| 00:01 | <Niictar> | Fair enough |
| 00:02 | <Niictar> | On a side note, http://experiments.instrum3nt.com/markmahoney/ball/ is really just a little more cool than I thought it would be |
| 00:04 | <olliej> | Niictar: hehe |
| 00:04 | <olliej> | Niictar: something seems off with the movement though |
| 00:04 | <olliej> | not sure what |
| 00:06 | <Niictar> | Physics wise? |
| 00:12 | <olliej> | yeah |
| 00:12 | <olliej> | cant put my finger on it though |
| 00:12 | <olliej> | maybe t's just the ball does deform? so bounces are all perfect? |
| 00:13 | <Niictar> | Yea, the ball is pretty stiff. It might look more or less strange if it was just a solid circle, maybe |
| 00:14 | <Niictar> | I wonder what kind of _practical_ benefits this might have |
| 00:15 | <Niictar> | By pretty stiff, I do actually mean "doesn't change shape at all" :P |
| 00:17 | Philip` | wonders why the ball can't be dragged in Opera |
| 00:17 | <olliej> | http://deanm.github.com/pre3d/colorscube.html is also cool |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | seems to me the ball gains momentum as it bounces |
| 00:18 | <olliej> | maybe that's it |
| 00:18 | <olliej> | damn you google -- your horrible site has just consume half an hour of my life |
| 00:18 | <olliej> | weeeee |
| 00:20 | Niictar | just made Firefox die a horrible death with the smalltalk app |
| 00:21 | <olliej> | heh |
| 00:22 | <olliej> | TM should do better than it seems to in many of these and i'm not sure why |
| 00:22 | <olliej> | Niictar: oh, firefox shipping or firefox nightly? |
| 00:23 | <Niictar> | Hum, good question. Firefox 3 beta 4? |
| 00:23 | <olliej> | 3.x or 3.0 beta? |
| 00:23 | <olliej> | please tell me 3.x |
| 00:24 | <Niictar> | 3.0.7 apparently |
| 00:24 | <olliej> | Niictar: google minefield -- the second hit should be a link to firefox nightlies |
| 00:25 | <Philip`> | Google Minefield? Are they moving into military hardware now? |
| 00:25 | <Niictar> | Besides the name being obvious, what exactly is a "nightly" |
| 00:25 | <olliej> | Philip`: i'd be worried about userfriendly minefields |
| 00:26 | <Philip`> | I'd be worried about beta minefields |
| 00:26 | <olliej> | Niictar: a build of there current development tree |
| 00:26 | <olliej> | Niictar: minefield is the mozilla equivalent of the webkit ngihtlies |
| 00:26 | <Niictar> | Found it |
| 00:29 | <Niictar> | Hrm, I had something before that was Firefox but it wasn't Firefox. Ah, it was Shiretoko. Is that sort of the same idea as Minefield? |
| 00:29 | <olliej> | err |
| 00:29 | <olliej> | not sure |
| 00:29 | <olliej> | the name rings a bell |
| 00:29 | olliej | looks at sayrer, sicking and roc |
| 00:29 | <Philip`> | That might be more of a beta |
| 00:30 | <Philip`> | or maybe it's just branch rather than trunk |
| 00:30 | Philip` | likes the idea of asking somebody who actually knows |
| 00:30 | <olliej> | so do i |
| 00:30 | <olliej> | but they're hiding |
| 00:30 | <sayrer> | Shiretoko corresponds to Firefox 3.x |
| 00:30 | <sayrer> | Minefield is tip of the trunk |
| 00:31 | <Niictar> | ! I sort of expected this one, but all my add-ons =( |
| 00:31 | <sayrer> | they happen to be pretty close atm |
| 00:31 | <sayrer> | Niictar, there is a pref to turn off the check |
| 00:31 | <Niictar> | Also, http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/3.6a1pre/whatsnew/ is the page Minefield opens up which is a 404. Clearly I'm on the bleeding edge :P |
| 00:32 | <Niictar> | Does the check just stop bugging me, or will it try to keep my addons anyway? |
| 00:32 | <sicking> | olliej, Shiretoko is the project name for the FF3.5 (formerly numbered 3.1) release |
| 00:32 | <olliej> | sicking: righto |
| 00:32 | <sicking> | olliej, minefield is the name of trunk nightly builds |
| 00:32 | <sicking> | olliej, the two are the same until we branch |
| 00:32 | <olliej> | sicking: yeah i knew minefield |
| 00:33 | <olliej> | not shiretoko |
| 00:33 | <olliej> | ah ha |
| 00:33 | <sicking> | which happened some weeks ago |
| 00:34 | Philip` | wonders if Shiretoko comes from the same place as hobbits |
| 00:35 | <MikeSmith> | annevk3: do you know what they're talking about at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2009Mar/att-0051/2009-03-18.html#topic4 ? |
| 00:35 | <Niictar> | 3.1 must support the <video> tag, cause my page is blank, rather than defaulting to the <embed> tag inbetween :P |
| 00:36 | <MikeSmith> | annevk3: ask Sam Ruby for a RNG schema for XForms in HTML? |
| 00:36 | <sicking> | Philip`, no, that would be the shire :) |
| 00:36 | <sicking> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiretoko_National_Park |
| 00:36 | <Niictar> | Except this is 3.6? |
| 00:37 | <gavin> | trunk is currently versioned 3.6a1pre |
| 00:37 | <Niictar> | That far ahead from the shipping? |
| 00:37 | <gavin> | that's just an arbitrary number larger than 3.5, though |
| 00:37 | <sicking> | Niictar, yes, 3.5 supports <video>, but only the ogg codec family |
| 00:38 | <Niictar> | Is 3.5 an arbitrary number higher than 3.1? |
| 00:38 | Niictar | knows very little about this right now |
| 00:38 | <gavin> | no |
| 00:38 | <gavin> | 3.5 is the version we're going to release next |
| 00:38 | <gavin> | the plan used to be to release as 3.1 |
| 00:38 | <gavin> | now the plan is to release as 3.5 |
| 00:38 | <Niictar> | How did I get stuck with 3.0.x for so long? o.O |
| 00:39 | <gavin> | 3.0.x is the only currently released version |
| 00:39 | <sayrer> | conversations like this make envy sekrit release decisions |
| 00:39 | <sayrer> | but only a little |
| 00:40 | <Niictar> | Heh |
| 00:41 | <Niictar> | Ok, so anyways, now I know I have something way ahead |
| 00:42 | <Niictar> | Sickening, you mentioned "3.5 supports <video>, but only the ogg codec family" |
| 00:42 | <Niictar> | Does that include .ogv? |
| 00:43 | <Niictar> | sicking* |
| 00:44 | <Niictar> | Cause I tried loading this <video src="http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/video/firefox.ogv"; autoplay></video> in Minefield and all I get is a blank page, still |
| 00:45 | Niictar | thinks this lack of explaination about what is wrong is going to make it very difficult to troubleshoot why a video isn't working on a client's machine |
| 00:45 | <Niictar> | Not by you guys, I'm not being impatient. But just from the browser |
| 00:46 | <sicking> | Niictar, i believe it should work yes. |
| 00:46 | <Niictar> | Then what should I do when it does not? |
| 00:46 | <sicking> | Niictar, this blog has lots of examples: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/ |
| 00:47 | <sicking> | Niictar, there should also be docs on developer.mozilla.org |
