| 00:00 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, on reflection, I actually don't think styling of error messages is essential for HTML 5 forms. It's not meant to totally replace script. It lets you declare constraints in a nice, simple, standard, easy-to-use, declarative manner. If the UA supports script, you can use the script interfaces provided to override the default error handling. |
| 00:00 | <AryehGregor> | If not, or if you can't be bothered or don't care much about aesthetics, you can use the UA defaults. |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | But that's the two extremes - ignore it entirely, or roll a completely homebrew error message. |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | I believe there's a middle area that's still useful to hit. |
| 00:01 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. Maybe. But it sounds very complicated. |
| 00:01 | <AryehGregor> | When you start trying to work out the details, I mean. |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | Hmm, I think it ends up relatively simple. |
| 00:02 | <TabAtkins> | At least, if the definitions of the pseudoclasses are modified appropriately. |
| 00:03 | <TabAtkins> | input:invalid('range-underflow')::error { content: "This is too small."; border: 2px solid red; padding: 5px; background: wheat; color: red; font-weight: bold; } |
| 00:03 | <TabAtkins> | Or whatever. |
| 00:03 | <TabAtkins> | That's assuming that all the features are available. |
| 00:03 | <AryehGregor> | And that box gets put where? Undefined? How do you know if there's enough space, etc.? |
| 00:03 | <TabAtkins> | If ::error isn't reliably available, then use input::error { display: none; } and input:invalid('range-underflow')::after { --rules-- }; |
| 00:04 | <TabAtkins> | ::error box is generated in a UA-defined location. |
| 00:04 | <TabAtkins> | UA is expected to ensure that it fits on the page. |
| 00:04 | <AryehGregor> | And displays when? Also UA-defined? |
| 00:05 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. Opera does it on submit, but it would probably also be fine to do it whenever the element matches :invalid, assuming :invalid is changed to not match immediately on pageload. |
| 00:06 | <AryehGregor> | If you aim for middle ground, you run the risk of hitting too high to satisfy half the authors and too low to satisfy the other half. |
| 00:06 | <TabAtkins> | True. |
| 00:06 | <TabAtkins> | So I'm aiming for something that would satisfy me as an author. |
| 00:07 | <AryehGregor> | The proposal is quite rigid. If you want even slightly more control, you have to throw the whole thing out and redo it from scratch. |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | Indeed, but if you give up any more control, you *explode* in complexity. |
| 00:07 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | To the point that doing it in script is comparable. |
| 00:07 | <AryehGregor> | Well, yes. Doing it in script isn't so bad. |
| 00:07 | <AryehGregor> | Not with all the nice APIs that were added. |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | This is true. |
| 00:07 | <AryehGregor> | A few lines, really. |
| 00:08 | <AryehGregor> | Well, depending on what you want to do. |
| 00:08 | <TabAtkins> | But I dunno the accessibility issue, especially when compared to the native error semantics. |
| 00:08 | <Lachy> | AryehGregor, I initially thought the same as you, but after speaking with our dev relations person about this, there are apparently a lot of authors who don't want all the complexities of using javascripts just to make error messages look nice |
| 00:09 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, I agree that not using JavaScript would be nice. |
| 00:09 | <AryehGregor> | I actually just said on the whatwg list how much I preferred this declarative stuff to even one line of JavaScript. |
| 00:09 | <AryehGregor> | (in the case of autofocus) |
| 00:09 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 00:10 | <JonathanNeal> | JS has its place :-) |
| 00:10 | <TabAtkins> | Especially since there are so many little ways that the simple js solution is wrong. |
| 00:10 | <TabAtkins> | And by the time you get it right, it's way too big and omigodwhydon'tbrowsersjustdothisformeforgodsakes |
| 00:21 | <AryehGregor> | Wouldn't a decent working solution just be (kind of pseudo-codey since my JS is terrible): onchange="if (!this.validity.valid) appendErrorMsg(this)" oninput="if (this.validity.valid) removeErrorMsg(this)", with appendErrorMsg() and removeErrorMsg() being a line or two? |
| 00:21 | <AryehGregor> | Most of the effort seems like it would go into writing up descriptions for every possible error condition. |
| 00:21 | <AryehGregor> | Or combinations thereof. |
| 00:21 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. |
| 00:22 | <TabAtkins> | That would work just fine. |
| 00:22 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, there's even an invalid event. |
| 00:22 | <AryehGregor> | Aha. |
| 00:22 | <AryehGregor> | Just use this.validationMessage. |
| 00:22 | <AryehGregor> | I was thinking that should exist, and it does. :) |
| 00:24 | <AryehGregor> | Bah, I really don't know any JavaScript. |
| 00:24 | <TabAtkins> | can you point me to the invalid event? |
| 00:24 | <AryehGregor> | I only see one reference to it, actually. |
| 00:24 | <AryehGregor> | Perhaps it's an error. |
| 00:25 | <AryehGregor> | "Returns true if the element's value has no validity problems; false otherwise. Fires an invalid event at the element in the latter case." |
| 00:25 | <TabAtkins> | I do know javascript, though with a jQuery accent. |
| 00:25 | <TabAtkins> | spec referencee? |
| 00:25 | <AryehGregor> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#the-constraint-validation-api |
| 00:25 | <AryehGregor> | valid = element . checkValidity() |
| 00:25 | <AryehGregor> | Under there. |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | But I don't see it mentioned elsewhere in the spec. |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | No, I see now. |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | It's mentioned elsewhere. |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | Or no, maybe it's not. |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway. |
| 00:27 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, I don't see it elsewhere. I just see references to firing the invalid event. |
| 00:28 | <AryehGregor> | Well, I guess that's enough. Events don't really have any properties other than a name. |
| 00:28 | AryehGregor | tries to figure out how to say "add some HTML right after the current element" without having to do all this document.createElement(); etc. etc. stuff |
