| 01:36 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Yes I do |
| 01:46 | <Dashiva> | Darxus: It shows the wrong error text, but the document is erroneous still |
| 01:46 | <Dashiva> | "The noscript element must not be used in XML documents." |
| 01:47 | <Darxus> | Dashiva: Huh. Is there an alternative for XML? |
| 01:48 | <Dashiva> | The usual methods. Make the document as it should be without script, then use script to change it after loading |
| 01:49 | <Darxus> | Ahh, thanks. |
| 02:49 | <Dashiva> | Maybe someone (not me) should clarify that "obsolete" in HTML5 still requires implementation support |
| 02:58 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yt? |
| 02:58 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: yep |
| 02:58 | <othermaciej> | Dashiva: I thought that was really clear - I'm trying to help explain it to John and Shelley now |
| 02:59 | <Hixie> | so i was looking at the summary="" feedback you sent a while back, saying that we should tell authors not to use summary="" in the <table> section |
| 03:00 | <Hixie> | the reason i hadn't mentioned summary="" there (except for implementation-specific text) is that there doesn't seem to be a need to tell authors to not do anything, because authors by and large have never heard of it |
| 03:01 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I think my main feedback was to describe what it does and explain why using it is a problem |
| 03:01 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: looking at the current spec, it looks like the obsolete features section describes what it does, and says authors should not use it |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | yeah i was going to add text saying what the problems were into the obsolete features section |
| 03:01 | <Dashiva> | othermaciej: It's clear to me, in light of the "support existing content" idea. But if you view language obsoletion independent of use, maybe it's confusing. |
| 03:01 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: but it doesn't explain why, which might seem mysterious |
| 03:02 | <Hixie> | on a completely different front, do you have an opinion on whether the event loop should pump while the UA is blocked on a <script> element waiting for style sheets to load? |
| 03:03 | <Hixie> | (i.e. should setTimeout()s fire, user interaction events fire, etc) |
| 03:04 | <Hixie> | (i guess it should be like blocking on <script>, which doesn't pump the event loop) |
| 03:04 | <Hixie> | (at least per spec it doesn't currently) |
| 03:04 | <othermaciej> | it should be like blocking on <script>, yes |
| 03:05 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I think giving the reasoning in the obsolete elements section would be sufficient to address my concern, particularly if the <table> element section has a clear cross-reference |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | it has a cross-reference from the one mention of summary="" in the implementation requirement |
| 03:06 | <Hixie> | in that you can click on the word "summary" |
| 03:06 | <othermaciej> | that seems fine |
| 03:06 | <othermaciej> | (to me) |
| 03:07 | <Hixie> | k |
| 03:31 | <Hixie> | http://www.w3.org/mid/8618F212-C191-4CCC-9F27-6BF7829622FE⊙wo is a surprisingly interesting e-mail from Tim if you care about the "resource" vs "resource representation" nonsense |
| 04:21 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: that is kind of interesting |
| 04:22 | <othermaciej> | using fragments to refer to non-document entities would have indeed made more sense |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | using a whole new scheme would have been better, imho |
| 04:55 | <Dashiva> | Hmm... |
| 04:56 | <Dashiva> | Shelley seems to talk about a model where features are marked as deprecated, usage drops, deprecated becomes obsolete, and finally support is dropped |
| 04:57 | <Dashiva> | As I recall, that model works fine when there is no (unmaintained) legacy content, not so well when legacy rears its ugly head. |
| 04:58 | <Dashiva> | I wonder if there is a significant body of legacy @summary use |
| 05:18 | <othermaciej> | does WCAG 2 explicitly mention the summary="" attribute anywhere? |
