| 00:12 | <gmiernicki> | has anyone thought about updating <blink> ? |
| 00:12 | <gmiernicki> | i think that tag needs some work |
| 00:21 | <ezyang> | I'm looking at an old implementation of tree building, and I see that it's divided into "phases". Was this old vocabulary that was removed from the spec later? |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:23 | <ezyang> | I wonder how harmless it is. |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | the spec has changed quite a bit since then |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | in ways that matter |
| 00:24 | <ezyang> | Ok. |
| 00:24 | <annevk2> | you want to review all the old code, but you can probably get away with reusing parts of it |
| 00:24 | <ezyang> | This probably explains why less than a fourth of the tests are passing :-) |
| 00:30 | <annevk2> | http://twitter.com/masinter/statuses/1929353498 ? |
| 00:33 | <annevk2> | someone has been sending off-topic emails or something? |
| 00:34 | annevk2 | wonders if a certain Dean E has been sending emails |
| 00:35 | <annevk2> | (certainly seemed like Shelley got one from him) |
| 00:40 | <Hixie> | i sent him mail saying that calling the last 5 years of my technical life "not a technical specification" was personally offensive |
| 00:40 | <Hixie> | dunno about the other two! |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | (he didn't seem to understand why i was offended, which is a little disconcerting, but oh well) |
| 00:45 | <ezyang> | "after after frameset" haha |
| 00:45 | <Hixie> | yeah don't look too closely at the terminology in the html5 spec |
| 00:46 | <Hixie> | sometimes i backed myself into a corner and the results are embarassing :-) |
| 00:46 | <Hixie> | that's one example :-) |
| 07:05 | <MikeSmith> | does the Khronos Group not provide public access to their WG/mailing-list discussions? |
| 07:06 | <MikeSmith> | I'm trying to find an info page and/or mailing list for the‘Accelerated 3D on Web’group that was announced last month |
| 07:08 | <othermaciej> | I don't think they do |
| 07:08 | <othermaciej> | this is one reason I am puzzled that Mozilla chose it as the venue for Canvas 3D |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | I guess going to Khronos makes sense if it's intended to be a spec for exposing OpenGL to javascript |
| 07:11 | <othermaciej> | but the hard part is the Web platform aspect (how to make the API safe without being slow) |
| 07:11 | <othermaciej> | not the 3D aspect |
| 07:11 | <othermaciej> | and Khronos is poor on process openness afaik |
| 07:14 | <MikeSmith> | hmm |
| 07:14 | <MikeSmith> | well, that's going to make things interesting |
| 07:19 | <othermaciej> | whatwg IRC gets results: http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2009/05/_then_they_call_you_names.html |
| 07:19 | <MikeSmith> | "How Much Does it Cost to Get Involved?" section of http://www.khronos.org/members/ says "Free for Developers" |
| 07:19 | <MikeSmith> | but that page doesn't define what a "developer" is |
| 07:20 | <othermaciej> | maybe you just have to sign up then |
| 07:22 | <MikeSmith> | "A "troll" is someone who uses the anonymity possible on the Internet to harass others -- it is not someone who takes named responsibility for asking reasonable questions." |
| 07:24 | <annevk42> | what does "public-yet-pragmatically-inaccessible" mean? |
| 07:25 | <othermaciej> | that means this is a smoke-filled room |
| 07:25 | <othermaciej> | even though it is open to the public and logged on the Web |
| 07:25 | <annevk42> | I see |
| 07:27 | <annevk42> | wtf was has difficult question? |
| 07:27 | <annevk42> | s/has/his/ |
| 07:28 | <othermaciej> | he's just asking the hard question of why the Web platform should support things like video or animation when Flash already does it fine |
| 07:28 | <othermaciej> | aren't we just fragmenting the Web by providing a way to do those things without Flash? |
| 07:28 | <othermaciej> | and aren't we polluting the hypertext purity of HTML by trying to bend it to the purpose of Rich Internet Applications? |
| 07:28 | <othermaciej> | shouldn't Web apps written using the Open Web platform remain poor? |
| 07:29 | <othermaciej> | why the class warfare? why would they want to be rich? |
| 07:29 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 07:29 | <sayrer> | there are some fair points there |
| 07:30 | <othermaciej> | sure, but |
| 07:30 | <othermaciej> | no matter what difficult questions he asks, the answer always seems to be the same: not to add functionality to HTML and to just use Flash instead |
| 07:31 | <sayrer> | well ok, but that bias is pretty obvious |
| 07:31 | <MikeSmith> | I wish he would just get back to pure unadultered trolling, instead of I-am-not-trolling |
| 07:32 | <sayrer> | for example, there are many Mozilla community members who don't see h264 video elements as a meaningful advance over flash movies |
| 07:32 | <sayrer> | but the interoperability story is worse, on balance |
| 07:32 | <sayrer> | although you do get on some devices where flash isn't present |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | who cares about those device? |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | devices |
| 07:33 | <othermaciej> | a surprising number of people care about devices such as the iPhone |
| 07:33 | <othermaciej> | I think the potential advance of <video> is twofold: |
| 07:33 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: yeah, I was being facetious |
| 07:34 | <MikeSmith> | I was channeling |
| 07:34 | <sayrer> | it's not a nice situation, morally. many handset makers are members of the mpeg consortium |
| 07:35 | <othermaciej> | (1) as to openness, I think <video> + H.264 is an improvement, because a patent-encumbered open standard is still an open standard; and there is the opportunity for expiration of certain key patents to help matters further |
| 07:35 | <sayrer> | open standards should be distributable by open source projects |
| 07:35 | <sayrer> | h.264 fails that test |
| 07:37 | <othermaciej> | (2) I think one of the most interesting aspects is the technology story, that video can be freely mixed with your other content and doesn't have to be in a special multimedia box |
| 07:37 | <sayrer> | yes, that is a theoretical advantage |
| 07:37 | <othermaciej> | after all, much of programming today is about connecting things together, not raw capabilities |
