| 00:16 | <annevk2> | Hixie, can I publish your old CSSValues proposal? |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | publish? |
| 00:18 | <annevk2> | make it public somehow |
| 00:18 | <annevk2> | not sure where to put it |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | isn't it already public |
| 00:18 | <annevk2> | no it's member only |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | url? |
| 00:18 | <annevk2> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2002OctDec/0264.html |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | yes go ahead |
| 00:26 | <annevk2> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009Nov/0007.html |
| 00:26 | <annevk2> | hopefully I didn't make any mistakes when copying |
| 00:26 | <annevk2> | oh, line wrapping, but who cares |
| 00:51 | <JonathanNeal> | Goodnight everybody!!! -_- |
| 05:35 | <othermaciej> | hello everyone |
| 05:52 | <Hixie> | dbaron: your blog post has a typo in the last paragraph (they're/their) |
| 05:53 | <dbaron> | Hixie, fixed, thanks |
| 05:53 | <Hixie> | np |
| 07:27 | <cardona507> | hello -anyone awake? |
| 07:27 | <Hixie> | vaguely |
| 07:28 | <othermaciej> | sort of |
| 07:32 | <cardona507> | i am interested in the 3d tomorrow morning |
| 07:34 | <cardona507> | what browser are they showing it in? |
| 07:35 | <othermaciej> | dunno! |
| 07:35 | <othermaciej> | something that supports WebGL presumably |
| 07:38 | <cardona507> | my hotel's web connection sux - :-/ |
| 07:47 | <hsivonen> | how is X3D+JS different from any script-specific markup? |
| 07:48 | <hsivonen> | e.g. the the stuff Bespin uses to initialize its layout |
| 07:48 | <hsivonen> | or Ubiquity XForms |
| 08:06 | <othermaciej> | it's different from Bespin in that there is a pre-existing format with which they wish to be compatible |
| 08:06 | <othermaciej> | (though not different from a script-base XForms impl in that way) |
| 08:31 | <peslafk> | http://twitter.com/fronteers09/statuses/5474171543 |
| 08:36 | <othermaciej> | an optimist! |
| 08:42 | <peslafk> | It seems that Douglas is having a rant on html5 and the W3C at the Fronteers congres |
| 09:10 | <hsivonen> | Crockford? |
| 09:12 | <hsivonen> | what's the right way to make MacPorts guntar the default tar on Snow Leopard? |
| 09:13 | <hsivonen> | IIRC, earlier I just have the gnu stuff installed and it took precedence without me touching files that belong to the system or to macports |
| 09:14 | <hsivonen> | hmm. MacPorts has edited my .profile twice |
| 09:15 | <hsivonen> | apparently gnutar in macports is now called 'gnutar' instead of 'tar' |
| 09:16 | <hsivonen> | grr. is this some kind of GPL hate on Apple's part? not shipping gnutar by default |
| 09:16 | <hsivonen> | it's like on ancient Solaris system where you had to ask for gnutar instead of the lousy tar |
| 09:16 | <hsivonen> | *systems |
| 09:18 | <hsivonen> | woohoo. at last some action on enabling Java profiling in Eclipse on Mac OS X: http://wiki.eclipse.org/Agent_Controller_on_MAC_OS |
| 09:26 | <othermaciej> | what is Fronteers? |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | and why does Doug hate HTML5? |
| 09:27 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: Apple leans towards BSD userland utilties when they are not grossly deficient comapred to the GNU version |
| 09:28 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: as I understand it, he doesn't like the way Same Origin works when you include different-Origin scripts |
| 09:28 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: that is, if you include a mashup script from another site, it gets to run in your Origin |
| 09:29 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: that was indeed a grave error in the long-ago past that we now can't fix... |
| 09:29 | <peslafk> | hsivonen: Crockford, yes |
| 09:29 | <peslafk> | othermaciej: It's a dutch frontend engineering club |
| 09:30 | <peslafk> | othermaciej: http://twitter.com/#search?q=fronteers09%20crockford |
| 09:31 | <peslafk> | And all this is happening @ http://fronteers.nl/congres/2009/information |
| 09:33 | <othermaciej> | I've been busy this week at TPAC trying to influence what's in HTML5 instead of sniping from the sidelines |
