| 00:00 | Dashiva | looks for shrimps to toss |
| 00:00 | <Lachy> | (that is, unless I'm mistaken about "barbie" being aussie slang) |
| 00:01 | <heycam> | it's certainly a commonly parodied contraction... |
| 00:03 | <sicking> | if they were having fosters at the barbie i think it's pretty safe to assume it's authentic Australian |
| 00:03 | <heycam> | lol |
| 00:03 | heycam | is always surprised to see fosters advertised when abroad |
| 00:03 | <Lachy> | sicking, real Aussies don't drink Fosters. That's the crap we export |
| 00:04 | <sicking> | Lachy, i know :) |
| 00:06 | <heycam> | is it en_UK or en_GB? |
| 00:07 | <heycam> | aspell doesn't seem to have en_AU support |
| 00:09 | <Lachy> | heycam, en-GB |
| 00:09 | <heycam> | hmm, i've always had LANG=en_AU.UTF-8 |
| 00:09 | <Lachy> | I'm not sure what variants en-UK would have |
| 00:09 | <heycam> | i wonder if that underscore is wrong |
| 00:10 | heycam | gives up for now |
| 01:03 | <robburns> | zcorpan: saw your comments on tHTML. That div in head was an error on my part. Not at all the type of parsing I intended. Thanks for pointing it out. |
| 01:26 | <heycam> | does <script type="text/javascript;version=1.6"> mean anything special beyond <script type="text/javascript">? |
| 01:28 | <roc> | yeah, it enables language features |
| 01:28 | <heycam> | without a version, what does it default to? |
| 01:28 | heycam | is wondering how to expose JS-that's-not-ES232 features in batik |
| 01:29 | <roc> | you quickly reached the limits of my knowledge |
| 01:29 | <heycam> | :) |
| 01:37 | Hixie | wishes there was no out-of-band versioning data for JS |
| 01:38 | <heycam> | so basically i was wondering if it would be reasonable to make <svg:script type="text/javascript;version=1.6"> turn on the relevant feature flags in rhino |
| 01:39 | <heycam> | or perhaps even distinguish between {text,application}/javascript and {text,application}/ecmascript to turn on the features |
| 01:40 | <heycam> | currently all JS-and-not-ES features are turned off, and i'm enjoying using 'for each' and 'let' lately in my own project using rhino |
| 01:40 | <heycam> | so though it might be good to expose them somehow |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | any reason they can't just be turned on by default? |
| 01:41 | <heycam> | only my lack of knowledge about what the appropriate thing to do is |
| 01:43 | gavin_ | tries and fails to determine how gecko handles a missing version |
| 01:44 | <gavin_> | we end up with JSVERSION_UNKNOWN at http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/dom/src/base/nsJSEnvironment.cpp#3676 , and I don't see where that case is handled |
| 01:44 | <gavin_> | (in the JS engine) |
| 01:44 | <gavin_> | I suppose that just means it falls back to "default" language features |
| 01:45 | <heycam> | might be http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsParserUtils.cpp#282 that does that |
| 01:47 | <gavin_> | oh, actually I misread |
| 01:47 | <gavin_> | http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsScriptLoader.cpp#391 takes another path if there is no version at all |
| 01:49 | <gavin_> | and in fact we'd actually end up in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/base/src/nsScriptLoader.cpp#442 without the type="" attribtue at all |
| 01:49 | <gavin_> | ...and you already found that |
| 01:50 | heycam | goes to lunch, thanks for looking gavin_ |
| 01:51 | <gavin_> | needed something to get my mind off fennec panning code :) |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | good lord |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | what have i gotten myself into |
| 02:15 | <Dashiva> | Is that a rhetorical question? |
| 02:16 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: it's hard to figure out a unique referent for that complaint |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | the direct referrent was the big swamp of a mess around the presentational attributes for setting margins on <body> |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | and more generally the rendering section as a whole |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | and more generally still, html5. |
| 02:22 | <Dashiva> | Just a few more steps until all of creation |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | i only took responsibility for html5 :-P |
| 02:27 | <Dashiva> | Pssh, surely you'll need something to do after 2022 |
| 02:29 | <jruderman> | annevk: you might enjoy opera bug 246216 |
| 02:34 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: i'll wait til 2022 to find out what i feel like doing :-P |