| 07:37 | <sayrer> | but so far the interoperability is pretty bad |
| 07:37 | <Philip`> | Browsers should improve their plugin integration so that Flash doesn't have to be in a special plugin box |
| 07:39 | <othermaciej> | I am more inclined at present to put Flash in a hermetically sealed box |
| 07:39 | <othermaciej> | so that it can stop crashing the browser so much |
| 07:39 | <sayrer> | yeah... like a different process |
| 07:44 | <annevk42> | oh look, the mainframe argument came back |
| 07:46 | <othermaciej> | everything has a constituency |
| 07:51 | <jgraham> | re: http://twitter.com/masinter/statuses/1929353498 it may be me that is being mocked for calling him impolite (asserting that something was useless because he personally couldn't think of the uses) |
| 07:57 | <hsivonen> | MPEG-4 as an "open standard" is persuasive against single-vendor ad hoc formats but still not good enough, because it is patent-encumbered |
| 07:57 | <othermaciej> | I don't think calling someone impolite is an ad hominem argument |
| 07:57 | <othermaciej> | unless you say that because they are impolite, the position they hold must be wrong |
| 08:06 | heycam | wonders why sam's latest mail is sent in UTF-7 and says "application/xhtml왩" instead of "application/xhtml+xml" |
| 08:09 | <annevk42> | heycam, maybe because your mail client sucks? wfm |
| 08:09 | <heycam> | could be |
| 08:10 | <Philip`> | I see "+xml" in the raw message, but I guess that gets decoded funny as UTF-7 |
| 08:10 | <heycam> | yeah |
| 08:11 | <Philip`> | In Thunderbird I get 왩 |
| 08:11 | <heycam> | i'm using mutt |
| 08:11 | <heycam> | (and as the author says, all mail clients suck...) |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | heycam: yeah, I get the 왩 in mutt too |
| 08:11 | <heycam> | i guess thunderbird encoded incorrectly (since tb is what sam used it seems) |
| 08:12 | <othermaciej> | is he sending UTF-7 as a way to make a subtle point about recent list discussion? |
| 08:14 | <heycam> | heh that was my first thought, but then i couldn't work out what that point would be |
| 08:17 | <Philip`> | He was replying to a message that was also UTF-7, so I'd guess his mail client copied that by default |
| 08:20 | <hsivonen> | URL to UTF-7 email? |
| 08:20 | <heycam> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0469.html |
| 08:20 | <hsivonen> | heycam: thanks |
| 08:20 | <heycam> | it interestingly caused the list archive to omit the links to senders/receivers |
| 08:22 | <heycam> | oh not omitted, just included verbatim as invalid html (<span id="to"><dfn>To</dfn>: Manu Sporny <msporny⊙dc></span>) |
| 08:48 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: it seems you should have adopted the "HTML won" or "HTML is winning" line in the WaSP interview without talking about "4" |
| 08:50 | <annevk42> | lol yeah; I'm still wondering what Leif is trying to proof, but it sure is funny |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | I guess it really is inconsistent to say that HTML 4 is winning while at the same time holding the line that the implemented HTML and HTML 4 are very distinct |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | so HTML as she are spoke is winning hands down |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | not worth a thread, though |
| 08:54 | <annevk42> | it doesn't seem worth it to have an argument about that |
| 08:57 | <annevk42> | oh jd/adobe's archives are fun: http://blogs.adobe.com/jd/2008/08/lets_use_microsoft_runtimes.html |
| 08:59 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, we disabled UTF-7 outside email I believe |
| 09:00 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, UTF-7 and UTF-32 should no longer work in the latest Opera |
| 09:00 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: excellent |
| 09:00 | <hsivonen> | I've lost track of what happened to the UTF-7 disablement effort in Gecko |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: "When asked why, the most common response is something along the lines of "Because Adobe might do something bad someday." (At this point I want to ask, "What, like they did with PostScript or PDF?" ;-)" is interesting |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: because one might argue Adobe started morphing PDF in undesirable ways after PDF 1.4 |
| 09:05 | <annevk42> | they killed FlashPaper |
| 09:05 | <hsivonen> | I didn't like the effort to turn Adobe Reader into an enterprise client platform before Adobe bought Macromedia |
| 09:06 | <annevk42> | they charge for Flash to make it work on devices as far as I know and Flash is not available everywhere |
| 09:06 | <hsivonen> | Adobe Intelligent Document platform it was called, IIRC |
| 09:07 | <annevk42> | does Gecko have its own Unicode and character encoding converter implementation? |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: yes |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: Opera has, too, right? |
| 09:09 | <annevk42> | afaik |
| 09:09 | <annevk42> | I think Safari relies on Mac OS libraries |
| 09:09 | <annevk42> | I wonder what Chrome is doing |
| 09:11 | <hsivonen> | I wouldn't be surprised if Chrome shipped ICU |
| 09:11 | <hsivonen> | Safari uses system ICU |
| 09:14 | <annevk42> | seems that Chrome uses ICU |
| 09:15 | <annevk42> | hmm, is it normal for browsers to be bundled with FFmpeg? |
| 09:15 | <annevk42> | -> http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/deps/third_party/ |
| 09:17 | <MikeSmith> | what do they use xulrunner for? |
| 09:20 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: the check-in message is interesting: http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/deps/third_party/xulrunner-sdk/?view=log |
| 09:20 | <othermaciej> | SafariWin ships ICU |
| 09:20 | <annevk42> | I'm now getting "An Exception Has Occurred" |
| 09:21 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: It'll be interesting to see what they do with ffmpeg and how they navigate the patent/(L)GPL situation |
| 09:22 | <annevk42> | http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/deps/third_party/xulrunner-sdk/win/README.google hmm |
| 09:22 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, yeah |
| 09:28 | <othermaciej> | Chrome includes the xulrunner SDK? |
| 09:29 | <annevk42> | I don't think everything in that directory is included in Chromium |