| 05:19 | <othermaciej> | I couldn't find the reference |
| 05:22 | <othermaciej> | I see, it's in a separate Note |
| 05:43 | gavin_ | finds handicap parking slots to be limiting to those not physically impaired |
| 05:43 | <gavin_> | means they need to park farther from the entrance |
| 05:44 | <gavin_> | society has generally agreed that the tradeoff there (ease of access to those with disabilities) was worth it, though |
| 05:44 | <gavin_> | and that concludes today's Irrelevant Analogy Nitpick |
| 08:58 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: i would suggest File |
| 08:59 | <Hixie> | though i guess that excludes streams |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: yeah, File is simpler and unambiguous |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | but I guess it does mean serialized content and not a stream |
| 09:15 | <annevk> | so RDF fucked up both XML and HTTP? |
| 09:15 | <annevk> | fun |
| 09:16 | <annevk> | (though HTTP only in the theoretical sense so I suppose that doesn't really matter) |
| 09:22 | <MikeSmith> | collateral damage |
| 09:22 | <MikeSmith> | and civilian casualties |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | Lachy, you around? |
| 10:03 | <Hixie> | gotta love how john completely ignored the points i made about the pfwg ignoring me, and then said i should talk to the pfwg. |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | yeah, I thought that was weird |
| 10:17 | <Lachy> | annevk, yes |
| 10:18 | <tantek> | Hixie, it seems like Sam Ruby is getting increasingly impatient with those on the list that are either repeating themselves or making apparent logically flawed statements (and he's pointing them out). |
| 10:18 | <tantek> | apparently |
| 10:22 | <Lachy> | I'm thinking that since the arguments from the pro-summary attribute advocates largely stem from the advice in WCAG2 Techniques and the apparent contradiction, we should instead be pushing for the PFWG to amend WCAG2 with better solutions |
| 10:25 | <annevk> | Lachy, should I have you the public key on my local machine? |
| 10:26 | <gsnedders_> | Lachy: What better solution that is conforming in HTML 4.01? |
| 10:26 | <Hixie> | several of the ones in html5 are conforming in html4 |
| 10:26 | <annevk> | Lachy, I haven't worked a lot with this before; in fact, only for the W3C |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | Lachy, btw, it seems you did not restore the original template with the author names visible |
| 10:28 | <Lachy> | annevk, I need to put a copy of your ssh-rsa key into the authorized_keys file on the server |
| 10:29 | <annevk> | is to your @opera.com address ok? |
| 10:30 | <Lachy> | sure, either address is fine |
| 10:31 | <annevk> | and then I can login through ssh? |
| 10:31 | <Lachy> | annevk, yes |
| 10:31 | <Lachy> | using: ssh lhunt⊙bwo |
| 10:32 | <Lachy> | gsnedders_, some of the alternative solutions listed in HTML5 are also conforming HTML4 |
| 10:33 | <Hixie> | i just said that :-P |
| 10:33 | <Lachy> | Hixie, oh. I didn't read your message |
| 10:34 | <Hixie> | hey go figure, webkit only pauses to wait for styles for _external_ scripts |
| 10:34 | <Hixie> | gecko doesn't seem to discriminate |
| 10:35 | <annevk> | so worky? |
| 10:35 | <annevk> | it asks me for a password... |
| 10:35 | <Lachy> | annevk, I haven't added it yet |
| 10:35 | <Lachy> | give me a minute, I only just received your mail |
| 10:36 | <annevk> | Hixie, what happened to the weekly updates from markp? |
| 10:36 | <Hixie> | no idea, ask markp |
| 10:37 | <Lachy> | annevk, now try |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | I'm in |
| 10:38 | <Lachy> | annevk, btw, it was an rsa key you sent, so the file should have been called id_rsa not id_dsa, but it doesn't matter too much |
| 10:39 | <Philip`> | It should have been called id_rsa.pub, I hope |
| 10:39 | <Lachy> | Philip`, yes |
| 10:39 | <Philip`> | since you're really not meant to email your private key to people :-p |
| 10:40 | <Lachy> | he emailed the id_dsa.pub file |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | now it asks for the password again |
| 10:41 | <Lachy> | what? |
| 10:41 | <annevk> | hmm, only when I use sshfs |
