| 00:54 | <alyoshka> | there's a small mistake on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html |
| 00:54 | <alyoshka> | at #punctuation-and-decorations |
| 00:55 | <alyoshka> | towards the end: [dir=ltr] { direction: lrt; unicode-bidi: embed; } |
| 00:55 | <alyoshka> | should be: [dir=ltr] { direction: ltr; unicode-bidi: embed; } |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | hanks |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | thanks even |
| 00:58 | <alyoshka> | ur welcome |
| 00:59 | <alyoshka> | but I can guess how that got in there :P |
| 00:59 | <virtuelv> | whoah, this is impressive: http://gyu.que.jp/jscloth/touch.html |
| 01:03 | <alyoshka> | pretty nice |
| 01:05 | <alyoshka> | just need some 3d acceleration |
| 01:06 | <virtuelv> | alyoshka: try in Opera 10 - it's about a zillion times faster than FF |
| 01:07 | <alyoshka> | I'm using Opera 9.something |
| 01:07 | <alyoshka> | I'll just patiently wait for Opera 10 for now |
| 01:11 | <inimino> | that is impressive |
| 01:13 | <virtuelv> | alyoshka: 10 can be installed alongside 9, fwiw |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | for those with member access, http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/survey2009/results |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | the score for "W3C Work Priorities" is ironic given that 5 years ago the w3c told us that working on html was a bad idea |
| 01:24 | <olliej> | virtuelv: and interestingly broken in webkit |
| 01:24 | olliej | wonders what's going wrong |
| 01:25 | <virtuelv> | hm, I tried with what I thought was epiphany-webkit, and it worked |
| 01:28 | <olliej> | virtuelv: yeah i just verified on another system |
| 01:28 | <olliej> | i think i hve a patch in my tree that has broken canvas in interesting ways |
| 01:28 | <olliej> | ah yeah |
| 01:28 | <olliej> | i have broken little things, like drawing images onto canvas |
| 01:29 | olliej | whistles nonchalantly |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | annevk? |
| 02:06 | <othermaciej> | hmmm, I wonder what XHTML 1.2 is about |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | why does reloading http://junkyard.damowmow.com/365 in safari/webkit give different results each time? |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | it doesn't happen if you load the pages themselves |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | ok clearly webkit gets disqualified from this race. |
| 02:14 | Hixie | looks at the other UAs |
| 02:19 | <othermaciej> | what's that page testing? |
| 02:40 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: whether %xx sequences in name="" attributes are percent-decoded before matching |
| 02:41 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: (apparently required behavior if you follow the relevant RFCs and decode fragment identifiers at all before comparing them to name="" attributes) |
| 02:50 | <Dashiva> | It seems RB drifts more towards pure trolling for every email... |
| 03:53 | <roc> | hmm, that jscloth demo seems pretty fast in FF3.1 |
| 07:42 | <billyjackass> | hsivonen: you still looking for canvas demos? |
| 08:22 | <annevk> | "It doesn't seem CSS-specific; it would apply to any styling mechanism." seems pretty weak; does this mean we can now argue for <img border=0> again; it's not CSS-specific after all... |
| 08:22 | <annevk> | (quote is from the <iframe seamless> thread) |
| 08:22 | <Hixie> | border=0 is a styling mechanism itself |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | the reason we don't want it in html5 is that we are deprecating that styling mechanism |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | seamless isn't a styling mechanism |
| 08:23 | <annevk> | you should have said that then ;) |
| 08:24 | <annevk> | btw, does seamless affect querySelector() ? |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | annevk: said what? |
| 08:26 | <annevk> | that it isn't a styling mechanism |
| 08:26 | <annevk> | I'm more interested in the querySelector() question though |
| 08:26 | <Hixie> | as far as i can tell it doesn't affect querySelector(), why would it? if there's something in the spec that suggests otherwise, please let me know |
| 08:26 | <Hixie> | regarding the styling mechanism thing, why would i say that? isn't it obvious that it's not a styling mechanism? |
