| 01:07 | <Philip`> | PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND |
| 01:07 | <Philip`> | 22726 philip 20 0 2132m 711m 21m S 1 35.3 553:42.56 opera |
| 01:08 | <Philip`> | (This is with a total of one tab open, and that one is empty) |
| 01:08 | <Philip`> | I think Opera might have a memory leak :-( |
| 01:08 | <Philip`> | Steps to reproduce: 1) Browse the web for two weeks. |
| 01:14 | <BenMillard> | Al Gilman has made a survey about how to organise WAI-ARIA integration, which I've just filled in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0580.html |
| 03:42 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: initial containing block is neither html nor body, it's a box that contains html |
| 08:41 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: That's a bit vague. Can you be more specific? What sites are you meant to frequently visit throughout the two week period, for example? |
| 08:41 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 08:47 | <annevk3> | anyone any idea where the text in "Typical default display properties" in http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/#audio comes from? |
| 08:48 | <annevk3> | maybe Mike just scraped a UA style sheet? |
| 09:00 | <annevk3> | ah, it's from WebKit |
| 09:05 | <roc> | yeah, that was weird |
| 09:15 | <annevk3> | Hixie, in the IRC logs you commented somewhere on the usage of <keygen>, did you read http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/attachments/20080714/07ea5534/attachment.txt ? |
| 09:18 | <krijn> | BenMillard: yes, about that stats package |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | annevk3: right... where's the private key used? |
| 09:27 | Philip` | assumed it was used to identify the client in SSL connections |
| 09:28 | <gsnedders> | time to return to SETTLERS2 |
| 09:28 | <gsnedders> | That and Civ2 are two awesome procrastination tools. |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: oh. If the Document object itself cooresponds to the initial containing block, that makes the assertions I saw more interesting |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | s/oor/orr/ |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | i don't know if i'd phrase it such that the document itself is the icb, but i guess if you compare the dom to the render tree you would find a document in the dom in a position analogous to where the icb is |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | I somehow managed to get the frame constructor into a state where it asserted about null icb |
| 11:24 | gsnedders | stops after two hours of procrastination |
| 11:25 | Hixie | rambles on www-tag |
| 11:25 | <Hixie> | i wonder what to do about select.value |
| 11:25 | <Hixie> | we've had several requests |
| 11:25 | <Hixie> | its back compat story sucks |
| 11:25 | <Hixie> | er, <select value=""> i should say |
| 11:26 | <Hixie> | oh well |
| 11:26 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 11:41 | <Lachy> | Hixie, what is <select value=""> supposed to do? |
| 11:46 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Why can't you set the parser to XML when served as text/html on validator.nu? |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: you can |
| 11:47 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?=&doc=http%3A%2F%2Flabs.utopian.net%2Fblogs%2Fsimplish-demo%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml-transitional.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml.sch++http%3A%2F%2Fc.validator.nu%2Fall-html4%2F&parser=xml |
| 11:48 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: you need to check the box labeled "RFC 3023 Sucks" |
| 11:48 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Flabs.utopian.net%2Fblogs%2Fsimplish-demo%2F&schema=http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml-transitional.rnc+http%3A%2F%2Fs.validator.nu%2Fxhtml10%2Fxhtml.sch++http%3A%2F%2Fc.validator.nu%2Fall-html4%2F&parser=xml&laxtype=yes |
| 11:48 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Oh, that's counter-inuative |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: you aren't supposed to do that. you are supposed to fix your server config :-) |
| 11:49 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: :) |
| 11:49 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: But I said I want an XML parser dangnamit! |
| 11:50 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: in that case, the Accept header changes, but the server still sent text/html |
| 11:50 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: ah |
| 12:03 | gsnedders | +1s Hixie's email to www-tag |
| 12:03 | <hsivonen> | indeed |
| 13:34 | <hsivonen> | http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/parsing/encoding/055.html is interesting |
| 14:33 | <takkaria> | yay for ascii art |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | jgraham, annevk3: can you update your copies of Anolis on your web services? |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | after that, Hixie can regen the spec to fix the bug Lachy reported yesterday |
| 16:52 | <gsnedders> | Lachy_: does <http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/raw-file/b1648aaa8c8f/README.html#id-generation>; seem right? |
| 18:58 | Philip` | gets a new phone, which appears to have NetFront 3.3, and finds that it seemingly attempts to render the SVG on http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/ but only manages to draw a white rectangle with a black outline of the text |
| 19:00 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I will do that at some convenient moment |
| 19:00 | <jgraham> | Which may or may not be this evening |
| 19:07 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: :) |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | Lachy: <select value=""> would be a simple replacement for <select selected> |
| 20:01 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I've fixed the bug in Anolis causing the bug on 4.10.4.1.2 in the TOC; waiting on jgraham and annevk3 to update their web services :P |
| 20:02 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 20:02 | <Hixie> | hey he went away already |