| 00:30 | <TabAtkins> | $("some html").insertAfter(another element); |
| 00:31 | <TabAtkins> | Or $(element).after("some html"); if that's more convenient. |
| 00:31 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, but if I'm trying to come up with a solution that's only a few lines long, it's kind of cheating to use a multi-thousand line library. :) |
| 00:31 | <TabAtkins> | It's not my fault that stuffs not part of ecma. It should be. ^_^ |
| 00:34 | <AryehGregor> | onchange="this.checkValidity()" oninvalid="err = document.createElement('div'); err.class='error'; err.appendChild(document.createTextNode(this.validationMessage); document.insertBefore(err, this.nextSibling);" oninput="if (this.validity.valid && this.nextSibling.class == 'error') this.nextSibling.removeNode()" |
| 00:34 | <AryehGregor> | That's one line, technically. |
| 00:34 | <AryehGregor> | Insofar as a "line" is delimited by "\n" rather than, say, ";". |
| 00:34 | <AryehGregor> | (It's totally untested and almost certainly wrong.) |
| 00:34 | <TabAtkins> | Your technical definition is useless and wrong. |
| 00:35 | <AryehGregor> | Hey, it works great for Unix utilities. |
| 00:35 | <AryehGregor> | No need to make up different definitions just because it's a programming language. |
| 00:37 | <TabAtkins> | $(input).change(function(){this.checkValidity();}).invalid(function(){$("<div class='error'>").text(this.validationMessage).insertAfter(this);}).input(function(){if(this.validity.valid){$("+ .error", this).remove();}); |
| 00:37 | <TabAtkins> | That shoudl work. |
| 00:37 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 00:37 | <AryehGregor> | It looks like checkValidity() in Opera fires its own custom error thingie. |
| 00:37 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe I need to return false? |
| 00:38 | <TabAtkins> | If the invalid event isn't cancelled, it triggers the validation stuff. |
| 00:38 | <TabAtkins> | So return false from oninvalid; |
| 00:38 | <AryehGregor> | Doesn't seem to help. |
| 00:38 | <AryehGregor> | "When the checkValidity() method is invoked, if the element is a candidate for constraint validation and does not satisfy its constraints, the user agent must fire a simple event called invalid that is cancelable (but has no default action)" |
| 00:39 | <AryehGregor> | I'll try using element.validity.valid tactic instead. |
| 00:46 | <TabAtkins> | Man, as soon as I start writing jQuery I get screwed up on PHP. Too much use of the $ glyph. |
| 00:46 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, rats. I'm not sure Opera 9.6 supports validationMessage. |
| 00:47 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 00:50 | <AryehGregor> | I think I've got this working, except validationMessage seems to always be empty. |
| 00:51 | <TabAtkins> | Sweet. And you got it suppressing the native Opera error display? |
| 00:52 | <AryehGregor> | Well, not exactly. |
| 00:52 | <AryehGregor> | I didn't try that. |
| 00:53 | <TabAtkins> | Well we need that. ^_^ I suppose we can defer to ::error existing and letting us display:none it, but I'd rather not if possible. |
| 00:54 | <AryehGregor> | Since Opera only triggers on form submit, you should be able to just stop the form submit to override, I'd assume. |
| 00:54 | <TabAtkins> | Hmm, that's true. |
| 00:54 | <AryehGregor> | How can you dump all an element's attributes to alert()? Or otherwise inspect them? |
| 00:54 | <TabAtkins> | A quick loop through the form, manually checking validity, and cancelling submit on fail. |
| 00:54 | <AryehGregor> | There's a method for that. |
| 00:55 | <TabAtkins> | There is? I don't know. |
| 00:55 | <AryehGregor> | form.checkValidity() |
| 00:55 | <TabAtkins> | didn't you say that checkValidity on an element triggers it to display the native messages, though? |
| 00:55 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 00:56 | <AryehGregor> | The spec doesn't actually say that it does. |
| 00:56 | <TabAtkins> | Yah, but Opera does so, right? |
| 00:56 | <AryehGregor> | On inputs, yes. Forms, dunno. |
| 00:56 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, right. I would *assume* that form.checkValidity just does checkValidity on each element, but I'd need to test. |
| 00:56 | <AryehGregor> | Probably you're right. |
| 01:00 | <AryehGregor> | I think I'm odd. Given that I wasn't able to easily figure out from running JavaScript whether validationMessage is supported, my first inclination was to grep the source code for Opera for "validationMessage". Given that's impossible, my second inclination was to grep the binary. |
| 01:00 | <AryehGregor> | $ grep validationMessage /usr/lib/opera/9.64/opera |
| 01:00 | <AryehGregor> | Binary file /usr/lib/opera/9.64/opera matches |
| 01:00 | <AryehGregor> | So I guess it must have some kind of support, huh? |
| 01:00 | <TabAtkins> | One would think. But perhaps it's just /* Seriously, put in something for validationMessage when I'm less drunk. */ |
| 01:01 | <TabAtkins> | except maybe in swedish. |
| 01:01 | <AryehGregor> | Comments don't make it into the binary. |
| 01:01 | <TabAtkins> | But you didn't find it in the source... strange. |
| 01:01 | <AryehGregor> | . . . in what source? |
| 01:01 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, you *couldn't*. |
| 01:01 | <AryehGregor> | Opera is closed-source. |
| 01:01 | <TabAtkins> | Sorry, misread you. |
| 01:01 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway. |
| 01:02 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, validationMessage exists on the element, but is just the empty string. |
| 01:02 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 01:02 | <TabAtkins> | So they just set it up to match the API, but aren't fully conforming yet. |
| 01:02 | <AryehGregor> | Or I'm doing something wrong. |
| 01:03 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe it's in 10.00. |
| 01:04 | <TabAtkins> | Send me a test page, I"ll check it. |
| 01:04 | <AryehGregor> | onchange="this.checkValidity(); if (!this.validity.valid) { err = document.createElement('div'); err.class='error'; err.appendChild(document.createTextNode(this.validationMessage)); this.parentNode.insertBefore(err, this.nextSibling); } alert(this.validationMessage);" oninput="if (this.validity.valid and this.nextSibling.class == 'error') this.nextSibling.removeNode()" |
| 01:04 | <AryehGregor> | The alert() is for debugging, of course. |
| 01:04 | <TabAtkins> | so you just popped that onto an <input>? |
| 01:05 | <AryehGregor> | A more minimal test case would just be, say: <input pattern=... name=foo onchange="alert(this.validationMessage)"> |
| 01:05 | <AryehGregor> | <!doctype html><title>Test</title><form><input pattern=... name=foo onchange="alert(this.validationMessage)"><input type=submit></form> |