| 00:47 | <sicking> | Niictar, are you sending a proper mimetype? Just a guess |
| 00:47 | <Niictar> | Maybe not? |
| 00:48 | <Niictar> | http://www.html5.ca/video.html is what I am loading |
| 00:48 | <Niictar> | Excuse the embedded flash video |
| 00:48 | <Niictar> | I'll look into those resources, though |
| 00:53 | <Niictar> | Whoa, hey. I made it work. |
| 00:53 | <Niictar> | I removed the content between <video> and </video> |
| 00:56 | jwalden | notes that the bouncing ball demo kinda fails when the ball is released partially in more than one window in vertical space |
| 01:06 | <Niictar> | On another note, that made no difference. However, when controls="controls" is enabled, FireFox is nice enough to show a video should exist but can't load. Safari still shows nothing |
| 01:06 | <kinetik> | Niictar: that video is being served as text/html |
| 01:07 | <Niictar> | Which? |
| 01:07 | <kinetik> | http://www.whatwg.org/demos/2008-sept/video/firefox.ogv |
| 01:07 | <Niictar> | Ah |
| 01:07 | <Niictar> | Anything I can do about that? |
| 01:07 | <roc> | someone should fix that |
| 01:07 | <roc> | some of those demos are cool but calling the site "Chrome Experiments" and pushing Chrome on the visitors is a bit much |
| 01:08 | <Niictar> | Since FireFox and Safari handles them well enough, too. I actually haven't tried using Chrome on any of those experiments, yet |
| 01:13 | <sayrer> | roc, I wonder how many of them are setTimeout interval experiments |
| 01:13 | <roc> | good question |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | jesus wept that was a ridiculously content-free thread |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | seriously people |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | USE |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | CASES |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | how hard can this be |
| 01:31 | <Niictar> | Hixie, which? |
| 01:32 | <Niictar> | This conversation, or somewhere else? |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | the <time> thread |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | i just sent a reply to it |
| 01:36 | Niictar | risks sounding dumb here |
| 01:36 | <Niictar> | Are you sure you sent it? My inbox doesn't have it and I can't find it here: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-March/thread.html |
| 01:41 | <Philip`> | I see it only on public-html |
| 01:43 | <rubys> | I have no concrete suggestion, but I love the irony of "please do not cross-post" in an email that was cross-posted. |
| 05:04 | <Niictar> | Hrm, what is WHATWG's consensus regarding microformats? |
| 05:04 | <Niictar> | It seems some people aren't fans |
| 05:27 | <Niictar> | And FAQs are a wonderful thing |
| 05:28 | Niictar | also notices that no one seems awake at 11:33pm MST |
| 05:35 | <MikeSmith> | Niictar: there's folks awake |
| 05:35 | <MikeSmith> | I think you just scared them away with that bad word you said. |
| 05:36 | <Niictar> | Ha |
| 05:40 | <Niictar> | Well, the whatwg FAQs imply microformats are an acceptable method for effectivly creating your own elements :P |
| 05:40 | <Niictar> | But I was reading in the mailing list archives and I saw a number of people looking at HTML 5 to replace microformats or at least halt "abuses" |
| 05:41 | <Niictar> | Just in general |
| 05:41 | <MikeSmith> | Niictar: the word "microformants" was not the word I meant |
| 05:41 | <Niictar> | Oh |
| 05:41 | <Niictar> | Well, it's the only one I said since Hixie commented about the <time> feedback :P |
| 05:42 | Niictar | shrugs |
| 05:42 | <MikeSmith> | I can't remember who advocated for replacing microformats |
| 05:43 | <MikeSmith> | Niictar: "consensus" |
| 05:44 | <MikeSmith> | the main gripes I've heard about microformats is that they are not spec'ed to the degree necessary for implementors to implement support for them interoperably |
| 05:45 | <Niictar> | Makes sense |
| 05:45 | <MikeSmith> | I think hsivonen has said he'd like to add support for some microformats to validator.nu but he's not found a spec he could use for doing that |
| 05:46 | <Niictar> | That's a tricky word: "interoperably" |
| 05:47 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 05:47 | <MikeSmith> | so is "consensus" |
| 05:47 | <Niictar> | Fair enough |
| 05:47 | <MikeSmith> | the general consensus in the WHATWG is that the arguments that have the most technical merit win |
| 05:48 | <Niictar> | Which is determined by the editor in the end |
| 05:49 | <MikeSmith> | actually, if it's something that affects browser implementations, it's determined by the browser vendors in the end |
| 05:50 | <Niictar> | You know more than me |
| 05:51 | <MikeSmith> | in those cases, Hixie is sometimes brokering a decision -- trying to determine ahead of time what will be acceptable to the major implementors (the ones who are engaged in the work at least) |
| 05:51 | <MikeSmith> | Niictar: btw, you are on Mountain time? |
| 05:51 | <Niictar> | Yeaup |
| 05:52 | <MikeSmith> | Boulder? |
| 05:52 | <Niictar> | Calgary |
| 05:52 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 05:52 | <Niictar> | If Boulder is a city/town kind of place |
| 05:54 | <Niictar> | But speaking of time, it is late for me, so I am heading off to bed |
| 05:54 | <Niictar> | Cheers |
| 06:01 | <MikeSmith> | Niictar: 'night |
| 08:15 | <yecril71> | Why no official DOCTYPE for XHTML? |
| 08:15 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/#xml |
| 08:16 | <yecril71> | The HTML validator does not validate XHTML and the XML validator needs the DOCTYPE to run. |
| 08:17 | <yecril71> | I need the DOCTYPE for validation, not for sniffing. |
| 08:17 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: no, you don't at http://html5.validator.nu/ |
| 08:18 | <yecril71> | HTTP ERROR: 415 |
| 08:18 | <yecril71> | application/x-www-form-urlencoded not supported. Please use multipart/form-data. |
| 08:19 | <yecril71> | Additionally, JavaScript error in line 567. |
| 08:19 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: IE? |
| 08:19 | <yecril71> | Yes. |
| 08:20 | <yecril71> | And <URL:http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/#xml>; sends me to W3C validator, not to your one. |
| 08:21 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: "A number of attributes in HTML5 are boolean attributes" - i'd suggest s/5// or maybe even s/in HTML5// |
| 08:22 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: see the link in the next sentence |
| 08:22 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: also see the link at the end: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.text.sgml/msg/c3e53dee2c152a81 |