| 20:08 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I assume you mean <option selected>. Do any browsers support <select value=""> already? |
| 20:08 | <Lachy> | if not, what's the point of it? |
| 20:08 | <Hixie> | er yes, <option selected> |
| 20:08 | <Hixie> | he point would be making scripts that output <select>s far easier |
| 20:09 | <Hixie> | it's not supported anywhere |
| 20:09 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Yeah, I don't hang around :) |
| 20:09 | <Lachy> | ok, so you could do <select value="b"><option>a<option>b<option>c</select> |
| 20:10 | <Lachy> | and if value="x" doesn't match one of the options, then would it fallback to selecting the first option, as if it wasn't specified? |
| 20:15 | <Philip`> | http://www.ipiao.com.cn/ does <select size="1" name="to"><script>City_Default="PEK"</script><SCRIPT language=javascript src="/js/flightcity.js"></SCRIPT></select> which is the kind of thing that could be much simpler with <select value="PEK"> |
| 20:17 | <Lachy> | I suppose mapping HTMLSelectElement.value to the new value attribute would be mostly backwards compatible. |
| 20:17 | <Lachy> | however, there would be an issue when there's a <option selected> and a conflicting value="" |
| 20:27 | <Hixie> | that's easy to sort out |
| 20:29 | <deltab> | wouldn't it be defaultValue? |
| 20:29 | <Hixie> | probably |
| 22:28 | <Philip`> | Hixie: <code title="attr-script-language"></code> in recent checkin |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | oops |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | thanks fixed |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: can you look over http://hg.gsnedders.com/anolis/raw-file/b1648aaa8c8f/README.html#id-generation? |
| 22:55 | Philip` | thinks people should write spec algorithms without unnecessarily relying on goto, since real programmers discovered that was a bad idea decades ago :-p |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | yeah i've been trying to move away from goto |
| 22:56 | <BenMillard> | jgraham, how come the cell "Indicates explicit relationship between this document and other resources. As such there are many good uses!" gets none of the 3 header cells from the 1st level applied to it here? Bug in the code or shortcoming of the algorithm? http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fkeryx.se%2Fresources%2Fhtml-elements.xhtml&source=&algorithm=smartheaders |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | Philip`: unfortunately english doesn't have well-defined structured flow constructs |
| 22:57 | <Philip`> | Inventing some syntax for 'while' and nested 'if' seems like it should be easier to read than these "11. Jump back to step 8." things |
| 22:58 | <BenMillard> | it has nested lists and says "for each foo, repeat these steps" or similar in some places, which seems good |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | i've definitely stopped using "jump back to step N" |
| 22:59 | <BenMillard> | Roy Fielding gave feedback on the structure of algorithms in HTML5, IIRC |
| 22:59 | <BenMillard> | something about multiple exit points? |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | uri? |
| 22:59 | <BenMillard> | it was some time ago...I'll try to find it |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | Multiple entry points are far nastier than multiple exit points |
| 23:01 | <BenMillard> | Philip`, maybe that was it...still looking |
| 23:01 | <Dashiva> | I suggested Hixie should use labelled loops a while back, since plain English for 'break' and 'continue' are also confusing with nested loops :) |
| 23:01 | <Philip`> | (Most people seem perfectly happy to sprinkle 'return' all through their code, since it's easy to see the exits when you're reading through the code, whereas unrestrained gotos can jump anywhere and you can't see them) |
| 23:01 | <BenMillard> | aha |
| 23:02 | <Philip`> | (INTERCAL solves that last problem by using COME FROM instead of GOTO, so you don't have to worry about invisible entry points in your code) |
| 23:02 | <Dashiva> | I was just bout to mention intercal :) |
| 23:02 | <BenMillard> | search for "entry" here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0980.html |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: regarding that table, looks like a bug in the tool; as far as i can tell the heading cells should apply per spec |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: basically i do labelled loops now |
| 23:03 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, that link is to the e-mail from Roy, August 2007 |
| 23:03 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, yeah that may well be the case |
| 23:04 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, the algorithm is significantly better than it was. Most problems with it before have been fixed |
| 23:05 | <BenMillard> | Hixie & jgraham, in the HTML5 mode the 3 1st-level of header cells are applied. However, the "Information" header in the 2nd level is not applied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0980.html |
| 23:05 | <Lachy> | But I have a problem with the way the variable i is incremented |
| 23:06 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, my reading of the HTML5 algorithm is that both levels should be applied to the data cell, but the header cells don't apply to each other? |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: i don't really understand that e-mail |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: yeah, i think that's right |
| 23:07 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, to illustrate, consider a page which contains these elements throughout the page: <span title="foo"/>...<span title="bar"/>...<span title="bar"/>...<span title="foo"/> |
| 23:08 | <Lachy> | per the algorithm, the IDs will be: foo, bar, bar-1, foo-2 |
| 23:08 | <BenMillard> | Hixie, me neither...but I remembered it talked about entry points and exit points of algorithms, so it seemed on-topic :) |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: :-) |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | BenMillard: turns out i replied: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/0993.html |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | looks like he ignored my e-mail |