| 02:26 | <sayrer> | jgraham, all I meant was that it's not stable |
| 02:28 | <sayrer> | "the parsing work is stable to the extent that it can be without having implementations in major-marketshare browsers" |
| 02:28 | <sayrer> | I do not think this is true |
| 02:29 | <sayrer> | and if someone wanted to work on that piece as a separate document, that might be reasonable |
| 02:29 | <sayrer> | not automatically dismissed with something along the lines of "our way is the best way, move along" |
| 03:22 | <sayrer> | hmm, looks like html5lib doesn't parse the contents of the noscript element |
| 03:28 | <Hixie> | i don't understand this interest in splitting out html5 using this new scheme |
| 03:28 | <Hixie> | i've never seen a spec do this before |
| 03:29 | <Hixie> | (the "implementation" vs "authoring" split that some people want) |
| 03:30 | <sayrer> | that one doesn't make much sense to me either. DOM initialization vs. post DOM initialization is more sensible (parser/script dependencies notwithstanding). another more sensible split would be old stuff vs. new stuff |
| 03:35 | <Hixie> | sayrer: which "consistency and stability claims" are overblown and how are they overblown? |
| 03:36 | <Hixie> | sayrer: also, how is the HTML5 change control unsatisfactory? |
| 03:37 | <sayrer> | Hixie, well jgraham is claiming that the parser section is so stable that nothing further can happen without major browser implementation |
| 03:37 | <sayrer> | yet html5lib doesn't even do what the spec says regarding noscript |
| 03:37 | <Hixie> | sayrer: i doubt he thinks that _nothing_ further can happen |
| 03:38 | <sayrer> | "the parsing work is stable to the extent that it can be without having implementations in major-marketshare browsers" |
| 03:38 | <Hixie> | but it's certainly true that we're mostly just waiting for wide-scale implementation experience |
| 03:38 | <Hixie> | well that's true |
| 03:38 | <Hixie> | it's as stable as it can ever be without wide-scale implementation experience |
| 03:38 | <Hixie> | that doesn't mean nothing further can happen |
| 03:38 | <Hixie> | even a completely stable spec can change |
| 03:39 | <Hixie> | just not much |
| 03:39 | <Hixie> | even a shipped product (the epitomy of stable) can change, e.g. security fixes |
| 03:39 | <Hixie> | CSS2 was as stable as it gets, yet look at the amount of change _it_ went through |
| 03:41 | <sayrer> | just saying there's an obvious delta between the spec and a library that most major html5 contributors have commit access to |
| 03:41 | <Hixie> | so? |
| 03:42 | <sayrer> | surprised it could happen |
| 03:42 | <Hixie> | really? |
| 03:42 | <Hixie> | dude, all software has bugs |
| 03:42 | <Hixie> | all specs have bugs |
| 03:42 | <sayrer> | well, surprised it's never even been noticed |
| 03:42 | <Hixie> | i hate to be the one to break it to you |
| 03:44 | <Hixie> | sayrer: also, how is the HTML5 change control unsatisfactory? |
| 03:44 | <sayrer> | Hixie, I don't like the explicit private feedback challenges |
| 03:44 | <sayrer> | er |
| 03:44 | <sayrer> | channels |
| 03:45 | <Hixie> | yeah, nor do i |
| 03:45 | <sayrer> | like, I am guessing you did not invent MessagePort |
| 03:45 | <sayrer> | maybe I am wrong about that |
| 03:45 | <Hixie> | sadly, some people don't want to say anything in public because their products are secret, or whatnot |
| 03:45 | <Hixie> | invent how? |
| 03:45 | <sayrer> | it was quite different from the Apple and Mozilla proposals as I recall |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | proposals for what? |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | do you mean the worker stuff? |
| 03:46 | <sayrer> | yeah |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | workers are unrelated to messageport really |
| 03:46 | <Hixie> | though i did reuse them for that purpose since it seemed useful |
| 03:47 | <sayrer> | well, at any rate, I never proposed a course of action |
| 03:47 | <Hixie> | (messageport though, the api, was basically something i wrote up based on a series of proposals related to capabilities APIs through messages) |
| 03:47 | <sayrer> | I just don't think other editorial splits are obviously bad |
| 03:48 | <Hixie> | oh some are definitely good |
| 03:48 | <Hixie> | like we should split out the storage stuff eventually |
| 03:48 | <sayrer> | especially if someone is willing to do a document |
| 03:48 | <Hixie> | since that's pretty self-contained |