| 02:40 | <Hixie> | holy crap |
| 02:40 | <Hixie> | i can set the margins on a <body> element cross-domain in all four major browsers |
| 02:41 | <roc> | woohoo |
| 02:41 | <Hixie> | i can't think of any way to abuse that off the top of my head |
| 02:41 | <Hixie> | but that's surprising nonetheless |
| 04:01 | Dashiva | wonders if six separate replies at once really was the best way to move the discussion ahead |
| 04:24 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: any of them include use cases? |
| 04:30 | <Dashiva> | Looks more like the requesting uses cases kind |
| 04:30 | <Dashiva> | *use |
| 04:30 | <Hixie> | well at least it takes about use cases then i guess |
| 05:03 | <dbaron> | are the non-fieldset uses of <legend> in HTML5 intended to be display:block or display:inline ? |
| 05:03 | <Hixie> | block |
| 05:03 | <dbaron> | I'm guessing display:block, but I'm not sure... |
| 05:03 | <dbaron> | k |
| 05:03 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#display-types |
| 05:04 | <Hixie> | (that section is very new and very much a work in progress; please let me know if you spot any mistakes but don't be surprised to see basic things wrong there) |
| 09:22 | <annevk> | jruderman, I'm not a huge fan of the mess that is CSS syntax, but sure :) |
| 09:39 | annevk | found a CSS 2.1 bug in IE8 by studying a handful of CSS 2.1 compliance tests from MS |
| 09:40 | <othermaciej> | heh |
| 10:12 | <annevk> | why should width="0032" not be valid? |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | Hixie, also "0032" does not return an error per the algorithm... |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | Hixie, for dimension values |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | Hixie, the step of collecting 0 characters after the fraction substeps is not necessary |
| 10:17 | <Hixie> | it's necessary to drop "0.9" |
| 10:17 | <Hixie> | and it doesn't matter what's valid |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | in fact i've commented out the definition of "valid dimension value" in the working copy |
| 10:18 | <Hixie> | since nothing uses it |
| 10:19 | <annevk> | I see... my last comment still stands though |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | oh after the fraction substeps |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | wow what's that doing there |
| 10:20 | Hixie | removes |
| 10:21 | <annevk> | Hixie, "maps to the dimension property" uses both <var>properties</var> and <var>property</var> |
| 10:22 | <Hixie> | thx |
| 10:39 | annevk | finds out zcorpan joined the XML Core WG |
| 10:39 | <zcorpan> | about time :) |
| 10:40 | <zcorpan> | (not that you found out but that i joined) |
| 10:44 | <Hixie> | i saw that too |
| 10:44 | <Hixie> | what made you join the xml core wg? :-) |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | going to change their mind about xml:id? :p |
| 10:45 | <othermaciej> | that would be a boon to mankind |
| 10:45 | <hsivonen> | yes, please! |
| 10:45 | <zcorpan> | update xml-stylesheet |
| 10:46 | <zcorpan> | i guess i have to make opera drop support for xml:id before suggesting the wg drop it |
| 10:48 | <Hixie> | holy crap, you're giving xml-stylesheet the 5 treatment? |
| 10:48 | <Hixie> | that'd be awesome |
| 10:49 | <Hixie> | does that mean anne is going to do the cssom side too? :-) |
| 10:49 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 |
| 10:50 | Hixie | jumps into that spec and feels eerily familiar with a lot of the text :-P |
| 10:50 | <Lachy> | Hixie, re the list header thread, I was thinking the same thing but using an <h1> element instead. like <figure><h1>A header for the list</h1><ul><li>...</ul></figure> |
| 10:50 | <Lachy> | but I suppose <legend> is reasonable |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | h1 would screw up the outline |
| 10:51 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: i wrote it from scratch! promise! :rolleyes: |
| 10:51 | <Lachy> | no, cause <figure> is a sectioning root, and the spec says it wouldn't |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | unless they really wanted that, in which case <section> would be better than <legend> |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | oh it is? |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | sweet |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: :-P |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: re 3.1 Conformance constraints |
| 10:52 | <Lachy> | Hixie, could you make a note to add an example of this use case to the spec |