| 08:23 | <yecril71> | Oh, I see. |
| 08:48 | <yecril71> | And where is the DTD file? |
| 08:50 | <yecril71> | xhtml11.dtd |
| 08:50 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: tough call... are you updating the text regarding ie8 now? |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I think I'm going to say something, but I'm deferring publishing actual detailed tables until the proper release of IE8 |
| 09:01 | <zcorpan> | yecril71: the xhtml11.dtd file has (had?) a syntax error for years which will break clients that use a validating parser |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I want to research for myself how IE8 *really* behaves. I don't trust vendor documentation. |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/xml/content/src/xhtml11.dtd |
| 09:01 | zcorpan | was thinking about the xhtml11.dtd file hosted at w3.org |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | But that is just entities. |
| 09:01 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: how ie8 behaves wrt what? |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: anything that affects layout modes |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | MSXML needs a full DTD, not just entities. |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | Otherwise I could define the entities inline. |
| 09:01 | <zcorpan> | yecril71: use <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">; |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | (I just need a few of them) |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | That is for XHTML 1.0 Strict, not for XHTML5. |
| 09:01 | <zcorpan> | so? |
| 09:01 | <zcorpan> | xhtml5 allows any doctype |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: for your requirements, I suggest the following |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | But it will not validate with unmatching DTD. |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | 1) use "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | as the public id |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | I do not need any public ID at all. |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | 2) convert the whattf RELAX NG schema to DTD using trang |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | 3) host that one yourself |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | 4) use it as you system id |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: you need the public id if you want entities to work in Gecko and WebKit |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: blame XML Core :-) |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | I only need it for XSLT, I do not intend to publish XHTML. |
| 09:01 | <yecril71> | Not until MSIE supports XHTML. |
| 09:01 | yecril71 | blames XML Core. |
| 09:01 | yecril71 | sees blaming XML Core does not help. |
| 09:01 | zcorpan | realises that he is a member of the xml core wg |
| 09:02 | Philip` | sees a fun bug comment about how certain software puts domain names inside comments, and if you have an IDN domain like www.xn--something-xyz.com then it interacts badly with SGML comment parsing rules |
| 09:14 | <yecril71> | Could these steps be listed in the HTML5 FAQ? |
| 09:16 | <hsivonen> | I think I'm going to wait on recommending the HTML5 doctype until Firefox 3.5 and IE8 ship. |
| 09:16 | <zcorpan> | yecril71: i think it's not actually a very frequently asked question :) |
| 09:17 | <zcorpan> | yecril71: but i'm not a gatekeeper - feel free to add it, or maybe blog on blog.whatwg.org |
| 09:18 | jgraham | considers writing a mail filter to ignore mails with too many capital letters, decides that it would have too many false positives and, moreover, that he can't be bothered |
| 09:18 | <yecril71> | Perhaps a silly question: why a/@type and not img/@type? |
| 09:19 | <yecril71> | I thing img/@type would be more useful of the two. |
| 09:19 | <zcorpan> | <a type> is there for consistency wiht <link type>, i think |
| 09:19 | <zcorpan> | what's the use case for <img type>? |
| 09:20 | <yecril71> | So that the server can do something with images the client does not support. |
| 09:20 | <yecril71> | E.g. convert them on the fly. |
| 09:21 | <zcorpan> | doesn't Accept solve that use case? |
| 09:21 | <yecril71> | If it is not */*. |
| 09:21 | <yecril71> | So perhaps it can be labelled as a browser bug? |
| 09:22 | <zcorpan> | yeah. i don't see how type='' helps with the use case |
| 09:22 | <zcorpan> | quite the contrary - i would expect that type='image/new-fancy' would make the browser not do request the resource at all (if it looks at type='') |
| 09:23 | <yecril71> | That should not reach the browser, it should be replaced by the server. |
| 09:24 | <zcorpan> | hmm, are you saying you want to negotiate the image format when processing the request of the document that references the image? |
| 09:24 | <zcorpan> | why not do the negotation on the request for the image itself? |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | browsers (should?) have different Accept for document requests and image requests |
| 09:26 | <zcorpan> | in any case, type on img seems to just help you with saving a http request when you reference an image that a browser doesn't support for browsers that look at type='' |
| 09:27 | <Philip`> | Why not just use PNG and JPEG and then you don't need to worry about new fancy formats? |
| 09:27 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: maybe because a new fancy format is more fancy? :) |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Didn't save MNG |
| 09:28 | <annevk3> | ap, yeah, maybe we should just allow port scanning with XHR2 |
| 09:28 | <zcorpan> | hmm opera should probably say it Accepts image/svg+xml in <img> requests |
| 09:29 | <zcorpan> | wonder if i've filed a bug about that already or not |
| 09:29 | <yecril71> | I intend to use PNG for the user agent but the source images are in a fancy (editorļæ½s) format. |
| 09:29 | <annevk3> | zcorpan, I don't think we should, fwiw |
| 09:29 | <yecril71> | The server is responsible of converting/substituting as needed. |
| 09:29 | <zcorpan> | annevk3: why not? |
| 09:30 | <annevk3> | zcorpan, content negotiation had its chance and failed |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I think I've now addressed all your pending feedback on http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ |
| 09:30 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks! |
| 09:30 | <zcorpan> | yecril71: you could use data-* attributes for your needs on the server |