| 09:43 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: <td><dfn title="attr-marquee-behavior-alternate">scroll</dfn> - s/scroll/alternate/ |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: why are marquee's event handler attributes just on <marquee> while the other event handler attributes are global? |
| 09:50 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: "title="dom-marquee-trueSpeed"><code>trueSpeed</code></dfn>, DOM" - drop the comma |
| 09:51 | <annevk42> | zcorpan_, so they onlly pollute marquee iirc |
| 09:54 | <zcorpan_> | annevk2: why do we want to pollute everything with <video>-specific event handler attributes, then? |
| 10:00 | <annevk42> | so you can listen to video events on parent elements using event handlers |
| 10:00 | <annevk42> | I guess |
| 10:03 | <zcorpan_> | annevk2: but they don't bubble |
| 10:04 | <annevk42> | then I don't know |
| 10:04 | <Dashiva> | Capture? |
| 10:04 | <annevk42> | maybe event handlers are typically put on HTMLElement? |
| 10:04 | <annevk42> | Dashiva, event handlers can't capture |
| 10:05 | <Dashiva> | Oh, the attribute handlers? My bad. |
| 10:06 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: "(Top to Button)" - typo |
| 10:23 | <Dashiva> | "There is no universal rule that will always work which would allow you to differentiate CURIEs from URIs" |
| 10:24 | <Dashiva> | I thought that was what safe CURIEs were for? <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0426.html>; |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: seems like an unfortunate design |
| 10:33 | <MikeSmith> | would be nice to have some kind of general response available to the "we already spent month/years working on this specification" |
| 10:33 | <MikeSmith> | for the case where the "we" didn't include actual UA implementors |
| 10:34 | <MikeSmith> | or at least a way that I could get a nickel for every time somebody said that |
| 10:34 | <Dashiva> | Or a beer? |
| 10:34 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 10:34 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, even better |
| 10:34 | <MikeSmith> | or a chu-hai |
| 10:34 | <Dashiva> | You might be too drunk to work most days, though |
| 10:35 | <MikeSmith> | we've crossed that bridge already |
| 10:35 | <MikeSmith> | the too-drunk-to-work bridge |
| 10:37 | jgraham | is surprised MikeSmith made it all the way acroos the bridge rather than haphazardly stumbling off the edge into the water |
| 10:37 | <annevk42> | MikeSmith, we do, "Sorry, not part of the Web. Try again." |
| 10:37 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: how about some less divisive rethoric? |
| 10:45 | <jgraham> | annevk42: I'm not sure that is an answer to the same question. I mean RDFa could be "part of the web" in some sense but that doesn't mean it's a good idea |
| 10:46 | <annevk42> | "Sorry, won't work on the Web. Try again." |
| 10:47 | <jgraham> | As hsivonen said it's nice to be more diplomatic than that when you tell people their baby is ugly. Although it often doesn't seem to help |
| 10:47 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: I guess the argument is that we should make decisions based on future costs, not on past costs |
| 10:48 | <annevk42> | jgraham, I think hsivonen was sarcastic |
| 10:48 | <annevk42> | problem with RDFa is that it's made for XHTML which is not really there nor here |
| 10:49 | <annevk42> | the retrofitting it for HTML process is interesting though |
| 10:50 | <Dashiva> | Leif doesn't seem to get the whole cowpath thing... |
| 10:51 | <jgraham> | annevk42: Maybe. IMHO the problem with RDFa is rather that it is too hard to use in any serialization. It doesn't really meet at least the last three criterion in http://standblog.org/blog/post/2009/05/20/About-Generativity |
| 10:51 | <jgraham> | But meeting all those criterion is pretty much essential to be a success on the web scale |
| 10:52 | <annevk42> | I was just commenting on it not even working |
| 10:53 | <Philip`> | If it's going to fail on the web scale, it'd be nice to minimise the harm that it causes while failing |
| 10:54 | <jgraham> | annevk42: Right but that is a technical problem which can (in principle) be solved. Focusing on the soluble problem whilst ignoring the hard, systemic issues seems like the wrong approach |
| 10:55 | <Philip`> | (e.g. by trying to ensure it's defined in a way that fits sensibly within HTML-processor architectures, so that it won't cause those architectures to be changed to accommodate it) |
| 11:01 | <Philip`> | (...and then it can compete with other approaches to data markup, and can win or lose based on the inherent merits of its design rather than on the bugginess/non-standardisation of implementations) |
| 11:02 | <Dashiva> | RDFa qualifies as QNames in content, right? |
| 11:04 | <jgraham> | Philip`: I am not disagreeing with the reasonableness of what your are doing, however I don't think it is the most important issue. I get the impression that some people thing that RDFa-in-HTML is a series of soluble technical challenges which, when solved, can pave the way to it being anointed the One True microdata solution. |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: You probably shouldn't call them that, because people will disagree and say they're not QNames |
| 11:04 | <Dashiva> | But it's the same problem? |
| 11:04 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Yes |
| 11:05 | <Dashiva> | I was wondering if it had fallen into obscurity because of all the other noise around RDFa, or if it's not considered an issue anymore |
| 11:05 | <Dashiva> | E.g. @prefix would still have this issue |
| 11:06 | <Philip`> | That's an issue to do with the inherent merits of RDFa's design, rather than being something that will cause a particular mess in text/html, so I don't care much about that problem now |
| 11:06 | <Dashiva> | Fair enough |
| 11:07 | <Philip`> | (xmlns:* will cause ugliness in HTML-to-XHTML serialisers and namespace-aware document models etc, whereas @prefix will just make RDFa fragile and hard to use) |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: I wasn't being sarcastic |
| 11:18 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yeah, RDFa has deeper issues than CURIEs, but it's alarming that fixing even the surface issues is so controversial |
| 11:19 | <annevk42> | hsivonen, oh, I thought since you're using those exact words... |