| 01:05 | <AryehGregor> | Seems to always be the empty string. |
| 01:05 | <AryehGregor> | (... is the actual pattern here, not a placeholder :P) |
| 01:06 | <TabAtkins> | Haha, interesting. |
| 01:06 | <TabAtkins> | Also, awesome. |
| 01:06 | <AryehGregor> | Which part? |
| 01:06 | <TabAtkins> | Anyway, ys, 10b2 also gives me the empty string. |
| 01:07 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, the part where ... is a valid pattern |
| 01:07 | <TabAtkins> | even without quotes |
| 01:07 | <AryehGregor> | I was actually using ....* as my pattern, but ... seemed more natural. |
| 01:07 | <AryehGregor> | Heh. |
| 01:07 | <AryehGregor> | I wrote an abstraction layer for MediaWiki that automatically decides whether to add quotes. |
| 01:07 | <AryehGregor> | It's crazy what you don't have to quote. |
| 01:07 | <AryehGregor> | Minimum length of 10: pattern=.{10,} |
| 01:07 | <AryehGregor> | No quotes needed. |
| 01:08 | <AryehGregor> | The only unintuitive character that needs quotes is =. |
| 01:08 | <TabAtkins> | I'd probably quote that anyway. I quote anything that goes beyond alphanums and - |
| 01:08 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, but my abstraction layer automatically doesn't quote it. :) |
| 01:08 | <AryehGregor> | (saves two bytes . . .) |
| 01:09 | <AryehGregor> | That's the funny part. When I saw the HTML output I went "WTF?". |
| 01:09 | <AryehGregor> | I'd probably quote that too if I did it by hand. |
| 01:09 | <TabAtkins> | Hehe |
| 01:10 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway, I think my code is okay proof-of-concept. The only reason it's so long is because DOM methods are so stupidly clumsy. |
| 01:10 | <TabAtkins> | Nod |
| 01:11 | <TabAtkins> | I blame Java. |
| 01:11 | <AryehGregor> | err = document.createElement('div'); err.class='error'; err.appendChild(document.createTextNode(this.validationMessage)); this.parentNode.insertBefore(err, this.nextSibling); |
| 01:11 | <AryehGregor> | vs. something sane like the jQuery you gave. |
| 01:12 | <AryehGregor> | $(this).after("<div class=error>" + this.validationMessage + "</div>"); |
| 01:12 | <TabAtkins> | yup |
| 01:12 | <AryehGregor> | <3 jQuery |
| 01:12 | <TabAtkins> | I didn't program *any* js before jQuery. |
| 01:13 | <AryehGregor> | So anyway, the main flexibility I think you get from this is control over the timing and location of the error message. |
| 01:13 | <AryehGregor> | You're pretty limited in how you style it if you can't control where it will appear, I'd think. |
| 01:13 | <AryehGregor> | You don't know what a good size is, etc. |
| 01:13 | <TabAtkins> | If it's abspos floating in an intelligent area determined by the UA, though, I think that'll generally be good enough. |
| 01:14 | <TabAtkins> | Don't write a novel in the text, of course. |
| 01:15 | <AryehGregor> | Isn't "abspos floating" an oxymoron? |
| 01:15 | <TabAtkins> | Bah, stupid CSS eating all the good english terms. |
| 01:15 | <TabAtkins> | absposed into an intelligent area. |
| 01:16 | <AryehGregor> | Or mysteriously made to appear there, as the case may be. |
| 01:16 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway. What about timing? |
| 01:16 | <AryehGregor> | Neither of us thinks Opera's timing is very good. |
| 01:16 | <AryehGregor> | It should be onchange instead of onsubmit, where that makes sense. |
| 01:16 | <TabAtkins> | I think displaying on submit is fine. I just disagree with the timing of :invalid |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | jgraham: you should make your script grab the sections from the open bugs too, since they provide IDs |
| 01:23 | <TabAtkins> | All right, done with work now, only an hour and a half late.e |
| 01:30 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: would a proposal to change the selectors that match invalid form elements be best in whatwg or www-style? |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | which text do you want to change, Selectors, or HTML5? |
| 01:33 | <TabAtkins> | I don't think that Selectors has any relevant text, so HTML5. So I guess that answers my question. |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | pretty much :-) |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | HTML5 is intending to do whatever selectors says |
| 01:34 | <Hixie> | so if you can interpret selectors in a different way than html5 does, then let me know |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | oh, do you mean :invalid? |
| 01:35 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | that might be in CSS3 UI rather than Selectors |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | i forget where we drew that line |
| 01:35 | <TabAtkins> | :invalid, and :out-of-range (and their converses) |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | i think they're in css3 ui |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | so everything i said, but s/selectors/css3 ui/ |
| 01:36 | <TabAtkins> | Oh yeah, there we go. |
| 01:36 | <TabAtkins> | Of course, the latest draft here is from *2004*. Is tantek even part of www-style anymore? |
| 01:36 | <TabAtkins> | Considering he threw a hissy fit a few months ago and claimed to be unsubscribing, perhaps not? |
| 01:39 | <TabAtkins> | Hrm, looks like I need to raise separate issues in both whatwg *and* www-style. |
| 01:39 | <TabAtkins> | But I already filed the whatwg issue as a spec bug today, so maybe that's okay? |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | i haven't been following css at all recently |
| 01:40 | <TabAtkins> | Eh, that's fine. I don't think we've been doing much relevant to html. |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | i look forward to sticking my head into their wg meeting in november and seeing if they made any progress since i stopped going to the meetings |
| 01:40 | <TabAtkins> | That's the one in the bay area, right? |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | yah |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | you going? |
| 01:40 | <TabAtkins> | I might be going then. ^_^ Just got approved as an Invited Expert this morning. |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | sweet |
| 01:41 | <TabAtkins> | Yus. |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | if you're an htmlwg member, google's offering to pay the w3c's $150 fee for wed-fri |
| 01:41 | <TabAtkins> | Oh man, awesome. |
| 01:41 | <AryehGregor> | Speaking of which, does anyone know what the procedure is for becoming an Invited Expert in the HTML WG? It seems like the bar is pretty low, so I applied, but I don't know when to expect a response. |
| 01:41 | <TabAtkins> | How do I get up on that. |
