| 00:01 | <jgraham> | http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html has some probably-horribly broken implementation of the HTML5 headers algorithm as it is currently in the spec. Note that the URL structure has changed a little so old links won't work 'till I set up a redirect |
| 00:01 | <jgraham> | I will fix bugs some other day |
| 00:50 | <Lachy> | wow, isn't it nice when people do a little research and come up with the same result that others have tried to point out all along! http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017367.html |
| 00:52 | <Dashiva> | Lachy: We should all be happy it ended well |
| 00:52 | <Lachy> | I am |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | yeah i was impressed by that guy's humbleness |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | we could all learn from that :-) |
| 01:19 | <Philip`> | The only problem is he seems to be missing the people who say <link rel="made" href="Mr A. Square"> and <link rel="made" href="asquare⊙ec"> :-) |
| 01:19 | <Philip`> | Uh |
| 01:19 | <Philip`> | s/rel/rev/ |
| 06:26 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: the parsing spec is not complex for the sake of complexity |
| 06:26 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: would it be elitist to suggest that some Web authors can't program at all and, therefore, won't be writing parsers? |
| 06:28 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I think the current way of speccing it is less elitist that e.g. one that required readers to grok lex/yacc/ocaml |
| 07:29 | <hsivonen> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Oct/0126.html (Member-only link) |
| 07:34 | <hsivonen> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Oct/0135.html |
| 07:38 | <annevk2> | o_O |
| 07:46 | <hsivonen> | Tantek's troll taxonomy lacks an anti-browser troll. http://tantek.pbwiki.com/TrollTaxonomy |
| 07:47 | <roc> | did everyone see that IE8's having a third beta Q12009, with a final release some time after that? |
| 07:48 | hsivonen | had not seen the news |
| 07:49 | <annevk2> | I didn't |
| 07:50 | annevk2 | thought IE8 would come during Christmas |
| 07:54 | <roc> | that had been the plan |
| 07:57 | <annevk2> | I wonder why Gmail now has a fucked up color scheme |
| 07:58 | <roc> | it actually has several to choose from |
| 07:58 | <roc> | remember it's still in beta |
| 07:59 | <hsivonen> | can anyone remember if scripts inside objects and applets run? |
| 07:59 | <hsivonen> | (I expect them to run) |
| 08:05 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yep they do |
| 08:05 | <hsivonen> | thanks |
| 08:06 | <zcorpan> | but ie is different |
| 08:08 | <annevk2> | roc, beta, hah :) |
| 08:08 | <annevk2> | where can I pick the default one? |
| 08:09 | <roc> | correction: the Q12009 IE8 release will be a "release candidate", not a "beta" |
| 08:10 | <annevk2> | ah, themes |
| 08:10 | hsivonen | wonders if Release Candidate in MS vocabulary means potentially final compiler output |
| 08:10 | <roc> | doesn't sound like it |
| 08:10 | annevk2 | sets it back to classic |
| 08:11 | hsivonen | finds that and XLink-aware tree builder may have to stop the parser |
| 08:12 | <hsivonen> | s/and/an/ |
| 08:16 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: is HTML5 supposed to allow XLink autolinks? |
| 08:17 | <annevk2> | http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2008/11/20/HTML-Pain |
| 08:19 | <annevk2> | seems that Tim Bray hasn't really done his homework |
| 08:19 | <hsivonen> | yeah |
| 08:20 | <annevk2> | because for half of the things he likes to do the "language specification" would be utterly unusable |
| 08:22 | <roc> | Are people actually opposed to the existence of Mike Smith's document? |
| 08:25 | <hsivonen> | roc: I'm not opposed to existence but I am opposed to existence on the REC track (where some people want to put it). |
| 08:25 | <annevk2> | I've seen some people being opposed; I'm not exactly sure why |
| 08:26 | <annevk2> | I don't think it should be normative given that then it would duplicate information of another normative specification, but I suppose I could live with it |
| 08:26 | <roc> | yeah it shouldn't be normative |
| 08:27 | <roc> | but otherwise it seems like a great thing |
| 08:31 | <hsivonen> | roc: It's great as a reference for people who like RELAX NG Compact Syntax |