| 08:34 | <annevk> | I guess I read your reply the wrong way |
| 08:49 | <annevk> | hsivonen, according to this NFC FAQ a Google "study" has shown that 99.98% of Web content is NFC at the moment... doing Unicode normalization definitely seems like overkill now |
| 08:52 | <Hixie> | wow |
| 08:52 | <Hixie> | 99.98% without that even being a rule or anything |
| 08:52 | <Hixie> | that's astounding |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | annevk: that's content excluding markup. more to the point for the purpose of Selectors, see the % figure for markup |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | I was wondering how id= and class= values are counted, but I suppose you're right |
| 09:21 | <Lachy> | annevk, where is that NFC FAQ? |
| 09:22 | <Lachy> | ah, found it in www-style |
| 09:52 | <yecril71> | Why does MSIE need an ActiveX object to display the specification? |
| 09:53 | <yecril71> | GUIDs are susceptible to brute-force attacks only if they are not random enough. |
| 09:54 | <yecril71> | What number of attempts is needed to guess a GUID of a known MAC and timestamp? |
| 09:55 | <yecril71> | And we can have <htmlarea><fragment-GUID>...</fragment-GUID></htmlarea> for XHTML. |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | the activex ithing is a bug in IE |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | thing |
| 10:06 | <yecril71> | I guess so, but triggered by what? |
| 10:07 | <yecril71> | MSIE is soo slow at it that I cannot investigate it in any real time. |
| 10:12 | Hixie | recommends not using IE to view the spec |
| 10:13 | <Hixie> | there's probably some <object> in the document somewhere |
| 10:14 | yecril71 | recommends not using Microsoft Windows, but it is irrelevant |
| 10:15 | <Hixie> | that too |
| 10:16 | <Philip`> | annevk: (Also see http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-class-values.txt and http://philip.html5.org/data/non-ascii-id-values.txt for NFCness of id/class, if you haven't already) |
| 10:18 | <yecril71> | What is so hard to understand in a proposal to add a reveal event? |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | i don't know, i often don't understand your proposals for some reason |
| 10:19 | <yecril71> | The problem is I do not understand why you do not understand. |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | me neither |
| 10:19 | <yecril71> | Give me any hint what you are missing. |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | what is the problem you are trying to solve? |
| 10:20 | <yecril71> | Garrett had a problem with hashchange and history. |
| 10:20 | <yecril71> | I am trying to solve his problem. |
| 10:20 | <Hixie> | what is his problem? |
| 10:21 | <yecril71> | I have to dig it up from the archive, just a minute. |
| 10:21 | <Hixie> | how do you know if your proposal solves his problem if you don't know the problem? |
| 10:21 | <Hixie> | (this is why including relevant context in e-mails is important.) |
| 10:23 | <yecril71> | Well, I knew it when I was replying. |
| 10:23 | <Hixie> | how do you know that my reply to your reply doesn't solve the problem also? |
| 10:24 | <yecril71> | Because it does not introduce the difference between real events and AJAX events. |
| 10:24 | <yecril71> | And it is just an observation, not a solution. |
| 10:25 | <yecril71> | (Of course, the observation is perfectly valid). |
| 10:27 | <Hixie> | i have no idea what "real events" and "ajax events" are |
| 10:28 | <yecril71> | real events = browser scrolls |
| 10:28 | <yecril71> | AJAX events = content changes |
| 10:29 | <yecril71> | (better names: physical vs logical events) |
| 10:29 | <yecril71> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-September/016184.html |
| 10:31 | <yecril71> | That is, AJAX uses the action of navigating to a nonexisting bookmark to modify content. |
| 10:32 | <yecril71> | It is possible because a hash change event is generated that the script can intercept. |
| 10:33 | <yecril71> | The problem of adapting the display after scrolling is quite different. |
| 10:34 | <Hixie> | i don't understand what you are trying to say |
| 10:34 | <yecril71> | The script can react to a reveal event by reorganizing floating windows that it maintains on the display. |
| 10:35 | <Hixie> | what's this got to do with onhashchange at all? |