| 01:41 | <TabAtkins> | Aryeh: it's described over on whatwg.org |
| 01:41 | <AryehGregor> | Or what response to expect. |
| 01:42 | <TabAtkins> | It takes several days. |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jul/0937.html |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: look at one of the whatwg blog entries from 2007 or so |
| 01:42 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, I wasn't part of htmlwg at that point. |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: if i don't get up to the 20-person cap, i might be able to swing getting you the $100 for the css side of things too -- remind me in the e-mail |
| 01:43 | <AryehGregor> | Aha, so I have to e-mail a couple of people in addition to filling out the Invited Expert Application Form? |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: it's a whole Process |
| 01:43 | <TabAtkins> | Any idea what the cut-off on getting in on that is, Hixie? Whether or not I go depends on whether I can scrape up enough by November to head there. I'll probably have enough in my vacation fund by then to get me and my wfie out there. |
| 01:43 | <TabAtkins> | Aryeh: I didn't have to email anyone, though the Process says to. |
| 01:43 | <TabAtkins> | I just waited, and like 10 days later was in. |
| 01:44 | <AryehGregor> | It's been . . . 7 days. |
| 01:44 | <AryehGregor> | So I'll wait a few more. |
| 01:44 | <AryehGregor> | Thanks. |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0363.html |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: (drop me an e-mail if you think it's possible you might want to go, though, so i can reserve you a spot on my list) |
| 01:45 | <TabAtkins> | Mid-September, okay. |
| 01:45 | <TabAtkins> | I'll put the question to the wife tonight, figure out our finances. |
| 01:45 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: It's definitely *possible* that I'd want to go. It's just a matter of money, not will. ^_^ |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | i wonder if, if i get enough people to go, i can say that that gets me out of going |
| 01:46 | Hixie | hates meetings |
| 01:46 | <TabAtkins> | Haha |
| 01:46 | <TabAtkins> | I want a chance to meet people face-to-facee. |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | yeah, the social aspect is nice |
| 01:48 | <TabAtkins> | So, Hixie. I filed a spec bug today (7411) on the selectors matching invalid elements. Should I raise that in an actual email, or is that sufficient? |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | spec bug and e-mail are equivalent to me |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | the only difference is which line they affect: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html |
| 01:49 | <TabAtkins> | k. Should I sign up for bugzilla and add more detail? |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | only if you think there's not enough detail |
| 01:49 | <TabAtkins> | Hmm. Eh, it probably is. How can I get Bugzilla to email me when the bug gets its status changed? |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | add yourself to the cc list |
| 01:50 | <TabAtkins> | Gotcha. |
| 01:55 | <TabAtkins> | All right, further detail given, and cc added. |
| 01:57 | <cardona507> | hixie - are there still 15 seats open? and if so are there qualifications to be involved? |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | there's still plenty of open spots, yes |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Jul/0937.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Aug/0363.html cover everything there is to know, i think |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | ok, i gotta go |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | bbiab |
| 02:06 | <othermaciej_> | where in teh spec are the UA conformance rules for doctype? |
| 02:09 | <TabAtkins> | Is this good enough? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#the-doctype |
| 02:11 | <othermaciej_> | that seems to define the syntax for authors, but not the UA processing requirements (such as what doctypes trigger quirks mode) |
| 02:17 | <othermaciej> | TabAtkins: it seems the only place to define quirks behavior is in a weird implicit way in the parsing algorithm |
| 03:31 | <JonathanNeal> | Hello! |
| 03:36 | <cardona507> | hello |
| 03:41 | <JonathanNeal> | Hey cardona507 |
| 04:11 | <JonathanNeal> | <body><header></header><section><h1>Page Title</h1><p>Hello World!</p></section><footer>Copyright © 2009</footer></body> is a basic html5 page, yes? |
| 04:12 | <JonathanNeal> | Doh, except that I did not put anything in the <header /> |
| 04:16 | <cardona507> | shouldn't it be surrounded by <html></html>? |
| 04:16 | <JonathanNeal> | I meant, within the body. |
| 04:21 | <cardona507> | looks pretty basic to me |
| 04:36 | <JonathanNeal> | Within the header, that would be the header for the site or the page, right? |
| 04:45 | <cardona507> | are you asking if what goes between <header> & </header> is what you see on the page as a header? |
| 05:17 | <JonathanNeal> | cardona, here's a very basic example of a valid html5 page. Is this right? http://pastebin.com/d50828caa |
| 05:21 | <cardona507> | It looks good to me. But I must confess that I am very new to html5 - anyone else care to weigh in? |
| 05:24 | <cardona507> | this might help with your header question: http://boblet.tumblr.com/post/134276674/html5-structure2 |
| 05:26 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea, I've heard that the <nav> does not need to be in the header, ah that part still confused me just a little. |
| 07:31 | <othermaciej> | good evening everyone |
| 07:32 | <foolip> | good morning |
| 07:32 | <JonathanNeal> | good times all |
| 07:33 | <annevk2> | mornings |
| 07:35 | <JonathanNeal> | Is this good, or should the nav be inside the header, http://pastebin.com/d50828caa ? |
| 08:51 | <hsivonen> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253346 is INVALID per HTML5, right? |
| 08:52 | <annevk2> | yes |
| 08:53 | <hsivonen> | annevk2: ok. WONTFIXed. thanks |
| 08:54 | <annevk2> | in theory it's INVALID |
| 08:54 | <annevk2> | well, future-yet-to-be-a-real-standard-theory |
| 08:54 | <hsivonen> | I'm being generous and marking bugs that are valid per HTML4 as WONTFIX |
| 08:55 | othermaciej | hates bugzilla resolutions |
| 08:55 | <annevk2> | heh |
| 08:56 | <othermaciej> | although I guess INCOMPLETE is new, and an improvement |
| 08:56 | <othermaciej> | does REMIND still exist in the latest bugzilla? |
| 08:57 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: IIRC, after a decade or so, it was finally buried |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | in a way, I'm glad that Netscape engineers didn't have the cycles to "fix" all the SGML stuff in the Netscape 6 cycle |