| 08:31 | <annevk2> | I bet that if we wrote HTML5 in RDF everyone could easily get their own version they like using SPARQL |
| 08:31 | <roc> | it's not safe to even joke about such things |
| 08:32 | <hsivonen> | annevk2: see ARIA |
| 08:32 | <hsivonen> | (I like RELAX NG Compact Syntax) |
| 08:33 | <hsivonen> | (not as normative spec, though, because it's not sufficient and it's too easy for people to ignore the parts that don't get expressed as RELAX NG Compact Syntax) |
| 09:05 | <annevk2> | "On our way back the TSA told me I couldn't keep my apple juice. I asked if I could drink it first. They said only if I went back outside. I asked if they meant that my apple juice was a danger in the security area but safe outside, and they confirmed that that was the case." hahaha |
| 10:32 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Did you see that I have some new table inspector stuff for you to play with? |
| 10:35 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, yeah that's why I arrived here :) |
| 10:35 | <BenMillard> | why the change URL structure? are the costs really worth the gains? |
| 10:36 | <jgraham> | BenMillard:I set up a redirect |
| 10:36 | <jgraham> | So old links should work |
| 10:36 | <jgraham> | It is much easier to mintain with the new structure; no need to move stuff around on the server |
| 10:37 | <BenMillard> | oh, ok |
| 10:38 | <BenMillard> | I've tried a few old links and they work, but seem slow |
| 10:40 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, could you generate a link on the output page which points to where the table came from when inspecting via URI? |
| 10:40 | <jgraham> | It is possible that I could do better using symlinks or something. However if you can edit the old links, just remove the /cgi-bin/ |
| 10:40 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Sure |
| 10:41 | <BenMillard> | it seems the slowness of the links I tried was due to the complexity of the table being inspected :) |
| 10:41 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, oh that'll be easy enough to change on my blog...can't change archived e-mails though |
| 10:44 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, I take it the isHeading check means <td scope> isn't treated as a header cell in your implementation of Smart Headers? (http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/tables/lib/headers/smartheaders.py#54) |
| 10:48 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: <td scope> isn't |
| 10:48 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, thanks |
| 10:49 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, when clicking cells in the output, they become colour-coded which lets you see what the associations are. Because that's so effective, could you avoid showing the text of the associated header cells? |
| 10:49 | <jgraham> | BTW I moved the source to http://hg.jgraham.webfactional.com/hgwebdir.cgi/html5_tables/ |
| 10:49 | <BenMillard> | clicking through the cells to view associations wouldn't make the table's layout jump around |
| 10:49 | <jgraham> | I can resync that with the google code project if that is important to anyone |
| 10:52 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, the new location is fine by me |
| 10:57 | <Lachy> | ooh, Acid 3 changed again http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Nov/0015.html |
| 11:02 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Changes made. Time to do other stuff for a bit :) I will try to add experimental features some other time |
| 11:03 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, thanks, that works great! |
| 11:04 | <BenMillard> | hsivonen, the IE8 release schedule (and feedback, bug fixing, hints at when code freeze happens, etc) is mentioned here: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/11/19/ie8-what-s-after-beta-2.aspx |
| 11:25 | <hsivonen> | BenMillard: yeah, it indeed looks like release candidate doesn't mean that the last release candidate and the release are identical except for the version string (byte-for-byte same DLLs) |
| 11:37 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, I get a error message for Wikipedia pages which load in the browser: "The URI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_Testarossa could not be loaded." (http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FFerrari_Testarossa&source=&algorithm=smartheaders) |
