| 00:03 | <annevk5> | I'm not quite sure I follow the logic in that e-mail. A draft cannot change because of lack of implementations because it did not change as a result of receiving comments? |
| 00:06 | <zcorpan> | annevk5: the email says there were implementations |
| 00:11 | <othermaciej_> | annevk5: the indirection isn't quite the same |
| 00:11 | <othermaciej> | in a typical use of namespaces, you see "foo:bar", but that really means the ordered pair {http://something.foo.com/FooML, bar} |
| 00:11 | <othermaciej> | and the foo has no meaning |
| 00:11 | <annevk5> | The more I read that e-mail the less I get it. Oh well. |
| 00:12 | <othermaciej> | but binding CSS to an element with class="foo", there is no "more real" meaning than foo, and you won't be misled by looking for literal foo |
| 00:12 | <othermaciej> | for example, if you have a rule foo { color: green; } it's an unlikely mistake to try to find all green text by looking for everything with class foo in any document |
| 00:14 | <annevk5> | I agree that the CSS comparison does not quite work. |
| 00:31 | <othermaciej> | I think the difference is in CSS, you have an indirection to binding style, whereas XML namespaces introduce indirection to binding meaning |
| 01:23 | <annevk5> | http://gawker.com/5258524/ o_O |
| 01:26 | <Hixie> | i wonder why some of the classificatiosn are censored |
| 02:13 | <annevk5> | fwiw, application/microdata+json will probably not fly with the IETF |
| 02:14 | <annevk5> | though I could be mistaken I think s/+/-/ will be easier |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | i'm just trying to be consistent with +xml |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | i'm happy to change it to whatever makes them happy |
| 02:30 | <annevk5> | should subject="" be allowed to allow explicit assocation with the top-level microdata items? |
| 02:30 | <annevk5> | (it already works that way in user agents) |
| 02:30 | <Hixie> | say what? |
| 02:31 | <annevk5> | e.g. <span item> <span subject itemprop=name>X</span> </span> |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | subject="" prevents the element from ever having a corresponding item |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | (subject="" literally empty, i mean) |
| 02:34 | <annevk5> | "Otherwise, there is no corresponding item." ... "The list of elements that create items but do not themselves have a corresponding item forms the list of top-level microdata items." |
| 02:35 | <annevk5> | (what I was trying to point out was that subject="" is currently disallowed) |
| 07:21 | <hsivonen> | roc: the reftest failures don't suggest any lack of clue--just lack of cross-browser testing |
| 07:21 | <hsivonen> | roc: that is, test is for behavior x but also depends on behavior y where y varies among Gecko and IE or Gecko and WebKit |
| 07:22 | <hsivonen> | where behavior y is obscure and counter-intuitive |
| 07:47 | <Hixie> | annevk5: oh, i see what you're saying |
| 07:48 | <Hixie> | annevk5: i don't really think we should allow that, in fact it's probably better just to call out empty subject="" as an error |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | is there a way to test the precedence of the MS-maintained IE8 mode blacklist without being able to serve arbitrary content at any of the blacklisted domain? |
| 10:57 | <hsivonen> | that is, is there a way to edit the blacklist locally? |
| 10:57 | <hsivonen> | (an easy way that is) |
| 10:58 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if evaluating a bookmarklet when a given site has loaded inherits its blacklist properties |
| 10:58 | <othermaciej> | I bet it would |
| 10:59 | <othermaciej> | particularly if you use innerHTML to inject content into the site |
| 10:59 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: innerHTML is no good, because the meta thingy works only if the parser sees it before a script has executed on the page |
| 11:00 | <othermaciej> | document.write perhaps? |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | document.write might work |
| 11:00 | <othermaciej> | or inject an iframe |
| 11:00 | <othermaciej> | supposedly subframes inherit the blacklist state of the top level document |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | kurafire claims that frames inherit the IE8/EmulateIE7 setting from parent |
| 11:00 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Does it need to be a test that wworks online? Can't you just use /etc/hosts to point the domain at a site of your choice? |
| 11:01 | <jgraham> | Or does the balcklist not work like that? |
| 11:01 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: good point |
| 11:01 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: thanks |
| 11:05 | <Philip`> | You could modify the blacklist file in a hex editor |
| 11:05 | <Philip`> | (Probably won't work, though) |
| 11:11 | <hsivonen> | I'm appalled at the shady sites that doing a live search for windows hosts file turns up in IE8 |
| 11:11 | <hsivonen> | I wouldn't get junk like that searching for Linux or Mac things |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | Hmm, the recent update to the IE8 blacklist seems to have changed very little |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | Removed: ca.gov daft.ie nexopia.com onet.pl picnik.com pricegrabber.com rightmove.co.uk yandex.ru |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | Added: sat.gob.mx |
| 11:13 | <hsivonen> | google search is much more useful |