| 10:52 | <Lachy> | or I could send mail if you like |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: it's unclear what those conformance requirements mean. are they well-formedness checks, or just conforamnce requirements that mean nothing except to any implement except henri? |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | Lachy: file a bug or send mail, yes please |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | Lachy: note that i just added it to the faq |
| 10:53 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: the latter |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: section 4 explained it to me, yeah. a note in 3 would be helpful. |
| 10:54 | <zcorpan> | noted. thanks |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: (in particular, because with xml, one never knows what is expected to be the end of the world and what should be ignored) |
| 10:55 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: (it wouldn't be a big deal if this was, say, css or html) |
| 10:55 | <Hixie> | man, i've really corrupted y'all |
| 10:55 | <Hixie> | this state machine feels eerily familiar! |
| 10:56 | <zcorpan> | lol |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | "must stop the state machine so that pseudo-attributes can be processed" could be clearer, it wasn't obvious to me how important that sentence was (namely that it represents the "output" of the algorithm) on my first reading. I don't have a good suggestion for improving it though. |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | btw, your <dfn> elements aren't styled, which makes understanding what terms are special harder than ideal |
| 10:59 | <zcorpan> | i switched to the w3c style sheet |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | "the user agent must begin to download the resource" should probably be a "should", since there are numerous reasons why the UA might not actually download the resource |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | e.g. the user is roaming on a different continent and style sheets cost $3 per byte |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | Hixie, for background="...", shouldn't it set background-image to "url(" absolute URL ")" ... |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | er yes |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | er well |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | CSS doesn't quite define the appropriate hooks I'm afraid |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 11:01 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: changed |
| 11:03 | <Hixie> | looks like a good spec overall |
| 11:03 | <Hixie> | you're going to need hooks into anne's non-existent (iirc) cssom draft |
| 11:03 | <Hixie> | e.g. to define how this hooks up to alternative style sheets |
| 11:04 | <annevk> | it does actually exist, but I haven't found time to work on it in the past year or so :/ |
| 11:04 | <Hixie> | annevk: i'm going to leave it as setting it to hte URL, and claim that url(...) is a URL (and that a URL isn't a string) |
| 11:04 | <Hixie> | annevk: i know, i'm just teasing :-) |
| 11:04 | Hixie | finds that working on two drafts at a time is hard enough |
| 11:05 | jgraham | wishes he knew why his hard drive was spinning so much |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | what OS? |
| 11:05 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: thanks |
| 11:06 | <hsivonen> | I believe annevk is right and Rob Burns isn't when it comes to Unicode normalization in a conforming XML processor |
| 11:07 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Linux (Ubuntu) |
| 11:07 | <Hixie> | jgraham: use lsof(1) |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | Hixie, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#file-upload-state .value does apply to <input type=file> ... |
| 11:11 | <Hixie> | annevk: send mail |
| 11:11 | <Hixie> | or file a bug |
| 11:11 | <Hixie> | you're right, i should just make it apply with mode "filename" or some such |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | I'll file a bug |
| 11:46 | <Hixie> | i like how every browser supports font-size:xxx-large |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | I like how for filing spec bugs test cases are not a requirement |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | Hixie, Opera does not |
| 11:53 | <annevk> | Hixie, Firefox does not... |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | hey look at that |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | there's a bug in my testcase |
| 11:53 | <Hixie> | nevermind! |
