| 00:13 | <Hixie> | i wonder where kevin quoted that from |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | doesn't seem to be in rfc2426 |
| 00:15 | <Philip`> | Hixie: There's this clever new web site known as a "search engine", which lets you answer questions like that |
| 00:16 | <Philip`> | e.g. http://www.imc.org/pdi/vcard-21.txt |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | i tried that |
| 00:17 | <Philip`> | (That looks like a bad conversion of http://www.imagescript.com/atg/resources/vcard-21.doc) |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | before asking :-) |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | apparently the string i used was broken in some way |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 00:19 | <Philip`> | A likely excuse |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | i wonder why that text got lost in the conversion to rfc |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | wtf, vcard contains the lat long position 37.386013;-122.082932 |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | which when i look it up |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | turns out to be within cycling distance of where i'm sitting |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | freaky |
| 01:49 | <franksalim> | that's 0.7 miles from me |
| 02:13 | <karlcow> | [18:07] <othermaciej> Google inventing their own scheme is a demonstration of the main problem with RDF |
| 02:13 | <karlcow> | not at all. The problem here is not RDF but power. Small communities can still invent their own vocabularies and that is good. Google here is creating a new vocabulary AND they have the power to impose it. |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | ok, author conformance criteria for the vCard vocabulary are now defined: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#vcard |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | (it's basically the same as hCard, but defined in detail) |
| 02:22 | <heycam> | "The item with the type vcard has an fn property value consists of a string with exactly one sequence of space characters, and it neither at the immediate start nor the immediate end of the string." |
| 02:22 | <heycam> | missing a word (maybe "occurs") |
| 02:26 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | wow that whole sentence was broken in many ways |
| 07:54 | <hsivonen> | hmm. so even the super-smart googlers make mistakes with Namespaces in their RDFa documentation |
| 08:22 | <hsivonen> | I wonder what kind of havoc will ensue now that Google uses the de facto VML prefix for another purpose |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | "<p><strong>Blast 'Em Up Review</strong></p> |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | " |
| 08:53 | <hsivonen> | It's a semantic heading, because it uses <strong> and <strong> is semantic |
| 09:30 | Philip` | tries posting somewhere that uses reCAPTCHA, and finds that it rejects two attempts even though the image was pretty clear and he's almost entirely certain he typed the words in correctly |
| 09:48 | <Philip`> | http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/05/google-announces-support-for-m.html - xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org " |
| 09:49 | <Philip`> | Honestly, how hard can it be to get a namespace string right? |
| 09:50 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Too hard, it seems :) |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: very, very hard, evidently |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | I have a special program that hooks into accessibility APIs for inputting namespace URIs |
| 09:51 | <hsivonen> | (I don't use it for anything else. really.) |
| 09:51 | <hsivonen> | (Typinator) |
| 09:51 | <jgraham> | (partially because curies doing simple concatenation violates all sorts of assumptions that people have e.g. http://foo/ and http://foo being assumed the same but treated differently) |
| 09:52 | <Philip`> | Looks like Google's updated their help pages to include the trailing "/" now |
| 09:52 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: in fairness, that not a CURIE bug per se. It's an issue that goes back to Namespaces itself |
| 09:53 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Really? Maybe I don't fully understand either then |
| 09:53 | <jgraham> | Well I guess you just mean that a namespace has to be a literal string |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: xmlns='http://foo'; and xmlns='http://foo/'; are distinct namespaces ever since Namespaces |