| 11:13 | <Philip`> | (Those are the changes from a couple of weeks ago, vs the initial release) |
| 11:21 | <hsivonen> | OK. I had the MS blacklist in the wrong place in my flowchart |
| 11:22 | <hsivonen> | umm. no, I didn't |
| 11:22 | <hsivonen> | hmm. either I have tested wrong, kurafire has tested wrong, or I have misunderstood what he said |
| 11:23 | <Philip`> | Or it's non-deterministic |
| 11:23 | <jgraham> | Or some combination of the above |
| 11:30 | <hsivonen> | whee! IE=9.9 and IE=99 are indeed different |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | oops. my test script is wrong for 9.9 |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | 9.9 and 99 are indeed the same |
| 12:27 | <hsivonen> | it turns out that the IE8 mode sniffing is even more complex than I previously thought |
| 12:27 | <hsivonen> | it takes into account the compatibility modeness of the frame parent |
| 12:28 | <hsivonen> | the parent can be in IE5 mode and the parent still remembers how it got to the IE5 mode |
| 12:28 | <Rik|work> | hsivonen: http://farukat.es/journal/2009/05/245-ie8-and-the-x-ua-compatible-situation |
| 12:28 | <hsivonen> | Rik|work: yes, that's what inspired me to test |
| 12:29 | <hsivonen> | Rik|work: my testing shows that X-UA-Compatible still allows you to override the mode from frame parent |
| 12:29 | <hsivonen> | for iframes at least |
| 12:30 | <Rik|work> | i work in a company that got in the compatibility list, we never received the mail to inform us |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | whew. I've done my share of community service today and have revised http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/ and linked flowcharts |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | (several times until I got them right. I think) |
| 13:02 | <Philip`> | That is a little bit crazy |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: what's crazy? revising or IE's behavior? |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | that's two hours of my life I'll never get back |
| 13:05 | <Philip`> | IE's behaviour |
| 13:05 | <Philip`> | and hence the flowcharts |
| 13:05 | <Philip`> | Two hours isn't much when you consider how much time you waste sleeping :-) |
| 13:15 | <annevk5> | sleeping is not actually wasting time though |
| 13:16 | <jgraham> | Indeed sleeping can often be more enjoyable than the rest of the day was :) |
| 13:32 | hsivonen | found a reftest that actually tests Gecko-specific weirdness: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/content/html/document/reftests/bug448564-2_malformed.html |
| 13:49 | <annevk5> | seems that http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2009/05/19/opera-mama-a-sneak-peek-at-headings-images-and-summary confirms that summary="" indeed sucks on the Web |
| 13:52 | <annevk5> | https://twitter.com/robburns1/status/1809470040 "the problem is that the Microsoft/Opera cartel seeks to use HTML5 & WhatWG to undermine the web regardless of W3C endorsement" |
| 13:53 | <annevk5> | I guess that goes nicely with the vast Apple/Google conspiracy (they even have shared board members under investigation!!) |
| 13:55 | <Philip`> | I didn't think Microsoft and Opera were getting along well enough to join a cartel with each other, what with the lawsuits and suchlike |
| 13:55 | <Dashiva> | It's a typo, he meant Opera/Google |
| 13:56 | <Philip`> | Isn't Mozilla in on this? |
| 13:56 | <Dashiva> | Google owns Mozilla, duh |
| 13:58 | <Philip`> | I think Google should buy Opera |
| 13:58 | <Philip`> | just to complete the set |
| 13:58 | <Philip`> | Well, not complete, but make more complete than it would otherwise be |
| 13:58 | <Philip`> | It'd be great if they were paying for development of three competing browsers |
| 14:07 | <annevk5> | whoa, Google and Safari get the encoding right for http://thebjoernhoehrmannproject.org/ -- nice |
| 14:13 | <Philip`> | Why wouldn't they get it right? |
| 14:14 | <roc> | if there's a conspiracy, I don't want to be left out |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | /invite roc #whatwg-secret-treehouse |
| 14:17 | <Philip`> | Whoops |
| 14:17 | <annevk5> | Philip`, they used the text/html algorithm |
| 16:33 | <Philip`> | http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/05/the-assertions-in-html-5.html |
| 16:39 | <annevk5> | Seems he somewhat misunderstood how things came to be :) |
| 16:41 | <Philip`> | I'm not sure that what he says is wrong |
| 16:42 | <Philip`> | because the constraints in H:TML are largely based on RELAX NG and (maybe?) Schematron implementations |
| 16:42 | <Philip`> | which is what he seems to say |
| 16:43 | <annevk5> | Not really: "(I don't know whether the designers of HTML limited themselves to Schematron assertions or to the subset in drafts of XSD 1.1.)" |
| 16:44 | <jgraham> | Philip`: But by basing his analysis on those parts of H:TML that have been extracted from schema in validator.nu, he implicitly misses anything that could not be written as a schema constraint |
| 16:45 | <jgraham> | (for example the constraint on table cells) |
| 16:46 | <Philip`> | annevk5: Oh, I missed that bit |
| 16:46 | <jgraham> | I guess it is hard to say his conclusions are wrong since the article just ends with no conclusions |
| 16:47 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Seems like a useul thing to point out in a comment :-) |
| 17:49 | <gsnedders> | What does (a,b)|c mean? the (a.b) is the greatest common divisor, but what about the |? |