| 10:35 | <Hixie> | i'm really very confused |
| 10:35 | annevk | too |
| 10:35 | <Hixie> | mind you, i don't understand garrett's e-mail either |
| 10:35 | <yecril71> | Currently, the hash change event has to serve both purposes. |
| 10:36 | <yecril71> | It is not a good situation because they are quite different. |
| 10:40 | <yecril71> | The practical difference would also be that reveal events would bubble. |
| 10:41 | <Hixie> | could you explain what the second purpose that onhashchange is serving is? |
| 10:41 | <yecril71> | When the reader successfully navigates to a bookmark on the page. |
| 10:42 | <yecril71> | (using an internal link) |
| 10:43 | <yecril71> | In this situation, we only get hash change, and there is no difference from fake navigation. |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | in what scenario would a page/app mix both styles? |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | and even if one did, why would we want to distinguish them? the whole point is to make "ajax navigation" work like regular in-page navigation. |
| 10:52 | <yecril71> | Isn�t AJAX navigation supposed to change the content of the page? |
| 10:53 | <yecril71> | When an application uses both fake navigation and custom layout? |
| 10:53 | <yecril71> | (i.e. custom dynamic layout) |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | it can do whatever the app wants to do |
| 10:55 | <yecril71> | Whereas regular in-page navigation changes only the part displayed. |
| 10:55 | <Hixie> | such usage wouldn't need the event |
| 10:56 | <yecril71> | And updates the layout of secondary windows to match the fragment displayed. |
| 10:57 | <yecril71> | (in response to the hypothetical event) |
| 10:57 | <Hixie> | wouldn't that just be a stylistic issue? and thus belonging in css or xbl or some such layer? |
| 10:58 | <yecril71> | You cannot detect collisions in CSS, can you? |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | that's a question for the css group |
| 10:58 | <jgraham> | Is it specified somewhere what to do with % coded overlong utf8 sequences in URLs? |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | jgraham: presumably the same place as it is specified what to do with binary-coded overlong utf-8 sequences |
| 10:59 | <yecril71> | I guess the CSS group would answer that detecting collisions is not supported. |
| 10:59 | <yecril71> | And I do not think there is any reasonable declarative way for it to be. |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | i didn't say it had to be declarative |
| 11:00 | <yecril71> | CSS is declarative. |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | currently, yes |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | so? |
| 11:00 | <yecril71> | I think it is not going to change. |
| 11:01 | <Hixie> | whether it changes or not is not the concern of the html5 work |
| 11:02 | <yecril71> | Whether the developer can use a script to do things exceeding the capacity of CSS is. |
| 11:02 | <Hixie> | no. using scripts and apis in html for presentational concerns isn't appropriate. |
| 11:03 | <Hixie> | the whole point is that with html we are media-independent |
| 11:03 | <Hixie> | media-specific concerns should be in the css, xbl, or other presentation-specific layers |
| 11:03 | <yecril71> | Busted. |
| 11:06 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Hmm. OK I guess RFC 3629 is pretty clear that they are invalid and so should fail somehow. I'm still not sure quite _how_ they should fail though (options include: raise an error, leave them % encoded, replace them with uFFFD) |
| 11:07 | <Hixie> | jgraham: they should fail in the same way that anything else would fail, e.g. 0xFF, i presume |
| 11:07 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Which is? |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | varies based on the context, but e.g. if you are trying to "resolve a url" in html5, it would cause the resolution algorithm to further fail, and typically stops whatever was being attempted. |
| 11:09 | <jgraham> | OK, that sounds sensible. |
| 11:09 | jgraham | is actually wondering what the behavior of decodeURI(Componet) should be |
| 11:10 | <Hixie> | html5 defines all this for its own apis and features, in theory |
| 11:10 | <Hixie> | can't speak for other specs that html5 doesn't extend, though |
