| 00:14 | <ehird> | Am I to assume you guys have seen the source of http://www.apple.com/safari/? |
| 00:14 | <ehird> | (Hint: it's html5. It uses header, nav, section, all those things, too, not just the doctype.) |
| 00:16 | <Philip`> | It's not even valid, though :-( |
| 00:17 | <ehird> | Philip`: The header looks controled by the site-wide CMS. |
| 00:17 | <roc> | anyone here got IE8 handy to try a testcase for me? |
| 00:17 | <ehird> | Even so, wow. Oh, wait, I forgot, we have to wait until 2012. Nevermind, HTML5 isn't ready yet. |
| 00:19 | <Philip`> | roc: I have a possibly slightly old ("RC1" apparently) copy of IE8 |
| 00:19 | <roc> | how about for me *and* dhyatt? |
| 00:19 | <roc> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/18 |
| 00:19 | <roc> | hmm, that may need to be massaged to trigger IE8 standards mode |
| 00:19 | <roc> | give it a standards-mode doctype |
| 00:20 | <roc> | then, when you scroll down, at the bottom there should be a yellow background, with "hello world" in black drawing over it, and with "This text overlaps" on top of that. |
| 00:21 | <roc> | the question is ... is the scrollbar under or over the yellow background? |
| 00:21 | <roc> | thx |
| 00:21 | <Philip`> | roc: The scrollbar is hidden behind the yellow background |
| 00:22 | <roc> | ok |
| 00:22 | <roc> | the "hello world" is visible over the yellow background? |
| 00:22 | <Philip`> | Yes |
| 00:22 | <Philip`> | overlapping the word "This" |
| 00:22 | <roc> | great thanks |
| 00:23 | jwalden | should install IE8 on his Windows box |
| 00:23 | <jwalden> | after I finish debugging this patch :-) |
| 00:23 | <Philip`> | Compatibility View has the scrollbar and the "Hello world" text all behind the yellow background |
| 00:23 | <Philip`> | (as does quirks mode) |
| 00:31 | <roc> | yeah thanks |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | a <section> in a <header>? sheesh |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | html5 being abused already :-( |
| 02:09 | <Hixie> | oh lord, an <h3> in a <footer>, too |
| 02:17 | <annevk> | Hixie, who is wm? |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | wellington |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | he pointed out the problem in #content on irc.mozilla.org |
| 02:17 | <annevk> | ta |
| 02:19 | <jcranmer> | you can lead a web developer to semantic paradise, but you can't make him write it :-) |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | i love that when i edit the websocket part of the spec, the ID gets automatically updated and submitted |
| 02:43 | <annevk> | yum, Google Search Appliance reminds me of cheese |
| 03:35 | <takkaria> | crikey, this accessibility hoo-haa over canvas is saddening |
| 03:36 | <takkaria> | it seems to follow from the idea that all content should be equivalent across viewing media |
| 03:37 | <takkaria> | s/viewing//; I guess |
| 03:38 | <takkaria> | but the kinds of things that canvas is there for seem to be basically stuff that can't be equivalent across media |
| 03:44 | <roc> | I wonder why accessibility people haven't shut down the entire games industry |
| 04:09 | <annevk> | http://280atlas.com/ is pretty cool |
| 04:11 | <heycam> | annevk, you have "© 2003-2008" at the bottom of annevankesteren.nl. i guess it should be 2009? |
| 04:11 | <heycam> | i couldn't play the video properly on 280atlas.com, so i have no idea what the site does :/ |
| 04:12 | <annevk> | it's a WYSIWYG editor for applications |
| 04:12 | <annevk> | Web applications |
| 04:13 | <heycam> | so like the cocoa Interface Builder plus a way to add script or something? |
| 04:13 | <karlcow> | annevk: indeed super impressive. The world of visual basic finally on the Web, with all the bad/good things of it ;) |
| 04:13 | <karlcow> | heycam: yes |
| 04:13 | <heycam> | sounds nifty |
| 04:16 | <heycam> | annevk, in case you missed it just before your irc closed: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090225#l-184 |
| 04:16 | <annevk> | ah |
| 04:21 | <annevk> | ta, fixed |
| 04:37 | <annevk> | heycam, btw, for SVG you could just say that for all SVG elements transform-origin has a different default value, no? |
| 04:38 | <annevk> | heycam, just like HTML elements have some default style |
| 04:38 | <heycam> | annevk, yes that could be said |
| 04:38 | <heycam> | might be confusing though, having some elements (HTML ones) using the centre as the origin, while SVG elements use the viewport origin |
| 04:39 | <annevk> | with "viewport origin" you mean the x,y of the outermost SVG <svg> element? |
| 04:39 | <heycam> | i think we will likely make transform a property in SVG, so that we can reuse/unify CSS transforms |
| 04:39 | <heycam> | annevk, not the outermost, but the closest ancestor |
| 04:39 | <annevk> | k |
| 04:40 | <annevk> | ideally transforms are the same in CSS/SVG/<canvas> |
| 04:40 | <heycam> | yep |
| 04:40 | <annevk> | with CSS having transforms that affect layout in addition, I suppose |
| 04:41 | <heycam> | svg definitely needs to have viewport-origin or some way of easily rotating objects about their centre points |