| 03:48 | <sayrer> | even if you don't suggest it |
| 03:48 | <sayrer> | anyway, gtg |
| 03:48 | <Hixie> | later |
| 06:56 | <Hixie> | there's no way to install ubuntu that doesn't require installing X? |
| 06:59 | <hdh> | i hear the server edition doesn't install X |
| 07:02 | <Hixie> | man that's hard to see on their site |
| 07:03 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 07:03 | <Hixie> | that's what i want |
| 11:01 | <jgraham> | Yeah, we should probably have provided feedback from html5lib that we wanted to (at least optionally) behave like a scripting UA even with no scripting support |
| 11:49 | <takkaria> | Hubbub has a scripting/no-scripting flag too |
| 11:55 | <Dashiva> | I wonder how much all this noise about reaching rec faster is contributing to slowing down rec :) |
| 12:25 | <gsnedders> | SNOW! |
| 15:21 | <maikmerten> | Question about the media API: Seeking works by setting currentTime to a new value (in seconds). Is there a special reason why currentTime isn't readonly and seeking works e.g. with a method seek(), taking a relative value (zero to one), which would cover the case when the duration of the stream isn't known (but it's filesize is) and rough seeking shall still be available. |
| 15:21 | <maikmerten> | s/./? |
| 15:22 | <maikmerten> | (there are media formats without a header containing duration, so all you got is the byte position if the client shouldn't try to find a timestamp at the end of the bytestream) |
| 15:23 | <gsnedders> | zero to one relative to the filesize? |
| 15:23 | <gsnedders> | (seeming the length isn't known) |
| 15:24 | <maikmerten> | yeah, if the duration in "proper time" isn't known one can still seek to an approximate position using the position of the bytestream |
| 15:25 | <maikmerten> | this, however, only works if seeking is not taking absolute time. The client can then find a fitting representation |
| 15:26 | <maikmerten> | if duration is known: Seek to the position (in seconds or whatever) |
| 15:26 | <maikmerten> | if only the length of the bytestream is known: Well, just jump to a position in there |
| 15:27 | <maikmerten> | I'm currently trying to implement a subset of the HTML5 media specs for a Java playback applet, which only knows bytepositions and thus always seeks relative |
| 15:29 | <maikmerten> | I *could* estimate the total duration in seconds given the current byteposition and the current timestamp the media stream has |
| 15:30 | <maikmerten> | but that means the duration will change during playback (and given how dynamic video bitrate is this estimate can be like 1000% off) |
| 15:30 | <maikmerten> | (the estimate will first be horrible and be more accurate at the end) |
| 15:31 | <maikmerten> | this isn't just specific to this applet thingie, but for some formats the clients really have to seek to the end of the file and find a timestamp befor the duration is known |
| 15:32 | <nessy> | it's why doublec has asked for a duration attribute |
| 15:32 | <maikmerten> | ah, I see :) |
| 15:32 | <maikmerten> | same solution as for my applet ;-) |
| 15:32 | <nessy> | not sure it will come though - and whether it's a good solution, because not every author may include that info |
| 15:32 | <maikmerten> | most won't |
| 15:33 | <nessy> | yeah, so the estimate is probably the best you can do |
| 15:33 | <maikmerten> | quite frankly I'd hope that currentTime would be currentPosition, which can either be seconds *or* byte position |
| 15:33 | <maikmerten> | and a flag indicating what it is |
| 15:33 | <maikmerten> | same for duration |
| 15:34 | <maikmerten> | but this smells like a hack |
| 15:34 | <nessy> | or a value marker (e.g. sec,B) |
| 15:34 | BenMillard | has radically simplified his Public-HTML message filter: it now marks everything without me in either the To or CC line as Read. |
| 15:34 | <maikmerten> | right |
| 15:35 | <nessy> | well, width/height take pixels, em and other entities, too |
| 15:35 | <nessy> | why not currentPosition |
| 15:35 | <Philip`> | BenMillard: You could simply unsubscribe from the group :-) |
| 15:35 | <maikmerten> | http://people.xiph.org/~maikmerten/demos/bigbuckbunny-applet.html <-- applet without duration given. Will still allow seeking (relative to byteposition) and display a progress bar (also byteposition). Works out okay in practice |
| 15:35 | <nessy> | yeah |
| 15:35 | <nessy> | write an email to the list suggesting this, I'd say |
| 15:36 | nessy | has to get some sleep |