| 11:43 | <hsivonen> | is this intranet stuff? http://www.w3.org/TR/webcgm21/ |
| 11:43 | <hsivonen> | I don't recall running into CGM content on the Web |
| 11:46 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Curious |
| 11:51 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Wikipedia is returning a 403. I guess it doesn't like the python UA string |
| 11:54 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, yeah they seem to take robots pretty seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/robots.txt |
| 11:56 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, copying and pasting the timeline from that page gives me a "Request-URI Too Large" |
| 11:57 | <BenMillard> | it used to work, which is why I included that example...they must have started blocking tools like yours quite recently :( |
| 11:59 | <jgraham> | I guess at some point I could add a file upload option which would sort of solve the problem |
| 12:02 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, I consider this Wikipedia's problem rather than yours. :) |
| 12:02 | <BenMillard> | I get a big error page for this: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fprojectcerbera.com%2Fblog%2F2008%2F09%2Funtangle&source=&algorithm=html5b |
| 12:03 | <BenMillard> | says "<type 'exceptions.IndexError'>: list index out of range" at the bottom |
| 12:03 | <BenMillard> | (original table here: http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2008/09/untangle) |
| 12:04 | <krijnh> | Any Opera dev in here? |
| 12:05 | <krijnh> | Need an explanation for http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/screenshots/test-1.png :) |
| 12:05 | <takkaria> | hsivonen: I've seen CGM->bitmap converters before, but not for years |
| 12:05 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: in Web clients? |
| 12:07 | <takkaria> | no, just things like imagemagick |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: my understanding is that WebCGM is uses in the airline industry, and perhaps also aerospace. but I don't really know the details |
| 12:19 | <Lachy> | krijnh, which version of Opera is that? |
| 12:19 | <krijnh> | 9.62 |
| 12:19 | <krijnh> | Just updated and restarted |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | ok, I'll test it and file a bug |
| 12:20 | <krijnh> | Well |
| 12:20 | <krijnh> | You can't test it |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | what? |
| 12:20 | <krijnh> | You'll get okay results |
| 12:20 | <krijnh> | I've got a script from a different site |
| 12:21 | <krijnh> | Which is applied to _all_ other tabs as well |
| 12:21 | <krijnh> | Which sets the height of #content to the viewport height |
| 12:21 | <krijnh> | Pretty silly stuff :) |
| 12:21 | <Lachy> | oh, I thought that was the bug |
| 12:21 | <Lachy> | so what's the problem then? |
| 12:21 | <krijnh> | That is the bug, I guess |
| 12:21 | <krijnh> | Err |
| 12:21 | <krijnh> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/screenshots/test-2.png |
| 12:22 | <krijnh> | I don't think a cached script should apply to all sites you visit |
| 12:22 | <krijnh> | (Unless it's a UserJS, which it is not) |
| 12:22 | <Lachy> | no, it shouldn't. Can you tell me how to reproduce it, or set up a page on which I can? |
| 12:22 | <krijnh> | I have no idea how I did it.. |
| 12:24 | <Lachy> | well, then I can't really help you, because a screenshot doesn't give enough diagnostic information |
| 12:24 | <krijnh> | I know.. |
| 12:24 | <krijnh> | I'm trying to figure out what's happening |
| 12:24 | <Lachy> | which page is the script on, which is applying to other tabs? |
| 12:25 | <krijnh> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/screenshots/test-3.png (where it is run twice now :) |
| 12:25 | <krijnh> | I think it's http://wijndomein.ah.nl/_js/all.min.js |
| 12:25 | <krijnh> | Could it be the length that messes things up? |
| 12:26 | <Lachy> | what's the build number of your Opera? |
| 12:26 | <krijnh> | 10467 |
| 12:26 | <krijnh> | Just downloaded |
| 12:26 | <krijnh> | I've had the same issue with 9.52 |
| 12:27 | <krijnh> | This is the second time I run into it btw, so it must be reproducable |
| 12:29 | <krijnh> | Hmm, clearing my cache doesn't solve it |
| 12:30 | <krijnh> | Restarting Opera neither |
