:53 | <Philip`> | That will be fun for everyone who doesn't read the documentation and then writes "if (canPlayType(...)) { ... }" |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#media-types |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | well, they'll hit that error pretty soon, right |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | it's not like the -1, 0, 1 case where it would take each codepath in some cases |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | and the return values are at least self-documenting here |