| 10:42 | <Lachy> | it shouldn't. If you have the private key in ~/.ssh/id_rsa or ~/.ssh/identity it should work |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | nope |
| 10:45 | <annevk> | I'll use some other means to do things |
| 10:52 | <Lachy> | annevk, are you going to replace the stylesheet with that one from Ben? |
| 10:53 | <annevk> | I'm currently duplicating the default theme |
| 10:53 | <annevk> | it's take ages to make a cp of a folder on that server |
| 10:54 | <annevk> | then I'll put the style sheet in the "new theme" and maybe make some other adjustments |
| 10:56 | <Lachy> | annevk, if you want authors to show up on the index page as well, uncomment the appropriate line in index.php |
| 10:57 | <Lachy> | actually, copy the line from single.php, as it also adds a link to the authors URL |
| 10:59 | <Lachy> | heh, nice theme name: org.whatwg.awesome :-) |
| 11:08 | <Philip`> | I think someone needs to make the font half the size it currently is |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | it was actually smaller but I wanted it larger |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | I'll make it a bit smaller then |
| 11:10 | <Philip`> | It seems sensible to make it comparable to text sizes on all other sites, and then if somebody personally prefers large fonts they can configure their browser to increase them all |
| 11:10 | <Lachy> | annevk, just make it the default font-size |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | done |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | Philip`, sensible is boring |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | It looks alright now if I zoom out to 90% |
| 11:12 | <Lachy> | Philip`, no, copying the mistakes of other sites is not a good idea |
| 11:13 | <Hixie> | Lachy: we lost that fight, deal with it |
| 11:13 | <Hixie> | font-size:medium means 16px |
| 11:14 | <Lachy> | font-size: small is somewhat acceptable, though I think medium is best |
| 11:16 | <Lachy> | damn, a recent nightly minefield update appears to have killed my entire history and bookmarks |
| 11:22 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: if you were a Minefield user, that should make you mad. But since there's no such thing as Minefield users, only Minefield testers, you should be happy! |
| 11:22 | <MikeSmith> | exclamation point |
| 11:22 | <gsnedders_> | Lachy: See, if you used Opera… |
| 11:22 | <Lachy> | gsnedders_, I use both |
| 11:22 | <Lachy> | I even have opera set as my default, but there are still some things that Minefield is better for |
| 11:25 | <Lachy> | yay, it looks like it's just Minefield failing to load them. Using FIrefox 3.5.1 with the same profile restores everything :-) |
| 11:25 | gsnedders_ | tries to resist the temptation to say: "BREAKING: Opera employee has Opera set as default browser" |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | Chromium seems to cache HTML for a long time for some reason |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | content that is long gone does not disappear on refreshes?! |
| 11:26 | <gsnedders_> | That's the same for anything using WebKit, AFAIK |
| 11:27 | <annevk> | posts from hsivonen to blog.whatwg.org might need to be modified to use the proper heading level |
| 11:27 | <annevk> | s/might// |
| 11:38 | <annevk> | if someone could start a wiki page with things to fix on the blog (markup, etc.) or somewhere else I'll try to do some more stuff tonight |
| 12:34 | Philip` | wonders what the difference is between 'obsolete' and 'deprecated' |
| 12:35 | <takkaria> | you deprecate something that's still perfectly functional that you have a vendetta against, but obsoleted stuff is genuinely outdated |
| 12:35 | takkaria | makes it up |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders_: about the caching thing, if so, I think that's coincidental, because Webkit/Webcore itself doesn't have any caching code. it's all platform code |
| 12:36 | <Philip`> | I suppose 'obsolete' has the advantage that nobody will misread/misspell it as 'obsoliete' |
| 12:36 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: or obnoxiouselete either |
| 12:37 | <gsnedders_> | MikeSmith: Stop assuming I know stuff. |