| 11:13 | <jgraham> | afaict ECMAScript specifies that you should decode overlong sequences to their actual value, which seems bad and wrong (and is also not implemented consistently) |
| 11:13 | <Hixie> | what do they say to do for 0xFF? |
| 11:14 | <jgraham> | I think that gets decoded too |
| 11:14 | <Hixie> | to what? |
| 11:14 | <jgraham> | Er, maybe I am wrong, evry implementation throws URIError there |
| 11:15 | <jgraham> | s/evry implementation/every implementation for which I have a shell open |
| 11:15 | gsnedders | needs to draw diagrams of the setup of his physics experiments. ewww. |
| 11:15 | gsnedders | can't draw |
| 11:16 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I am wrong. It throws. |
| 11:24 | <gsnedders> | What do you call one of those things which both act to measure things and as something you can put things on on runners, normally for optics? |
| 11:24 | <gsnedders> | /terrible explanation |
| 11:24 | <jgraham> | A light bench? But I have no idea how that sould "act to measure thing" |
| 11:25 | <Philip`> | Call it "Equipment A" |
| 11:25 | <jgraham> | What's the name of the IE JS engine? |
| 11:25 | gsnedders | tries to find a photo of what jgraham means |
| 11:26 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: JScript |
| 11:26 | <gsnedders> | Actally, no |
| 11:26 | <gsnedders> | *Actually |
| 11:26 | <gsnedders> | Windows Script implements JScript, and Trident uses that |
| 11:28 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I guess you don't mean http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=%22light%20bench%22&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi :) |
| 11:29 | <yecril71> | What is Windows Script? |
| 11:29 | <jgraham> | It seems like I meant Optical BEnch |
| 11:29 | <jgraham> | *Bench |
| 11:29 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I was just looking that up |
| 11:30 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Some Optical Benches have rulers built-in |
| 11:30 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Oh. Maybe I even used one |
| 11:31 | <gsnedders> | Off hand the majority of the ones the uni here has do |
| 11:31 | jgraham | hasn't done any practical physics for 6 1/2 years |
| 11:31 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Yeah, I knew that'd be a bit of a problem :) |
| 11:36 | jgraham | tries mailing es-discuss |
| 11:37 | gsnedders | is having issues with not actually knowing what a lot of equipment is called :P |
| 11:46 | <fearphage> | jgraham: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(Document_Object_Model) |
| 11:49 | <jgraham> | fearphage: That is the layout engine not the ecmascript engine |
| 11:49 | <jgraham> | afaict |
| 11:49 | <gsnedders> | That is correct |
| 11:51 | <fearphage> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_layout_engines_(ECMAScript) |
| 11:51 | <fearphage> | it is indeed comparing the ecmascript engines. the documents are just named poorly |
| 11:52 | <gsnedders> | That does give the ECMAScript Engine names in very small print |
| 11:59 | <Hixie> | i planned to get to 500 pending e-mails by end-of-march |
| 11:59 | <Hixie> | which is possible if you go by the progress chart |
| 11:59 | <Hixie> | but there is a problem |
| 11:59 | <Hixie> | i don't have 500 e-mails' worth of feedback that isn't blocking on something that i don't plan to do until after march |
| 12:00 | <Hixie> | so the lowet i can get is about 1000 |
| 12:00 | <Hixie> | lowest |
| 12:00 | <Hixie> | bummer |
| 12:01 | <Hixie> | (i just hit a new low since records began, btw) |
| 12:07 | <hsivonen> | oh yeah, one interesting question yesterday after the prepared lecture that I forgot to mention: demos about how HTML5 degrages gracefully |
| 12:07 | <hsivonen> | I only had demos of HTML5 stuff working in nightly builds |
| 12:11 | <gsnedders> | It's sad how easy it is to get libxml2's XMLWriter API to output stuff that isn't well-formed |
| 12:11 | <gsnedders> | Just throw in a U+FFFF in most places and stuff breaks |
| 12:21 | gsnedders | wonders how to draw an optical bench as a vector |
| 12:27 | <Philip`> | Hixie: "since records began" is a bit meaningless, since the real value you started with is 0 and the start of records is an arbitrary point :-p |