| 09:30 | zcorpan | looks |
| 09:32 | <yecril71> | It can be done, with DTD customized for that. Still not pretty but makes sense. |
| 09:33 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: If you prepare a DTD for your MSXML3 use case, please publish it with a permissive license (preferably MIT) |
| 09:34 | <yecril71> | Sure, but where? |
| 09:34 | <hsivonen> | on your site |
| 09:35 | <yecril71> | Would you like me to publish it anyway? |
| 09:36 | <hsivonen> | yecril71: if it addresses a use case for other MSXML users, sure |
| 09:36 | <yecril71> | I am not sure it would be easy to find on my site. |
| 09:38 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I forgot to mention Chrome on /doctype/ |
| 09:40 | <annevk3> | lol, Roy is at it again |
| 09:40 | <annevk3> | regarding parsing a Web adress he writes: "... sorry, this entire section is disconnected from reality. It doesn't match any of the known implementations and directly contradicts the standard." |
| 09:40 | <annevk3> | if anything is disconnected from reality it's him |
| 09:41 | <yecril71> | Besides, the rnc would be the source for DTD. |
| 09:41 | <jgraham> | Anyway, as I was saying web browsers suck. |
| 09:42 | <yecril71> | Since the rnc can change, the method to obtain the DTD is more important. |
| 09:42 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: "In the XML mode, special rules for the HTML body element do not apply" - this is probably out of date when the css wg publishes css 2.1 |
| 09:42 | <jgraham> | The reason for this is that, afaict, only Opera will allow me to use Linear B ideograms for my js variable names |
| 09:42 | <jgraham> | But it won't display them |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: is it already out of date for implementations? |
| 09:42 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yes |
| 09:43 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: ok. thanks |
| 09:44 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: fixed |
| 09:45 | <yecril71> | jgraham: maybe a font problem? |
| 09:45 | <jgraham> | yecril71: Firefox displays them |
| 09:45 | <yecril71> | I remember IE6 is unable to display unstyled ⇒ |
| 09:45 | <yecril71> | but it displays ⇐ all right :-) |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan> | "In 2000 before Netscape 6 was released, Mozilla actually had parser modes that enforced HTML syntax rules." - i remember a few years ago i tried to find such a build and test it but failed |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I think http://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/m18/ might contain a build that has it |
| 09:49 | <hsivonen> | or http://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/m17/ |
| 09:53 | <roc> | show some respect for the dead |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | no way! |
| 09:55 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: "Please be sure to test your image alignment in Firefox, Safari, Chrome or Opera 10." - hmm, why the "10" there? :) |
| 09:55 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: because of the mode switching regressions in 9.5 and 9.6. |
| 09:56 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I suppose that's not necessary, though |
| 09:56 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: since the regressions didn't affect that doctype |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | ah |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | right |
| 09:56 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: fixed |
| 09:57 | <hsivonen> | when IE8 ships, I think I'm going to have to add a whole another table of flowchart for it... |
| 09:58 | <zcorpan> | yeah ie8 mode switching is *crazy* |
| 09:59 | <hsivonen> | yeah, I just wrote "The choice of mode depends on data from various sources: doctype, a meta element, an HTTP header, periodically downloaded data from Microsoft, the intranet zone, settings made by the user, settings made by an intranet administrator and a UI button togglable by the user." and realized I wasn't joking |
| 10:00 | <Philip`> | It also depends on the application that embeds the HTML rendering control |
| 10:00 | <roc> | it's hard to forsee any outcome but disaster |
| 10:00 | <Philip`> | http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/03/10/more-ie8-extensibility-improvements.aspx |
| 10:01 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: thanks. noted |
| 10:03 | <yecril71> | Philip`: e.g., mshta treats <!--[if IE]> as a comment :-) |
| 10:05 | <annevk3> | Hixie, I usually have a snack <time>16:00</time> is missing the word "at" |
| 10:13 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: if you feel like it could you at some point conjure forth a list of text/html pages that contain the string "<![CDATA["? :) |
| 10:14 | <zcorpan> | maybe case-insensitively |
| 10:16 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: There's zillions, mostly in <script>s and <style>s |
| 10:16 | <Philip`> | I guess those aren't what you want? |
| 10:18 | <zcorpan> | hmm... maybe skip those that are preceded by // or /* |
| 10:22 | <Philip`> | That still gives a load of false positives with stuff like <!-- <![CDATA[ |
| 10:23 | <zcorpan> | maybe skip those that have // or /* or <!-- before them on the same line? |
| 10:24 | <Philip`> | Might it be more interesting to look for things that get tokenised into comment nodes with data "[cdata[..."? |
| 10:25 | <zcorpan> | for the proposal to support cdata sections in pcdata, yes |
| 10:26 | <hsivonen> | Do scripts depend on partial text node being present in the DOM immediately after document.write if a document.write writes some text without any other token after? |
| 10:26 | <annevk3> | i think you want all the stuff to see if it is possible to do cdata sections in cdata even for HTML |
| 10:26 | <zcorpan> | but i'd like to evaluate jonas' proposal for stripping "<![CDATA[" in cdata elements, too |
| 10:26 | <Philip`> | Are you interested in people writing <script type="text/javascript"><![CDATA[ etc? |
| 10:26 | <Philip`> | (http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_testing.html) |
| 10:26 | <annevk3> | hsivonen, partial text node? |
| 10:26 | <hsivonen> | document.write("<div id=foo>bar"); alert(document.gEBI("foo").textContent); |
| 10:27 | <annevk3> | does it work in browsers? |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | let's find out... |
| 10:27 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: yes or if (e.responseText.contains('<![CDATA[')) etc |