| 11:53 | <Lachy> | Hixie, we have a bug about submitting forms to fragment identifiers. e.g. <form action="#top">. I can't figure out from the spec what the expected behaviour is supposed to be |
| 11:54 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 11:57 | <Hixie> | per spec, the fragment identifier should have no effect |
| 11:57 | <Hixie> | (except for changing how the url is resolved) |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | though it should survive the request and potential redirects |
| 11:57 | <Hixie> | (in the presence of a <base> element, e.g.) |
| 11:57 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 11:59 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | oh great, Opera has a bug per HTML5 in font handling |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | <font size=+> is treated as a presentional hint |
| 12:01 | <Hixie> | really? |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | yeah, but not in e.g. Firefox |
| 12:02 | <Hixie> | oh yeah |
| 12:02 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 12:02 | <Hixie> | opera only |
| 12:02 | annevk | checks IE |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | yeah, Opera only |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | but hey, our behavior is conforming anyway :p |
| 12:07 | <Hixie> | conforming but "unexpected" :-) |
| 12:17 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: "The td and th elements' height attributes map to the dimension property 'height' on the element." is stated twice |
| 12:18 | <Hixie> | i removed a copy, i hope that was not a more serious error |
| 12:25 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: surely <div align=justify> should justify the text, not left-align? |
| 12:25 | <Hixie> | you'd think |
| 12:25 | <Hixie> | can you get IE to justify text? |
| 12:25 | <zcorpan> | just tested in opera and firefox |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | ie8 |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | yep |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | also in quirks mode |
| 12:28 | <Hixie> | url? |
| 12:29 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20align%3Djustify%3Eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa |
| 12:29 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3Dwidth%3A100px%20align%3Djustify%3Etest%20tes%20te%20st%20fdkjla%20fdalk%20fds%20fjd%20sfs%20afsd |
| 12:30 | <annevk> | same for IE6 |
| 12:31 | <zcorpan> | i see it for <td> though |
| 12:32 | <zcorpan> | however opera, firefox and webkit justify for <td> |
| 12:33 | <zcorpan> | and i haven't seen pages break because of it |
| 12:34 | <zcorpan> | so i'd go with the majority :) |
| 12:35 | <zcorpan> | in fact, ie doesn't support 'justify' on tables at all |
| 12:35 | <zcorpan> | <table><tr align=right><td align=justify>foo bar |
| 12:35 | <zcorpan> | is right-aligned |
| 12:36 | <zcorpan> | (insert width=100% on the table tag) |
| 12:36 | <annevk> | ooh, did zcorpan just beat Hixie in a reverse engineering match? :D |
| 12:37 | <jgraham> | I guess Kixie is lining up for a killer blow :) |
| 12:37 | <jgraham> | *Hixie |
| 12:37 | <Hixie> | i was testing <div> inside <caption> primarily, iirc |
| 12:40 | <zcorpan> | justifies for me |
| 12:40 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Ctable%20width%3D100%25%20border%3E%0D%0A%3Ccaption%20width%3D100%25%20style%3Dborder%3Asolid%3E%20%3Cdiv%20align%3Djustify%3Eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa%20aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa |
| 12:41 | <Hixie> | i wonder what i was doing |
| 12:41 | <Hixie> | oh well |
| 12:44 | <Hixie> | fixed |
| 12:45 | annevk | changes topic to 'WHATWG (HTML5) -- http://www.whatwg.org/ -- Logs: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ -- Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks! -- zcorpan 1 : Hixie 0' |
| 12:51 | <Hixie> | ok tomorrow i begin on 10.4 Self-contained features |
| 12:51 | <zcorpan> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!doctype%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20align%3Dright%3E%0D%0A%20%3Ctable%20border%20style%3Dmargin-right%3Aauto%3E%3Ctd%3Ex |
| 12:51 | <Hixie> | feel free to send mail on 10.3 stuff |
| 12:51 | <Hixie> | i'm going to bed now |
| 12:51 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 12:51 | <zcorpan> | nn |
| 12:52 | <jgraham> | goodnight |