| 07:44 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/Stormchild/statuses/1248400981 |
| 08:28 | <Hixie> | shockingly, despite a browser having come out today, my site has stayed up |
| 09:30 | <Lachy> | Hixie, can you provide a way to turn off that new floating status box in the spec? I'm finding it really irritating |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | oh? |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | why is it irritating? |
| 09:31 | <Lachy> | because it doesn't scroll along with everything else and is distracting |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | is there some way i can make it less distracting while still making the information available? |
| 09:33 | <Lachy> | well, one thing you could do is either make them narrower, or increase the left margin on the green element summary boxes, so they don't overlap the edge of them. |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | maybe only show it after scrolling has finished? |
| 09:35 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: "Error: Required attributes missing on element script." for <script type="text/javascript" charset="utf-8"> ... </script> |
| 09:35 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: src is missing |
| 09:36 | <Lachy> | Hixie, maybe make them semi-transparent, and then opaque when they're hovered |
| 09:36 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: it would be more helpful if it said that charset is not allowed if there's no src |
| 09:36 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | oh god, my cat turned on voiceover |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | how the heck do you turn it off |
| 09:37 | <Lachy> | Hixie, in System Preferencs is the only way I know of |
| 09:37 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: ask the cat |
| 09:37 | <Lachy> | how did your cat turn it on? |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | sat on the keyboard |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | command-f5 apparently |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | man what a horrifying experience when you're not expecting it |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | ok what were y'all talking about |
| 09:38 | Hixie | reads up |
| 09:40 | <Hixie> | annevk: it waits 100ms before showing already |
| 09:40 | <Hixie> | Lachy: green element summary boxes? |
| 09:41 | <Hixie> | i suppose i could hide it while scrolling is happening |
| 09:41 | <Hixie> | and fade it back in |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | transitions ftw |
| 09:42 | <Lachy> | Hixie, these big green boxes that summarise the elements http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-html-element |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | ooh, hmm |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | ok let me poke around the css a bit |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | this'll give me an opportunity to play with the new transition css stuff, too |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | just gonna listen to a bit more developer's commentary in hl2ep2 first |
| 09:45 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: "I'm not familiar with the Shims browser and didn't find anything worthwhile about it." - http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=4050#4821 |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | -_- |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | any idea what else to call it? |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | Plugins maybe? |
| 09:45 | <zcorpan> | what do you mean with it? |
| 09:45 | <Lachy> | Hixie, .status { opacity: .4; -o-transition: 1s; -webkit-transition: 1s; } .status:hover { opacity: 1; } |
| 09:46 | <Hixie> | it's supposed to be for anything that's not a browser that might help, JS libraries, Gears-like plugins, IE add-ons, whatever |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: how about "JS libraries, plugins, etc" |
| 09:47 | <Lachy> | Hixie, where is the new Shims icon? I can't see it in any of the status boxes |
| 09:47 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: too long |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | Shims? wtf |
| 09:47 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: well |
| 09:47 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: i guess not |
| 09:47 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: i can try |
| 09:47 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | wow. I wrote an interesting bug: the characters in foster-parented text are rotated right by one |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | so "bar" becomes "rba" |
| 10:52 | <nessy> | don't apply that to real people |
| 10:56 | <karlcow> | hsivonen: already done by marketing people… :) fcuk |
| 11:50 | <hsivonen> | was there a reason why the spec chose to do the taint management thing like Gecko does instead of doing the per flush tainting like WebKit does? |