| 12:37 | <Philip`> | You could hibernate your computer and then ship it to Opera to have someone debug it |
| 12:39 | <krijnh> | After clearing the cache, opera:cache should be empty, right? |
| 12:41 | <Lachy> | krijnh, if you backup and create a clean profile, does the problem still occur? |
| 12:55 | <krijnh> | Just turning off JS helps |
| 12:57 | hsivonen | wonders if krijnh's site has been targeted by browser.js |
| 12:57 | <krijnh> | It's not only my site |
| 12:59 | <ehird> | new gmail is awesome |
| 13:00 | Philip` | wonders if being targeted by browser.js should count as an honour that you're considered important enough to be worth it, or a disgrace that your site is so broken it can only be fixed via ugly hacks |
| 13:01 | <krijnh> | Cool, I get JS errors as well |
| 13:02 | <annevk2> | krijnh, maybe e-mail hallvord⊙oc with ah.nl in the subject line and a short description of the issue? |
| 13:02 | <krijnh> | hallvors is in here as well |
| 13:03 | <krijnh> | lol |
| 13:03 | <annevk2> | true, I believe he's not a fan of IRC though |
| 13:03 | <krijnh> | I'm a moron |
| 13:03 | <krijnh> | "Line 1 of User JS script" |
| 13:03 | <krijnh> | :] |
| 13:03 | <hsivonen> | ah. targeted by user.js then. :-) |
| 13:04 | <krijnh> | Not targeted |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: perhaps browser.js hacks are beautiful |
| 13:04 | krijnh | checks his userjs dir.. |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | well, collateral damage of user.js :-) |
| 13:04 | <krijnh> | Weeh, my Desktop |
| 13:04 | <krijnh> | Brilliant |
| 13:05 | <krijnh> | Fixed, sorry for wasting your time :) |
| 13:05 | Lachy | wonders what "Weeh, my Desktop" means |
| 13:05 | <krijnh> | Apparently I had a .js on my desktop |
| 13:05 | Lachy | will send krijnh a bill for the time spent |
| 13:05 | <krijnh> | Which got applied to every site |
| 13:05 | <krijnh> | Yeah, that's okay |
| 13:05 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Having looked at browser.js, I don't think they are :-) |
| 13:06 | <Lachy> | wtf? Having a JS on your desktop shouldn't be used by the browser |
| 13:06 | <Lachy> | at least, I hope it doesn't |
| 13:06 | <krijnh> | It is if your user js dir is your desktop |
| 13:06 | <krijnh> | Hence the moron part |
| 13:06 | <Lachy> | oh. Why would you set your user js dir to your desktop? |
| 13:06 | <krijnh> | I think I've tried it out once |
| 13:07 | <Lachy> | That's just crazy and leaves you wide open for various kinds of attacks |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | If you set your User JS directory to be the same as your cache directory, would that make every script from every page you've ever visited be applied to every page you visit in the future? |
| 13:07 | <krijnh> | Yes |
| 13:07 | <Lachy> | LOL |
| 13:08 | <krijnh> | Apparently it works without providing // ==UserScript== stuff in your js |
| 13:08 | <krijnh> | Without // @include stuff |
| 13:08 | <krijnh> | That's just an Opera bug, imho.. |
| 13:08 | <krijnh> | O:) |
| 13:16 | krijnh | doesn't get User JS |
| 14:03 | <Lachy> | JohnResig, yt? |
| 14:13 | <BenMillard> | this basically seems to describe what already happens in that the parts which are agreed are the parts which get experimental implementations, iterating and growing over time: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/11/20/Half-Full |
| 14:18 | <BenMillard> | and the annotation system allows the maturity level of HTML5 to be labelled with section-by-section granularity |
| 14:24 | <mookid> | hi fans |
| 14:29 | <mookid> | Philip`: did you do anymore thinking? :)) |
| 15:05 | <Philip`> | mookid: None that I can remember |
| 15:09 | <mookid> | meh; that email exchange was a bit of a let down |
| 15:21 | hallvors | thinks of the quote "removing options is evil". |
| 15:45 | <hsivonen> | the document organization discussion is a total bikeshed |
| 15:59 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: You gonna be around Cam in early Dec? |
| 15:59 | <gsnedders> | Like, around the 9th? |
| 15:59 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Yes |
| 16:00 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Want to have dinner on 8th/9th? |
| 16:01 | gsnedders | notes he has to fill out a form saying when he wants accommodation and when he wants meals in college |
| 16:01 | <gsnedders> | Interview is on the 9th |