| 08:59 | <othermaciej> | Radar has resolutions including "Software changed", "Feature removed", "Documentation changed", "Duplicate", "Cannot reproduce", "Behaves correctly", "Not to be fixed" and "Insufficient information" |
| 08:59 | <othermaciej> | I always hated having to say "INVALID" for what might be either "behaves correctly" or "insufficient information" |
| 09:00 | <othermaciej> | it feels like something the Master Control Program from TRON would say, not a human mode of communication |
| 09:01 | <annevk2> | spec/docs changed would be a good resolution to have indeed |
| 09:03 | <hsivonen> | yesterday I realized that Radar should have a resolution "Confusing UI" |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | I finally understood what the keyboard identification dialog wanted me to do |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | I had always misread it. |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | to the point of even borrowing another keyboard to bypass it |
| 09:05 | <hsivonen> | maybe I should follow up with the Radar bug I filed about it for the wrong reason the last time round |
| 09:15 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: "confusing UI" is more a category of bug than a resolution... |
| 09:15 | <othermaciej> | specifically the "Usability" classification |
| 09:25 | <Hixie> | REMIND and LATER are two resolutions i argued long and hard to drop |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | i'm amused that i use them now in the w3c bugzilla |
| 09:27 | <foolip_> | Hixie: if you're still confused about what microdata syntax I am proposing, I'm here. |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Did you see the discussion about microdata formats from yesterday |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | foolip_: your ideas about nested subitems don't seem to fit the use cases we have for them |
| 09:29 | <jgraham> | Specifically about using selectors to select on an item without fully qualified names |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | foolip_: microdata is modelling a nested tree |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | foolip_: lists of name-value pairs that can be nested |
| 09:29 | <jgraham> | s/about using/about not beiung able to use/ |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | foolip_: so i don't see what an anonymous child would mean, and modelling it compared to the DOM makes no sense, imho |
| 09:29 | <Hixie> | jgraham: i did not |
| 09:30 | <foolip_> | Hixie: anonymous as in you don't need to give it an itemprop value |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | right, that makes no sense to me |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | it's a name-value pair list |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | the "name" part is integral to what we're modelling |
| 09:31 | <Hixie> | look at the vcard vocabulary |
| 09:31 | <Hixie> | for instance |
| 09:32 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Right so the point was that if you have <span item="com.example"><span itemprop=foo></span><span item="org.example"><span itemprop="foo"></span></span></span> |
| 09:32 | <foolip_> | I have looked at it and don't see why named itemprops which are unnamed items is any clearer than just named items |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | the current model is <div itemprop="name" item="type"> <span itemprop="subname"> subvalue </span> </div> |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | dropping the itemprop="name" part is meaningless imho |
| 09:32 | <jgraham> | And you want to select org.example.foo but not com.example.foo you can't do it without knowing the structure in advance |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | foolip_: i don't understand what you mean |
| 09:33 | <Hixie> | jgraham: org.example.foo? |
| 09:33 | <jgraham> | the itemprop foo of type org.example |
| 09:33 | jgraham | doesn't remember the right terms |
| 09:34 | <Hixie> | jgraham: i can't see a use case where you would want a specific _type_'s subproperty directly like that |
| 09:34 | <foolip_> | Hixie: I'm saying that nested name-value lists are more difficult to understand and use than a simple tree |
| 09:35 | <foolip_> | it makes the DOM API more confusing |
| 09:35 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Well if you want to style all the foo properties of a specific item type, for example |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | foolip_: oh you're suggesting changing the actual underlying data model structure as well?? |
| 09:35 | <jgraham> | It doesn't seem unreasonable |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | foolip_: i wasn't even considering that |
| 09:36 | <foolip_> | Hixie: yes, but it seems a rather minor change |
| 09:36 | <Hixie> | jgraham: don't style microdata. it's not intended for use with styling. things will go badly if you start relying on microdata for styling. |
| 09:36 | <foolip_> | the syntax is largely the same |
| 09:36 | <Hixie> | foolip_: changing an underlying assumption is never a minor change. |
| 09:36 | <Hixie> | foolip_: you have to revisit every design decision that was based on the previous assumption and reconsider the decisions to make sure the new design makes sense again. |
| 09:36 | <Hixie> | foolip_: so what is the data structure you are suggesting? |
| 09:37 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I'm not sure authors will feel the same way |
| 09:37 | <foolip_> | Hixie: simply a tree where each node has string properties and subnodes |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | foolip_: that doesn't seem to be a good fit for the use cases we have. |
| 09:37 | <jgraham> | Also many JS libraries are heavily selector based and people are likely to try using selectors to access microdata items through js |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | foolip_: and we already have that data model anyway -- the DOM itself |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | foolip_: for example, imagine the microdata for a book, which has four vcards associated with it, two for authors, and two for editors. |
| 09:38 | <foolip_> | Hixie: there are no examples where both the itemprop and item would have a type |
| 09:39 | <Hixie> | foolip_: how would you express that in your model? |
| 09:39 | <Hixie> | itemprop doesn't ever have a type |
| 09:39 | <Hixie> | it has a name |
| 09:41 | <foolip_> | Hixie: I would make author/editor part of the subitem or I would add intermediary "authors" and "editors" items |
| 09:42 | <foolip_> | if someone is both an author and an editor I would do the former |