| 11:50 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I just got an undeliverable mail error when trying to reply to a thread on whatwg. Has something gone wrong with the mailing list? |
| 11:51 | <Hixie> | not to my knowledge, what does the message say exactly? |
| 11:51 | <Lachy> | I'll forward you a copy |
| 11:52 | <Lachy> | sent. |
| 12:15 | <Hixie> | Lachy: looks like the mail server in question ran out of disk space, i expect dreamhost will fix it in due course |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 12:22 | <Hixie> | i filed a support ticket just in case |
| 12:22 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 12:23 | <Hixie> | btw try the spec now |
| 12:23 | <Hixie> | is it still as distracting? |
| 12:25 | <Lachy> | that's much better. I like how the floating status box doesn't overlap any of the non-floating status boxes any more |
| 12:25 | <Lachy> | except, I still don't like how they're overlapping the edge of the green element description boxes. |
| 12:27 | <Hixie> | yeah the green thing is next |
| 12:27 | <yecril71> | events in 1923 are already covered, and table of Roman emperors is Wikipedia-specific. |
| 12:28 | <Lachy> | eek, resizing my browser now with the spec open makes it hang for about 10 seconds |
| 12:28 | <Lachy> | not sure if that's anything to do with the scripts or just the size of it |
| 12:29 | yecril71 | has to wait about 90 sec until he can click out to multipage |
| 12:33 | <Hixie> | Lachy: calculations for resizing are deferred until 500ms after you stop resizing, so it shouldn't be the script |
| 12:33 | <Hixie> | yecril71: use http://whatwg.org/html5 as the direct link |
| 12:34 | <yecril71> | Tell it to W3C. |
| 12:34 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 12:34 | <Hixie> | what's the w3c got to do with it |
| 12:34 | <yecril71> | The spec stored at W3C, in its status section, refers to the single page document. |
| 12:35 | <Hixie> | so don't read the w3c one :-) it's always going to be slightly more out of date anyway |
| 12:35 | <yecril71> | I don�t. |
| 12:36 | <yecril71> | Just the click path for W3C users goes through single-page. |
| 12:36 | <Lachy> | so? |
| 12:36 | <Hixie> | i thought you said YOU had to wait 90 seconds |
| 12:36 | <yecril71> | So, |
| 12:37 | <yecril71> | Me and the handicapped 60% of the world. |
| 12:37 | <Lachy> | wtf? |
| 12:37 | <yecril71> | The people using MSIE. |
| 12:37 | <rubys> | lol |
| 12:37 | <Lachy> | yecril71, just load the single or multipage version directly. Don't even try using IE to read teh sepc |
| 12:37 | <Lachy> | *the spec |
| 12:38 | <Hixie> | yecril71: i thought you said you didn't read the w3c version. |
| 12:38 | <yecril71> | I do not. |
| 12:38 | <Hixie> | so why do you have to wait 90 seconds? |
| 12:38 | <yecril71> | For the WHATWG version to become clickable. |
| 12:39 | <Lachy> | Hixie, the floating status box doesn't seem to be working in Opera |
| 12:39 | <Hixie> | yecril71: why do you go through the single page version? |
| 12:39 | <yecril71> | Because this is what the W3C version advises to use. |
| 12:40 | <yecril71> | I am trying to show you the experience of a first-time surfer. |
| 12:40 | <Hixie> | ok, i am hereby giving you better advice: use http://whatwg.org/html5 |
| 12:40 | <Lachy> | wtf? Why does the W3C version matter if you're not looking at it? |
| 12:40 | <yecril71> | Give that advice to W3C. |
| 12:40 | <yecril71> | The W3C version matters because it can be used to go to WHATWG. |
| 12:41 | <yecril71> | And the W3C version matters because it is stored in the central repository |
| 12:41 | <yecril71> | for Web technology documents. |
| 12:41 | <Hixie> | i should stick some google analytics into the spec and see what browsers people really use on the spec |
| 12:41 | <Hixie> | yecril71: ok, i've updated the link |
| 12:41 | <yecril71> | Thx |
| 12:45 | <hsivonen> | whoa! IE8 behavior in cases where I expected foster parenting surprises me |
| 12:45 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I can't figure out why the status box isn't showing in Opera. there doesn't seem to be any script errors and the CSS looks fine |
| 12:45 | <jgraham> | Hixie: The load time of the spec is already abysmal without adding in google-cruft |
| 12:45 | <hsivonen> | apparently the IE8 mode does not foster parent |
| 12:45 | <hsivonen> | neither in the DOM nor in the CSS box tree |
| 12:46 | <Hixie> | it creates fake captions |
| 12:46 | <Hixie> | whose tagname is '' |
| 12:46 | <Hixie> | iirc |
| 12:46 | <Lachy> | Hixie, doesn't the Dreamhost panel give you sufficient statistics to get a rough idea, without using google analyitics? |
| 12:46 | <Hixie> | jgraham: yeah that's the main reason i haven't added anything |
| 12:46 | <Hixie> | Lachy: that doesn't give me the numbers of the w3c copy |
| 12:47 | <hsivonen> | and Opera is visually compatible with the IE 5.5 mode |
| 12:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: this whole tainting business seems less and less useful |
| 12:47 | <yecril71> | The copy at W3C is readable. |
| 12:47 | <yecril71> | The problem with it is that it is not the latest, of course. |