| 09:35 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: does he really seriously think it's in any way feasible to change that at this point? |
| 09:35 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I mean, I guess it would be cool to have *a* way to have scripts from a foreign site that don't run in your origin, but HTML5 has sandboxed iframes for that |
| 09:36 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: I think it's better if I don't try to speculate what he really believes. |
| 09:36 | <othermaciej> | fair enough |
| 09:37 | <peslafk> | It was a bit of a rant, with non-argumented oneliners |
| 09:41 | <erlehmann> | peslafk, so why does he hate it ? after all, who could be better HTML devs than browser people ? |
| 09:41 | <hsivonen> | http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/02/21/the-bolero-of-troll |
| 09:42 | <peslafk> | erlehmann: I failed to really see his points, as html5 is only a spec and the browser vendors are the ones implementing. Ranting should really be aimed at them |
| 09:43 | <peslafk> | erlehmann: He stated that the more complicated the DOM is, the more insecure it'll be. And "html5 adds stuff to the DOM". |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | I've been reading http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coders-Work-Reflections-Craft-Programming/dp/1430219483 |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | in that book, Crockford gets some book space for talking about his ideals for the Web |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | but he doesn't propose a realistic path for getting there |
| 09:46 | <Philip`> | Does he propose an unrealistic path? |
| 09:46 | <othermaciej> | adding features to the Web (whether DOM or not) is always a potential security risk |
| 09:46 | <othermaciej> | but the alternative is stagnation |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: "make it smaller" |
| 09:48 | <jgraham> | Your approach to the future of the web will fail because: (x) It requires a mass migration of existing content to fit the new model |
| 09:48 | <jgraham> | You're right, we need a chart |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | (the whole thing felt quite out of place in the book, btw) |
| 09:50 | <peslafk> | http://twitter.com/pesla/status/5475096734 |
| 09:51 | <peslafk> | Thanks for the URL hsivonen. |
| 09:51 | <hsivonen> | peslafk: you're welcome |
| 10:00 | <erlehmann> | peslafk, what does he want instead ? |
| 10:00 | <peslafk> | erlehmann: There is no counter proposal |
| 10:01 | <erlehmann> | so its more liek U ALL SUCK LOL |
| 10:13 | <Philip`> | http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/ - "Names beginning with the string "xml", or with any string which would match (('X'|'x') ('M'|'m') ('L'|'l')), are reserved for standardization in this or future versions of this specification." |
| 10:13 | <Philip`> | http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-names/ - "A namespace (or more precisely, a namespace binding) is declared using a family of reserved attributes. Such an attribute's name must either be xmlns or begin xmlns:." |
| 10:13 | <Philip`> | That seems a bit contradictory |
| 10:14 | <Philip`> | given that "this or future versions of this specification" != "any XML related specification" |
| 10:30 | zcorpan_ | can't connect to http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg⊙lwo/msg18335.html |
| 10:31 | zcorpan_ | uses google cache |
| 12:59 | <Dashiva> | "It would be nice if there were audio or video [from TPAC]". |
| 12:59 | <Dashiva> | Have we learned nothing? |
| 13:00 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: Where is that from? |
| 13:01 | <Dashiva> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009Nov/0154.html |
| 13:04 | <csarven1> | Consider <dl><dt>Full name</dt><dd>Toby Inkster</dd></dl> <dl><dt>Location</dt><dd>UK</dd></dl> vs. <span>Toby Inkster</span> <span>UK</span>, does the context help the screen reader user? |
| 13:04 | <Dashiva> | Which context? |
| 13:05 | <csarven> | Full name, Location |
| 13:05 | <jgraham> | csarven: Depending on what you are asking, I doubt it |
| 13:05 | <csarven> | Presumably one would know that 'Toby Inkster' is a person because it suggests 'Full name' |
