| 00:48 | <KevinMarks> | any ideas on when <audio> will work on android browser? |
| 07:21 | <Huvet> | nice jgraham |
| 07:21 | <Huvet> | I'll check them out now |
| 07:31 | <Huvet> | jgraham: perfect, all sites parsed fine except one, which which got a bug 129 encoding error on windows quotes |
| 07:31 | <Huvet> | you rock, I consider 126 and 128 solved |
| 07:33 | <Huvet> | *goes to work, while smiling* |
| 07:58 | <hsivonen> | has anyone tested how the form pointer should behave when the parent of the <form> is a foster-parenting element? |
| 07:59 | <hsivonen> | that is, does http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8373 make sense? |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=674 |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | Simon is basically suggesting that in cases of bad values for attributes that would be obsolete-but-conforming if they had different values, that we also report the same warning that we report if they were obsolete-but-conforming |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., for img/@border=0, we warn, "The border attribute is obsolete, consider [doing CSS way instead]" |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: so the same message but as an error? |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I was thinking both the error and the warning |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | two messages for those cases |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., for img/@border=1, emit the same error as currently |
| 08:53 | <hsivonen> | I guess that works too |
| 08:53 | <hsivonen> | easier to implement for sure |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | yep |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | so OK to make that change? |
| 08:53 | <hsivonen> | yeah, makes sense |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | thanks |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | aargh. there are new doctype states, too |
| 09:38 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I just checked in the change for bug 674. But note that if you do, e.g. <script language=vbscript>, it'll now give you two errors (not an error and a warning) |
| 09:38 | <MikeSmith> | if you check at http://qa-dev.w3.org:8888/ |
| 09:39 | <MikeSmith> | we could eliminate one error if I change the datatype of @language in the RNC schema to allow any string |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | which I know will degrade the accuracy of validation for anybody who might use the schema standalone |
| 09:40 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: in that case, it should probably be a magic include like legacy.rnc |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | I realize now I also need to port these changes over the assertions.sch and warnings.sch files |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, I gotta go now |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | back on later |
| 12:16 | <Hixie> | ok going offline for 4 days (long weekend) |
| 12:16 | <Hixie> | back monday |
| 12:17 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: have a good weekend |
| 12:20 | <annevk2> | bye bye |
| 12:20 | <pesla> | afaik the weekend itself doesn't extend |
| 12:22 | <virtuelv> | annevk2: you're coming to oslo soon? |
| 12:23 | <annevk2> | virtuelv, Dec 1-5 |
| 12:25 | hsivonen | wonders what kind of timers WebKit has for deferring page rendering just enough not to reflow on typical Wikipedia pages during load |
| 12:27 | <annevk2> | virtuelv, just a short visit because there are some other activities going on here and I've been traveling quite a bit lately |
| 12:29 | <virtuelv> | yeah, but you'll be around for x-mas party |
| 12:30 | <annevk2> | yup |
| 12:36 | hsivonen | wonders if J. Random Web Author knows what ISAM is |
| 12:37 | <hsivonen> | (I had to look it up on Wikipedia) |
| 12:39 | <Dashiva> | hsivonen: It has something or other to do with MySQL's default storage engine? :) |
| 12:39 | <annevk2> | what is ISAM? |
| 12:40 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: I don't know. It's what Nikunj is suggesting as the name of his non-SQL draft |
| 12:40 | <hsivonen> | annevk2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISAM :-) |
| 12:41 | <annevk2> | thanks, sorry for asking :) |
| 12:46 | <MikeSmith> | I had to look it up too |
| 12:46 | <MikeSmith> | not that I know much about database technologies anyway |
| 12:57 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about the script language attribute, the Assertions.java and ConformingButObsoleteWarner.java code now correctly handle all case of it on their own -- the assertions part generating an "The language attribute is obsolete" error if it's anything but "javascript", and the warnings part generating a "The language attribute is obsolete warning" if that value is "javascript" |
| 12:58 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ok. |
| 12:58 | <MikeSmith> | all right |
| 12:59 | <MikeSmith> | I will check in that change, and after that I think you should be OK to redeploy if/when you have time |
| 12:59 | <hsivonen> | I intend to redeploy V.nu when I'm done with parser changes |
| 13:01 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: OK |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | tweaking the tokenizer is taking longer than I expected |
| 13:02 | <Philip`> | I assume ISAM is like MyISAM except it's not mine |