| 15:36 | <maikmerten> | sweet dreams! |
| 15:36 | <maikmerten> | and yeah, will write a mail |
| 15:36 | <nessy> | yeah - 2:30am here :) |
| 15:36 | <nessy> | cool, cya |
| 15:37 | <BenMillard> | Philip`, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0096.html |
| 15:38 | <gsnedders> | BenMillard: Lazy so and so |
| 15:38 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: FWIW, .srt goes almost all the way considering the feature set of subtitling in Northern Europe (it lacks italics and placing text sometimes at the top of the frame) |
| 15:52 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, it seems column headers are applied to the column headers on their right and row headers are applied to the rows below them in the HTML5 (November 2008) mode: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fprojectcerbera.com%2Fblog%2F2008%2F09%2Funtangle&source=&algorithm=html5b |
| 15:53 | <BenMillard> | Step 1.5.5 and Step 1.5.10 seem to be the parts of HTML5 which are supposed to prevent that, by block associations coming from headers of the same height or width (depending on the axis) |
| 15:53 | <BenMillard> | s/block/blocking/ |
| 15:54 | <BenMillard> | (re: the "steps" in here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular-data.html#header-and-data-cell-semantics) |
| 16:00 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, only highlighting when clicking around a table makes checking the associations a dream |
| 16:02 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, Smart Headers works correctly across column headers and down row headers: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fprojectcerbera.com%2Fblog%2F2008%2F09%2Funtangle&source=&algorithm=smartheaders |
| 16:08 | <maikmerten> | (my proposals on relative seeking: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017387.html ) |
| 16:09 | <maikmerten> | (oh, nessy did leave the room) |
| 16:14 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: OK, I will have a look at what I did wrong |
| 16:21 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Does that do what you expect now? |
| 16:28 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, that fixes the bug I reported without regressions in the data cells |
| 16:29 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: I had forgotten to prevent header cells from ever forming associations |
| 16:29 | <BenMillard> | right, so in HTML5 headers don't associate with headers, ever, even when they have different spans and are next to each other? |
| 16:30 | <BenMillard> | (that's my reading of HTML5, btw, which your inspector now follows perfectly) |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | I believe that is correct |
| 16:31 | <gsnedders> | Why can we not have headers associating with headers? |
| 16:31 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, I think HTML5 will change in this respect (Smart Headers has always allowed header cells to have header cells) |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Hixie doesn't think that it makes sense for some reason I always forget |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: silly Hixie. |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | I think he is worried about UI issues (too much information being reported) |
| 16:33 | <jgraham> | But I think removing that information is premature optimisation and that UAs should be free to compete on which of the associations they read out in different circumstances |
| 16:34 | <jgraham> | e.g. travelling across a table they might only read the headers that changed, but on a keypress might read everything |
| 16:34 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, indeed |
| 16:34 | <jgraham> | Which I think largely eliminates the problem |
| 16:35 | <BenMillard> | in particular, it's needed when there are multiple levels of header cells and the lower levels have repetitve text which is disambiguated by the upper levels. such as: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0003/offset-mess.htm |
| 16:36 | <BenMillard> | in HTML5, reading across level 2 of the column headers doesn't report whether you are in the "Quirks Mode" or "Standards Mode" section of the table: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fwww-archive%2F2007Aug%2Fatt-0003%2Foffset-mess.htm&source=&algorithm=html5b |
| 16:36 | <BenMillard> | (similarly, level 3 doesn't report whether you are in <body> or <html> for either "Quirks Mode" or "Standards Mode") |