| 12:48 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: oh? |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'll send email |
| 12:48 | <Hixie> | k |
| 12:51 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i don't know either. it works in firefox and safari, no error messages in opera. |
| 12:51 | <Hixie> | the editing also seems to not work |
| 12:52 | <Hixie> | in fact clicking anywhere doesn't seem to work |
| 12:52 | <Hixie> | wtf |
| 13:13 | <Hixie> | Lachy: well the boxes no longer overlap the element green boxes anymore... technically... |
| 13:14 | <Hixie> | i'm actually mildly impressed with myself for the currently look |
| 13:14 | <Hixie> | not because it looks particularly cool |
| 13:14 | <Hixie> | but because it's non-trivial to get that effect using css :-) |
| 13:14 | <Hixie> | or rather, non-obvious |
| 13:18 | <Hixie> | holy crap, it even worked as is in opera and firefox without my having to do anything |
| 13:18 | <Hixie> | go standards! |
| 13:18 | <Hixie> | (i developed it in webkit) |
| 13:20 | <jgraham> | Hixie: The status blox blinking in and out of slight is really quite annoying. |
| 13:20 | <jgraham> | *box |
| 13:20 | <rubys> | slight? <grin> |
| 13:21 | <jgraham> | :p |
| 13:23 | <Hixie> | aw man, y'all are hard to please |
| 13:23 | <Hixie> | lachy said it was annoying when it stayed there |
| 13:24 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Would it fade in and out if I found a CSS transitions capable browser? |
| 13:24 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 13:24 | <Hixie> | i assume you have firefox |
| 13:24 | <Hixie> | in opera it doesn't appear at all for some reason |
| 13:24 | <jgraham> | Oh well I guess I could do that then |
| 13:24 | <Lachy> | Hixie, have you seen how it looks in Firefox now? It looks broken |
| 13:25 | <Hixie> | Lachy: does it look different than other browsers? |
| 13:25 | <rubys> | Just so I understand what we are talking about, we are talking about the box on the left in places such as here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/dom.html#sectioning-content |
| 13:25 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i didn't say it was pretty... |
| 13:25 | <Hixie> | rubys: yeah, though it now stays on the left wherever you are |
| 13:25 | <Lachy> | I think WebKit showed the effect you were trying to achieve, with the heading sticking out to the left a little |
| 13:26 | Hixie | looks at firefox again |
| 13:26 | <Hixie> | my gecko trunk build shows it exactly almost pixel for pixel like my webkit trunk build |
| 13:26 | <Hixie> | are you using some old version of firefox? |
| 13:26 | <Lachy> | Firefox 3 is broken |
| 13:26 | <Hixie> | oh well yes, firefox 3 is ancient |
| 13:26 | <Hixie> | doesn't have abs pos generated content |
| 13:27 | <Hixie> | i suppose you're going to say i should support the latest official release huh |
| 13:27 | <Lachy> | well, I don't like using an unstable browser for general use |
| 13:27 | <Hixie> | ff3 is far less stable than ff trunk imho :-) |
| 13:27 | <Lachy> | although, it's probably stable enough to start using minefield now |
| 13:27 | <rubys> | I found that confusing for other reasons. The implementation status is vacant, though if I view the screen from a rather oblique angle I can see that there are supposed to be icons there. The links (e.g. zcorpan) say not implemented, and I have no idea what the triangle at the bottom means. |
| 13:28 | <rubys> | Of course, it could be that the problem is that I'm using FF 3.0.6. |
| 13:28 | <Hixie> | rubys: the triangle at the bottom means your browser doesn't support positioned generated content (probably, like lachy, an old firefox build like ff3) |
| 13:28 | <Hixie> | rubys: the icons being not visible means the browsers don't implement the feature |
| 13:29 | <Hixie> | rubys: and the links with the people's names give the names of the last person to edit the data, and the link is supposed to show the history, but i haven't implemented that yet |
| 13:29 | <Hixie> | i guess i can make them not links for now |
| 13:29 | <Lachy> | In Opera, it looks a little better than FF3, but not quite as good as WebKit |
| 13:29 | <rubys> | to me, an icon with a red x over it would be clearer... I don't know how to interpret a vacant area |
| 13:29 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: to amend my email: as far as I can tell, the only case where taint helps is foo<!-- --> <!-- -->bar which isn't exactly the most important concern |
| 13:30 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: taint was intended to help <table> <tr> <td> vs <table>x y<tr>x y<td> |
| 13:30 | <rubys> | Any thoughts on what more could be done to prevent h3's in footers? |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the WebKit solution addresses that case |
| 13:30 | <Lachy> | Hixie, why don't you lost the fancy border and return to having a straight edge that was there before? |
| 13:31 | <Hixie> | Lachy: because then it would overlap the box like you didn't like |
| 13:31 | <Hixie> | rubys: not sure how to render a red cross using css |