| 09:42 | <Hixie> | could you show the syntax for this? |
| 09:44 | <foolip_> | if you'll allow me to use the DOM-isomorphism for brevity: <book><person type="author"/><person type="editor"/></book> or <book><authors><person/></authors><editors>...</editors></book> |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | i can see how to do it in the DOM |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | but how would you do it in your microdata syntax? |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | i think your sample markup shows a misunderstanding, btw. "author" is a type of "person", but "person" is the type of that object. |
| 09:46 | <foolip_> | the first case: <span item="book"><span item="person"><span itemprop="type">author</span></span></span> |
| 09:46 | <Hixie> | (i don't understand how in your syntax you would say that one "list-of-vcards" is named "authors" and another is named "editors" given that you don't have names for subitems) |
| 09:46 | <Hixie> | wait, you're saying that you'd add fields to the vcard vocabulary just to be able to integrate vcard into other vocabularies? |
| 09:47 | <foolip_> | you'll have to be more specific, this isn't a vcard example |
| 09:47 | <foolip_> | well, we should use <span item="vcard"> instead of person above |
| 09:47 | <Hixie> | you'd add fields to the "person" vocabulary just to be able to integrate it into other vocabularies |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: regarding the Google usability study: are you going to test hCalendar vs. vCal-RDF-in-RDFa vs. vCal-in-microdata? |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: for expressing an event |
| 09:48 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: no, we don't really have the resources to do any more than just a straight forward comparison of maybe three microdata variants at most |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: ok. |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | anyway i really should go to bed |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | foolip_: i don't think your proposals are sound, to be honest |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | foolip_: i think they confuse "type" and "name" in a way that would seriously compromise the mechanism |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | foolip_: maybe we should drop "type" for subitems, though |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | foolip_: i'll think about it |
| 09:51 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 09:51 | <foolip_> | Hixie: if you're unwilling to test the syntax I can't force you, of course, I'm saying that the DOM API etc are very confusing now and this seems to help |
| 09:51 | <foolip_> | let's see what others say |
| 10:54 | <hsivonen> | hmm. 10 billion page views per month through Opera Mini |
| 10:55 | hsivonen | wonders if the default search and bookmark placements pay for all that |
| 10:59 | <jaket> | does opera use that usage data for anything else |
| 11:52 | <ray> | opera is big brother, they use it for everything else |
| 13:26 | <hsivonen> | is http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/widgets-vm/Overview.src.html new stuff or a spec for existing behaviors? |
| 13:26 | <hsivonen> | does e.g. Mobile Safari already support the events when the user turns an iPhone sideways? |
| 13:29 | <Rik|work> | hsivonen: http://developer.apple.com/safari/library/documentation/AppleApplications/Reference/SafariWebContent/HandlingEvents/HandlingEvents.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006511-SW16 |
| 13:31 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: should we have onorientationchange as an attribute in HTML5? |
| 13:57 | gsnedders|work | throws a dog at Hixie |
| 14:27 | <annevk3> | http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/124 and comments is quite a good read |
| 14:33 | <takkaria> | yeah |
| 14:34 | <takkaria> | it's interesting because the author appears to actually like RDFa yet it still saying useful, constructive things |
| 14:36 | <jgraham> | I guess there is no special reason that some of the RDFa community behaving in unproductive ways means that no one else from the RDFa community is capable of rational discourse |
| 14:52 | <adactio> | I could do with some help with some examples I've made for the outline algorithm. If anybody has five minutes to run a sanity check, 'twould be much appreciated. |
| 14:52 | <adactio> | These three document fragments: |
| 14:52 | <adactio> | http://pastebin.com/d4e7dca13 |
| 14:52 | <adactio> | http://pastebin.com/d6a71719d |
| 14:52 | <adactio> | http://pastebin.com/d1dfc8ac0 |
| 14:52 | <adactio> | *should* have the same outline (I believe). |
| 14:52 | <adactio> | Can anyone confirm/deny? |
| 14:53 | <annevk2> | did you check with the outline checker? |
| 14:54 | <adactio> | annevk2: I did not. Where is this outline checker of which you speak? |
| 14:54 | <zcorpan> | http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/ |
| 14:54 | <adactio> | Many thanks. |
| 14:54 | <zcorpan> | bug gsnedders|work if you want a textarea |
| 14:55 | <adactio> | Superb. That worked a treat. |
| 14:55 | <adactio> | Great resource. |
| 14:58 | gsnedders|work | grumbles |
| 14:58 | <gsnedders|work> | That's the fourth time or so today people have said to bug me for new features in public web services… |
| 14:58 | <jgraham> | gsnedders|work: I asked for a textarea months ago |
| 14:58 | <gsnedders|work> | jgraham: So did zcorpan, and he did it first. |
| 14:59 | <jgraham> | You can't claim you don't have time whilst simultanously wanting to play minigolf |
| 14:59 | <gsnedders|work> | Obviously, you can tell from the fact I haven't done it that I don't like zcorpan |
| 14:59 | <gsnedders|work> | jgraham: But minigolf is more fun than sitting around coding, and I can pretend to like zcorpan then :P |
| 15:01 | jgraham | is reasonably sure that gsnedders|work is overestimating the amusment of trying to get a small ball into a distant hole that is situatued atop a minature windmill |
| 15:01 | <gsnedders|work> | jgraham: You obviously haven't been to the Himalayas! |
| 15:02 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 15:03 | <gsnedders|work> | jgraham: http://www.flickr.com/photos/erase/1270935046/ |
| 15:04 | <gsnedders|work> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/29781620@N00/3061425628/ |
| 15:06 | <jcranmer> | on those kinds of courses |
| 15:06 | <jcranmer> | I prefer the strong powerful lob |
| 15:07 | <jcranmer> | the last time I played minigolf, my ball flew out of the course, hit a lamppost, and landed in the green right next to the hole |
| 15:07 | <jcranmer> | I wondered whether or not that should be considered an out-of-bounds penalty |