| 16:37 | <BenMillard> | in Smart Headers, the headers do associate with each other (so, for example, a user could query the final "scroll" to header "Standards Mode, <html>" which disambiguates where they are): http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fwww-archive%2F2007Aug%2Fatt-0003%2Foffset-mess.htm&source=&algorithm=smartheaders |
| 16:37 | <BenMillard> | s/to header/to hear/ |
| 16:40 | <BenMillard> | (I discussed this with Hixie over IRC a couple of months ago, which is why I think it will change: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080926#l-238) |
| 16:40 | <BenMillard> | gsnedders, ^^^ |
| 16:45 | <BenMillard> | perhaps I should include a diagram to explain the terminology my comparison document uses |
| 18:10 | <Hixie> | maikmerten: the browser is required to work out the duration |
| 18:11 | <maikmerten> | Hixie, that is a pretty heavy requirement |
| 18:12 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 18:12 | <maikmerten> | heh :) |
| 18:13 | <maikmerten> | what about concatenated files? |
| 18:13 | <maikmerten> | seeking to "the end" once is a reasonable requirement, I guess |
| 18:14 | <maikmerten> | I just wonder what to do in the nastier cases |
| 18:14 | <maikmerten> | (x files concatened, total duration would have to determined by determining "the end" for each segments, basically meaning a binary search for each) |
| 18:15 | <maikmerten> | oh the nastyness of media containers - seeking tables in the headers suck, not having those suck, too ;) |
| 18:20 | <Hixie> | you have to work out the time corresponding to the start and end of every set of bytes you have |
| 18:20 | <Hixie> | to populate the bufferedTimes attribute |
| 18:25 | <maikmerten> | pretty ambitious, but if all browser vendors implement this properly this'll be pretty cool stuff |
| 18:28 | <maikmerten> | anyway, one question about API design. I have no doubt it has received considerable... consideration. Why are some actions (let's take seeking) triggered by altering an attribute, while others (starting playback etc) are methods? |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | play() does more than set paused to false |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | it might also call load() |
| 18:37 | <Hixie> | which is why it's a method |
| 18:37 | <Hixie> | currentTime just seeks and sets currentTime |
| 18:42 | <maikmerten> | hmmm... won't it also alter other things? The video stops while the buffers need to be refilled etc. etc. |
| 18:42 | <maikmerten> | but anyway, I assume this just doesn't matter |
| 18:51 | <Hixie> | it's not a great worry to me, no :-) |
| 19:08 | <maikmerten> | :) |
| 21:16 | <BenMillard> | just noticed this in my feeds: http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/11/w3c_validator_now_with_html5.html |
| 21:17 | <BenMillard> | the "More Options" link opens an area with a "Document Type" dropdown, where "HTML5 (experimental)" is the 2nd option: http://validator.w3.org/#validate_by_uri+with_options |
| 21:18 | <KrocCamen> | http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcamendesign.com&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0 :) |
| 21:20 | <BenMillard> | krijnh, parentheses inside a URI works better in the logs than in Opera. well done B) |
| 21:21 | <BenMillard> | KrocCamen, I think this one is more interesting: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fprivacy.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.606 |
| 21:22 | <KrocCamen> | It’s only HTML5 by doctype though. |
| 21:22 | <KrocCamen> | No section / header / footer tags &c. |
| 21:23 | <KrocCamen> | Everybody should switch to the HTML5 doctype really though. I’m never writing another HTML4 site again, even if I don’t use HTML5 tags in order to support IE (which my site doesn’t). |
| 21:23 | <BenMillard> | KrocCamen, it's still conforming HTML5 on a google.com property :) |
| 21:23 | <KrocCamen> | Many of the Mozillians and W3C editors are at Google. |
| 21:23 | <KrocCamen> | Now Microsoft - that’s a different story |
| 21:23 | <KrocCamen> | Silverlight Ahoy! |
| 21:27 | <BenMillard> | KrocCamen, you wrote "For a 12 year old piece of software, the VB6 IDE still does it for me. Pure bliss." and I totally, if rather guiltily, agree! :D (http://camendesign.com/tweet/vb6-ide) |
| 21:28 | <KrocCamen> | It’s an odd piece of software. Not much software ages well. |