| 10:27 | <annevk3> | per spec it should work afaict |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | annevk3: alerts bar in Firefox 3 but empty string in Safari and Opera |
| 10:31 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/cdata-not-preceded-by-a-comment-thing.txt ? |
| 10:31 | <olliej> | hsivonen: i'm not sure we support textContent |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | olliej: you do |
| 10:31 | <olliej> | hsivonen: can you try innerText? |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | olliej: just tried innerHTML |
| 10:31 | <olliej> | hsivonen: did that work? |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | IE8 mode says bar with innerHTML |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | olliej: bar in Firefox and IE8, empty string in Opera and Safari |
| 10:32 | <olliej> | hsivonen: you want to file a bug don't you? :D |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | I'm going to email public-html and ask we try to adopt the Opera/Safari behavior in the spec |
| 10:32 | <olliej> | hsivonen: \o/ |
| 10:33 | olliej | bets there is some website, somewhere that depends on the ie/ffx behaviour |
| 10:33 | <Philip`> | If there isn't, you could write one, and then there would be |
| 10:33 | <hsivonen> | doing it the IE/Firefox way would suck for the off the main thread HTML5 parsing effort |
| 10:34 | <Philip`> | so you could use that argument as evidence for design decision at all :-) |
| 10:34 | <Philip`> | *any design decision |
| 10:34 | <olliej> | hsivonen: document.write("<script>alert('foo')</script>") i think makes that hard |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | olliej: that needs to be tokenized on the main thread anyway |
| 10:35 | jgraham | notes that there seem to be a few Opera site-compat. bugs related to CDATA sections |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | olliej: what I don't like is joining main thread and off-the-main-thread text nodes |
| 10:35 | Philip` | has experienced one of those bugs in Opera, on some Microsoft site |
| 10:35 | <pesla> | http://www.dzone.com/links/transforming_the_button_element_with_sliding_door.html |
| 10:35 | <pesla> | fuck, c/p failure |
| 10:35 | hsivonen | goes to lunch before emailing the list |
| 10:35 | pesla | gets some coffee |
| 10:51 | <ap> | hsivonen: re partial content - WebKit has a related bug https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8961 - so maybe our behavior is not the best here, for a change |
| 10:55 | jgraham | notes Lachy failed to not cross post |
| 10:55 | <Lachy> | jgraham, I didn't know which list I should pick |
| 10:56 | <zcorpan> | flip a coin |
| 10:56 | <zcorpan> | or do what chaals says and post to public-html |
| 10:57 | <Lachy> | but then the people on whatwg only miss out |
| 10:57 | <Philip`> | I think they would be glad to miss out on continued discussion of <time> |
| 10:57 | <annevk3> | I know I would :) |
| 10:58 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Your message wasn't that good ;) |
| 10:58 | <Lachy> | thanks |
| 11:00 | <Philip`> | Anybody who isn't already subscribed to both lists isn't worth worrying about :-) |
| 11:01 | <Philip`> | Clearly they lack the necessary dedication to the cause |
| 11:01 | karlcow | has not been reading the time thread at all, and will not. choose your battles ;) |
| 11:02 | <karlcow> | that said time to move to work |
| 11:13 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: why does article, nav, etc have 1em top and bottom margin? |
| 11:15 | annevk3 | thinks it makes sense |
| 11:15 | zcorpan | points at topic |
| 11:16 | <zcorpan> | i think authors expect them to have the same default styling as div |
| 11:17 | <zcorpan> | though maybe the default margin is nice and we should push for it |
| 11:17 | <annevk3> | that'd be boring |
| 11:18 | <annevk3> | i actually think nested sections should have a left / right margin as well depending on LTR/LTR |
| 11:18 | <annevk3> | RTL |
| 11:18 | <jgraham> | annevk3: Not convinced. |
| 11:19 | <jgraham> | E.g. LaTeX doesn't do that |
| 11:19 | <annevk3> | and nobody would want that |
| 11:19 | <annevk3> | but still |
| 11:19 | <zcorpan> | why would you have something by default that nobody wants? |
| 11:20 | <jgraham> | The only reason would be if it gave a higher percentage of correct usage |
| 11:20 | <zcorpan> | c.f. <img border=0 |
| 11:20 | zcorpan | expects a higher percentage of * { margin:0 } usage |
| 11:21 | <zcorpan> | i expect most authors will take their div based layout, change to new elements and update their selectors, and expect it to work |
| 11:22 | <annevk3> | I don't think that would give the right result |
| 11:22 | <zcorpan> | ...because? |
| 11:23 | <annevk3> | because I don't think there's a straight mapping |
| 11:23 | <jgraham> | Indeed. The problem with <section> (which BenMillard thinks will be fatal) is that you really want people to only use it for things that would get a new subheading |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | ap: that bug seems to be a different scenario |
| 11:24 | <jgraham> | It totally sucks that there is no serious proposal for a ::outline-depth selector |
| 11:24 | <ap> | hsivonen: yes, I said it was related, not the same |
| 11:24 | <annevk3> | Ben might very well be right |
| 11:24 | annevk3 | is sceptical too |
| 11:24 | <jgraham> | The thing is, if we can make it work, it will solve a lot of problems |
| 11:24 | <zcorpan> | it also sucks that there's no easy way yet to evaluate that you got it right |
| 11:24 | <jgraham> | But I think it needs coordination with the CSS WG |
| 11:25 | <zcorpan> | or an experimental implementation and a proposal draft |
| 11:25 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I was going to say that :) |
| 11:25 | <jgraham> | CSS still seems rather dysfunctional |
| 11:29 | <jgraham> | Also, validator.nu could show the document outline tree by default |
| 11:37 | <hsivonen> | parsing would be soooo much nicer without document.write... |
| 11:38 | <beowulf> | i expect when authors change div based layouts to new elements the difference between article and section will be lost, but i'm speaking for the dumb html authors |
| 11:41 | <Philip`> | <section> is just a semantic <div> |
| 11:41 | <Philip`> | It doesn't matter what the semantics are, it just matters that it has semantics |
| 11:42 | <hsivonen> | mmm semantics! |
| 11:42 | jgraham | wonders if Philip` is talking about how it will be percieved |
| 11:43 | <beowulf> | it'll be perceived as a replacement for div, not a variation, i think |