| 13:05 | <Dashiva> | UK isn't completely obvious |
| 13:05 | <csarven> | Ok.. say.. "Texas" |
| 13:06 | <csarven> | <span>Texas</span> <span>Texas</span> |
| 13:06 | <jgraham> | csarven: Presumably one would know that in the same way that a non-screenreader user would |
| 13:06 | <jgraham> | By the general context of the page |
| 13:06 | <jgraham> | If it's not obvious from the general context then yes it is better to be explicit |
| 13:06 | <csarven> | It is a profile page |
| 13:07 | <jgraham> | It seems quite easy to decide. Just read the page aloud to someone and see if they understand it |
| 13:07 | <csarven> | well, when you have several data piled up, it gets harder |
| 13:08 | <csarven> | It is like saying "foo bar baz" |
| 13:08 | <jgraham> | I don't understand why this would be any harder for a screenreader user than anyone else |
| 13:08 | hsivonen | neither |
| 13:08 | <jgraham> | (apart from the general difficulty of having to use a screenreader) |
| 13:08 | <csarven> | Because the information is read linearly |
| 13:09 | <erlehmann> | csarven, use a microdata facility for that? |
| 13:09 | <jgraham> | Are you saying that there are significant visual clues that would help disambiguate? |
| 13:09 | <csarven> | erlehmann I don't want to leave out microformats/microdata/rdfa discussion |
| 13:09 | <csarven> | Just plain HTML |
| 13:10 | <erlehmann> | did you mean: i WANT to leave out |
| 13:10 | <csarven> | jgraham I think so. |
| 13:10 | <erlehmann> | just sayin … |
| 13:10 | <csarven> | erlehmann Oops :) |
| 13:10 | <csarven> | Yes, I want to leave that out for now |
| 13:10 | <jgraham> | Anyway, I stand by what I said. Read it aloud to someone. If they understand then it is fine. If not then it is not fine |
| 13:10 | <csarven> | heh |
| 13:11 | hsivonen | gathers the courage to look at nested document.write line numbers again |
| 13:12 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen, You'll regret it :P |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | hmm. what's a good way to cause a script error that doesn't stop the execution of the script |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | or warning |
| 13:13 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: document.all in gecko |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: thanks! |
| 13:14 | hsivonen | downgrades the test case to quirks mode |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | sigh. my line number patch is still horribly wrong |
| 17:18 | <JonathanNeal> | Goodday everybody! \o/ |
| 17:30 | <nessy> | moring |
| 21:41 | <yoshu> | I'm second guessing my implementation of HTML5, would anyone care to comment the markup of this page http://beta.tucsonlabs.com/articles ?? |
| 21:42 | <JonathanNeal> | yoshu, I will. |
| 21:42 | <yoshu> | JonathanNeal: thanks |
| 21:43 | <yoshu> | I wasn't sure if I should separate each entry into a section or if it would work as is |
| 21:43 | <JonathanNeal> | What's this about NON_INITIAL_DOT_SEGMENT |
| 21:44 | <JonathanNeal> | I haven't seen that before. |
| 21:44 | <JonathanNeal> | I'm wondering if it is because of your /./ in the url? |
| 21:45 | <JonathanNeal> | It's up to you whether or not you want to wrap your header, aside, and article into a single section or article. |
| 21:45 | <yoshu> | JonathanNeal: I took the /./ out - didn't realize that was a problem |
| 21:46 | <TabAtkins> | Has anyone seen Lachy yet today? Is he still alive? |
| 21:46 | <yoshu> | JonathanNeal: thanks, I thought I could do without the extra markup, but wasn't sure if it was correct |
| 21:47 | <JonathanNeal> | Your usage of h3.excerpt is kinda weird to me. |
| 21:48 | <yoshu> | JonathanNeal: that's left over from my previous design, I'll probably be replacing it with <p> |
| 21:48 | <JonathanNeal> | By sticking your heading in the aside, your article doesn't have a heading itself. Whereas I might have wrapped the whole <header>, <aside>, and <article> in one larger <article>, replacing the inner <article> with something else. |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: he was on irc briefly earlier |
| 21:49 | <JonathanNeal> | I really didn't look it over too carefuly, but I always check against http://html5.validator.nu/ http://validator.w3.org/ and http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/ |