| 13:31 | <Lachy> | can't you just indent the whole thing? |
| 13:31 | <Lachy> | why does the heading need to be indented less than the rest? |
| 13:31 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i can't indent the <h4> because i don't have :matches() in selectors |
| 13:32 | <Hixie> | Lachy: the class="element" element comes after the heading |
| 13:32 | <Lachy> | oh, ok. either I have to put up with overlapping or a wonky edge?! |
| 13:35 | <Lachy> | Hixie, the other alternative is to make the status boxes slightly narrower instead |
| 13:36 | <Lachy> | although, perhaps that depends on the width of the icons inside them |
| 13:36 | <Lachy> | hmm. I will think about it and find a solution later |
| 13:37 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: at the cost of preventing incremental text, yeah. that was an invariant i was trying not to violate. but i guess maybe we should violate it. |
| 13:38 | <jgraham> | rubys: Of course we can't break apple.com so we have probably already lost that battle... |
| 13:39 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i can't make them narrower now that we have five icons without making them disproportionally tall |
| 13:39 | <Hixie> | Lachy: and making the margin wider, the other option, is something i'd rather avoid |
| 13:39 | <Hixie> | holy crap, even IE8 renders the wonky borders correctly |
| 13:39 | <Hixie> | go standards indeed |
| 13:40 | <Hixie> | IE8 actually handles the spec pretty well compared to earlier versions |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I think it's ok to violate the incremental text assumption when the element on the stack is table, thead, tbody, tfoot or tr |
| 13:42 | <hsivonen> | at least for now, I'm not doing incremental text at all |
| 13:42 | <Hixie> | hm i guess i could buy that |
| 13:42 | <Hixie> | Lachy: these wonky borders are kinda growing on me |
| 13:43 | <Lachy> | loading the spec in IE8 is an extremely painful process |
| 13:43 | <Hixie> | really? wasn't that bad for me |
| 13:43 | <Lachy> | it's so slow and unresponsive |
| 13:43 | <Hixie> | and i'm in a low-memory VM |
| 13:43 | <Lachy> | I always find IE slow and unresponsive on every machine I use it on, so it's not really a surprise |
| 13:51 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Your public-html mail confuses Gmail's content-sensitive ads |
| 13:52 | <Philip`> | "World's First Surrogacy Agency Helping make babies since 1979" |
| 13:52 | <rubys> | jgraham: do we have anybody here who works at apple? :-) I don't presume that apple.com is unchanging... |
| 13:52 | <Philip`> | "Shampooing a Toddler can be Tough. Lil'Rinser The Hair Washing Helper" |
| 13:53 | <rubys> | Philip`: another success story for NLP! <ducks> |
| 13:54 | <Lachy> | Philip`, I'm surprised you don't have an ad blocker enabled so you don't see google's ads. |
| 13:55 | Lachy | can't handle using the web without an ad blocker these days. The number of ads everywhere is just too much |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: Natural Language Processing FTW |
| 13:56 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I use Opera's content blocker thing, and I think I do block Google ads (because there was an incredibly irritating giant orange one on the MySQL site), but it doesn't work on Gmail |
| 13:56 | <Lachy> | really? Why not? |
| 13:57 | <Philip`> | Probably because they're not served the same way as normal Google ads |
| 13:57 | rubys | finds ThunderBird to be pleasantly ad-free |
| 13:57 | Philip` | uses Thunderbird too, but prefers Gmail's web interface for mailing lists |
| 13:58 | <Lachy> | hmm, interesting. Opera's content blocker isn't blocking it for me either, but the AdBlock Firefox plugin does. I must have some differences between my filter lists |
| 13:59 | Philip` | doesn't mind since the ones on Gmail are unintrusive |
| 13:59 | <rubys> | apparently not :-P |
| 14:00 | <Philip`> | Well, they're not completely invisible, and sometimes I look over in that direction to see how amusingly wrong it is :-) |
| 14:00 | <Philip`> | but they don't distract me when I'm trying to read mail |
| 14:01 | <rubys> | I also use gmail for other mailing lists (ASF), but for some reason not this one (yet). |
| 14:02 | <rubys> | I'm just pleased that I was finally able to stop using my employer provided email address on the W3C list. |
| 14:02 | Philip` | also blocks Flash ads as a side-effect of not having worked out how to make the Flash plugin work in Opera |
| 14:03 | hsivonen | hopes the inevitable canvas and SVG ads will be less annoying thanks to native integration with the browser event loop |
| 14:04 | <Philip`> | Don't forget <video> |
| 14:04 | <Hixie> | anyone know a css hack that targets firefox 3 but not ff trunk? |
| 14:04 | <Philip`> | I don't see why being integrated with the browser will make them less annoying - the content will be the same, and it's easy to make browsers go horribly slow when making them render animated stuff |
| 14:05 | <Hixie> | eh screw it, ff3.next will be out soon enough |