| 13:02 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200902/validating_wai-aria_in_html_and_xhtml/ - apparently roger wants html4+aria with landmarks, too |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: does at least one of Gecko/WebKit/Presto/Trident expose landmarks to AT? |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: there's no dedicated way to expose landmarks (yet), but gecko expose them as any other (unknown) role, i think |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | or maybe that has changed now, i haven't followed aria stuff closely lately; ask aaronlev |
| 13:06 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 13:07 | <zcorpan> | i am unaware of any browser+AT combination that does something useful with landmarks |
| 13:07 | <zcorpan> | but as i said i'm not on top of the topic :) |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | we need more spec minions |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | does anyone have concrete data that shows the necessity of autodetecting BOMless UTF-16? |
| 13:14 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: No, but define "necessity" |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | I want to avoid the problems that accidental detection as UTF-16 causes if at all possible |
| 13:14 | <annevk> | maybe for non-Western sites generated by PHP that do not declare an encoding but are using UTF-16? (PHP has issues with BOM) |
| 13:15 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: something that would be considered a regression that'd need fixing in Gecko |
| 13:17 | <hsivonen> | so far I know that if Chinese probabilities are loaded but Cyrillic probabilities aren't, bad stuff can happen on Cyrillic sites |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | got email from stevef: [[ supported in JAWS 10 |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | detailed info |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=106 |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/landmarks.html ]] |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | thanks |
| 13:20 | <hsivonen> | I don't like the way the implementation order of HTML5 intrinsic landmarks and ARIA landmarks played out, but I guess that's enough of a reason to stop trying to object to ARIA landmarks |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | not enough* |
| 13:26 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, would you have preferred implementers to get the HTML5 elements implemented first, reducing the need for aria landmarks at all? |
| 13:26 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I'd have preferred HTML5 elements getting exposed as landmarks first and then not doing ARIA landmarks at all |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | agreed, that would have benefited authors as well |
| 13:27 | <Lachy> | yeah, that's basically what I argued for when the aria discussion started |
| 13:37 | <yecril71> | Attributes in XHTML are in the default namespace. |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | they are not in a namespace |
| 13:38 | <yecril71> | Therefore, xhtml:content would not refer to anything particular. |
| 13:40 | <yecril71> | All right, I should have rather used "global namespace" instead. |
| 13:41 | <yecril71> | List headers can be simulated using DL; I have updated the FAQ with an example. |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: the right term is "in no namespace" |
| 13:42 | <hsivonen> | actually, "not in a namespace" as anne said is probably even more correct |
| 13:43 | <yecril71> | so getAttributeNS("content", "") should fail? |
| 13:43 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: "not in a namespace" is represented as null as the NS URI in the DOM |
| 13:43 | <hsivonen> | as the empty string in SAX |
| 13:44 | <yecril71> | so getAttributeNS("content", "") should fail? |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | yes |
| 13:44 | <yecril71> | Thx |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | getAttributeNS(null, "content") is the same as getAttributeNS("", "content") fwiw |
| 13:46 | <hsivonen> | oh |
| 13:46 | <yecril71> | Sorry for getting the parameters upside down :-( |
| 13:47 | <hsivonen> | annevk: is that a Web DOM thing or a W3C DOM thing? |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | hsivonen, W3C DOM aliases "" and null |
| 13:48 | <yecril71> | Is it possible to go out of namespace with xmlns attribute? |
| 13:49 | <yecril71> | (to leave the current namespace, that is) |
| 13:51 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: do you mean xmlns=""? |
| 13:53 | <yecril71> | I thought xmlns="" restores the global namespace. |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | there's no global namespace |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | that's XML 2.0 fiction |