| 09:53 | Philip` | notes that people may make exactly the same mistakes in mistyping HTML5 microdata itemprop values |
| 09:54 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: not if the vocabulary designer has the good sense not to mint URI-based vocabularies |
| 09:58 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: People mistype non-URI strings too |
| 09:58 | <Philip`> | So, maybe not exactly the same mistakes |
| 09:58 | <Philip`> | but mistakes with the same effects :-) |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | not quite the same effect |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | it'll break the one occurrence |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | not the whole page |
| 09:59 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I see that as an argument to bring microdata into the sphere of validation instead of keeping it as an anything goes zone with possibly 'spurious triples' |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I think it is a usability issue to use strings that people expect to behave in one way (like they do in their browser address bar) in a context where they are treated entirely differently (as a pure literal) |
| 10:08 | <Philip`> | As far as I can tell, the biggest problem with Google's microformats/RDFa support is that they don't provide any way to test it, so it's impossible to tell whether you've got it right or not |
| 10:11 | <Philip`> | (...where "you" is a person who's tried to mark up data on their page) |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | I want to test what happens if |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | 1) I don't declare the prefix v |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | 2) I declare it to another URI |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | 3) I declare the right URI to be bound to another prefix |
| 10:16 | <hsivonen> | Considering that Y! hard-coded some prefixes, I think it's too early to say that Google hasn't done the same |
| 10:24 | <aja> | is there an example html5 vcard anywhere? |
| 10:25 | aja | wants to make sure he's reading microdata stuff correctly |
| 10:28 | <Philip`> | aja: There isn't one yet, as far as I'm aware |
| 10:29 | <jgraham> | aja: Make one :) |
| 10:32 | <aja> | not sure whether/where to use item= or itemprop= |
| 10:35 | <Philip`> | <div item=vcard> and then everything else is itemprop |
| 10:35 | <Philip`> | as far as I can tell |
| 10:36 | <Philip`> | (The spec says "vcard" is a (predefined) type, and everything else is a (predefined) property name) |
| 10:37 | <jgraham> | FWIW I think itemprop is a terrible name |
| 10:37 | <jgraham> | and that seems like one good reason why |
| 10:37 | <aja> | Philip`: that's what i thought, too |
| 10:37 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Got any better suggestions? :-) |
| 10:38 | <jgraham> | Philip`: property ;) |
| 10:38 | <jgraham> | Or key |
| 10:39 | <jgraham> | propertyname is rather long |
| 10:39 | <aja> | was originally property...changed to itemprop shortly thereafter (why? i dunno) |
| 10:40 | <jgraham> | aja: Because property has theoretical conflicts with future versions of RDFa |
| 10:40 | <aja> | makes sense |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | aja: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/387 |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | except s/property/itemprop/ |
| 10:52 | <aja> | gotcha....tks |
| 10:53 | aja | was pondering how to do include-pattern sorta things |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | aja: subject="" is the only way of doing include-like things yet |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | i was thinking of adding <ref/> in a future version |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | but probably not in html5 |
| 10:54 | <aja> | hmmm....interesting |
| 10:58 | <aja> | Hixie: might subject being possibly plural work? |
| 10:59 | <Hixie> | how do you mean? |
| 11:00 | <aja> | eg...any org name up on a site's header....being able to be used in multiple vcards further down the page |
| 11:02 | <aja> | or single vcard being used on multiple calendar enties...that sorta thing |
| 11:04 | <Hixie> | for the latter i think <ref> makes more sense |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | <div item=vcard id=me>...</div> <div item=calendar><meta itemprop=owner object=me>...</div> |
| 11:04 | <Hixie> | (if we eventually add it) |