| 12:37 | <gsnedders_> | MikeSmith: Also, I'm not going home on Friday. |
| 12:39 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders_: I guess you'll have to find a way to enjoy yourself in Sweden in the summertime. poor you. |
| 12:40 | <MikeSmith> | maybe instead of obsolete and deprecated we need a third term without their connotations |
| 12:40 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., "Conforming but FUBAR" |
| 12:40 | <gsnedders_> | "we-don't-like-this" |
| 12:41 | <gsnedders_> | Cool. Facebook has crashed Opera. |
| 12:41 | <Philip`> | Or: Opera has crashed Facebook |
| 12:41 | <Philip`> | to assign blame in the right place |
| 12:42 | Philip` | awaits a day when crashing is obsolete rather than just deprecated |
| 12:44 | gsnedders_ | notes with mild amusement nobody apart from MikeSmith here has a clue about his former plans to go home |
| 12:44 | Philip` | finally reaches the email where Hixie already queried the obsolete vs deprecated thing |
| 12:44 | krijnh | wants some obsol33t stuff in the spec as well |
| 12:45 | <Philip`> | I think the spec section status markers should be extended, so that as well as showing the stability of each section they also show its awesomeness |
| 12:46 | <gsnedders_> | +1 |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: you're onto something there |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | but it should be two awesomeness fields, not one |
| 12:50 | <gsnedders_> | What's the scale? |
| 12:50 | <gsnedders_> | Awesomeness units? |
| 12:50 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders_: binary - "This part rocks!" and "This part blows." |
| 12:50 | <gsnedders_> | MikeSmith: And the other field? |
| 12:53 | <Philip`> | I was thinking more of a continuous linear scale from "this is like so lame" to "this r0x0rz my s0x0rz" |
| 12:54 | <gsnedders_> | Philip`: Yeah, I was thinking of that |
| 14:04 | <MikeSmith> | is the value of the iframe "name" attribute allowed to be empty? |
| 14:06 | <MikeSmith> | v.nu doesn't require to be |
| 14:07 | <MikeSmith> | and in HTML4, it was defined as CDATA, with no constraints on its length |
| 14:10 | <MikeSmith> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/browsers.html#valid-browsing-context-name |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | "A valid browsing context name is any string with at least one character that does not start with a U+005F LOW LINE character." |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | seems to require that it not be empty |
| 15:02 | <gsnedders_> | Is there any dfn of OMG IDL -> ES mapping? |
| 15:50 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: venus instance for planet html5 consistently gets a 500 from your site when trying to get your feed |
| 15:51 | <MikeSmith> | for quite a while now (many weeks) |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders_> | Why should ~0 give -1 in ES? |
| 15:53 | gsnedders_ | realize |
| 15:53 | <gsnedders_> | *realizes |
| 15:54 | <takkaria> | if ~ is bitwise NOT, then it's because integers are signed |
| 15:54 | <gsnedders_> | Right, and because with two's compliment all bits as 1 is -1 |
| 15:56 | gsnedders_ | is for some reason thinking of sign bits, and hence being confused |
| 16:24 | <Lachy> | Can anyone explain why this particular example of a summary attribute is actually useful for anyone? http://source.sakaiproject.org/viewsvn/content/trunk/content-bundles/content.properties?p2=%2Fcontent%2Ftrunk%2Fcontent-bundles%2Fcontent.properties&p1=%2Fcontent%2Ftrunk%2Fcontent-bundles%2Fcontent.properties&r1=39898&r2=39897&view=diff&pathrev=39898 |
| 16:24 | <Lachy> | that's from that bug report that Shelly referred to. |
| 16:25 | <Lachy> | http://jira.sakaiproject.org/browse/SAK-11668 |
| 16:25 | <Lachy> | It looks to me like it's just a list describing what each column is, but that info could almost certainly be derived from the column headings |
| 16:26 | <Lachy> | (if it couldn't, then even sighted users would have difficulty) |
| 16:26 | <takkaria> | or with a title="" attribute on the header table cells so that if you're in a column you can find oiut what it does rather than having to remember a paragraph of text |