| 12:27 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: A horizontal line |
| 12:27 | gsnedders | facedesks |
| 12:27 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Abstract away the unnecessary details :-) |
| 12:28 | gsnedders | meant to just take a photo and label that |
| 12:28 | <gsnedders> | But I, uh, forgot to take that photo |
| 12:46 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I think he means since the data recorded here http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html |
| 12:46 | <Lachy> | which looks like it goes back to about October 2007 |
| 12:49 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I think the description is backwards. "The vertical axis represents e-mails for the green line and issue notes in the spec for the teal line". It looks like the teal line is supposed to represent the number of emails and the green line the number of issue notes |
| 12:50 | <Lachy> | in fact, neither line is teal. One is blue, the other is green. |
| 12:53 | <Philip`> | One is aqua and one is lime |
| 12:54 | <Lachy> | "The fat line is a moving average." - I was wondering which line this was referring to, and then I noticed when I look at my screen at an angle, I can just make it out. It's completely invisible to me if I look straight on at my screen. Can you make it a bit darker? |
| 12:57 | <Philip`> | It'd be nice to have a strokeStrokeStyle so the edges of the line could be made more prominent |
| 13:36 | <Philip`> | http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/02/04/recreating-the-button.html - "To get that band of color and fake the gradient, I had to insert one more element in the button code. I chose <b> because it was short, and semantically, it didn’t mean anything." |
| 13:44 | <myakura> | https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=411391 "We will track the issue and hope to address it in a future version of IE." :-( |
| 13:50 | <Philip`> | myakura: Does that have any effect on anything other than the stringified name? |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | "typedef StaticNodeList NodeList;" (and the bits about non-liveness) makes them sound identical except the name |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | and I can't imagine the name being a real interoperability problem |
| 13:53 | <myakura> | Philip`: yeah. i don't think that would cause problems either. just thought i could've told them at the beta stage. |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen> | aargh. Keynote's recording feature and export is borked |
| 13:54 | <hsivonen> | about 1 hour into the slideshow, slide transitions, video playback and sound get out of sync |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2009/02/17-svg-minutes.html |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | "<ChrisL> so if I have an svg file, its in shift-jis say so it needs an xml declaration to state the encoding. then it gets wrapped in html, there is an xml encoding declaration in the middle and it breaks? thats bogus" |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | I wonder why that is bogus. E.g. if you do that with XHTML it breaks too... |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | seems it will take a while longer :/ |
| 14:35 | <gsnedders> | annevk: It breaks? Wouldn't it just be treated as a normal PI? |
| 14:35 | <Lachy> | it's non-trivial to include SVG within an (X)HTML file, and have the SVG markup encoded in a different encoding from the surrounding HTML document, and the idea of including an XML declaration within it is nonsense |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | gsnedders, data:text/xml,<root><?xml version="1.0"?></root> |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | I'm very surprised that Chris Lilley suggests such a thing. I wonder what's up |
| 14:37 | <gsnedders> | annevk: I can't find anything in the XML spec that requires that |
| 14:42 | <gsnedders> | I now have no more swap space. |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, it is a well-formedness requiement because of this: |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | prolog ::= XMLDecl? Misc* (doctypedecl Misc*)? |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | PI ::= '<?' PITarget (S (Char* - (Char* '?>' Char*)))? '?>' |
| 14:43 | <Lachy> | PITarget ::= Name - (('X' | 'x') ('M' | 'm') ('L' | 'l')) |