| 14:05 | <Philip`> | Hixie: <script>if(navigator.userAgent=='...')document.write('<style>...')</script> |
| 14:05 | <Hixie> | sadly this would have to be from within the css file |
| 14:05 | <Hixie> | i guess if people complain i'll add some script or something |
| 14:06 | <Hixie> | i'm going to bed now... |
| 14:06 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 14:06 | <hsivonen> | nn |
| 14:06 | Philip` | complains |
| 14:10 | <Philip`> | (...just out of principle, not any personal need) |
| 14:29 | <yecril71> | Big red cross: <SPAN STYLE="FONT-SIZE: X-LARGE; COLOR: RED" >+</SPAN > |
| 14:38 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: you have a test case that shows that ie8 doesn't do the foster-parent-emulation? |
| 14:43 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: IIRC, <table>a<td>b</td>c</table> |
| 14:43 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: with <!doctype html> |
| 14:43 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i get a and c above b in live dom viewer |
| 14:44 | hsivonen | reopens the VM |
| 14:44 | <zcorpan> | with "no name" elements as parents of a and c |
| 14:44 | <zcorpan> | (that are styled as captions) |
| 14:45 | <hsivonen> | saved as #19 |
| 14:47 | zcorpan | sees "b" and "d" captioned |
| 14:47 | <zcorpan> | i.e. rendering order is a b d c e |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: regarding <style>, see my message in http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-March/014148.html |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/ie8-no-foster-parent.png |
| 14:49 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: weird |
| 14:49 | Philip` | wonders if zcorpan has compatibility mode switched on |
| 14:50 | <zcorpan> | nope |
| 14:50 | <Philip`> | Oh, okay then |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: this is the build that shipped with the public beta of Windows 7 |
| 14:50 | <zcorpan> | i have the rc1 build |
| 14:52 | <zcorpan> | i think the build that shipped with windows 7 was the partner preview build |
| 14:54 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i don't mind changing <table><style> parsing though |
| 15:14 | <yecril71> | Philip`, do you have IE8 @hand? |
| 15:18 | <Philip`> | yecril71: I don't |
| 15:55 | gsnedders | headdesks at karlcow |
| 16:22 | Philip` | notes in regards to Lachy_'s <![dD][oO][cC][tT][yY][pP][eE]\s+[hH][tT][mM][lL]\s*> complaint that the HTML5 spec itself said (until quite recently) "1) A U+003C LESS-THAN SIGN (<) character. 2) A U+0021 EXCLAMATION MARK (!) character. 3) A U+0044 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D or U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D character. ..." |
| 16:24 | <Philip`> | so at least the regexp is simpler than what the spec said (at least for people who understand regexps), which is admittedly a low bar but it's better than nothing :-) |
| 16:35 | <Lachy_> | Philip`, the spec doesn't purport to be optimised for web developers, unlike the markup spec |
| 16:37 | <Philip`> | Lachy_: It does purport to be intended for them (among others) |
| 16:37 | <Philip`> | ("This specification is intended for authors of documents and scripts that use the features defined in this specificaton ...") |
| 16:38 | Philip` | wonders if a specificaton is kind of like a megaton |
| 16:39 | Dashiva | wonders if there exist specifications aren't intended for users of the specification |
| 16:39 | <Philip`> | Hixie: I don't care enough to send email, so if you don't miss this in the log then s/specificaton/specification/ in #audience |
| 16:41 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: How about e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/ which looks like it's intended for maybe tool authors and not for normal people? |
| 16:42 | <Philip`> | (and the user-friendly stuff is split into a separate document which is not part of the specification) |
| 16:42 | <syp> | Hixie: I'm getting the unresponsive dialog script with Firefox 3.1/3.2 on the html5 spec. in status.js, findStatusByPosition the (high-low > 0) condition is never false. |
| 16:48 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: Different use of 'uses' then |
| 16:50 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: I assume you meant to user the term 'users'? |
| 16:52 | <Dashiva> | I had already rephrased the question in my head, but the sentence never reached my fingers |
| 16:55 | <Philip`> | You should type with your nose instead |
| 16:55 | <Philip`> | Much less distance for the nerve signals to travel |
| 16:55 | <Philip`> | and correspondingly less chance of them getting lost in transit |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | I am slightly freaked out by the fact that I made a post to public-html on @summary and no one has replied within 24 hours. |
| 16:59 | <jgraham> | I am assuming that the reason was not that my arguments had a undeniable brilliance and so could not be refuted |
| 16:59 | <virtuelv> | html turns adult this year |
| 16:59 | <virtuelv> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-talk/1991SepOct/0003.html |