| 13:53 | <yecril71> | Aha. |
| 13:54 | <yecril71> | So the effect is "no namespace", right? |
| 13:55 | <Philip`> | Is it something like xmlns="" or xmlns:foo="" that's forbidden in XML 1.0 but allowed in XML 1.1? |
| 13:56 | <yecril71> | xmlns:foo="" is forbidden. |
| 13:56 | <yecril71> | "The empty namespace must go unprefixed", MSXML says. |
| 13:58 | <Lachy> | yecril71, using a <dl> to simulate a list header doesn't seem semantically correct to me |
| 13:59 | <yecril71> | It is part of a larger paradigm, using DL to simulate a record. |
| 14:00 | <yecril71> | In JSON, it would go { apples: [ ... ] } |
| 14:00 | <annevk> | Philip`, it's xmlns:foo="" though there has been talk on lifting the restriction |
| 14:01 | <Philip`> | annevk: Lifting it in a new edition of XML 1.0? |
| 14:01 | <annevk> | of Namespaces in XML 1.0 |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | the wording is not that good either currently "In such declarations, the namespace name may not be empty." |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | I think I raised that as an issue |
| 14:02 | Philip` | is being too lazy to write "Namespaces in" when he refers to it :-) |
| 14:03 | <yecril71> | It is not clear whether "name" refers to the prefix or to the URL. |
| 14:03 | <yecril71> | I would say it refers to the prefix because it is more like a name. |
| 14:03 | <annevk> | Philip`, actually, maybe it won't be changed, see NE14 in http://www.w3.org/XML/2006/xml-names-errata |
| 14:04 | Philip` | decides to not see NE14, since he's currently using Cygwin and it takes far too much effort to copy-and-paste a URL |
| 14:09 | Philip` | finds Minefield complaining that the Microsoft .NET Framework Assistant extension is incompatible, which is a bit confusing since he never installed that extension |
| 14:10 | <zcorpan> | whey, basefont? |
| 14:10 | <zcorpan> | why did Hixie spec basefont? |
| 14:11 | <zcorpan> | i thought we could get away with not supporting it |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | don't we support it? |
| 14:14 | <zcorpan> | no (iirc) |
| 14:14 | <zcorpan> | only ie supports it |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | afaict we do |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | in IE8 mode? |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | Firefox does not |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?x%3Cbasefont%20size%3D7%3E1%3Cfont%20size%3D%2B0%3ELARGE?%3C%2Ffont%3E |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | IE of course supports it in a way that is different from most browsers, it actually encloses elements |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | HTML5 does not support it in the IE way |
| 14:18 | <zcorpan> | oh we only support it for relative size on <font> |
| 14:18 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | what does WebKit do? |
| 14:19 | <zcorpan> | same as firefox |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | seems better to drop it then |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | going with something that's Opera compatible and not IE/Gecko/WebKit compatible is bound to be troubling |
| 14:21 | <zcorpan> | it's only not compatible with ie if people include </basefont> |
| 14:21 | <Lachy> | yikes! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Feb/0029.html |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | in my testcase IE renders "1" very large as well |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | per HTML5 and Opera it should not |
| 14:24 | <zcorpan> | annevk: ok. i don't object to dropping it :) |
| 14:25 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: hmm, i don't see how the "mime type document" is in conflict with html5 |
| 14:29 | <Lachy> | I don't know either |
| 14:29 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: the mime type document encourages people to serve DOM Consistency-violating XHTML+RDFa docs as text/html |
| 14:30 | <zcorpan> | ah |
| 14:31 | <Lachy> | oh, wow. The old NOTE that I read didn't say anything about RDF |
| 14:31 | <zcorpan> | but that's more a problem of RDFa violating DOM Consistency |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: the note tiptoes around RDFa without being too specific about it, but it you read carefully, it doesn't put RDFa in the same bucket as MathML |
| 14:32 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, the mime types draft says "In particular, 'text/html' is NOT suitable for XHTML Family document types that add elements and attributes from foreign namespaces, such as XHTML+MathML [XHTML+MathML]." |