| 11:19 | <annevk42> | I was sarcastic, though, in case that was unclear |
| 11:20 | <Philip`> | At least people seem to mostly agree that the surface issues need to be fixed, and don't just discard it as being invalid markup and therefore irrelevant |
| 11:20 | <hsivonen> | annevk42: I was referring to shepazu's criticism, though |
| 12:44 | <Philip`> | http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/ttldent/spec - "CURIE prefixes are hard-coded by this specification, with a fallback to lookups on prefix.cc" |
| 12:45 | <hsivonen> | Is there still any data on whether Google hard-codes v: ? |
| 12:47 | <annevk42> | "The <title> is parsed for ttldent" |
| 12:47 | <annevk42> | is that legal in RDFa too? |
| 12:50 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: I've still not seen any way to test Google's RDFa support |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | are microbloggers expected to type ttldent? |
| 13:09 | <hsivonen> | or are higher-layer semantic microblogging apps supposed to use twitter/identi.ca as RDF conduits? |
| 14:27 | <hsivonen> | whee! lots of unit test failures in the html5lib suite after making EOF inside of tag discard the tag |
| 14:31 | <Dashiva> | whee as in "There is non-trivial test coverage!" or "Oh boy, lots of work fixing all these tests"? :) |
| 14:34 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: more like: I wish test for condition x didn't gratuitously depend on error handling in case y |
| 14:35 | hsivonen | goes look up blame for tests3 |
| 14:35 | <gsnedders> | tests3 in the tokenizer? |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: yeah |
| 14:36 | <gsnedders> | They're the programmatically generated ones by Philip` testing all cases in the tok, IIRC |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: should I manually edit tests3 or should they be regenerated? |
| 14:38 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: specifically, all the tests testing transitions inside tags should end in '>' instead of ending in EOF |
| 15:11 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Regeneration is non-trivial, so I suggest just editing them manually for now |
| 15:11 | <Philip`> | ("non-trivial" means I have to implement the new spec in OCaml) |
| 15:12 | <Philip`> | (and probably modify the way it decides which test cases to generate) |
| 15:12 | <jgraham> | Philip`: But functional programming is supposed to be so simple :) |
| 15:13 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Sure, I wouldn't want to write a Java program to automatically generate tokeniser tests :-) |
| 15:13 | <Philip`> | but still I'd have to read the spec and work out what's changed |
| 15:14 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Maybe you should hve ritten it in lisp. It is well knon that lisp solves all problems for you |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: ok |
| 15:46 | <hsivonen> | http://blog.digitalbackcountry.com/2009/05/html5-versus-flash-versions/ |
| 15:48 | <annevk42> | seems a bit ill-informed to base it on outdated Wikipedia information |
| 15:48 | <Rik|work> | so creating new features in flash is contributing to the open web ? |
| 15:49 | <annevk42> | if they take of they certainly create incentives |
| 15:53 | jgraham | is intrigued at how actionscript can cover <nav> |
| 15:55 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: maybe they added an accessibility API in that rev? |
| 15:57 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Could be. In general that table doesn't give enough information to tell what the corresponding feature is assumed to be |
| 15:57 | <jgraham> | e.g. I have never seen flash integrate with my browser urlbar which a good implementation of <input type="url"> would |
| 16:00 | <hsivonen> | http://www.webkitchen.be/2009/05/27/adobe-versus-the-open-web/ seems to miss that the Open Web is about the 'open' part--not about the existence of features |
| 16:05 | <annevk2> | could be that he's just trying to mislead |
| 16:07 | <Dashiva> | If he really is Asa, that would be expected |
| 16:07 | <Dashiva> | Wait, wrong blog |
| 16:09 | <jgraham> | His job title is "professional fanboy" so... |
| 16:09 | <jgraham> | Oh wait they call it "Adobe platform evangelist" but the effect is the same |
| 16:10 | <Dashiva> | "Remember the old days where you had to choose between Windows Media Player, Real Player and Quicktime?" |
| 16:10 | <Dashiva> | Remember the new days when you have to choose between Flash and Silverlight and ... |
| 16:10 | <hsivonen> | are you guys trying to make it to Last Week? |
| 16:11 | <Dashiva> | I don't have to try to make it to Last Week |
| 16:11 | <Dashiva> | It just happens on its own |
| 16:17 | <jgraham> | I gave up trying to make MLW when it became obvious how easy that was |
| 16:18 | <Dashiva> | Although the last few times I'm just collateral damage for saying things inbetween the real juicy lines |
| 16:18 | <ezyang> | Good morning all! |
| 16:19 | <Dashiva> | How open are the various adobe things he lists as open? |
| 16:20 | <jgraham> | ezyang: The i18n people will have you for comments like that |
| 16:20 | <Dashiva> | I heard something about only the RTMP spec being released, but in a way so it wasn't possible to actually use it |
| 16:23 | <ezyang> | jgraham: I come from MIT: "good morning" is an appropriate salutation for whenever you've woken up, whether it be 10AM, 2PM, 6PM, or 1AM |
| 16:25 | <Dashiva> | But what if we haven't just woken up? |
| 16:25 | <Dashiva> | Why are you pushing your personal state onto us? |
| 16:25 | ezyang | laughs maniacally |
| 16:25 | <hsivonen> | http://twitter.com/psd/statuses/1935782044 |
| 16:25 | <Dashiva> | What if some of us are easily manipulated, and end up thinking it's morning |
| 16:39 | <ezyang> | gsnedders: Did you get a chance to try running the new test suite? |
| 16:47 | <ezyang> | lock on php-tb TreeConstructer.php |
| 17:05 | <ezyang> | Ugh... the whatwg spec keeps reflowing for no apparent reason. |
| 17:05 | <ezyang> | Maybe I should get a dual monitor setup |
| 17:10 | <gsnedders> | ezyang: No |
| 17:10 | <gsnedders> | ezyang: I read Anna Karenina for far too long last night and only got up at 1pm :P |
| 17:11 | <gsnedders> | ezyang: Also: there's more to life than html5lib :P |
| 17:11 | <gsnedders> | Or, at least, I think there is. |
| 17:13 | <ezyang> | Heh |
| 17:13 | <ezyang> | No life for me. Not at least until Saturday |