| 11:45 | hsivonen | expects elaborate articles to be written about the virtues of <section> compared to <div> and another set of articles to be written refuting the first set of articles |
| 11:45 | jgraham | was going to start on the second sort of article now to get ahead of the game |
| 11:45 | <Philip`> | jgraham: What would matter other than how it is perceived? |
| 11:46 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Your personal opinion |
| 11:46 | <beowulf> | can i coin the phrase 'section soup' now or is that already taken? |
| 11:46 | beowulf | leaves 'article soup' for somebody else |
| 11:49 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: looks good |
| 11:50 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: /doctype/ ? |
| 11:50 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 11:50 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks |
| 12:08 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: isn't it "mars"? |
| 12:14 | Philip` | wishes the alt text in hsivonen's <img alt="In a nutshell: "> was accessible to him, since he couldn't figure out what the image meant |
| 12:18 | <Lachy> | zcorpan, isn't that what I said? |
| 12:20 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: case-sensitivity |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | what difference does that make? |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | it's the same word |
| 12:20 | <Lachy> | but it's a proper noun, so i capitalised it |
| 12:21 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: it's a month name, so it's in lower case |
| 12:21 | <Lachy> | is that some strange Norwegian grammar rule? |
| 12:22 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: English is the exception that capitalizes months and weekdays |
| 12:22 | <Lachy> | oh, ok |
| 12:22 | <virtuelv> | hsivonen: and german, no |
| 12:22 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: I suppose, but that's a more general capitalization-happiness thing :-) |
| 12:23 | <Lachy> | so is the capitalisation how Norwegians tell the difference between mars (month name) and Mars (planet)? |
| 12:23 | <yecril71> | How does having img border=0 improve validity in the wild? |
| 12:25 | <Lachy> | yecril71, because it's common for border=0 to be included in copy-pasteable fragments (e.g. for badges), designed for authors to include in their own pages. |
| 12:26 | <virtuelv> | Lachy: note that many Norwegians also pronounce the two slightly differently |
| 12:26 | <virtuelv> | "mars" vs "maars" |
| 12:27 | <Lachy> | virtuelv, are you using the "aa" to mean a long aaah sound, or the sound of the norweign letter Ć„? |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | Wordpress sucks |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | Film at 11 |
| 12:27 | <virtuelv> | Lachy: long a |
| 12:28 | <Lachy> | ok, I'm unsure how you can pronounce a longer version of "mars" |
| 12:28 | <Lachy> | but then, I'm also unsure of a lot of norweign pronunciations |
| 12:29 | jgraham | notices he failed to close a section |
| 12:33 | zcorpan | wonders whether xml-stylesheet uses Web URLs handling in browsers |
| 12:34 | <annevk3> | zcorpan, I hope it does |
| 12:34 | zcorpan | sees a general movement from "Foo5" to "Web Foo" in naming of specs |
| 12:34 | <annevk3> | zcorpan, most of XML does too |
| 12:35 | <Philip`> | WHATWG = Web W3C |
| 12:36 | <zcorpan> | should html5 be renamed to Web HTML? |
| 12:37 | <Philip`> | We should rename the WWW to Web WWW |
| 12:37 | <Philip`> | and abbreviate it as WW |
| 12:37 | <annevk3> | zcorpan, WML was once proposed |
| 12:37 | <jgraham> | Can be rename the internet to the Web Internet? |
| 12:38 | <zcorpan> | the Web Web? |
| 12:38 | <Lachy> | Philip`, that would mean "Web World Wide Web" |
| 12:39 | jgraham | guesses Philip` Is aware of the expansion of WWW |
| 12:46 | <hsivonen> | Does anyone know what XiphQT does with keyframes if I uncheck the box? will every frame become a keyframe? will it figure out keyframe insertion itself? |
| 12:48 | <Philip`> | Wow, I can paste stuff from OO Calc into Google Docs and it actually works |
| 12:49 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: which OS and browser? |
| 12:49 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Linux, Opera |
| 12:50 | <Philip`> | Well, it doesn't preserve any formatting or anything, but it's copied the grid of strings properly |
| 12:50 | <yecril71> | And "img border=0" is more valid than what? |
| 12:50 | zcorpan | fires up M17 |
| 12:52 | <zcorpan> | the live dom viewer doesn't work :( |
| 12:52 | <zcorpan> | "iframe.contentWindow has no properties" |
| 12:54 | <zcorpan> | yes i made it work |
| 12:54 | <zcorpan> | javascript:alert(iframe.contentWindow = frames[0]) |
| 12:55 | <zcorpan> | oops now it crashed |
| 12:55 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi |
| 12:58 | zcorpan | tests <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><title <foo/bar> |
| 12:59 | <zcorpan> | i get an attribute "<foo/bar" on HEAD |
| 13:01 | zcorpan | tests <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><body>test</body> |
| 13:01 | <zcorpan> | the body has no children |
| 13:02 | zcorpan | tests <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p>x<p>x |
| 13:02 | <zcorpan> | the Ps are nested! |
| 13:04 | <zcorpan> | <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p><b><p>x - the second P is ignored |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan> | <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p><asdf>test - P is empty |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan> | <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p><font>test - is inserted |
| 13:05 | <zcorpan> | marquee and blink are not |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | <plaintext> is ignored |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | but <isindex> is inserted (though doesn't render) |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: try putting an <img> as a child of body with strict doctype. it's very confusing |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | oh, you already tested <body>test</body> |
| 13:08 | <zcorpan> | <!DOCTYPE html public "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN"><p><b>foo<i>bar</b>baz - the </b> is ignored |
| 13:09 | <zcorpan> | <link> and <title> tags in body are ignored |
| 13:10 | <zcorpan> | i.e. <p><title>x</title> and <p>x are equivalent |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | <embed> is ignored |
| 13:12 | <zcorpan> | <image> is ignored |
| 13:13 | <zcorpan> | <p ""> creates an attribute with no name |
| 13:14 | hsivonen | finds http://twitter.com/johnfoliot |