| 13:02 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah, I saw your note about the doctype states |
| 13:02 | <Philip`> | (and MyISAM is the MySQL storage engine that doesn't bother supporting database features, i.e. not the InnoDB one) |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | the bad thing about this pseudo-Literate Programming is that a tokenizer state doesn't fit on the screen |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | if (attributes == HtmlAttributes.EMPTY_ATTRIBUTES) { |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | // This has the right magic side effect |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | // that |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | // it |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | // makes attributes in SAX Tree mutable. |
| 13:07 | <Philip`> | It looks like poetry to me |
| 13:08 | <Philip`> | (though maybe that's only because my knowledge of poetry is limited to recognising it based on funny line lengths) |
| 13:10 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 13:11 | <MikeSmith> | haiku |
| 13:11 | <hsivonen> | Eclipse can turn mere comments into poetry! |
| 13:12 | jgraham | wonders if anything that is not literate programming is illiterate programming |
| 13:19 | <Philip`> | http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Who_is_Gregor_Samsa_0x3f_.aspx - literate programming |
| 13:33 | <annevk2> | http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft-worked-with-Apple-for-Silverlight-on-iPhone-says-Goldfarb/1259185079 so now Microsoft itself is generating premature HTML5 content |
| 13:33 | <annevk2> | certainly some irony there |
| 13:33 | <annevk2> | "premature" I should say |
| 13:34 | <karlcow> | that must be the Apple/Microsoft "impremature" :p |
| 13:35 | <Philip`> | http://www.iis.net/iphone |
| 13:36 | <Philip`> | No doctype :-( |
| 13:36 | <Philip`> | It's lucky they're not using IE else it'd go into quirks mode and not support any new features |
| 13:38 | <annevk2> | cool, we're getting free wireless on trains starting next year |
| 13:38 | <annevk2> | hopefully Utrecht-Schiphol is among the first trains to become equipped |
| 14:11 | <hsivonen> | so what's the "Silverlight" part here? |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | Is H.264 video now "Silverlight"? |
| 14:13 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Maybe it's like .NET |
| 14:13 | <annevk2> | I don't think there was a Silverlight part |
| 14:13 | <Philip`> | It's not a client-side plugin, it's a whole ecosystem |
| 14:13 | <Philip`> | and so it could include the streaming media server |
| 14:14 | <Philip`> | (which might be used with a Silverlight client, or in this case with a plain H264-streaming client) |
| 14:14 | <Philip`> | Or maybe the article is just confused |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | OK, so where was no WPF-E/XAML involved |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | but an IIS server streamed H.264 video using Apple's HTTP streaming hack? |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | seems to me the article is confused |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | maybe it's like the Sun Java Desktop System |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | or whatever Sun's Linux distro was called |
| 14:16 | hsivonen | wonders what happened to customers who bought into that one |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | I suppose it's not even really streaming, it's just a plain HTTP server with files like http://mediadl.microsoft.com/mediadl/IISNET/SmoothMedia/iPhone/bbb/output/BigBuckBunny-b0.ts |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | for each chunk of the video |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | (and some playlist files) |
| 14:17 | <Philip`> | (And the .ts files are just MPEG transport stream things, which you can play fine in e.g. mplayer) |
| 14:17 | <hsivonen> | I'm unimpressed by branding this is Silverlight |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | http://blogs.msdn.com/katriend/archive/2009/11/19/silverlight-4-beta-overview-of-the-new-features.aspx - "IIS Media Services 4.0 will support streaming to the iPhone. Note this is not Silverlight support on the iPhone, it’s streaming a format that is supported by the iPhone and generating a video tag that Safari browser on the iPhone supports." |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | That seems reasonably clear that it's not Silverlight |
| 14:21 | <Philip`> | (so the confusion is probably the article's) |
| 14:59 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, re the selectors api xml:id thread, why would making id="" special not work for CML? |
| 14:59 | <Lachy> | is it because it's not formally of type ID? |
| 15:00 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: it uses non-unique id attributes, so at least for validation, it doesn't work |
| 15:01 | <Lachy> | the documentation says id="" is supposed to be "An attribute providing a unique ID for an element." http://cml.sourceforge.net/schema/cmlReact/HTMLDOCS/cmlreact.pdf |
| 15:02 | <Lachy> | oops, wrong link |
| 15:02 | <Lachy> | http://cml.sourceforge.net/schema/cmlCore/HTMLDOCS/cmlCore.pdf |
| 15:03 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: maybe they have an interesting definition of unique or they have fixed the language or something |
| 15:03 | <hsivonen> | I special-cased CML in V.nu |