| 17:13 | <gsnedders> | I guess I'm not meant to have any seeming I'm in study leave still. |
| 17:14 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You are probably suppoed to study :) |
| 17:14 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: But the AH English class is going out tonight! |
| 17:14 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: The head of English arranged it! :P |
| 17:14 | Philip` | ought to have no life until 2pm tomorrow, but will probably end up playing games instead of finishing his paper properly |
| 17:15 | <gsnedders> | Basically, we're a channel that's good at procrastinating. |
| 17:15 | <gsnedders> | And in the case of several of us good at procrastinating into doing things that are useful, but don't actually need to be done now. |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Also, I've apparently signed up in a moment of stupidity to go to a Jesus open day. |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | (College, that is) |
| 17:16 | <jgraham> | Oh, I was confused for a moment there |
| 17:16 | <jgraham> | Which is ironic |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 17:16 | <jgraham> | Anyway, good college |
| 17:17 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: What? Don't you think of it? Haven't you had a thing or two to do with it? :P |
| 17:18 | jgraham | notes that gsnedders is no longer making sense |
| 17:18 | <gsnedders> | "no longer"? |
| 17:18 | <gsnedders> | I stopped making sense a long time ago! |
| 17:18 | <gsnedders> | Making sense is _so boring_. |
| 17:18 | <gsnedders> | I mean, people understand you! |
| 17:19 | <Philip`> | If they're going to name colleges after people from books, they ought to pick good ones, like Saruman College |
| 17:20 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Peh. There are better colleges, like Hixie College. :P |
| 17:21 | jgraham | is struck by the overwhelming tempation to rename all the Cambridge colleges after Harry Potter characters |
| 17:24 | <Philip`> | jgraham: The university's 800th anniversary seems like a great opportunity to modernise in such a way |
| 17:26 | <jgraham> | It would make us more accessible to people from a wide range of backgrounds |
| 17:30 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Oh, and don't worry. I won't bully you into having supper with me for once. :D |
| 18:00 | <ezyang> | Whoo, currently at "After head" |
| 18:20 | <Philip`> | http://radar.oreilly.com/upload/2009/05/html5.png - yay, geolocation |
| 18:29 | ezyang | rolls his sleeves up, and starts auditing the "in body" mode |
| 18:33 | <Philip`> | Watch out for intestines |
| 18:33 | <ezyang> | Ugh, I just hit something squishy... |
| 18:46 | <ezyang> | Hmm... I wonder why <h1><b><h1>foo</h1></b></h1> stopped being a parse error |
| 18:55 | <Hixie> | btw has everyone seen http://www.youtube.com/html5 ? |
| 18:55 | <Hixie> | hover over the thumbnails to see something that couldn't be done with flash :-) |
| 18:55 | <gavin_> | doesn't work in Firefox |
| 18:56 | <Rik|work> | Hixie: crashing a webkit nightly ? :) |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | gavin_: yeah, it uses h.264 sadly |
| 18:57 | <Hixie> | Rik|work: works on mine |
| 18:58 | <Rik|work> | Hixie: dailymotion already did a demo like |
| 18:58 | <ezyang> | Not running nightlies, unfortunately :-( |
| 18:58 | <atwilson> | ap: quick question about how best to dispatch pending events in WorkerContext.close() - you around? |
| 18:59 | <Rik|work> | http://openvideo.dailymotion.com/ |
| 18:59 | <ap> | atwilson: sure, let's discuss it on #webkit though |
| 18:59 | <atwilson> | Sigh, I'm an idiot. I'm using new IRC software and clearly can't figure out how to select the right channel :( sorry folks. |
| 18:59 | <Hixie> | Rik|work: nice |
| 19:00 | <Rik|work> | sad part is they require firefox |
| 19:00 | <Rik|work> | but that's just a demo |
| 19:00 | <Hixie> | yeah well until we figure out a standard codec everyone can use and implement, that's always gonna be a problem |
| 19:01 | <Rik|work> | no, they require firefox, not ogg |
| 19:02 | <Hixie> | Rik|work: oh |
| 19:02 | <Hixie> | Rik|work: weird |
| 19:03 | <Rik|work> | maybe they were working with mozilla marketing, i don't know |
| 19:05 | <annevk42> | sort of glad I called on that email from masinter |
| 19:05 | <annevk42> | seems he wasn't quite in the know how we were using user agent |
| 19:06 | <hober> | seems like the spec uses it the way ordinary web developers use it... |
| 19:07 | <annevk42> | hmm, the YouTube HTML5 demo doesn't work in any of my browsers |
| 19:09 | <annevk42> | hober, although the spec is quite hard to read, the terms it introduces and uses are at least somewhat sane most of the time |
| 19:12 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: "<dl class="intro">" should be domintro |
| 19:13 | <Hixie> | fixed |
| 19:19 | <hsivonen> | what does http://www.youtube.com/html5 require to work? |
| 19:19 | <ezyang> | "An HTML5 capable browser", of course! |
| 19:20 | <annevk42> | WebKit nightlies I guess |
| 19:20 | <annevk42> | + Safari, doesn't seem like Chromium does <video> |
| 19:20 | <hsivonen> | :-( |
| 19:21 | <Hixie> | a <video> impl with h.264 decoder, i think |
| 19:21 | <Hixie> | latest safari 4 beta with latest webkit works |
| 19:22 | <inimino> | it doesn't require O3D? |
| 19:23 | <inimino> | oh, I guess that's talking about the demo in the video, not the demo the video is in... |
| 19:24 | <annevk42> | since just before dinner: "246 more results since you started searching. Refresh to see them." (twitter.com) |
| 19:26 | <annevk42> | the publicity will give us more review (well, maybe), but Google did turn HTML5 into a term like DHTML, Ajax, etc. |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | i said that would happen about 6 months ago :-) |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | when we starting talking about splitting stuff out i said we'd need a new term |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | like web 5.0 or something |
| 19:28 | <annevk42> | I guess HTML5 will now have 3 meanings |
| 19:28 | <annevk42> | language, serialization, catch-all for cool new stuff |
| 19:29 | <annevk42> | (and a historical fourth, XHTML 1.0) |
| 19:29 | zcorpan_ | notes that the youtube html5 page has ugly link borders in firefox |
| 19:30 | <zcorpan_> | when will firefox have no border by default? |