| 21:49 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Did he seem okay? |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | he didn't talk |
| 21:49 | <JonathanNeal> | I don't design to meet thoses tests, but I use those as guides to help me. |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | so no.... |
| 21:49 | <TabAtkins> | Well, he was alive enough to get on IRC. Hrm. |
| 21:50 | gsnedders_ | ought to update that |
| 21:50 | <yoshu> | JonathanNeal: the header isn't inside the aside, but thanks for the help, and I'll check out those links |
| 21:50 | <JonathanNeal> | yoshu, I said I would move them all into one <article> |
| 21:50 | <gsnedders_> | You can get at contentDocument of an iframe regardless of whether it's cross-origin, right? |
| 21:50 | <gsnedders_> | iframe interaction has no limitations based on origins, right? |
| 21:50 | <gsnedders_> | (both ways) |
| 21:51 | <JonathanNeal> | and by "your heading in the aside" I meant the h3, not the <header><h1> |
| 21:52 | <yoshu> | JonathanNeal: yeah it would probably make more sense to do that. - gotcha on the h3 tag |
| 21:53 | <JonathanNeal> | :-) it looks good though, yea. |
| 21:53 | <yoshu> | JonathanNeal: thanks :) |
| 21:54 | <jgraham> | gsnedders_: There are some cross origin restrictions on iframes |
| 21:55 | <gsnedders_> | jgraham: What? |
| 21:55 | <jgraham> | Well a child iframe can't read properties from a different origin parent |
| 21:55 | <annevk2> | TabAtkins, he's okayish |
| 21:55 | <annevk2> | Lachy, ^^ |
| 21:55 | <jgraham> | I don't recall what the restrictions the other way are but I guess there must be some |
| 21:56 | <jgraham> | Otherwise you could load a site into an iframe and read the DOM which could contain arbitary sensitive data |
| 21:57 | jgraham | wonders what is wrong with Lachy |
| 21:57 | <gsnedders_> | Section 6.3.1? |
| 21:57 | gsnedders_ | guesses effects of drink |
| 21:57 | <Lachy> | jgraham, I was a little sick last night. I'm getting better now |
| 21:57 | <TabAtkins> | annevk2: Thanks, that's reassuring. |
| 21:57 | <jgraham> | gsnedders_: I don't have the spec open right now |
| 21:57 | <Lachy> | I suspect it was food poisening |
| 21:58 | <Lachy> | annevk2, was there something specific you were pointing me at? |
| 21:58 | jgraham | decides it is too late at night to try and understand imaginary namespaces |
| 21:58 | <annevk2> | da question |
| 21:58 | <annevk2> | try to understand unicorns |
| 21:58 | <annevk2> | it's the key to TPAC |
| 21:58 | <annevk2> | at least this year |
| 21:59 | <gsnedders_> | jgraham: You don't have the spec open? Wow. What's wrong with you? :P |
| 21:59 | <Dashiva> | Has anyone found lastweek yet? |
| 21:59 | <annevk2> | well, or narwhals if you're Hixie |
| 21:59 | <TabAtkins> | UnicornML is the breakout technology of TPAC. |
| 21:59 | <Dashiva> | Or rather, the fake one |
| 21:59 | <annevk2> | only the real |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | gsnedders_: I have to keep rebooting my laptop and it is slow to load |
| 21:59 | Lachy | isn't sure which question |
| 21:59 | <Dashiva> | annevk2: Was he under the couch? |
| 22:00 | <gsnedders_> | jgraham: Seemingly you can access the frames attribute, which is odd |
| 22:00 | <annevk2> | let me just say that it was not pretty |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders_> | jgraham: So you can get at sibling browsing contexts, but only do anything with them if they're same-origin. Wow. |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders_> | That's screwy. |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders_> | Hmm, I can't see what doesn't forbid contentWindow from working. |
| 22:04 | <jgraham> | gsnedders_: You can get at the browsing context but you can't read the properties |
| 22:04 | <gsnedders_> | So you can't get at the document, for example? |
| 22:05 | <jgraham> | So I guess if you have A -> B -> C whre A and C are same origin than A can read C's DOM but not B's |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders_> | So I can't do var f = document.createElement("iframe"); f.location="http://example.com";; f.contentDocument.getElementByTagName("html")[0]? |