| 16:26 | <Lachy> | takkaria, yeah, I was thinking that too |
| 16:26 | <Lachy> | and was about to write it :-) |
| 16:27 | takkaria | grins |
| 16:27 | <Lachy> | except I was going to suggest putting the title attribute on the col element, but I'm not sure how much support that would have in practice compared with it being on the th element |
| 16:28 | <Philip`> | Lachy: It couldn't be derived from the column heading textContent - e.g. "Column 2 has checkboxes to select whether an item should be moved, copied or removed" is usually implemented as a headingless column of checkboxes, and a sighted user can easily see there's buttons at the bottom of the page for "move selected", "delete selected" etc |
| 16:28 | <Lachy> | Philip`, it's hard to say without actually seeing the table, and I couldn't find a link to an example table from that bug report |
| 16:29 | <Lachy> | but I reckon there would be alternative ways to convey that information |
| 16:29 | <Philip`> | Lachy: Most webmail systems have the same kind of checkbox thing |
| 16:29 | <Lachy> | I know |
| 16:30 | <Philip`> | so it doesn't seem that hard to say without actually seeing the table, because you can see the same thing in lots of other tables |
| 16:31 | <Philip`> | (The description could still go in a <th abbr> or something, so <table summary> isn't necessarily the best way of doing it, but it can't be done with visible text) |
| 16:33 | <Lachy> | there is no abbr attribute in HTML5 |
| 16:33 | <Lachy> | although, the abbr attribute in HTML4 wasn't intended for that purpose either |
| 16:35 | <Lachy> | It could be done with the title attribute, which is sometimes visible, though it does suffer from some problems like being inaccessible to keyboard users without assistive technology |
| 16:36 | <takkaria> | not with a visible indicator, it doesn't |
| 16:36 | <takkaria> | oh |
| 16:36 | <takkaria> | keyboard users |
| 17:34 | <MikeSmith> | an HTML5 datatype-checking library in python or c++ or other would be a nice thing to have |
| 17:34 | <MikeSmith> | were someone so inclined to write one |
| 17:46 | <Lachy> | apparently JF has produced an alternative draft. I wonder if and when the draft will be made available publicly? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0071.html |
| 17:46 | <Lachy> | or if MikeSmith could post a pointer, since he was apparently CC'd on the mail |
| 17:48 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I guess John will announce it when it's available |
| 18:22 | gsnedders_ | rings up his sister, and doesn't get her |
| 18:23 | <gsnedders_> | Does that mean she's giving birth or something? |
| 18:29 | Philip` | wonders if anyone happens to know how to change the screen resolution in Windows 2000, when you can't see the screen |
| 18:32 | <Darxus> | Philip`: How can you do anything in windows when you can't see the screen? |
| 18:33 | <Dashiva> | Well, you can run services. But I don't see why the resolution would matter |
| 18:33 | <gsnedders_> | Philip`: You reboot to a unix-clone CD |
| 18:34 | <Philip`> | Darxus: I'll be able to see the screen once I change the resolution to something the monitor can handle without desyncing |
| 18:38 | <Darxus> | Heh. |
| 18:38 | <Darxus> | Philip`: Reboot to safe mode? |
| 18:39 | Philip` | manages to guess the right key combinations to change the display settings |
| 18:45 | <gsnedders_> | hehe |
| 18:46 | <gsnedders_> | fun :P |
| 18:52 | <Dashiva> | This is why voice control is great |
| 18:54 | <Philip`> | At least until you need to reconfigure your microphone |
| 21:05 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, I've no idea how that can be |
| 21:05 | <annevk> | :/ |
| 21:29 | <Lachy> | watching tonights episode of Top Gear, lovin' how they're reviewing two Aussie cars :-) |
| 21:30 | <Lachy> | but I can't get over they're totally incorrect pronunciation of "Bathurst" |
| 21:30 | <Lachy> | s/they're/their/ |
| 21:30 | gsnedders_ | can't get over Lachy being unable to pronounce "Lachlan" |
| 21:30 | <Philip`> | I hope they're not propounding any unfounded stereotypes about Australians |
| 21:31 | <Lachy> | gsnedders_, I do say my name correctly |