| 19:30 | <annevk42> | "but also suggested that we need new extensions to HTML 5, for example, to support events from the accelerometer in the phone" |
| 19:32 | <ezyang> | Huh. "Parse error. Change the token's tag name to "img" and reprocess it. (Don't ask.)" |
| 19:33 | <annevk42> | trouble reading? |
| 19:34 | <annevk42> | "Don't ask." |
| 19:34 | <Hixie> | he didn't technically ask :-) |
| 19:34 | <annevk42> | :p |
| 19:36 | <zcorpan_> | i wonder where <image> was first implemented |
| 20:02 | <Hixie> | what happened to all the interesting discussion on public-html? |
| 20:02 | <Hixie> | there hasn't been anything controverial in a day or so |
| 20:34 | <ezyang> | I've hit the small intestines. Auditing "end tag of formatting element" |
| 20:34 | <ezyang> | How much should I expect this algorithm to have changed? |
| 20:35 | Philip` | doesn't remember that having been changed much ever |
| 20:36 | <Philip`> | (The adoption agency definitely changed a bit, though) |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | ezyang: i honestly can't remember |
| 20:37 | <ezyang> | Ok, I'm not at adoption yet :-) |
| 20:38 | <ezyang> | Ok, looks like step 5+ changed |
| 20:50 | <hsivonen> | I'm amused how the mailing list archive demonstrates the badness of UTF-7 |
| 21:01 | <ezyang> | Hoorah, adoption agency algorithm vetted |
| 21:23 | <gsnedders> | ezyang: Having fun while I've been out with my English class? :P |
| 21:50 | <zcorpan> | "“5 > 2″ declared a slide from Vic Gundotra, VP of Engineering at Google, referring to new capabilities of HTML 5 that let us move beyond Web 2.0 apps." - http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=1123 |
| 21:51 | <gsnedders> | Hah. |
| 21:51 | <hober> | whut. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8nomt/google_bets_big_on_html_5/c09uzvf |
| 21:53 | <gsnedders> | hober: Adverts only exist on the web. |
| 21:53 | <gsnedders> | It's simple. |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | haha, i was hoping he'd keep the 5 > 2 slide |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | awesome |
| 21:58 | <ezyang> | That is pretty good. |
| 22:00 | <ezyang> | Why does the behavior for "table" end tag in "in table" insertion mode not generate implied end tags? |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders> | ezyang: "Please leave your sense of logic at the door." |
| 22:01 | <Dashiva> | ezyang: Which implied end tags would that be? |
| 22:01 | <ezyang> | Hmmmm... |
| 22:01 | <ezyang> | Good point. |
| 22:02 | <Dashiva> | I'm not entirely sure, but intuitively I'd guess that "in table" means there is nothing open inside the table tag |
| 22:02 | <ezyang> | This is not strictly true (great example is "in body"), but I could convince myself it would always be true for "in table" |
| 22:03 | gsnedders | is listening to Meeting Paris Hilton by Cansei De Ser Sexy from Cansei De Ser Sexy |
| 22:03 | gsnedders | is blatantly cool. |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | ezyang: it doesn't need to because there can never be any open elements there that aren't parse errors |
| 22:04 | <ezyang> | savvy |
| 22:04 | gsnedders | throws a parse error |
| 22:04 | olliej | wonders if google actually enjoys insulting the people who write their browser |
| 22:05 | <ezyang> | it's super effective! |
| 22:05 | <Dashiva> | ezyang: Yeah, "in body" is different because body descendents don't all get their own parse states |
| 22:06 | gsnedders | does backflip |
| 22:10 | <Dashiva> | olliej: link? |
| 22:11 | <olliej> | Dashiva: http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/05/google-bets-big-on-html-5.html |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | olliej: who are we insulting now? i thought we just gave big props to mozilla, apple, and opera today |
| 22:12 | <Philip`> | http://radar.oreilly.com/upload/2009/05/browser_innovation.png - apparently the Apple products are very low on the User Experience scale |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | actually i think that's saying they were early |
| 22:12 | <olliej> | i assume because we only write the browser |
| 22:13 | <olliej> | rather than being awesome |
| 22:13 | <Philip`> | Hixie: That's what the x-axis says, not the y-axis |
| 22:13 | <olliej> | Hixie: ooh |
| 22:13 | <ezyang> | The reddit commentors have said this already, but I'll say it again: wtf images |
| 22:13 | <olliej> | maybe it's because of geolocation |
| 22:14 | <olliej> | Hixie: which we implemented |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | Philip`: sure, but if you imagine this line graph as being the cumulative result, it just means that apple contributed first |
| 22:14 | <olliej> | but it's good to see the arrogance and misrepresentation that defines google has not gone away |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | olliej: i really have no idea what you're talking about :-) |
| 22:16 | <Hixie> | Philip`: (think of it as analogous to a chart that has time vs total market share, with each product release being a dot on the line) |
| 22:16 | <Hixie> | Philip`: (the products don't correspond to absolute values on the y-axis) |
| 22:17 | <sayrer> | it's just a chart at a hype event |
| 22:17 | <sayrer> | nothing to get worked up about |
| 22:18 | <sayrer> | remember when steve jobs had the stainless steel and wooden pie chart that showed Firefox disappearing? |
| 22:21 | <Dashiva> | Everything except Safari and IE, wasn't it? |
| 22:21 | <Dashiva> | Poor Chrome, killed off before it even appeared :) |
| 22:21 | <annevk42> | sayrer, is there a video of that? sounds like fun |
| 22:21 | <ezyang> | Will problems happen if I ignore "if that token wasn't ignored"? |
| 22:22 | <gsnedders> | ezyang: Yes. |
| 22:22 | <gavin_> | annevk42: http://john.jubjubs.net/2007/06/14/a-pictures-worth-100m-users/ |
| 22:22 | <ezyang> | ruh oh |
| 22:23 | ezyang | rooby dooby doo |
| 22:24 | <annevk42> | gavin_, wow, lol |
| 22:24 | <gavin_> | I didn't even realize it was a stainless steel and wooden pie chart |
| 22:24 | <gavin_> | that offends me deeply |
| 22:25 | <Dashiva> | What is firefox anyway? Cheese? |
| 22:25 | <gavin_> | (my father was killed by a wooden pie chart in the Stainless Steel War) |
| 22:25 | <sayrer> | yes, the chart showed shocklingly tacky keynote defaults |
| 22:25 | <olliej> | gavin_: hehe |
| 22:25 | <sayrer> | like, the yuppie kitchen of powerpoint |