| 16:01 | <gsnedders> | Sorry, interviews |
| 16:09 | <Philip`> | That could be possible |
| 16:27 | <JohnResig> | Lachy: what's up? |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Any preference for which day? 8th would probably be nicer for me |
| 16:34 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I don't think it would make any difference to me |
| 16:52 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Then the 8th. Say 19:00? |
| 16:53 | <gsnedders> | (i guess that'll need to be ± 5 mins to keep both of us happy) |
| 16:57 | <Lachy> | JohnResig, can you add some tests to your selectors api test suite to test that a NodeList is returned from querySelectorAll instead of StaticNodeList? |
| 17:03 | <JohnResig> | Lachy: how do you mean? |
| 17:04 | <Dashiva> | Oh boy, deconstructionist approach to HTML parsing |
| 17:08 | <Lachy> | JohnResig, var test = document.querySelectorAll("p"); pass = (test instanceof NodeList); |
| 17:13 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: ? |
| 17:14 | <JohnResig> | Lachy: meaning that StaticNodeList is a subset of NodeList? |
| 17:14 | <Dashiva> | "I do not believe there is some inherent meaning in the document that exists independently of its text. The producer has no more (or less) right to infer meaning from the document than the consumer does." |
| 17:18 | <Lachy> | JohnResig, there is no StaticNodeList in the spec. It was removed a long time ago |
| 17:33 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Sounds reasonable to me :-) |
| 17:33 | <Philip`> | though I'll forget unless I'm reminded |
| 17:36 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I'll remind 24 hours before, at least :P |
| 17:36 | gsnedders | has no idea whether there will be internet for interviewees |
| 17:36 | gsnedders | doubts it though |
| 17:43 | <hsivonen> | http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_thread/thread/f671b48712bd956f |
| 17:44 | <annevk2> | fun |
| 17:45 | <annevk2> | hendry, hehe, you really do hear your voice in the latest Standards Suck :) |
| 17:45 | annevk2 | thinks marcos should start publishing some more |
| 20:03 | <annevk2> | ooh, validator.w3.org does HTML5 |
| 20:03 | <annevk2> | guess I should update my code |
| 21:35 | <Lachy> | LOL. I wonder where Dmitry will find Developers crazy enough to implement his HTML6 proposals |
| 21:39 | <Hixie> | mark baker's opinions are coming into focus as something quite sensible |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | i don't really agree with him about wanting the DOM attributes and content attributes in different sections, but i don't think it'd be that hard to do for most attributes |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | for some it'd be difficult, though, like video |
| 21:41 | <Dashiva> | But wouldn't a stylesheet also handle that, for any separation within the same document? |
| 21:42 | <Hixie> | well he wants to see the definitions as far as i can tell, just clearly separated from the content attributes |
| 21:57 | <Lachy> | yeah, that could be something reasonable to do for some elements |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | the WebSocket and Structured client-side storage sections are reasonably self-contained, i guess i could split them out around last call time |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | would have to do something about MessageEvent |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | maybe we can get that into DOM3 Events |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | othermaciej_: btw, did you have any opinions on chaals' reply to my comments on the progress events stuff? |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | it would be helpful to know what would be most helpful for implementations |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | since if his style is better then i should change html5 to match |
| 22:19 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I'll take a look |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | thx |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | ok bbl. |
| 22:34 | <annevk2> | http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/001842.html :) |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | what the heck is the url to anolis |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | google can't find it anywhere |