| 21:29 | <KrocCamen> | Everything else from that era is unusable. TextMate might age quite well. It is perfectly usuable and doesn’t need to do anything more. |
| 21:30 | <BenMillard> | the syntax highlighting is very conservative and all the better for it; the auto-indention does what I expect; I use Shift+F2 all the time; setting tab orders in the Forms view Works with a big W |
| 21:30 | gsnedders | dislikes TextMate |
| 21:30 | gsnedders | can never remember why |
| 21:30 | <BenMillard> | (my comment was about the VB6 IDE, btw) |
| 21:30 | <gsnedders> | Whenever I try it I like for around five minutes, then get really annoyed at it |
| 21:31 | <KrocCamen> | Hmm Mac text editors are important to users. It’s not like Windows where everything sucks equally. |
| 21:31 | <KrocCamen> | People rag on about BBedit, and I can’t personally bear it. |
| 21:31 | <gsnedders> | Urgh |
| 21:31 | <gsnedders> | BBEdit was good on OS 9 |
| 21:31 | jgraham | couldn't get the indentation to work in textmate |
| 21:31 | <gsnedders> | But now, it still seems as if it should be in BBEdit |
| 21:32 | <gsnedders> | *OS 9 |
| 21:32 | gsnedders | is too tired |
| 21:32 | <BenMillard> | I eventually cobbled together my own MDI text editor in VB6 so I could see how hard it is to make a text editor I like...turns out to be harder than I thought |
| 21:32 | <jgraham> | First rule of text editors: Unless you indent as well as emacs it is really hard for me to like you |
| 21:32 | <BenMillard> | especially since I'm plain awful at programming :P |
| 21:32 | <KrocCamen> | Before I switched to Mac, I used my own text editor for four years because I couldn’t find anything adequate, commercial or not, on Windows. |
| 21:34 | <KrocCamen> | There’s a feature I had though, that I’ve never seen in any other editor, and that I still pine for in TextMate. |
| 21:34 | <KrocCamen> | --Split Folder / File view. |
| 21:35 | <KrocCamen> | Screenshot here http://camendesign.com/InlineASP.png |
| 21:36 | <jgraham> | Just the directory tree thing on the left? |
| 21:37 | <jgraham> | Isn't that quite common? |
| 21:37 | <BenMillard> | (that Google Privacy page uses <meta charset="utf-8"> as well as <doctype html>, omitting a lot tags which are also optional in HTML4) |
| 21:37 | <KrocCamen> | Yeah. If a folder contains 1’000 files, you don’t want the folder tree that far apart. |
| 21:38 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I could never get into emacs or vim. Both are just horrid for a UX POV |
| 21:38 | <KrocCamen> | I’ve never seen it in another editor. It’s always combined folder/file view. |
| 21:38 | <jgraham> | Oh, I see you mean the way that the files are shown below the directories rather than in the same tree |
| 21:39 | <BenMillard> | KrocCarmen, I don't see the point in that. Windows Explorer provides that, from which you can drag and drop multiple files, folders, mixtures of both, etc |
| 21:39 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: emacs may not be pretty and may have weird keyboard shortcuts but it has awesome functionality and I am only a very trivial user |
| 21:39 | <KrocCamen> | It’s different in a web project, really. I used it for four years and I swear by it. |
| 21:41 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: For example the indentation in python-mode is better than anything else I have ever tried, AucTeX is the only thing that makes writing LaTeX bearable, js2 mode is wonderful |
| 21:42 | <jgraham> | This makes up for the weird modal interface and all the things that make UI people cry |
| 21:42 | <jgraham> | I have ever learnt more vi than how to quit it when I accidentially launch it though :) |
| 21:43 | gsnedders | just uses Ctrl + C to quit vim :) |
| 21:49 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Do you have an eta on the tables comparison thing? |
| 21:50 | <jgraham> | (don't worry if not, I'm just interested) |
| 21:51 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, my deadline is 1st December 2008 |
| 21:52 | <BenMillard> | I expect to make it available before then so I gather feedback and correct it |
| 21:52 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: OK. I may not be around much next week, epecially at the end but if you email me and I see it, I will have a look |
| 21:53 | <jgraham> | (assuming you are interested in my feedback of course :) |
| 21:55 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, of course I am! |