| 11:04 | <Hixie> | and for the former, well... use <meta>, i guess |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | do we have any other attributes that take space-separated lists of ids? |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | Philip`: that's more or less what <Ref> would be |
| 11:07 | <aja> | only html profile for GRDDL, that i'm aware of, off type of my head.....,.and that's meta now anyway |
| 11:08 | <aja> | n/m...ids |
| 11:11 | Philip` | likes how Vodafone has developed open source Linux software in Python for their devices |
| 11:11 | <Philip`> | (It's not officially supported, but it seems much better than what the other mobile providers have done on Linux (i.e. nothing, as far as I can tell)) |
| 11:13 | jgraham | likes how Vodaphone have developed Linux software for the mobile broadband thing he has |
| 11:13 | <aja> | no Android apps site out there yet? ;) |
| 11:13 | <Philip`> | jgraham: That's the specific software I'm thinking of :-) |
| 11:13 | <Philip`> | Too bad I can't get it to actually work, though |
| 11:13 | Hixie | is starting to get a headache from the iCalendar spec |
| 11:15 | <Hixie> | i like how vcard and icalendar are almost compatible but not quite |
| 11:15 | <Hixie> | e.g. they have subtly different formats for times and dates |
| 11:15 | <jgraham> | Philip`: It seems to both work and not work for me. The whole UI seems to be broken. The actual part that allows me to connect to the internet seems to work |
| 11:15 | <Hixie> | or e.g. how iCalendar requires the PRODID line but vcard doesn't |
| 11:16 | <Philip`> | jgraham: I managed to connect without that software at all, just using normal PPP stuff, so that's alright |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | It's a small miracle that calendaring apps interoperate at all |
| 11:17 | <Philip`> | Do calendaring apps actually interoperate at all? |
| 11:17 | <Hixie> | iCalendar isn't that bad |
| 11:18 | <Hixie> | it's better than many web specs on which we have workable (if not stellar) interop |
| 11:18 | <Hixie> | doesn't define error handling, but nobody did in the 90s |
| 11:18 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Oh well maybe that's what's working for me. I didn't try without the software because I assumed it would fail |
| 11:18 | <aja> | hsivonen: latest tryserver builds still for html5 parser? |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: iCal interoperates with Nokia's S60 calendar app and partially interoperates with Ericsson's T series calendaring app |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | aja: nope |
| 11:19 | <hsivonen> | aja: the latest are for the HTML5 namespace correctness patch |
| 11:20 | <aja> | hsivonen: the one in your blog entry crashed horribly on win/xp.....linux was fine, though |
| 11:20 | <hsivonen> | I should probably pull the old links from the blog entries... |
| 11:27 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: when you say "RDF quad", do you mean lang/datatype as the fourth item in the tuple? |
| 11:27 | <Hixie> | no, i mean provenance |
| 11:28 | <Hixie> | the language and datatype annotations are considered part of the object literal |
| 11:28 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 11:35 | <hsivonen> | what's happening with Origin in the IETF? |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: have you addressed all the recent hgroup feedback in the spec? that is, is the outline algorithm stable now? |
| 11:41 | <Hixie> | i have at least 16 messages on the topic that i haven't dealt with yet |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | ok |
| 11:42 | <Hixie> | btw if the absolute URL algorithm URIfies, that's a bug |
| 11:42 | <Hixie> | are you sure it does? |
| 11:43 | <hsivonen> | I'm not quite sure, but I read it twice and I think it does |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | sounds like a bug |
| 11:43 | hsivonen | goes read it the third time |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | it might un-INDA and leave the path as IRI |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | (which would also be a bug) |
| 11:43 | <Hixie> | it should ToUnicode() imho |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: should script-inserted xml:base be considered in HTML documents? |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | doh. |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | there's a note that says yes |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | there's a bug in Gecko, then |
| 11:45 | <Hixie> | spec says yes |
| 11:45 | <Hixie> | the spec goes to some lengths to make base URI changes not be expensive |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | Gecko checks document HTMLness and returns early |