| 13:15 | <zcorpan> | it seems to insert a doctype even if there was no doctype in the source |
| 13:16 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: that might be for the benefit of Composer. Or something like that. |
| 13:17 | <zcorpan> | & is supported |
| 13:17 | zcorpan | turns to the spec to find more things to test |
| 13:18 | <zcorpan> | framesets are supported |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | noembed and its contents are not inserted. it's not parsed as cdata |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | comments are not inserted |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | oops crashed again |
| 13:20 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: consider having a shorter url to the live dom viewer |
| 13:20 | <zcorpan> | e.g. livedom.hixie.ch |
| 13:22 | jgraham | always thinks for a moment it is at livedom.hixie.ch before remembering it is not |
| 13:23 | <zcorpan> | sgml style comments are supported |
| 13:24 | <zcorpan> | whey a lone <table> inserts tbody, tr, td |
| 13:26 | <zcorpan> | table parsing seems weird |
| 13:28 | <zcorpan> | seems to basically always ignore unexpected end tags |
| 13:30 | <zcorpan> | attributes on stray <html> is ignored but on stray <body> is used |
| 13:31 | <zcorpan> | </h2> doesn't close a h1 |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | document.write doesn't seem to be supported at all |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | which is weird |
| 13:34 | <zcorpan> | oh wait it is supported |
| 13:34 | <zcorpan> | if the script is in head |
| 13:35 | <zcorpan> | <!DOCTYPE html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0//en"><script>document.write('<di');</script>v> works |
| 13:36 | <zcorpan> | but <!DOCTYPE html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0//en"><body><script>document.write('<di');</script>v> does not |
| 13:40 | <hsivonen> | regarding http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0115.html isn't unilateral vocabulary creation without consulting with the community a behavior that RDF distributed extensibility is designed for? |
| 13:45 | zcorpan | is now satisfied and lets M17 return to its grave |
| 13:52 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: That was roughly what I thought |
| 14:04 | <hsivonen> | aaargh: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/generic/nsObjectFrame.cpp#3157 |
| 14:13 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ugh |
| 14:14 | <Philip`> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=234675#c24 - a grep suggests there are indeed quite a few sites setting scale after salign |
| 14:14 | <Philip`> | though I don't know how many of those pages would break if you changed the order |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if this list needs amending for HTML5: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/style/nsCSSParser.cpp#2916 |
| 14:16 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: there's a note in the spec about that already |
| 14:17 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i've researched that and sent comments to the list before |
| 14:17 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: CSS or plugins? |
| 14:17 | <zcorpan> | css |
| 14:19 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0043.html |
| 14:20 | <annevk3> | zcorpan, why are you testing that UA? |
| 14:21 | <zcorpan> | annevk3: because hsivonen's doctype article made me curious |
| 14:21 | <zcorpan> | "In 2000 before Netscape 6 was released, Mozilla actually had parser modes that enforced HTML syntax rules." |
| 14:56 | <hsivonen> | do other browsers have this behavior: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLStyleElement.cpp#322 |
| 14:57 | <hsivonen> | ? |
| 15:02 | <annevk3> | IE5 for the Mac |
| 15:02 | <annevk3> | iirc |
| 15:03 | <hsivonen> | I feel I should file a bug *somewhere* about that |
| 15:03 | <hsivonen> | either a mozilla bug about the HTML/XHTML inconsistency, a spec bug about getting the behavior specced or a mozilla bug for removing the behavior |
| 15:03 | <annevk3> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cstyle%20src%3Dstyle%3Ep%20{%20background%3Alime%20}%3C%2Fstyle%3E%3Cp%3Exxxxx |
| 15:03 | <annevk3> | it doesn't even work in HTML |
| 15:04 | <annevk3> | you should probably remove the behavior |
| 15:04 | <annevk3> | (the src attribute does affect HTML) |
| 15:04 | <annevk3> | (it makes the inline styles not apply) |
| 15:06 | <annevk3> | oh wow, that code is seriously buggy |
| 15:06 | <annevk3> | you need a src attribute to trigger the non-inline behavior but you need a href attribute to actually load the style sheet |
| 15:06 | <annevk3> | whoever wrote that was on crack |
| 15:07 | <annevk3> | hsivonen, ^^ |
| 15:21 | <annevk3> | "Daniel Glazman <glazmanānc>" |
| 15:24 | <hsivonen> | annevk3: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=484200 filed. Thanks. |
| 15:29 | <annevk3> | hsivonen, http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/36 is the funny bit |
| 15:31 | <hsivonen> | annevk3: thanks |
| 16:12 | <annevk3> | what's our April 1 joke? |
| 16:12 | <annevk3> | anouncement of Web 5.0? |
| 16:12 | <annevk3> | announcement* |
| 16:13 | <annevk3> | maybe this should be disucssed in our super secret tree house instead so nobody will know |
| 16:17 | <jgraham> | Douglas Crockford appointed new editor of the HTML 5 spec |
| 16:18 | <Dashiva> | RDFa-in-HTML replaced with HTML-in-RDF |
| 16:35 | <Lachy> | annevk3, you'll find out on April 1 |
| 16:39 | <annevk3> | jgraham, Dashiva, that's great |
| 16:39 | <annevk3> | we should do several :) |
| 16:43 | <Philip`> | Fun on Mozilla #developers: bz links to a test case hosted on his site at web.mit.edu/bzbarsky; someone runs it in IE8 and it mysteriously fails to support generated content; and that's because mit.edu (hence all subdomains) is on IE8's Compatibility View List |
| 19:41 | <Philip`> | http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/03/wikirank-zeitgeist-wikipedia.html - "the charts were built without Flash. It's all Javascript using the HTML Canvas element" |
| 20:39 | gsnedders | leaps |
| 20:43 | gsnedders | has 1337 unread emails |
| 20:56 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: You have attained a state of perfection, and should disconnect your email system from the internet to preserve the current situation |
| 20:57 | <Dashiva> | In my younger days, I once mothballed a forum account upon attaining 1337 posts. |
| 21:45 | <jorlow> | whoa....when did structured client side storage get removed from html5...and why? |