| 17:51 | <gsnedders> | divisibility. |
| 18:02 | <annevk5> | Hmm, for cases such as http://www.w3.org/mid/65D2E21C-44E4-4E0B-B7D3-C635A8854A7D⊙ac it seems better to go with HTML5 directly |
| 18:03 | <annevk5> | A lot less markup, far easier for authors, and since neither solution has much adoption yet it doesn't really matter it seems. |
| 18:37 | gsnedders | should just give up all hope of ever managing to do any sort of maths related subject, seeming he can't do maths |
| 18:37 | <gsnedders> | Oh well, I guess Ill do English |
| 18:39 | <Philip`> | Maths is just like English, but with numbers |
| 18:42 | <inimino> | and with fewer right answers |
| 18:48 | <jgraham> | I guess maths actually has more right answers since there must be a countably infinite number of possible english essays but one could consruct a maths question with a uncountably infinite number of right answers |
| 18:49 | <inimino> | fewer right answers as a percentage of answers that are likely to be given, to questions that are likely to be asked |
| 18:50 | <inimino> | see, this is like English, where you have to interpret ;-) |
| 18:52 | <jgraham> | I'm not really sure how one takes percentages of infinite quantities |
| 18:53 | <inimino> | both the set of questions likely to be asked and answers likely to be given are finite sets |
| 18:54 | <inimino> | (though I guess "Lebesgue measure" might also be a right answer to that question) |
| 18:54 | <jgraham> | I have mo idea how you determined that. It seems that there are an infinite number of possible maths questions at least |
| 18:55 | <jgraham> | I guess for english questions there is a limit imposed by length |
| 18:55 | <inimino> | but surely not all of them are infinetely likely to be asked |
| 18:55 | <inimino> | erm |
| 18:55 | <inimino> | s/infinetely/equally/ |
| 18:56 | <inimino> | for any expressible question or answer in maths there is just as hard a limit on length |
| 18:57 | <jgraham> | That seems like a more reasonable objection |
| 18:58 | <inimino> | an implication is that answers or questions that can't be expressed in the expected lifetime of the universe are somewhat less likely to be given or asked |
| 19:00 | <jgraham> | I wonder if one can still represent an infinite number of mathematical problems using some notation that allows the expression of an infinite number of possiblities in finite space |
| 19:00 | <jgraham> | I'm not quite sure that would work though |
| 19:01 | <inimino> | sounds hard |
| 19:54 | <hsivonen> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009May/0056.html |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders> | hmm… I don't get what PCRE is doig… |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders> | *doing |
| 22:06 | <gsnedders> | /\x{D800}/u never matches |
| 22:06 | <gsnedders> | http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=47526 |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | these conspiracy theories are very confusing |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | who am i supposed to be getting my bribe from this month again? |
| 22:19 | <gsnedders> | Hmm, html5lib has kinda died since the end of March |
| 22:43 | <gsnedders> | hmm, PHP 5.3-RC3-dev takes 0.58s less than 5.2.9 to tokenize the spec |
| 22:43 | <gsnedders> | (taking it down to 6.37s) |
| 22:53 | gsnedders | gawps at PHP's memory usage when storing arrays |
| 22:53 | <gsnedders> | We're talking ~70 bytes of overhead per array value |
| 22:54 | <gsnedders> | Which with what I'm doing is 25 times what storing the raw value would |
| 22:54 | <gsnedders> | *sighs* |
| 22:54 | Philip` | wonders how gsnedders is storing raw values that are 2.8 bits each |
| 22:54 | <Philip`> | *bytes |
| 22:54 | gsnedders | notes he wasn't being exact |
| 23:11 | <annevk5> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2009May/0022.html is this bit of HTML5 so intuitive or did he actually look into it? |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | annevk5: hah, awesome |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | annevk5: you should let him know html5 already does that :-) |
| 23:41 | <annevk5> | Hixie, I'm not on that list anymore |
| 23:42 | <annevk5> | Hixie, out of curiosity, do you keep some notes somewhere other than /issues/ on what you're planning to work / working on? |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | i have my company-internal okr list which says what i plan to have done by the end of the quarter |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | but basically i just do what people want me to do |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | so if you have something you need doing, let mek now |
| 23:43 | <Hixie> | and i'll get to it after microdata |
| 23:47 | <annevk5> | what's left for microdata? the remaining comments? |
| 23:48 | <Philip`> | Hmm... Microdata can be used to represent tree-shaped data structures |
| 23:48 | <Philip`> | HTML documents are tree-shaped data structures |
| 23:49 | <Philip`> | Therefore, I think we should have a way to encode HTML documents inside microdata attributes |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | annevk5: quite a few use cases not yet addressed |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | still got lots of mail to go through |
| 23:50 | <Philip`> | <div item=p><meta itemprop=style content=background:yellow></div> etc |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | well, not mail, but use cases |