| 11:46 | <Hixie> | if you look at the source, there are comments in a bunch of places about implications certain rules have wrt base URI changes |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: it seems to me that steps 6. and 7.1. modify the URL in the algorithm for resolving |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | 8., too |
| 11:48 | <hsivonen> | argh. vCard-RDF uses upper-case local names for properties |
| 11:48 | <hsivonen> | worse, it also used mixed case |
| 12:04 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: send mail to the list (and connoly⊙wo), i'm pretty sure we want the absolute url to be an IRI, off-hand. Not sure what the implications are though. |
| 12:07 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I might be missing something trivial but the "resolve a url" algorithm takes the url to be resolved + either an absolute url or an element |
| 12:07 | <jgraham> | But the definiton of "absolute url" just says "if the url resoves onto itself" |
| 12:07 | <jgraham> | which doesn't specify what you are resolving it against |
| 12:08 | <jgraham> | (those bits in quotation marks are not actual quotes) |
| 12:08 | <Hixie> | it should probably say explicitly that it means "if it resolves onto itself for any input base url" or some such |
| 12:08 | <Hixie> | again, danc is the guy to talk to here |
| 12:09 | <Hixie> | he's editing that bit |
| 12:09 | <jgraham> | OK |
| 12:09 | <Hixie> | ok bed time now |
| 12:09 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 12:09 | <jgraham> | goodnight |
| 12:09 | Philip` | wonders if the question about whether 'absolute URL' is a datatype or is a property of a string has been raised or resolved yet |
| 12:10 | jgraham | has been wondering something similar |
| 12:10 | Philip` | is currently too lazy to raise it |
| 13:00 | <Philip`> | Hmm, the images on the Last Week blog don't work too well for me |
| 13:01 | <Philip`> | since they say "You are not able to access this service because Content Control is in place. If you're 18 years or over, you can remove Content Control by contacting your mobile service provider's customer support team." |
| 13:06 | <virtuelv> | Philip`: are you saying that your mobile ISP forces a porn filter on you? |
| 13:06 | <virtuelv> | that sounds australian |
| 13:21 | <Philip`> | virtuelv: Seems like it |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | though it's not really "forces" if I could ask them to remove it |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | but it sounds like they make it awkward to remove |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | and I don't care that much about seeing Mr Last Week's images |
| 13:23 | <jgraham> | Philip`: You are not missing much. Indeed it is like the opposite of missing much |
| 13:25 | <virtuelv> | Philip`: I concur with jgraham's conclusion |
| 13:25 | <virtuelv> | let's just say that he goatse'd the validator icon for the purpose of annoying mpilgrim |
| 16:04 | <Wolfman2000> | ...umm...sort of a silly question here...is there any reason why <table> tags no longer have the summary attribute? |
| 17:04 | <Philip`> | Wolfman2000: It's because of the argument that <table summary> is often used badly, and rarely used well, and is replaceable by alternatives (like <legend> or <p>) that are accessible to users of graphical browsers too |
| 17:05 | <Wolfman2000> | Philip`: ...and what of those that use the handicapped browsers? |
| 17:05 | <Philip`> | Wolfman2000: They can access content in <legend> and <p> too |
| 17:05 | <Wolfman2000> | True. Still...don't tables use <caption>? |
| 17:05 | <Philip`> | Um |
| 17:05 | <Philip`> | I might mean <caption>, not <legend> |
| 17:08 | <webben> | Wolfman2000: i.e. the contention is that an explanation of how a complex table is organized is useful to everybody. |
| 17:09 | <Philip`> | The argument also involves the idea that the better way to improve accessibility is by making it as simple and as automatic as possible, instead of by adding complexity through accessibility-specific hooks for non-graphical browsers |
| 17:10 | <webben> | Wolfman2000: It's notable that using ARIA you could point at the p with aria-describedby. |
| 17:10 | <Philip`> | (because, on average, people use those hooks in incorrect ways (e.g. <img longdesc="some text instead of a URL">) or useless ways (e.g. <table summary="Layout table with 3 columns and 2 rows">), and either harming the user experience or just wasting their own time) |