| 21:45 | <Hixie> | it has its own spec now |
| 21:45 | <Hixie> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/ |
| 21:46 | <Dashiva> | r2877 - [] (0) Extract Web Sockets, Event Source, and Web Storage out of HTML5. |
| 21:47 | <jorlow> | gotcha |
| 21:47 | <jorlow> | thanks |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | np |
| 21:51 | <annevk3> | http://twitter.com/ilinsky/status/1356530332 sigh |
| 21:57 | Hixie | writes his annual status report |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | other than edits to the spec, anyone remember anything substantial i did over the last year? |
| 21:58 | <Dashiva> | Destroy RDFa? |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | good to know |
| 22:03 | <annevk3> | ate a kitten? |
| 22:04 | <annevk3> | I guess the annotation script was the year before last year |
| 22:06 | <annevk3> | It's funny how ap is noting the same silly stuff about CORS that the Mozilla security folks insisted on |
| 22:20 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: You wrote some stuff, you split some stuff out? |
| 22:22 | <Philip`> | You have striven to increase stakeholder value |
| 22:24 | <Dashiva> | I'm pretty sure I've seen Hixie send emails to groups that aren't public-html too |
| 22:25 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: You exclaimed joy at your cat returning after ten days. |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | 21 days! |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | not ten! |
| 22:25 | <gsnedders> | Oh, sorry. |
| 22:25 | gsnedders | forgot |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | she was gone three weeks! |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | and lost a leg for her efforts |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | ironically of our two cats she is still the one who goes out all the time |
| 22:26 | <gsnedders> | How is she since? |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | she's doing awesome |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | hedral is basically an indoor cat, he barely goes out. she goes out all the time. |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | she's so far brought home a small bird, a crow that was bigger than she was, and a live salamander |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | all while on three legs |
| 22:27 | <gsnedders> | Not bad for 3/4 of a cat |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | btw if anyone is bored, they should help me find out who tgbyhn is on reddit |
| 22:27 | <Dashiva> | Does she complain about lack of accessible prey? |
| 22:27 | <gsnedders> | (Yes, I know there are more to cats than four legs) |
| 22:28 | <Philip`> | tgbyhn must be somebody who uses a QWERTY keyboard |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: i found her once up a tree which was shaped like a Y -- she had one front leg planted on one trunk of the Y, the other front leg planted on the other trunk, and her back leg swinging freely just above the bend in the Y, looking down and meowing in concern |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | it was pretty funny |
| 22:29 | <gsnedders> | Your cats are ridiculous. |
| 22:35 | <Dashiva> | My cat would just run up a fir tree and get stuck |
| 22:35 | <Dashiva> | Then it would run down anyway when the crows started attacking it |
| 22:43 | <jwalden> | meow I did not just say meow |
| 22:43 | gsnedders | ends damowmow after jwalden |
| 22:43 | <gsnedders> | *sends |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: same three legged kitty climbed up our bathrobes up to the top of our bedroom door the other day. once up there she was like "huh. there's nothing here but a smoke alarm. how boring. now how do i get down. uh." |
| 22:50 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Also, how do your cats managed to be thanked for all their useful input in the spec? |
| 22:51 | <gsnedders> | Or rather, for their ideas? |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | same way anyone else does |
| 22:51 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: What did they do that caused the spec to be changeD? |
| 22:51 | <gsnedders> | *changed |
| 22:51 | <gsnedders> | Typed on your laptop, again? |
| 22:53 | <Philip`> | If they directly contributed words to the spec, I hope you got them to sign for the copyright ownership transfer |
| 22:54 | <Dashiva> | Do cats have copyright rights? |
| 22:54 | <Dashiva> | Or is it public domain if they create something? |
| 22:55 | <Philip`> | About scripts: It would be nice if typing the script's URL into your address bar resulted in the same character decoding as when you execute the script, and (for compatibility with current content) in the first situation it has to respect the HTTP charset |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | i think legally speaking i own them |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | so i should be covered copyright-wise |
| 23:02 | <Philip`> | That's slavery! |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | i didn't say it was right! |
| 23:07 | <Dashiva> | He works for a company which uses mass pidgeon slave labor, what did you expect? |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | oh hey, today marks the day where the most recent releases of all major browsers all support Acid2 |
| 23:08 | <Dashiva> | Acid1 too? :) |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | acid1 was supported by everyone before acid2 came out |
| 23:16 | <gsnedders> | But is it still supported? |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 23:55 | <ojan> | Hixie: ping |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | hey |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | ojan: pong |
| 23:56 | <ojan> | Hixie: have you seen this (long) discussion on #webkit re: scrollHeight |
| 23:56 | <ojan> | ? |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | i have not |
| 23:57 | <ojan> | the conclusion is essentially to add a contentHeight/Width (or desiredHeight/Width) to textareas and inputs |
| 23:57 | <ojan> | that would go in html5, right? |
| 23:58 | ojan | is trying to figure out next steps for this discussion |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | it would go in annevk3's CSSOM spec |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | it's probably already there in fact |
| 23:59 | <ojan> | Hixie: even though it's only on textareas? |
| 23:59 | <ojan> | Hixie: this is for the height/width of the content of the textarea/input |
| 23:59 | <annevk3> | Hixie, it's not |