| 21:55 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, by next week do you mean the next 7 days, or the 7 days after that? |
| 21:55 | <BenMillard> | s/next 7 days/next 6 days/ |
| 21:55 | <jgraham> | I mean the 7 days leading up to the 1st |
| 21:55 | <jgraham> | I should have said this week :) |
| 21:56 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: that's still ambiguous |
| 21:56 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, in that case I'll throw it online right now (in it's very rough state) so you can take a look |
| 21:56 | <jgraham> | Well the week starts on a Sunday, right? |
| 21:56 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Depends who you ask :) |
| 21:56 | jgraham | expects gsnedders to quote some ISO standard at him now |
| 21:57 | <gsnedders> | ISO 8601 defines what first day of the week is |
| 21:58 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: ISO weeks start on Monday |
| 21:58 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I just looked that up... |
| 21:58 | gsnedders | just looked that up too |
| 21:58 | <hsivonen> | It's confusing when airline or hotel booking UIs use non-ISO weeks |
| 21:59 | <gsnedders> | I might not know what the standard says, but I know what standard to look at :P |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | OK, Ben, I will not be around much at the end of the nex ISO 8601 week |
| 21:59 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | is that clear? :) |
| 21:59 | <hsivonen> | (when the UI has a date picker with a week per row) |
| 22:00 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I guess :P |
| 22:00 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Week starts Sunday is common in colloquial usage in the UK |
| 22:00 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: No, it isn't. |
| 22:00 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Yes it is |
| 22:00 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: It's common in England. I can tell you Scotland is different. |
| 22:00 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: then your colloquial usage is non-conforming :-) |
| 22:01 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: In Scotland men wear what, and let's not beat about the bush here, is effectively a skirt |
| 22:01 | <jgraham> | so I'm not sure your opinion counts for much |
| 22:01 | <jgraham> | ;) |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders> | It is not! |
| 22:01 | <hsivonen> | on a more serious note, the really crazy part is that there are countries whose week numbering is non-conforming to ISO 8601 |
| 22:02 | jgraham | has a Scotish father |
| 22:02 | <jgraham> | Now non-conforming week numbering would indeed suck |
| 22:02 | <Dashiva> | hsivonen: Well, we wouldn't need two ways if nobody used the other way |
| 22:02 | gsnedders | has a Scottish grandfather |
| 22:03 | <jgraham> | Although week numbering strikes me as decidedly odd anyway |
| 22:03 | <hsivonen> | my parents had to deal with a Portuguese company that made up their own week numbers, which sucked |
| 22:03 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, gave you the link (it's not ready for public review yet) |
| 22:03 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Thanks :) |
| 22:04 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/3053429409/ — That's awesome |
| 22:05 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I had forgotten that I had just uploaded those |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 22:05 | <jgraham> | I need to write descriptions |
| 22:05 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders> | Needless to say, it is still awesome |
| 22:07 | <jgraham> | Thanks :) |
| 22:09 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: are you still in NZ? |
| 22:16 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: No, sadly not |
| 22:16 | jgraham | is just being rather slow at uploading photos |
| 22:17 | gsnedders | has been going through photos from August today |
| 22:26 | <hsivonen> | http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/11/21/ie-6-now-coming-to-a-cell-phone-near-you/ |
| 22:30 | <KrocCamen> | It’s almost like they’re unaware of the iPhone. |
| 22:30 | <jgraham> | Interesting. I guess it might not be popular enough for people to target it |
| 22:30 | <jgraham> | So there may be no practical effect |
| 22:30 | <gsnedders> | http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2008/11/11/internet-explorer-mobile-6.aspx which is what that cites says no such thing |