| 17:11 | <Wolfman2000> | ...that reminds me Philip`. The new way for alt text on images is supposed to be <img>Alt Text</img>, right? |
| 17:11 | <Philip`> | Wolfman2000: No |
| 17:11 | <webben> | Wolfman2000: Still alt= |
| 17:11 | <Philip`> | Wolfman2000: <img> is still an empty element |
| 17:12 | <Philip`> | (except in XHTML2, I guess) |
| 17:12 | <Wolfman2000> | ...must be thinking of XHTML2 |
| 17:12 | <webben> | yep |
| 17:13 | <Philip`> | HTML parsers won't understand <img>...</img>, and can't be changed to understand it without breaking existing pages |
| 17:14 | Philip` | notes that some people argue that the benefits of <table summary> are high and the costs are low and therefore it's worth keeping it in HTML5 |
| 17:17 | <Philip`> | (Also some people seem to focus on the ability to make a page accessible, rather than on the likelihood of a random page written by an average person being made slightly more accessible) |
| 17:17 | <Wolfman2000> | I admit I'm more on the "accessible" side |
| 17:18 | <Philip`> | Nobody is on the anti-accessible side :-) |
| 17:21 | <Wolfman2000> | Philip`: at times I question that. |
| 18:21 | gsnedders | is wondering how to sanely mark up drama |
| 18:24 | <Philip`> | Is this like Shakespearean drama or emo drama? |
| 18:24 | <gsnedders> | Shakespearean |
| 18:25 | <gsnedders> | Philo: "And is become the bellows and the fan/To cool a gypsy's lust." (I.1.9–10) |
| 18:25 | <gsnedders> | Problem: marking that up sanely, and getting sane presentation of that. |
| 18:25 | <gsnedders> | However, my exam is on Friday so I don't really have time to care. |
| 18:31 | <Philip`> | Hmm, Firefox 2 moves <link> and <meta> into <head>; Firefox 3 only moves <meta> |
| 18:48 | <gsnedders> | For some reason my spell-checker doesn't know these Shakespearean names. |
| 21:12 | jgraham | discovers he has accidnetially caused a very odd spec discussion on a mailing list he wasn't aware of |
| 21:19 | Philip` | demands details |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | jgraham: uri? |
| 21:27 | <jgraham> | Philip`: It turns out that there is a es5-discuss mailing list in addition to the es-discuss mailing list I knew about |
| 21:28 | <jgraham> | After reorting a possible compatibility issue on es-discuss a thread started on es5-discuss which ends with Mark Miller and Douglas Crockford suggesting removing string indexing from ecmascript 5 |
| 21:29 | <jgraham> | As an alternative to introducing a single compatibiliy-preserving type check |
| 21:29 | <Philip`> | They should go the whole hog and remove strings entirely |
| 21:29 | <inimino> | there is or has been in the past es-discuss, es3x-discuss, es4-discuss, and es5-discuss |
| 21:30 | <inimino> | (at least) |
| 21:30 | <jgraham> | inimino: And people complain about whatwg vs public-html |
| 21:30 | <jgraham> | At least those two have different participati |
| 21:30 | <jgraham> | on requirements |
| 21:32 | <jgraham> | Hixie: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es5-discuss/2009-May/002490.html |
| 21:33 | <Hixie> | thx |
| 22:03 | jgraham | wonders if wikipedia is supposed to be used as software api documentation |
| 23:10 | jgraham | has a certianly-broken implementation of N3 output now |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/1igm05tt25ip8kg10hureru72agmo2n2c9⊙hbhd has the most references of any e-mail i've ever seen in w3c space |
| 23:26 | <jgraham> | That is rather impressive |
| 23:38 | Philip` | gets the feeling that Björn has much more fun with the formatting of his emails than with their content |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | ...why does the iCalendar example for RESOURCE imply that the meeting is going to need a racoon?! |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | what kind of weird-ass meeting were the iCalendar guys going to?! |
| 23:42 | <Philip`> | Perhaps it was a meeting to discuss plans to overthrow Cyril Sneer |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | can someone tell me if http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2445.txt says whether the STATUS line can be included more than once per vevent? |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | it looks like it allows it |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | but i may be missing some key line somewhere that says that the default is no duplicates? |
| 23:51 | <Dashiva> | A French raccoon to boot... |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | i'm thinking the word has a double meaning but if it does i don't know it |
| 23:52 | <Dashiva> | Maybe karlcow knows |