| 14:32 | <Lachy> | oh |
| 14:32 | <Lachy> | I havne't read it in detail. Maybe I will later |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: well, the RDFa attributes themselves aren't from a foreign namespace |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: xmlns:foo could be construed to be, but only in the DOM representation |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | s/DOM/XML DOM/ |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | infoset-wise, one might argue that xmlns:foo slips past the qualification |
| 14:34 | <Lachy> | I suppose, technically, now it is in conflict with HTML5 because it says you can't use MathML in text/html, but now HTML5 says you can |
| 14:34 | <hsivonen> | well, that, too |
| 14:36 | <zcorpan> | when i commented on it, i mostly just tried to make the guidelines suck less |
| 14:37 | <zcorpan> | now they do suck less, but it's still possible to make harsh comments |
| 14:37 | <zcorpan> | maybe i should take a second pass someday |
| 14:38 | <hsivonen> | it might be that Dean sees a different conflict that I'm not noticing |
| 14:40 | <Lachy> | I'm not sure what problems Dean sees. I just think his approach to it, regardless of whether his concerns are valid or not, isn't the most constructive |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | I agree. but I can see how someone might get annoyed by a WG proceeding to publish without responding to feedback |
| 14:46 | <zcorpan> | they didn't address all my comments, i think |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | some of my 2004 or thereabouts comments on XHTML2 still stand as well |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | they said they'd fix my issues going forward |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | and i checked back sometime and they had fixed some things |
| 14:47 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: and IIRC, initially it looked like some participant(s?) were willing to ignore all your comments |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | then suddenly it was published without them going back to me asking if the result was ok |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: pointer? |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I'd have to wade through the telecon minutes |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | let's see if Google can do it for me |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | don't put too much effort into it :) |
| 14:49 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/10-xhtml-minutes.html |
| 14:49 | <hsivonen> | "what is obligation - have to respond, but not address or satisfy all comments if cannot be satisfied?" "can we simply thank him?" |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | uh yeah |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | "you're welcome" |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | thanks |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | gotta go |
| 14:55 | <karlcow> | [09:52] <annevk> some of my 2004 or thereabouts comments on XHTML2 still stand as well |
| 14:55 | <karlcow> | annevk: same here, I still have a lot of unanswered comments, but I'm not requesting anything. :) |
| 14:56 | <karlcow> | Maybe I just react too strongly on the way people behave sometimes. :) |
| 14:56 | <hsivonen> | karlcow: do you have outstanding comments on drafts or on docs that exited their draft stage? |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | yeah, if they just published as WD it would've been different |
| 14:58 | <karlcow> | in 8 years, I think most of the comments I have done during last call have been answered. It has happened some of my comments have not been taken into account, but that's life. There's nothing wrong with that. |
| 15:01 | <karlcow> | for XHTML 2.0 specifically There are around 60 comments (from me) in the pipe |
| 15:01 | <hsivonen> | http://twitter.com/fantasai/statuses/1174794173 |
| 15:09 | <Lachy> | I've just accepted the fact that I'm unlikely to ever get a response to the issues I raised against XHTML2 in 2004 and 2005, and now just ignore the work completely. |
| 16:36 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Every word of the spec? Man, get a life! |
| 16:36 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 16:45 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: 256526 words if I got it right |
| 16:45 | <jgraham> | (that seems rather long) |
| 16:45 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Get a life too. |