| 22:26 | <olliej> | sayrer: i at least apologised to those moz people i knew, and more importantly we don't have a track record of acting like we are single handedly responsible for work done by everyone else |
| 22:27 | <annevk42> | “HTML 5 gives you a <video> tag that’s as simple to use as the <image> tag.” -- http://www.webmonkey.com/blog/Google_Throws_Its_Weight_Behind_HTML_5 |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | so apparently quite hard to use :-/ |
| 22:28 | <olliej> | annevk42: it would be nice if chrome implemented it, given webkit has had it for more than a year and it took the gtk people 3 days to do their backend |
| 22:28 | <gsnedders> | And non-obvious in terms of what it gets parsed to :P |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | olliej: seriously, what did google do today to offend you? As far as I'm aware we've done nothing but praise apple, opera, and mozilla today. |
| 22:28 | <Dashiva> | olliej: Why should anyone have to apologize? It's just marketing making a mess of things as usual? |
| 22:29 | annevk42 | agrees it would be cool if Google came up with something nice for <video> |
| 22:29 | <olliej> | Hixie: i only pay attention to the press sound bites, because they're what will be repeated as truth from here on out |
| 22:29 | <olliej> | anyhoo |
| 22:29 | olliej | should not vent here |
| 22:29 | <olliej> | as it's so far from topic |
| 22:29 | <gsnedders> | There's a topic in here? :\ |
| 22:30 | <annevk42> | olliej, we hardly ever stay on topic :) |
| 22:30 | <gsnedders> | olliej: Now, go fix #13519 :P |
| 22:30 | <ezyang> | On another note, shouldn't "clear the stack back to a table body context" get a global definition? |
| 22:30 | <sayrer> | olliej, you just need a bunch of unsold ad inventory to promote Safari/Windows |
| 22:31 | <annevk42> | olliej, it's not enough that everyone who cares enough to know knows Chromium is based on WebKit? |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | olliej: ok, what has the press said to offend you? I've not seen anything bad so far. |
| 22:31 | <olliej> | Hixie: i was referring to the slide in which chrome apparently is more awesome than safari despite just using webkit |
| 22:32 | <olliej> | anyhoo |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | olliej: if you are reading that line chart as saying that chrome is more awesome than safari then you are completely misreading the chart |
| 22:32 | <olliej> | like i said, offtopic |
| 22:32 | <olliej> | Hixie: y-axis is user experience |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | olliej: if anything, it's saying chrome was last and building on the others |
| 22:32 | <olliej> | Hixie: x axis is time |
| 22:32 | <olliej> | hmmm |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | olliej: it's a single line showing the cumulative experience (whatever that means) |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | olliej: if it was a bar chart, then sure |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | olliej: but it's showing how each of those browsers contributed to a single good (near-native) experience |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | olliej: it's not even remotely trying to insult anyone, and like i said, the most it could say is safari was the first to contribute and chrome the last |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | olliej: it is, if anything, complimenting apple more than google! |
| 22:34 | olliej | wonders what chrome has contributed given it just uses webkit -- not a single listed feature of chrome isn't from webkit |
| 22:34 | <olliej> | no matter |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | it _does_ matter |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | you can't just go around saying that we're insulting you when we're actively trying to praise you |
| 22:36 | <olliej> | i read that chart as saying chrome is more awesome than safari, with no indication of what makes it more awesome -- the only difference is gelocation which is part of webkit |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | then you read the chart completely wrong |
| 22:37 | <olliej> | apparently so |
| 22:37 | <olliej> | but i assume google is evil |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | maybe you should stop making such assumptions |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | it makes you come off as highly paranoid |
| 22:38 | <Dashiva> | Well, we could also agree that both Apple and Google are evil in their own ways |
| 22:38 | <olliej> | yeah probably |
| 22:38 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Here's a challenge for this summer: get a photograph of me that I like. |
| 22:39 | <Dashiva> | But this doesn't really seem like a case of it... |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | oh i'm not saying google is perfect, by any means |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | but it's hard to take criticism seriously when one even criticises the praise |
| 22:40 | <olliej> | Hixie: meh |
| 22:40 | <olliej> | Hixie: is there a way to block the context menu? |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | "meh" is hardly an apology, but i'll take it, since i assume it's the best i'll get |
| 22:40 | <olliej> | Hixie: eg. i right click (or whatever) to bring up the context menu |
| 22:41 | <olliej> | Hixie: i feel that slide isn't praise |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | html5 lets you add stuff to the context menu, but there's no way to prevent it altogether |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | (intentionally) |
| 22:41 | <olliej> | Hixie: but i can agree it's ambiguous |
| 22:41 | <olliej> | Hixie: ooh there is? |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | http://www.youtube.com/html5 doesn't have full-screen mode :( |
| 22:41 | olliej | dreams of a day when html context menus actually extend beyond the window |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | olliej: yeah, look up the <menu> element and the contextmenu="" attribute |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | => HTML 5 sux. |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: hit f11 |
| 22:42 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Yes, Exposé works :P |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | well if you're on mac... speak to olliej :-) |