| 17:00 | <Philip`> | You can't really expect every post to get a reply - it's like a pyramid scheme, and someone has to get stuck at the leaf nodes |
| 17:00 | <jgraham> | Philip`: You can reply to multiple posts at the same time so preventing the exponential growth |
| 17:00 | <jcranmer> | Philip`: I take it you've never seen newsgroup threads? |
| 17:00 | <Philip`> | (I know pyramids don't have leaves but I don't know the term for the blocks you put at the very bottom of a pyramid :-( ) |
| 17:01 | <jcranmer> | cornerstones? |
| 17:01 | <jcranmer> | one sci.math thread is up past 1.5K messages |
| 17:01 | <Philip`> | I would tend to assume that cornerstones are at corners |
| 17:02 | <Philip`> | and pyramids only have four corners at the bottom |
| 17:02 | <Philip`> | which is hardly exponential |
| 17:02 | <jcranmer> | it's a fractal pyramid :-) |
| 17:02 | Philip` | tries to visualise it |
| 17:02 | Philip` | fails |
| 17:03 | <jcranmer> | Sierpinski (sp?) Pyramid! |
| 17:03 | <gsnedders> | virtuelv: TimBL said at TPAC that it was 18 and a half then |
| 17:03 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/demos/apng/sierpinski.png |
| 17:03 | <Philip`> | Someone needs to make a 3D version of APNG |
| 17:04 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: A3DPNG? |
| 17:04 | zcorpan_ | is glad that the xml core wg seem to be opposed to normalization checking in xml |
| 17:04 | <virtuelv> | gsnedders: I'm counting public mention, not inception |
| 17:04 | <gsnedders> | virtuelv: hehe |
| 17:05 | <gsnedders> | I did feel rather inappropriate sitting beside timbl when he mentioned that in the HTML WG/TAG joint meeting at TPAC |
| 17:05 | <jcranmer> | bah, display doesn't like APNG |
| 17:06 | jgraham | suggests that HTML might follow wizarding rules and come of age at 17 rather than muggle's rules of 18 |
| 17:06 | gsnedders | suggests that HTML might follow Scottish law and come of age at 16 |
| 17:07 | <Philip`> | jcranmer: There's this neat image display tool called Firefox that might work better |
| 17:07 | gsnedders | tries to come up with a reason for it to be Scottish |
| 17:07 | <jcranmer> | Philip`: not for 24K×12K images! |
| 17:40 | <gsnedders> | Is there any easy way to get a graphic RDF graph? |
| 17:40 | <gsnedders> | (from RDF/XML?) |
| 17:41 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Dump the triples into Graphviz .dot format? |
| 17:42 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I don't want to write code that does that |
| 17:42 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Surely someone already wriote code to do that? |
| 17:42 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Where? |
| 17:42 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Isn't it, like, a single print statement? |
| 17:42 | <Philip`> | in a loop |
| 17:43 | <jgraham> | http://www.w3.org/2001/11/IsaViz/ |
| 17:44 | <jgraham> | http://librdf.org/raptor/ |
| 17:47 | <jgraham> | http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/frodo/RDFSViz/ |
| 17:48 | jgraham | was coping for adulation for his ability to use Google |
| 17:48 | <jgraham> | hoping |
| 17:51 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: thx |
| 17:51 | gsnedders | blatantly doesn't know what to search for |
| 18:05 | <gsnedders> | Wow. Most of these suck for any large graph. |
| 18:31 | <gsnedders> | RDF and Sparkle are crazy. |
| 18:33 | <gsnedders> | s/Sparkle/SPARQL/ |
| 18:33 | gsnedders | is having thought -> audio -> text loop failing him |
| 18:48 | <yecril71> | Dashiva! OpenXML is a specification that is not intended for anyone to use. |
| 19:01 | <zcorpan_> | jgraham: does html5lib's sanitizer make things safe for browsers that do a reparse in comments or (r)cdata elements? |
| 19:01 | <zcorpan_> | jgraham: or title=``onclick=doEvil() |
| 19:02 | <zcorpan_> | (hmm equals sign is not allowed in unquoted attributes) |
| 19:03 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan_: Due to it being serialized the output will include --> even if the input doesn't |
| 19:03 | <gsnedders> | Likewise with (R)CDATA |
| 19:04 | <zcorpan_> | gsnedders: yes but the server could still be DoS-attacked causing an early EOF |
| 19:04 | <gsnedders> | Then none of those three things is safe |
| 19:04 | <zcorpan_> | which is the third thing you're referring to? |
| 21:40 | <sicking> | Hixie, ping |
| 21:41 | <gsnedders> | Oh noes, it's sicking |
| 21:41 | gsnedders | hides |
| 21:42 | sicking | slaps gsnedders with a wet salmon |
| 21:43 | gsnedders | grabs the salmon, cooks it, eats it, and thanks sicking for his supper |
| 21:43 | <sicking> | enjoy :) |
| 22:21 | <Hixie> | sicking: here |
| 22:23 | <sicking> | Hixie, so i had a brief talk with Sam about the svg-in-html situation when he was here (a few weeks ago) |
| 22:23 | <sicking> | and so I had some feedback. However I don't really know what the status of the whole sitation is |