| 22:05 | <jgraham> | gsnedders_: iirc no |
| 22:06 | <jgraham> | gsnedders_: I think it would be a security hole if you could |
| 22:06 | <jgraham> | because I could load your.bank.example in an iframe and transfer money to my account, for example |
| 22:07 | <jgraham> | (assuming an existing session and no extra prevention measures on the banks side) |
| 22:08 | <gsnedders_> | Right, I guess that's true |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders_> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cbody%3E%3Ciframe%3E%3C%2Fiframe%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Avar%20iframe%20%3D%20window%5B0%5D%3B%0Aiframe.location%20%3D%20'http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com'%0Aiframe.onload%20%3D%20function()%7B%0Aw(%22Foo%22)%0A%7D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E%0A |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders_> | How come that outputs nothing to log? |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders_> | Oh, duh |
| 22:20 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: can i forward http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20091106#l-305 to the xml core wg? |
| 22:27 | <Dashiva> | I wonder if krijnh has stats on who annotates the logs |
| 22:30 | <zcorpan> | i do |
| 22:30 | <zcorpan> | there you go, a datum |
| 22:30 | <Dashiva> | annotations(zcorpan,all time) > 0 |
| 22:31 | <Dashiva> | That's so useful! |
| 22:33 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Feel free to do so, if it seems worth caring about |
| 22:35 | <Dashiva> | zcorpan: I would be interested in hearing their non-response, at least |
| 22:35 | <zcorpan> | sent |
| 23:03 | <zcorpan> | Dashiva: got a reply |
| 23:09 | <Dashiva> | So they augment it in a completely optional way |
| 23:10 | <Philip`> | They agument it in such a way that they are either the XML spec, or are a future version of it? |
| 23:10 | <Philip`> | s/gu/ug/ |
| 23:12 | <Dashiva> | Imagine there's a set of XML n.5th editions, which is XML nth edition + namespaces (delta spec) |
| 23:15 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: 5th edition? Nooooo! |
| 23:16 | <Philip`> | Oh, whoops, n.5th |
| 23:24 | <gsnedders> | How do you reorder windows in irssi? |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: /quit and then restart and open the windows in the right order |
| 23:33 | <mpilgrim> | can someone answer an html5lib question? |
| 23:33 | <gsnedders> | Are we talking Python or Ruby or PHP? |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: or, like, /win move 10 or something |
| 23:34 | <mpilgrim> | parsing this file: http://hg.diveintopython3.org/hgweb.cgi/raw-file/tip/index.html |
| 23:35 | <mpilgrim> | triggers the end-tag-too-early-ignored {'name': 'form'} on line 16 |
| 23:35 | gsnedders | notes the impl isn't up to date with the spec (but hopefully will be by the end of this weekend) |
| 23:35 | <mpilgrim> | i don't understand what that error means, or how to fix it |
| 23:35 | <mpilgrim> | the file validates (according to validator.nu), so i'm confused |
| 23:37 | <zcorpan> | mpilgrim: from the message it looks like html5lib didn't expect your </form> tag |
| 23:37 | <Philip`> | mpilgrim: That markup seems quite inconsistent - most whitespace is optional so you should get rid of all those newlines that are wasting precious bytes |
| 23:39 | <gsnedders> | mpilgrim: I guess if it is valid that is a bug in html5lib |
| 23:41 | <mpilgrim> | Philip`: the newlines are stripped out during the publication process |
| 23:41 | <mpilgrim> | compare: http://diveintopython3.org/ |
| 23:44 | <zcorpan> | mpilgrim: how many new lines are stripped? you can have 86 new lines and remove the comment at the top and have the same total number of bytes |
| 23:46 | <zcorpan> | maybe with gzip you could have less bytes if you use newlines without the comment |
| 23:46 | <Philip`> | You could save even more bytes by deleting a chapter |
| 23:47 | <Philip`> | Get rid of, I don't know, maybe the "XML" chapter and then you'll get like a 5% immediate saving |
| 23:49 | <Rik`> | mpilgrim: http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdiveintohtml5.org%2Fexamples%2Fblog-html5.html "Untitled section" for the <nav> |