| 22:31 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2008/11/11/internet-explorer-mobile-6.aspx#9063740 |
| 22:31 | <KrocCamen> | If anybody were to enter the mobile IE team’s office with an iPhone, I think they’d die. |
| 22:32 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Nowhere does it say that it is based on WinIE6 |
| 22:32 | <KrocCamen> | Why would anybody make that assumption? Mobile IE is a different product. |
| 22:33 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: well, the comment I linked to sure implies that it's mainly IE6-based except for some components of which jscript is mentioned specifically as coming from IE8 |
| 22:33 | <KrocCamen> | That’s like saying Opera Mini 4 is based on Opera v4. |
| 22:33 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I don't read it like that |
| 22:33 | <hsivonen> | KrocCamen: rumor has it that the currently shipping Mobile IE is based on Desktop IE 4 |
| 22:33 | <hsivonen> | which is really sad |
| 22:33 | <jgraham> | KrocCamen: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10039152-56.html says it is based on IE6, which seems to be the source cited for that claim |
| 22:34 | <KrocCamen> | It would make sense in a way. IE4 was a major structural stabilisation of IE for modern content. |
| 22:34 | <jgraham> | s/ KrocCamen / gsnedders / |
| 22:37 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: if it isn't based on IE6, the naming is a huge PR blunder |
| 22:37 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, totally. |
| 22:37 | <KrocCamen> | IE Mobile Explorer Pro Win 2008 Version. |
| 22:37 | <KrocCamen> | Totally. |
| 22:39 | <KrocCamen> | Spot-quiz. Name one good Microsoft product name. |
| 22:39 | <BenMillard> | I've used Mobile IE and it's less capable than IE6 |
| 22:39 | <jgraham> | Word |
| 22:39 | <doublec> | Bob |
| 22:39 | <BenMillard> | Messenger |
| 22:39 | <KrocCamen> | That’s just generic, it’s not a name. |
| 22:39 | <BenMillard> | Explorer |
| 22:39 | <BenMillard> | oh... |
| 22:40 | <hsivonen> | Word, Excel, Windows, Internet Explorer seem like great product names |
| 22:40 | <BenMillard> | so what's the name of Explorer? |
| 22:40 | <jgraham> | The success that Microsoft has had in taking generic words and turning them into trademarks is astonishing |
| 22:40 | <hsivonen> | particularly Word, Windows and Internet Explorer |
| 22:40 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: indeed |
| 22:40 | <KrocCamen> | A good name is a brand of it’s own that people feel a affinity to. Firefox is one modern hero for example. |
| 22:40 | <jgraham> | I think windows less so, but word and internet explorer for sure |
| 22:41 | <KrocCamen> | Internet Explorer is a job description, not name XD |
| 22:41 | <jgraham> | Internet Explorer makes people think that the Blue E is the same as The Internet |
| 22:41 | <KrocCamen> | It may as well be called "Internet Browser". Or "The Blue E". |
| 22:42 | hsivonen | has wondered if Windows XP was meant to subliminally exploit the brand image of Jesus |
| 22:42 | <jgraham> | I think Powerpoint is likely also a good name although it does sound like it came out of a focus group |
| 22:43 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: ? |
| 22:43 | <KrocCamen> | I’ll give you that one Powerpoint is a reasonably good name. Excel too. |
| 22:43 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho |
| 22:44 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, an ex-girlfriend who used Firefox would say things like "wow...the Internet takes ages to start these days" so I think that's a mental model problem rather than a triump of branding :) |
| 22:45 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Ah. World religions would not be my chosen topic on Mastermind |
| 22:45 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 22:45 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Sure, but having "Internet" in the name must help surely |
| 22:46 | <KrocCamen> | Mental model is spot on. If anything, these brands and names are the problem. |
| 22:46 | <KrocCamen> | The LISA just had "text editor", it was more document centric than application centric. |
| 22:47 | <KrocCamen> | A truly good OS/UI wouldn’t have applications, it’d have psuedo applications via folder views. |
| 22:47 | <KrocCamen> | In a spatial browser, the "Music" folder would be a music player. The "Pictures" folder would be the picture app. That’s how I would imagine it. |