| 16:46 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: If I had a life I would not have written html5lib and so that would not have been much an easy question to get the wrong answer to |
| 16:46 | <jgraham> | (er, I should say helped to write html5lib) |
| 16:47 | <jgraham> | (since other people did all the important and difficult bits) |
| 16:47 | <annevk> | really? I thought you did the difficult bits |
| 16:47 | <annevk> | at least when we started out :) |
| 16:49 | <jgraham> | annevk: Well Philip` has rewritten all the entity decoding stuff at leasst once |
| 16:50 | <jgraham> | Which is important and difficult :) |
| 16:50 | gsnedders | has a broken implementation of that |
| 16:50 | <gsnedders> | Out of date, too |
| 16:53 | jgraham | hopes that Philip` only has UCS4 builds of python because the patch to get the right number of errors in the tokenizer for non-BMP characters will be slooow |
| 17:13 | <annevk> | did zcorpan comment on public-html regarding multicol and spacer not needing display:block ? |
| 17:17 | <annevk> | surely "table[XXX] > tr > td" is not needed for legacy content |
| 17:45 | <zcorpan> | annevk: i didn't |
| 17:47 | <annevk> | you can thank me then :p |
| 17:48 | <zcorpan> | thank you |
| 17:49 | <zcorpan> | wait, will i have to attend to telecons? |
| 17:49 | <zcorpan> | i'm already having second thoughts about this |
| 17:49 | <annevk> | XML Core WG? |
| 17:49 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 17:50 | <annevk> | just explain them your idea and ask whether it can be done without attending telcons |
| 18:34 | <takkaria> | playing with canvas is actually quite fun |
| 22:00 | <Lachy> | I don't recall Firefox 2's parser creating a fieldset element when it saw a legend element outside of one. I wonder why that would have been introduced in Firefox 3 |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | pretty sure ff2 did it too |
| 22:16 | <Lachy> | oh, you're right. It does do it. It's odd that I wasn't aware of that behaiour |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | Oh, yeah, if you get caught having a spy plant a nuke in Civ2 everyone declares war on you. I forgot that. |
| 22:28 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, what? |
| 22:28 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Nothing |
| 22:30 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, it's just that what you said is even more ambiguous than some of your tweets |
| 22:30 | <Lachy> | oh, that was one of your tweets :-) |
| 22:59 | <takkaria> | conway's game of life with canvas, looking quite cool: |
| 22:59 | <takkaria> | http://takkaria.org/life.html |
| 23:01 | <ehird> | nice, but... |
| 23:01 | <ehird> | life cells don't "fade away" :_0 |
| 23:01 | <ehird> | *:-) |
| 23:02 | <ehird> | takkaria: "Randomise' doesn't work |
| 23:03 | <inimino> | wfm |
| 23:04 | <inimino> | nice demo |
| 23:04 | <ehird> | inimino: what browser? |
| 23:04 | slightlyoff | notes that this could easily be done w/ a <table> or positioned <div>'s |
| 23:04 | <inimino> | firefox trunk |
| 23:05 | <ehird> | slightlyoff: yeah, if you want to wait until the heat death of the universe to watch a glider gun |
| 23:05 | <slightlyoff> | ehird: ?? |
| 23:05 | <ehird> | slightlyoff: they're sloooooooow to update. |
| 23:05 | <slightlyoff> | ah, so this only looks right on FF |
| 23:05 | <slightlyoff> | (webkit nightlies don't do the fading) |
| 23:05 | <ehird> | ahhh |
| 23:06 | ehird | tries FF |
| 23:06 | <ehird> | It's slower now, but actually works. |
| 23:06 | <ehird> | That is a plus. |
| 23:06 | <slightlyoff> | also busted on chrome |
| 23:07 | <slightlyoff> | looks right on opera |
| 23:08 | <ehird> | Setting fade rate = 1 makes it actually correct Life. |
| 23:08 | <slightlyoff> | (but the slider is busted there) |
| 23:08 | <ehird> | It's certainly doing *something* on WebKit, but it's not Life. |
| 23:08 | <slightlyoff> | ehird: heh |
| 23:10 | <inimino> | Life finds a way? |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | i hate that <applet> starts with an "a" |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | it means that all alphabetical lists of embedded content elements start with an obsolete element. |
| 23:46 | <roc> | I've figured out what this normalization debate is about |
| 23:47 | <roc> | people want browsers to handle normalization, instead of other parts of the toolchain, because browsers "have to" obey Web standards and other tools don't |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 23:52 | <othermaciej> | what normalization debate is this? |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | ww-style |