| 22:24 | <sicking> | don't want to start a war if i can avoid it |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | the status is that there's a commented out bit that is getting implemented by some people, and the svg wg is supposed to send feedback on what their requirements are, either commenting on the commented out proposal, or suggesting a new one |
| 22:25 | <heycam> | we are going to be sending comments based on the commented out version |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | they did suggest some proposal at one point but it had issues that i commentd on |
| 22:25 | <heycam> | that should be sent to the HTML WG within a week, at a guess |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 22:26 | <gsnedders> | Is the SVG WG list member only? |
| 22:26 | <heycam> | gsnedders, nope |
| 22:26 | <heycam> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/ |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | syp: yt? |
| 22:26 | gsnedders | wonders whether he should subscribe, knowing he already has way too many subscriptions |
| 22:26 | <heycam> | :) |
| 22:26 | <syp> | Hixie: yes |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | syp: you still getting that slow script dialog? |
| 22:27 | <heycam> | gsnedders, in fact i am not sure if it is possible for non-WG members to subscribe to it |
| 22:27 | <sicking> | Hixie, cool, i'll wait for the svg group to comment first then |
| 22:27 | heycam | tries, from a different email address |
| 22:27 | <gsnedders> | heycam: Yeah, I just noticed that |
| 22:28 | <syp> | Hixie: yes |
| 22:28 | <syp> | Hixie: did you change something? |
| 22:29 | syp | clears cache |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | syp: no... but i can't work out why you're seeing it |
| 22:29 | <heycam> | hmm, no response to sending mail to public-svg-wg-request |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | syp: do you have a slow pc? |
| 22:30 | <syp> | no, pretty fast (on Linux). I could reproduce it on Windows with Firefox 3.1 |
| 22:37 | <syp> | Hixie: it happens after the document is loaded and you try to scroll somewhere. |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | maybe it's a ff3.1 bug fixed on trunk? |
| 22:40 | syp | tries trunk |
| 22:41 | <syp> | yeah maybe, it works there. |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | ok weird |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | wtf did i use that's ff3.1 only! |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | ok my vm has ff2, let's see how it handles it |
| 22:43 | <syp> | I thought about some floating point behavior that changed with the new js engine. |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | no problem in ff2 even |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | must be something like that yeah |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | while i'm there let me fix the styling issues in ff2 |
| 22:48 | <syp> | hm, works with 3.1 nightly. So it should be fixed on the next beta3. |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | ok i fixed the problems in ff2 |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | now upgrading to ff3 to fix those |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | whatwg list should work again btw |
| 23:35 | <aroben> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 23:36 | <aroben> | hsivonen: nm, I've discovered the validator.nu bugzilla |
| 23:37 | <virtuelv> | This might be a dumb question, but is there any particular reason why <meter> is linear only? |
| 23:39 | <virtuelv> | I mean, you have stuff like vu meters which decidedly are logarithmic in nature |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | just a matter of starting simple |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | you can use <meter> for log scales, just log the values first :-) |
| 23:42 | <virtuelv> | indeed, but it's nicer to avoid doing a transform on them |
| 23:42 | <Lachy> | virtuelv, if, once <meter> is deployed, we see evidence of people using them for logarithm scales, we can investigate solutions for HTML6 |
| 23:44 | <Lachy> | do you have an example of something that uses a log scale and for which <meter> would be useful? |
| 23:44 | <virtuelv> | I gave one a bit up |
| 23:45 | <virtuelv> | you'll find the examples mostly in science |
| 23:45 | <Lachy> | I don't know what a "vu meter" is. I meant do you have an example you could point me to? |
| 23:45 | <virtuelv> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VU_meter |
| 23:47 | <virtuelv> | occurences of logarithmic scales: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_scale |
| 23:57 | <virtuelv> | This also worries me: |
| 23:57 | <virtuelv> | "The meter element represents a scalar measurement within a known range, or a fractional value; for example disk usage, the relevance of a query result, or the fraction of a voting population to have selected a particular candidate." |
| 23:57 | <virtuelv> | it's not clear to me from reading what "known range is" |
| 23:57 | <virtuelv> | is 1-[over 9000] a valid known range? |
| 23:58 | <virtuelv> | [over 9000] is an indeterminate number, only known to be over 9000 |
| 23:59 | <virtuelv> | it could be 9001, or 9000^10e8 |