| 14:43 | <gsnedders> | Oh, I missed PITarget ::= Name - (('X' | 'x') ('M' | 'm') ('L' | 'l')) |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | "The document type declaration MUST appear before the first element in the document." |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | oops |
| 14:47 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Allocate a RAM disk to use as emergency swap space |
| 15:19 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Are you aware that the form element pointer magic doesn't hapen in livedom.validator.nu |
| 15:48 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yes. I don't know a public API for making it happen. |
| 15:52 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Ah, fair point |
| 16:55 | <jgraham> | Does anyone have IE to test http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/12 for me? |
| 17:04 | <zcorpan_> | jgraham: log: true log: true log: true |
| 17:04 | <Lachy> | jgraham, "Internet Explorer has modified this page to help prevent cross-site scripting..." |
| 17:04 | <Lachy> | damn IE sucks so much |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | Oh, interesting. |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | Er, not that IE sucks. That seems pretty clear |
| 17:12 | <jgraham> | What happens with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/13 |
| 17:42 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Do you still have IE? 11:18 < jgraham> What happens with http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/13 |
| 17:43 | <Lachy> | I would have to start up VMWare to get it now that I'm home |
| 17:43 | <Lachy> | and I have to eat dinner quickly and go very soon |
| 17:43 | <jgraham> | Lachy: OK, don't worry |
| 17:43 | <jgraham> | I guess I can bug zcorpan tommorrow or something |
| 17:44 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Would IE6 in Wine be acceptable? |
| 17:45 | <jgraham> | Philip`: That would be fine |
| 17:45 | <Philip`> | jgraham: If so, it says "log: [object]" and then dies with an "Invalid argument" error on line 15 |
| 17:46 | <jgraham> | Oh. Oh well maybe it's no good. I will worry about it some other time |
| 17:49 | <Philip`> | (For /12 it says true/true/true) |
| 18:23 | <taf2> | hi I'm working with blob's using slice to send small parts of a file to a server with XHR requests.. I'd like to compute a checksum of the bytes i send, so i can verify on the server the correct bytes were received... the blob interface is great for chunking a file... |
| 18:24 | <taf2> | i can access the file contents using xhr and compute the md5sum... but am wondering if there wasn't some proposal floating around with an alternative |
| 20:20 | <Hixie> | Philip`: since the records began isn't completely meaningless, because i'm pretty sure the records affected my behaviour. |
| 20:21 | <Hixie> | Lachy: fixed colours. If you can't see the fat line, your system may have incorrectly configured gamma. |
| 20:40 | <gsnedders> | Wow. Creating circuit schematics in SVG really is hell. |
| 20:41 | <takkaria> | yeah |
| 20:41 | <takkaria> | not worth it, really |
| 20:41 | <gsnedders> | All the circuit that I just did that made me conclude that had in it was a couple of wires, a LDR, and a Ohmmeter |
| 20:41 | <gsnedders> | *an |
| 20:45 | Philip` | remembers doing circuit diagrams by hand in Design & Technology lessons where the main requirement was to use a ruler to draw straight lines, and then later in Electronics lessons where scribbling in battered old notebooks was considered perfectly normal |
| 20:46 | <gsnedders> | Doing them by hand, even carefully with a ruler, is easier than using SVG. |
| 20:47 | <roc_> | did you write the SVG by hand or use an editor? |
| 20:47 | <gsnedders> | Use an editor. It would probably have been easier by hand. |
| 21:00 | virtuelv | recalls using some horrible, proprietary software |
| 21:00 | <roc_> | ok then I guess the editor sucks! |
| 21:01 | <virtuelv> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSPICE |
| 21:02 | <virtuelv> | or was it orcad |
| 21:02 | <virtuelv> | I can't recall, I last did anything with circuits when gsnedders was still wearing diapers |
| 21:02 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 21:03 | <virtuelv> | gsnedders: it's not your fault I'm an old fart |