| 21:31 | <gsnedders_> | Lachy: I think most people who have any clue about Gaelic or Scots pronunciation, the two languages in which your name exists, would say you don't :) |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | should we use HTML5 on the blog? |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | I already put some form stuff in |
| 21:50 | <gsnedders_> | Yes |
| 21:50 | <annevk> | wondering about <aside> and such |
| 21:50 | <Philip`> | No |
| 21:50 | <annevk> | reasoning? |
| 21:51 | <gsnedders_> | Because I'm crazy. |
| 21:51 | Philip` | wasn't intending to provide any more reasoning than gsnedders_ |
| 21:55 | annevk | was also considering dropping the html/head/body tags |
| 21:55 | <gsnedders_> | +1 |
| 21:55 | <gsnedders_> | (No reasoning given) |
| 22:01 | <jacobolus> | annevk: do it! drop it all! |
| 22:01 | <jacobolus> | then write up a blog post about how it's the new "best practice", and let the flames dance |
| 22:03 | <jacobolus> | btw, if anyone wants input into python-based servers' mime types, now is the time: http://bugs.python.org/issue6626 |
| 22:05 | <annevk> | jacobolus, ah yeah |
| 22:05 | <annevk> | the good old days |
| 22:06 | <jacobolus> | annevk: I mean, google does it, right? |
| 22:06 | <jacobolus> | so it has to be good |
| 22:07 | <jacobolus> | actually, google seems to include html/head/body tags, and just drop the close of body. hmm. |
| 22:08 | <jacobolus> | that's too bad. you can't use them as evidence |
| 22:08 | <annevk> | jacobolus, maybe add .xht and .xhtml? |
| 22:09 | <annevk> | .svg ? |
| 22:09 | <jacobolus> | annevk: oh, I'm going to add most or all of apache's defaults |
| 22:09 | <jacobolus> | the main questions are about what to use when there are multiple acceptable choices |
| 22:09 | <annevk> | .ogv oga etc. |
| 22:09 | <annevk> | oh ok |
| 22:09 | <jacobolus> | e.g. text/javascript, application/javascript, text/ecmascript, etc. |
| 22:10 | <jacobolus> | for the moment I've just tried to make the code snae |
| 22:10 | <jacobolus> | *sane |
| 22:10 | <jacobolus> | I don't know if you've ever looked at the mimetypes module, but somewhere around 2001 it went from being a nice little script to being a nightmare |
| 22:11 | <jacobolus> | I'm hard pressed to think of a worse bit of python code I've seen |
| 22:11 | <annevk> | html5lib? :p |
| 22:11 | <jacobolus> | haven't seen it ;) |
| 22:18 | <jacobolus> | it manages to confuse the syntax highlighter for google code, anyway |
| 22:18 | <jacobolus> | http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/source/browse/python/src/html5lib/html5parser.py |
| 22:18 | <jacobolus> | around line 204 |
| 22:24 | <Dashiva> | jacobolus: Will you add the types apache refuses to include? |
| 22:24 | <jacobolus> | Dashiva: I wouldn't mind.. someone else presumably has to read/approve whatever patches I submit |
| 22:25 | <jacobolus> | Dashiva: I don't actually know much about it though; have a link or quick summary? |
| 22:25 | <jacobolus> | Dashiva: all I know is that it was previously completely awful. It would be good to do things "right" though, and I'd be happy to hear what that means to various ppl. |
| 22:27 | <annevk> | well for e.g. JavaScript it does not matter at all |
| 22:28 | <annevk> | so "right" could be text/awesome-donkey+xml |
| 22:28 | <annevk> | for image resources other than SVG it does not really matter either |
| 22:29 | <Dashiva> | jacobolus: https://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=22580 |
| 22:29 | <annevk> | (having said that, I believe even the sniffing spec states that you should specify the correct media type) |
| 22:30 | <jacobolus> | Dashiva: the way the python mimetypes module currently works is to have a 'strict' mode and a 'lenient' mode; I personally think this is stupid |
| 22:31 | <jacobolus> | the 'strict' mode is supposed to stick to IANA registered types |
| 22:31 | <jacobolus> | but in practice it doesn't of course because anything in a mime.types file it finds is considered 'strict' |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | IANA / IETF just doesn't work well for these things |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | media types, URI schemes, HTTP headers, ... |
| 22:33 | <jacobolus> | anything? |