| 15:07 | <jcranmer> | as it didn't *stop* out of bounds |
| 15:07 | <gsnedders|work> | Well, from memory, it is only where it comes to rest that matters |
| 15:08 | <gsnedders|work> | (YMMV, I'm only a guy from St Andrews) |
| 18:38 | <dbaron> | _sheriff |
| 20:45 | <hallvors> | who broke the wonderful http://www.whatwg.org/HTML5 shortcut? :-p |
| 20:45 | <hallvors> | ..or did I just make it up? |
| 20:45 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: Lowercase html5 |
| 20:47 | <Dashiva> | And you can skip the www. for a shortercut |
| 20:48 | <gsnedders> | And most browsers let you omit the http:// |
| 20:49 | <hallvors> | LOL. thanks, gsnedders. the site added www and the browser added http:// indeed |
| 20:49 | <hallvors> | (looking at the textarea maxlength issue btw) |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | Ah |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: I dunno if there are still sites broken by that, as the one in the URL field had gone when I tried it earlier. |
| 20:50 | <hallvors> | it's funny how jQuery.validate explicitly detects some presumably bogus values |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | jQuery.validate works now |
| 20:51 | <hallvors> | hm, IRC isn't JavaScript-friendly.. |
| 20:51 | <hallvors> | maxlength may be returned as -1, 2147483647 (IE) and 524288 (safari) for text inputs |
| 20:51 | <hallvors> | it says |
| 20:51 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, I saw |
| 20:51 | <gsnedders> | We return -1 |
| 20:52 | <gsnedders> | Which is interesting, as I'd expect it is undefined |
| 20:52 | <gsnedders> | (whereas maxLength is 0) |
| 20:52 | <annevk3> | they support maxlength in addition to maxLength? |
| 20:52 | <gsnedders> | No, they only use maxlength now |
| 20:53 | <gsnedders> | They used to use maxLength, which breaks Opera 9+ |
| 20:53 | <annevk3> | I was replying to what hallvors was suggesting |
| 20:53 | <annevk3> | if it returns something in those browsers... |
| 20:53 | <gsnedders> | I don't think it's that simple :) |
| 20:57 | <hallvors> | as far as I can see, the spec doesn't say what the browser should return for element.maxLength if there is no maxlength attribute |
| 20:57 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: 0 |
| 20:58 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: Follow xref for 'reflects' |
| 20:58 | <gsnedders> | (This is one horrible bit of how HTML5 is spec'd) |
| 20:58 | <hallvors> | it also doesn't say what the implementation should do if the value attribute contains too many characters (more than maxlength allows) - or? |
| 20:59 | <hallvors> | gsnedders: thanks but I don't even find the "reflects" link . Looking here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#the-maxlength-attribute |
| 20:59 | gsnedders | hopes he doesn't hit the crashing bug |
| 21:00 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: That's the HTML attribute |
| 21:01 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: You want #dom-textarea-maxlength |
| 21:01 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: And that's the dfn for input anyway |
| 21:02 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: "…if the attribute is absent, the default value must be returned instead, or 0 if there is no default value." |
| 21:03 | <hallvors> | found it now, thanks. Also found the fix in jQuery's code I think. |
| 21:04 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: jQuery.validate gets maxlength from DOM not maxLength (note case) |
| 21:04 | <hallvors> | gsnedders: you could be a bit more detailed in your BTS comments :) |
| 21:04 | <gsnedders> | Did I not explain this all, just concisely? :P |
| 21:05 | <gsnedders> | (Which issue is it anyway?) |
| 21:05 | <hallvors> | CORE-23563 |
| 21:06 | <hallvors> | and I think the spec should make the default return value for maxLength -1 when the attribute isn't specified |
| 21:06 | <gsnedders> | If it changes, it'd need to change for all things using unsigned long |
| 21:06 | <hallvors> | otherwise we break all sites using jQuery.validate 1.3 |
| 21:07 | <hallvors> | why can't it just be added as a special case in #dom-textarea-maxlength rather than it pointing to reflect? |
| 21:07 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: If seems ugly to change it in one place |
| 21:07 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: http://www.theplace.org.uk/codelib/js/jquery/jquery.validate.js uses maxLength and maxlength, the maxLength case is gone now |
| 21:07 | <hallvors> | gsnedders: compatibility is all about being ugly :-o |
| 21:08 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: I want to try and get an idea of how much breaks with it as zero, if it's one site… |
| 21:08 | <annevk2> | or generalizing things into a new datatype :-o |
| 21:08 | <hallvors> | if we follow the spec, we'll have to do it for <input>.maxLength too |
| 21:08 | <gsnedders> | I mean, we've been shipping it since Opera 9, and AFAIK that's the only site we ever got the issue reported on |
| 21:09 | <othermaciej> | h everybody |
| 21:09 | <hallvors> | so it would break on all <input> validation too |
| 21:09 | <annevk2> | hey othermaciej |
| 21:10 | <hallvors> | even a few sites using 1.3 (+ other versions?) would cause some trouble there |
| 21:10 | <annevk2> | hallvors, so when the attribute is not specified you want it to return -1 rather than 0? |
| 21:10 | <annevk2> | hallvors, and this is what other browsers are already doing? |
| 21:10 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: Nothing else already does. Only we support WF2, remember? :P |
| 21:11 | <gsnedders> | annevk2: (They all return undefined, therefore) |
| 21:11 | <hallvors> | annevk2: exactly. We're still shipping <input>.maxLength = -1, seems to be the default for other browsers too. textarea.maxLength should be consistent |
| 21:11 | <annevk2> | I thought we were talking about <input>.maxLength as well gsnedders |
| 21:11 | <gsnedders> | Is that not WF2? |
| 21:11 | <annevk2> | no |
| 21:11 | <gsnedders> | Oh, duh, true |
| 21:11 | gsnedders | is half asleep |
| 21:12 | <annevk2> | well me too, but I'm right :p |
| 21:13 | <othermaciej> | hi annevk2 |
| 21:13 | <gsnedders> | Hmm, spec says input.maxLength should give 0, I guess if everything gives -1 the spec needs changing |
| 21:13 | <gsnedders> | And then it'd be nice for textarea.maxLength to be consistent with that |
| 21:13 | <hallvors> | Certainly. Changing <input>.maxLength to 0 by default might break stuff. |
| 21:13 | <gsnedders> | It will, almost certainly |
| 21:13 | <hallvors> | - *will* break jQuery.validate version 1.3 |
| 21:14 | <gsnedders> | Because there's far more deployed content using input.maxLength than textarea.maxLength |