| 22:49 | <jgraham> | KrocCamen: I have several "Picture" apps and I find the OSX behaviour of trying to have magic folders tied to applications irritating |
| 22:49 | <KrocCamen> | Magic folders? Oh you mean bundles. |
| 22:49 | <jgraham> | So whilst I used to drink the document centric koolaid, I am not sure I am a believer anymore |
| 22:49 | <KrocCamen> | No, I don’t mean bundles that *launch* an app. I mean the folder view is the app. You open Music, and the folder view has extra buttons for play &c. |
| 22:49 | <jgraham> | KrocCamen: I mean things like the iphoto pictures folder |
| 22:50 | <jgraham> | Not the application bundles which are a fine idea |
| 22:52 | <KrocCamen> | I would combine the two. Take BeOS, and have application folders that are themselves the data folders. I would imagine in OS X terms, that you’d double click on ~/Music and you’d get finder still, but it’d be essentially iTunes. No database file, all searching/metadata done through the FS. |
| 22:52 | <KrocCamen> | (Like BeOS mail, a truly elegant app) |
| 22:54 | <BenMillard> | KrocCamen, IE uses actual files and folders for its Favourites and History. In IE8, address bar autocomplete (and similar features) use Windows Search |
| 22:54 | <KrocCamen> | With xattr / Spotlight, we really shouldn’t need these db files for each app. iTunes / Mail &c. |
| 22:54 | <jgraham> | How does it work if I have a file that I want to edit in either Lightroom or Photomatix? How does it work if, like Photomatix, I need to work on multiple files at the same time |
| 22:54 | <KrocCamen> | BenMillard - a pretty good example in a ways. |
| 22:55 | <KrocCamen> | jgrahm - that’s what needs to be debated. Where does brand / app and document divide. |
| 22:56 | <KrocCamen> | In an ideal world where we didn’t have competition or profit goals we wouldn’t need brands. Of course, that’s going to never happen. But for a very brief period, it did exist. Right back with the LISA/Mac. |
| 22:58 | <takkaria> | ideal worlds would have plenty of competition for me. :) |
| 22:58 | <KrocCamen> | (and XEROX Parc before that of course. All the pioneers of UI never thought in term of brands/products. I find that particularly fascinating) |
| 23:02 | <KrocCamen> | One good argument against the application-centric model is Adobe Reader. |
| 23:02 | <KrocCamen> | I feel like I could roll over and die having to use that app. It offends on so many levels. |
| 23:02 | <KrocCamen> | But Apple preview is a very document-centric app, being mostly transparent to the user |
| 23:03 | <KrocCamen> | Having a brand forced down your throat just to view a simple document is anti-user. |
| 23:09 | <BenMillard> | KrocCramen, this is the shabby homebrew VB6 text editor I made and use (based on standard MDIForm/MDIChild and RichTextBox): http://projectcerbera.com/tools/textstudio/ |
| 23:09 | <BenMillard> | jgraham has a point about automatic indention...it doesn't have that but I should add it |
| 23:10 | <BenMillard> | and syntax highlighting, and UTF-8 support, but those 2 are beyond my abilities |
| 23:11 | <KrocCamen> | Looks alright. I used an OCX control for indentation and syntax highlighting |
| 23:11 | <KrocCamen> | I forget it’s name though |
| 23:12 | <BenMillard> | given your strong views on UI, I feel blessed to have escaped with a "looks alright" :) |
| 23:17 | <KrocCamen> | Art is personality. |
| 23:19 | <KrocCamen> | UX for the masses is not the same as UX for solving problems :) |
| 23:25 | <jgraham> | BenMillard: Good indentation is a hard problem: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html (just under the orange heading that says "Missing highlighting") |
| 23:43 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, oh yeah doing it properly like that is WAY beyond me! |
| 23:43 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, I would have followed the VB6 IDE convention, which always assumes the "same indentation as the previous line" when you press Return |
| 23:44 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, with Tab increasing indention by 1 level (and applies to multiple lines of you select multiple lines) and Shift+Tab decreasing in the same way |
| 23:45 | <KrocCamen> | Sometimes computer’s shouldn’t overthink. It prevents the user expressing their artistic nature. |
| 23:52 | <jcranmer> | s/r's/rs/ |
| 23:53 | <jcranmer> | er, s /r’s/rs/ |