| 22:33 | <jacobolus> | ;) |
| 22:33 | <jacobolus> | annevk: I'm not convinced IETF is great for protocols either |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | character encodings is another disaster |
| 22:34 | <Dashiva> | Great case for decentralized extensibility :P |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | so does anyone know where hsivonen is? |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | he's been off the grid since july 17th and i don't recall him saying he was going to be on vacation |
| 22:37 | <jacobolus> | Dashiva: here's apache's current mappings extension -> type http://pastie.textmate.org/569011 |
| 22:38 | <jacobolus> | I'd just as soon include all of those in Python's standard library, though I'm not sure everyone would be on board with that |
| 22:41 | <annevk> | Hixie, no idea |
| 22:42 | <annevk> | Hixie, I'd imagine someone at Mozilla knows, but maybe not |
| 22:52 | <jacobolus> | Dashiva: it looks to me like those types in that bug are actually listed by apache these days |
| 22:53 | <jacobolus> | video/x-ms-asf, etc. |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | good news everyone! |
| 22:58 | <Dashiva> | jacobolus: Indeed, looks like they were added a few months ago. |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | hsivonen isn't dead |
| 22:59 | <Dashiva> | "More unregistered media types in common use on the Internet. *sigh*" |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | well, he might be dead, but he's not officially missing until aug 3rd |
| 22:59 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: He was hit by a car, and not a bus? |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | apparently he's on vacation with no e-mail access |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | boy is he gonna have fun when he gets back and sees two weeks' worth of public-html |
| 22:59 | <jacobolus> | Dashiva: hmm? link? |
| 22:59 | <ezyang> | i,i "like the CentOS dude" |
| 23:00 | <Dashiva> | jacobolus: http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/httpd/httpd/trunk/docs/conf/mime.types?view=log |
| 23:00 | <jacobolus> | haha |
| 23:01 | <Dashiva> | I'm (positively) surprised it was Roy who did it |
| 23:02 | <annevk2> | Hixie, jaja :) |
| 23:04 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: "Wow, I saved myself a lot of pain by not being present during this" |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | i'm very curious to see what we end up voting on |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | i really didn't understand the vote sam last described (obsolete vs deprecated -- what changes would it mean to the spec?) |
| 23:05 | <Dashiva> | Just a word replacement |
| 23:06 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I didn't understand that either. John's proposed draft doesn't make summary "deprecated" |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | i didn't understand john's draft |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | i mean, i understood what he was proposing, but he didn't say why he was proposing it |
| 23:07 | <annevk2> | because of WAI consensus? |
| 23:07 | <Lachy> | yeah, the lack of justification was one of issues I had with it |
| 23:07 | <annevk2> | Hixie, why are we not using deprecated btw now that we have warnings? |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | annevk2: deprecated isn't in my dictionary |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | i mean, literally. i just searched for "Deprecated" in the dictionary on Mac OS X and it wasn't there |
| 23:08 | <Dashiva> | "We've done some new research showing there's no lumiferous aether, but this earlier work says it exists, so let's keep studying the aether" |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | oh wait that was the thesaurus |
| 23:09 | <annevk2> | it seems though that you might be in a minority here and that most people find deprecated much more clear than obsolete but conforming |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | annevk2: the values that it would cover aren't just deprecated, i mean, they really are obsolete |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | annevk2: the only reason we allow them is to allow migration |