| 21:03 | <gsnedders> | virtuelv: It's not my fault I'm a young fart |
| 21:45 | <Lachy> | Hixie, my macbook pro has whatever the default gamma settings are. I never touched them |
| 21:50 | gsnedders | guesses he's probably meant to write this in the impersonal passive |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | Lachy: works fine on my own macbook pro :-) |
| 22:31 | <gsnedders> | "until the reading on the ohmmeter was at a minimum" — that sounds slightly clumsy, as if there needs to be another word at the end… suggestions? |
| 22:32 | <jcranmer> | "was"? |
| 22:32 | <gsnedders> | Well, it isn't anymore, is it? :P |
| 22:33 | gsnedders | points to the draw where the ohmmeter is |
| 22:33 | <jcranmer> | I suppose I need context |
| 22:33 | <jcranmer> | it sounded to me like instructions |
| 22:33 | <gsnedders> | (Actually, I'm really just pointing at the building of my school where physics is, but I'll claim the above) |
| 22:33 | <jcranmer> | are you telling a story, or ... ? |
| 22:34 | <gsnedders> | "When taking a reading, all the LEDs on the array apart from the one whose focal length was being measured were covered with black insulating tape, and then the lens was moved along the optical bench until the reading on the ohmmeter was at a minimum." |
| 22:35 | jcranmer | shakes his fist at `lens' being a singular noun |
| 22:35 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 22:36 | <jcranmer> | I see what you mean... it's awkward |
| 22:36 | <jcranmer> | correct, but awkward |
| 22:36 | gsnedders | really should just care less about his English and just care about the physics part of this :P |
| 22:37 | <jcranmer> | "until the observed resistance was minimized" ? |
| 22:37 | <Philip`> | Local minimum or global minimum? |
| 22:38 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: Then I risk getting into a -ise v. -ize debate |
| 22:38 | <jcranmer> | minimised, then |
| 22:38 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: local |
| 22:38 | <jcranmer> | you're in Britain |
| 22:38 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: No, it should be -ize |
| 22:38 | <jcranmer> | whatever you prefer |
| 22:38 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Actually, it could be either. |
| 22:39 | jcranmer | sticks with his American orthography |
| 22:39 | <Philip`> | You could say "...until the reading on the ohmmeter stopped decreasing" |
| 22:39 | <gsnedders> | :P |
| 22:39 | <gsnedders> | That sounds clumsy too, though. |
| 22:39 | <jcranmer> | it sounds too informal |
| 22:40 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: Words from Greek should end in -ize, those from French -ise |
| 22:40 | <Philip`> | It's more precise than "at a minimum", because it's describing the process imperatively rather than declaratively |
| 22:40 | <Philip`> | though it's only accurate if that's actually how you determined the minimum |
| 22:41 | <jcranmer> | I would put in "was observed to stop decreasing" myself |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | "[T]he suffix..., whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Gr[eek] -ιζειν, L[atin] -izāre; and, as the pronunciation is also with z, there is no reason why in English the special French spelling in -iser should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic." |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | jcranmer: That sounds more formal |
| 22:42 | <jcranmer> | formal is better, IMHO |
| 22:42 | <gsnedders> | Yeah |
| 22:42 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Why would you expect there to be a reason for English to be as it is? |
| 22:42 | <gsnedders> | I agree Philip`'s sounded too informal |
| 22:42 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Because I'm a bloody scientist? :P |
| 22:43 | Philip` | thinks readability is a more important consideration than formality |
| 22:43 | <Philip`> | (though it may be that the more formal phrasing is more readable too) |
| 22:45 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: If you flip a coin and it comes up heads, do you expect there to be a reason for it to specifically be heads? These things just happen because *something* has to happen, and there's no particular reason why, but you have to accept what happened and live with it :-) |
| 23:52 | gsnedders | must relax |