| 21:14 | <annevk2> | so Opera and Firefox are -1 |
| 21:14 | <annevk2> | WebKit defaults to maxvalue |
| 21:14 | <annevk2> | I'll file a bug on HTML5 |
| 21:14 | <hallvors> | (I need a quick course in how the HTML5 spec is structured by the way #-) ) |
| 21:14 | <gsnedders> | hallvors: That's a dark art :) |
| 21:14 | <hallvors> | it keeps confusing me :-p |
| 21:15 | <annevk2> | hallvors, maybe I should do one of those for QA when I'm in Oslo... |
| 21:15 | <gsnedders> | Or maybe Engineering Seminar? |
| 21:15 | hallvors | thinks Google should pay Hixie for hitting the road with a spec-reading course |
| 21:16 | <jgraham> | Maybe Hixie should give "Enterprise" spec-reading courses and charge $1500+ per person |
| 21:19 | <annevk2> | hallvors, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7427 |
| 21:20 | <hallvors> | Thanks Anne :) |
| 21:51 | annevk2 | takes some time to read http://blog.foolip.org/2009/08/23/microformats-vs-rdfa-vs-microdata/ (finally...) |
| 21:56 | <Dashiva> | "Following James Graham’s suggestion, I have registered mantic.se for fun reverse DNS identifiers like se.mantic.banana. Mostly for fun, don’t take it too seriously…" |
| 21:56 | <Dashiva> | Darn, I'm too late |
| 22:06 | <foolip> | Dashiva: hehe, there will be others |
| 22:06 | <foolip> | plus I'll give it to you if you find a use for it |
| 22:07 | <annevk2> | ne.an is apparently too hard to get and might be expired in 2010 :) |
| 22:08 | <foolip> | with the microdata2 proposal hidden in SVN it looks like short names won't be THAT important anyway |
| 22:08 | <Dashiva> | Haiti! |
| 22:08 | <foolip> | but fun domain names are still fun :) |
| 22:09 | <Dashiva> | foolip: Well, that proposal seems to be flirting with prefixes |
| 22:10 | <foolip> | some kind of namespaces or scoping anyway |
| 22:10 | <foolip> | no prefix though, more like a C++ using statement |
| 22:11 | <foolip> | or the with keyword in visual basic (I think) |
| 22:11 | <Dashiva> | Yeah |
| 22:17 | <annevk2> | can someone pm me the password (again) for @whatwg? |
| 22:26 | <Dashiva> | Did someone run the topic through translationparty? |
| 22:30 | <annevk2> | yes |
| 22:31 | <TabAtkins> | Actually through translationparty? |
| 22:31 | <TabAtkins> | http://www.translationparty.com/#3406620 |
| 22:31 | <annevk2> | yes |
| 22:31 | <Dashiva> | You could use translationparty as a hash function |
| 22:32 | <paulirish> | "Google recently improved their translation service. That's great news for people who need to translate something accurately, but bad news for hilariousness. Rest assured, we're looking into alternative methods for mangling language." |
| 22:32 | <Dashiva> | It's one-way most of the time |
| 22:32 | <TabAtkins> | Heehee |
| 22:34 | <TabAtkins> | Google has recently been translated into service improvements. To translate all the bad news is good news for people Hilariousness. Security second one language, and other qualifications. |
| 22:36 | <jcranmer> | http://www.translationparty.com/#3407079 |
| 22:36 | <jcranmer> | damn it |
| 22:37 | <jcranmer> | "Wikipedia is God" no long equilibriums at something like "God is not Wikipedia" |
| 22:38 | <TabAtkins> | I need to go install a japanese font so I can actually view the text rather than just little unicode boxes. |
| 22:39 | <jcranmer> | "Sir, I would like to inform you that your credit card is no longer valid." manages to drop the `no longer' part |
| 22:39 | <jcranmer> | ooh, infinite loop! |
| 22:42 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, the translation I posted above was infinite-looping with "for" and "to" swapping each time. |
| 23:01 | <hallvors> | fun site. wonder why they use just English-Japanese-English though. |
| 23:04 | <Dashiva> | hallvors: Maximum confusion |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | so... standards suck interviews accessibility people, accessibility people even ReTweet the announcement, and nobody complains about lack of transcripts? |
| 23:21 | <annevk3> | Steve Faulkner published a transcript on his blog when we interviewed him, hopefully Bruce Lawson does the same |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | i think roy and i live on different planets |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | or we speak a different language |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | or something |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | i so utterly don't understand what he's saying |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | of course he refuses to explain himself |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | so... |
| 23:35 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I did not find his link to the dictionary edifying |
| 23:35 | <TabAtkins> | Damn, maciej beat me to it. I was just drafting a nearly identical response. |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | well my position is that a prerequisite for me to respond to roy's feedback be that i understand wtf he's talking about, but he refuses to continue responding to the thread in which we were making progress towards me understanding that |
| 23:38 | <vvv> | Is there support of ARGB in HTML 5? |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | what do you mean by ARGB? |
| 23:39 | <vvv> | RGB with an alpha channel |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | <canvas> supports RGBA, yes |
| 23:40 | <vvv> | And <input type=color>? |
| 23:42 | <TabAtkins> | That's UA-specific, I believe. |
| 23:46 | <vvv> | Spec says it's "simple color". Is there a reason why there can't be an "alpha" attribute to specify whether alpha channel is needed? |
| 23:48 | <Lachy_> | vvv, alpha channel can be specified with a separate control, if it's needed |
| 23:48 | <vvv> | Lachy_: then it would be impossible to include it in color well |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | vvv: no, <input type=color> doesn't do alpha currently |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | vvv: maybe in a future version |
| 23:51 | <vvv> | Where should I post a request? |
| 23:53 | <Lachy> | vvv, whatwg⊙wo or public-html⊙wo |
| 23:53 | <vvv> | Thanks |
| 23:56 | <Lachy> | vvv, which applications are you aware of that include an alpha channel in the same control as the colour picker? |
| 23:56 | <vvv> | Lachy: GTK has such feature |
| 23:57 | <Lachy> | any windows or mac apps? |
| 23:57 | <vvv> | Haven't seen such thing in Windows |
| 23:57 | <Lachy> | or can you find a screenshot of such a control somewhere and post a link? |
| 23:59 | <Lachy> | vvv, if common native apps rarely, if ever, include an alpha channel in the colour picker, I'm trying to understand why a web app would need to? |