| 23:09 | <annevk2> | that is pretty much how deprecated is used |
| 23:10 | <annevk2> | in all specs I've read anyway |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | annevk2: deprecated implies (to me at least) that it might make sense to make new documents with those features |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | as in the way HTML4 Transitional was "deprecated" but people still use it today |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | and think it's fine |
| 23:11 | <annevk2> | that was because HTML4 had a separate conformance class for it, I think |
| 23:11 | <Lachy> | Hixie, I suppose you can make the editorial change of "braille" to "Braille" that John did in his draft |
| 23:11 | <annevk2> | for most other specs it would always generate a warning |
| 23:12 | <annevk2> | and for HTML5 it could too |
| 23:12 | <Dashiva> | How about using a word that isn't either deprecated or obsolete? |
| 23:12 | <annevk2> | the spec could also explain that you should not use these features in new documents (HTML4 didn't provide much guidance) |
| 23:14 | <Lachy> | using "obsolete" made sense when we just had conforming and non-conforming. It doesn't make much sense with the current conforming but obsolete nonsense |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: i'm up for a new word if you have one. "deprecated" isn't in my thesaurus, see above. :-) |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | Lachy: is lowercase "braille" really wrong? |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | i'd have expected the word to have become a regular noun by now |
| 23:15 | <Dashiva> | Well, functionality-wise, it seems to be more akin to legacy than deprecation |
| 23:15 | <annevk2> | Hixie, Wikipedia uses uppercase |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | annevk2: not everywhere, i just checked |
| 23:16 | <Lachy> | I'm not sure. I just don't think it's a controversial change |
| 23:16 | <annevk2> | Hixie, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Braille#Capitalization |
| 23:18 | <Dashiva> | Last I recall, @summary was still acceptable in addition to other techniques, used by a perfect and faultless author, for purely structural data of no use to other users |
| 23:18 | <Lachy> | answers.com and dictionary.com both seem to indicate that either is acceptable |
| 23:19 | <Lachy> | Dictionary.app uses only uppercase |
| 23:22 | <Lachy> | hmm, interesting http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/braille/capitalize.html |
| 23:23 | <Lachy> | http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/Glossary/printable.html#def-braille |
| 23:23 | <Lachy> | that uses lowercase |
| 23:24 | <annevk2> | heh |
| 23:24 | <Dashiva> | Enter "Braille/braille" |
| 23:24 | <Lachy> | in that case, leave it as is, since John provided no justification for the change anyway |
| 23:30 | <Lachy> | wow, like annevk2, I too find myself strongly agreeing with Murray. |
| 23:41 | <webben> | Hixie: "conforming but not recommended" ? |
| 23:42 | <webben> | or "conforming but not preferred"? |
| 23:43 | <Lachy> | ... or simply "non-conforming"! |
| 23:45 | <Dashiva> | vestigal syntax |
| 23:46 | <Lachy> | s/vestigal/vestigial/ |
| 23:46 | <Lachy> | s/syntax/markup/ |
| 23:46 | <Dashiva> | I always get that one wrong |
| 23:47 | <Dashiva> | Then again, I was spelling ominous quite confidently as "omnious" until I was 25 |
| 23:47 | <Lachy> | I'm not sure vestigial is really an appropriate term here though |
| 23:48 | <Dashiva> | a bodily part or organ that is small and degenerate or imperfectly developed in comparison to one more fully developed in an earlier stage of the individual, in a past generation, or in closely related forms |
| 23:49 | <Dashiva> | organ -> feature, generation -> spec version |
| 23:49 | <Dashiva> | I dunno, you're probably right |
| 23:49 | <webben> | Curious how http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#glossary makes deprecated a subset of obsolete and unhelpful that it doesn't clearly define "exist". |
| 23:52 | <webben> | e.g. overlapping set, rather |
| 23:52 | <webben> | s/e.g.// |