| 22:42 | <olliej> | Hixie: yeah i just hit the same thing as gsnedders :D |
| 22:42 | <atwilson> | Hixie: quick question about worker handling of exceptions. The spec says: "For dedicated workers, if the error is still not handled afterwards, or if the error occured while handling a previous script error, the user agent must further queue a task to fire a worker error event at the Worker object associated with the worker." |
| 22:43 | <atwilson> | What does "still not handled" mean - does this mean "if the error event is not cancelled"? |
| 22:43 | gsnedders | probably ought to forsake olliej and change browser |
| 22:43 | olliej | cries |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | atwilson: see html5, 6.5.6.5 Runtime script errors |
| 22:43 | <gsnedders> | olliej: Well, if Apple had hird me… |
| 22:43 | <atwilson> | thx |
| 22:43 | <gsnedders> | *hired |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | atwilson: (it defines what it means for an error to be not handled) |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | atwilson: let me know if it's still vague after that :-) |
| 22:44 | <atwilson> | All human knowledge is contained within the vastness that is www.w3.org/TR/html5 |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | unlikely :-P |
| 22:46 | <atwilson> | sweet, 5.5.6.5 is crystal clear. |
| 22:46 | <gsnedders> | olliej: See, it's Apple's own fault :P |
| 22:46 | <Hixie> | atwilson: sweet |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | atwilson: sorry about the cross-spec references being hard to follow |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | atwilson: blame gsnedders, he hasn't figured out a way to automatically do them yet :-) |
| 22:47 | Hixie | hides |
| 22:47 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: No, I have. |
| 22:47 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I might not have implemented it yet, but I've figured it out. |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | oh, good |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | anything i need to do? |
| 22:48 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I don't think so |
| 22:49 | <annevk42> | https://twitter.com/adambarth/status/1938713488 :p |
| 22:55 | annevk42 | wonders what https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=495112 is about -- looks bad |
| 22:55 | <gavin_> | bug 455070 caused a regression |
| 22:55 | <gavin_> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=494543 |
| 22:56 | <gavin_> | that led to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=495112 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=494799 |
| 22:56 | <annevk42> | still, changing from origin to domain makes it incompatible with other impl |
| 22:56 | gavin_ | isn't really familiar with the details |
| 22:59 | <annevk42> | "The first test of that will be IE’s implementation of the canvas tag, which has been promised but not yet delivered." -- http://blogs.zdnet.com/Burnette/?p=1123 Somehow I doubt that's been promised. |
| 22:59 | gsnedders | wonders what his Yahoo id is |
| 23:17 | <annevk42> | to follow up on that Mozilla bug above, apparently the plan is to fix it in a later release... |
| 23:19 | <gsnedders> | How do you customize the toolbar that only appears while pages are loading in Opera!? |
| 23:20 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Select 'customise' and 'show hidden toolbars while customising'? |
| 23:21 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Oh, there. |
| 23:21 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: That's well hidden. |
| 23:21 | <Philip`> | Indeed, it's hidden as a labelled checkbox on the customisation screen - nobody would ever think to look there |
| 23:22 | <gsnedders> | Well, in Op10 it's in the Appearence window under the Toolbars tab, while I'm looking at Buttons wanting to drag stuff! |
| 23:25 | <annevk42> | http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8nomt/google_bets_big_on_html_5/c09v0fy -- "The internet isn't and has never been "trapped inside web browsers". The web, on the other hand, is. BECAUSE THAT'S THEIR FUCKING ROLE. \n Also, all of Air, Silverlight, JavaFX blow donkey balls." |
| 23:25 | <ezyang> | hear hear |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Huh. It appeared once, and now it's gone. |
| 23:27 | ezyang | has two more states to convert |
| 23:27 | <ezyang> | The previous author had a similar sentiment: "/* OMG DONE!! */" |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | lol, i got five upvotes for saying that i upvoted the "HTML5 sucks! All hail the semantic web! FOR THE GLORY OF XHTML2!" comment |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | i'll never understand redit |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | |
| 23:31 | <ezyang> | moooo |
| 23:32 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: I hear you can cash out your reddit upvotes for plush animals in the afterlife. |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | sweet |
| 23:33 | <annevk42> | I upvoted that one just because I thought it was funny |
| 23:33 | <annevk42> | though prolly not worth much since I've a karma of 1 |
| 23:34 | <annevk42> | "I hope the spec writers aren't presuming to tell the rest of the world what is intuitive." -- I'm not writing the spec, but I believe I just did... |
| 23:34 | <ezyang> | DONE! WHOOO! |
| 23:34 | <annevk42> | ezyang, does it work? :) |
| 23:34 | annevk42 | might use a PHP HTML5 parser |
| 23:34 | <ezyang> | I haven't run the test suite yet. |
| 23:35 | <ezyang> | For all I know, it crashes and burns with a fatal error :-) |
| 23:35 | <annevk42> | ah, I guess it will :) |
| 23:35 | <ezyang> | Also, there must be at least 40 XXX |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | annevk42: does karma affect comment voting? |
| 23:37 | <annevk42> | Hixie, to be honest I haven't studied the algorithms |
| 23:37 | <annevk42> | Hixie, maybe it just counts and doesn't take my karma into account when calculating yours |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | as far as i can tell, comment voting has no effect on anything except the troll comment cut off |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | and the karma seems to have no effect at all |
| 23:38 | <annevk42> | probably right, would be kind of expensive too now I think about it :) |