| 15:03 | <Lachy> | well, actually, the example file they have here has non-unique IDs in it. http://cml.sourceforge.net/schema/cmlCore/EXAMPLES/concatenated.xml |
| 15:04 | <Lachy> | I didn't know you even supported CML in v.nu |
| 15:04 | hsivonen | wonders if the list of named characters in HTML5 has actually changed since September 24 or so |
| 15:04 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: there's a separate CML front end for it |
| 15:04 | <Lachy> | do you mean the entities? |
| 15:04 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: yes |
| 15:05 | <Lachy> | yeah, it did change a few weeks ago. I believe the MathML WG changed some of the Unicode characters that some entities referred to. |
| 15:05 | <Lachy> | I think it was to handle some new characters in Unicode that didn't exist at the time the entities were first defined, or something |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: ok. thanks |
| 15:13 | <hsivonen> | http://code.google.com/p/curlies/wiki/RecommendationsForBrowserDevelopers |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/6018878648 |
| 15:29 | <Philip`> | http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/6023719837 - yeah, just like how the web ""Forks"" every time Intel releases a faster CPU |
| 15:30 | <Philip`> | [I assume he's referring to IE9 and Firefox-something using hardware-accelerated rendering for pages] |
| 15:34 | <Lachy> | what does he mean by "rendering cards"? |
| 15:35 | <Lachy> | is he referring to hardware like graphics cards? |
| 15:35 | <Lachy> | if so, I don't get the relevance to content or forking the web |
| 15:36 | <Philip`> | He must mean that |
| 15:36 | <jgraham> | I think he means "Oh noes Web3D" |
| 15:37 | jgraham | is kinda surprised anyone is still paying attention |
| 15:37 | <Philip`> | I suppose he could mean WebGL but it seems possibly more likely he's referring to http://www.basschouten.com/blog1.php/2009/11/22/direct2d-hardware-rendering-a-browser and http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/11/18/an-early-look-at-ie9-for-developers.aspx |
| 15:38 | <jgraham> | But that wouldn't make any sense because content will hardly depend on that |
| 15:39 | <jgraham> | At least any more than it already depends on CPU speed |
| 15:39 | <Philip`> | I agree it wouldn't make sense |
| 15:39 | <Philip`> | but I don't think that's a reason to think it's not what he meant |
| 15:40 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I guess logic isn't a prerequisite for paid trolling |
| 15:42 | <Philip`> | I also like how he quotes the phrase "Forks the Web" even though he just made that up himself |
| 15:42 | <Philip`> | (Maybe he's thinking of "don't break the web" which is totally different?) |
| 16:00 | <gsnedders> | Does java.io.FileReader work sanely? Like, do I need to use InputStreamReader/FileInputStream just to make sure I get the right charset? |
| 16:01 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Can;t you just use jytonisms? |
| 16:01 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: What is "right"? |
| 16:04 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: Is it prone to using the wrong encoding when the right one is likely UTF-8/Windows-1252? |
| 16:04 | <Philip`> | Sounds like it uses the platform default, which will probably depend on the user's locale |
| 16:04 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I can, but using a Reader allows it to read while parsing |
| 16:05 | <Philip`> | (and on OS) |
| 16:05 | <Philip`> | If you care about the encoding then it seems best to specify it explicitly |
| 16:05 | <Philip`> | which fortunately is trivial |
| 16:07 | <Philip`> | (You might want to add a BufferedReader too, else it might be horribly inefficient) |
| 16:09 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: So what? A BufferedReader calling an InputStreamReader calling a FileInputStream? |
| 16:10 | <Philip`> | Yes |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | and then you call that from the HTML parser |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | (or whatever you're using this for) |
| 16:11 | <gsnedders> | Also: I was writing Java earlier today. Be proud. ;P |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | Was it concise and elegant? |
| 16:12 | <gsnedders> | Well, I didn't really write enough to make any comment on the language. |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | It wasn't concise or elegant though, it was a horrible hack |
| 16:31 | <gsnedders> | Did othermaciej really say that a week and a half don't exist? :P |
| 16:32 | gsnedders | was quite looking forward to getting Christmas presents, but if that week isn't happening... :P |
| 16:32 | <gsnedders> | (Yes, I do know what he meant.) |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | I think he said "for practical purposes" |
| 16:33 | <jgraham> | Obviously you getting christmas presents is impractical |
| 16:33 | <gsnedders> | On grounds that I'm neither where I live nor with my parents? |
| 16:33 | <jgraham> | On the grounds that someone would have to want to give you some |
| 16:34 | gsnedders | makes note not to get jgraham anything for Christmas |
| 17:10 | <jarib> | not sure if this is the right place to ask, but in the spec at http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#meta, the header has id="meta", which probably should be "the-meta-element" |
| 17:10 | <jarib> | i'm using the headers to extract the idl parts programatically while avoiding IDL sections which are not elements |
| 17:31 | <gsnedders> | jarib: Would it not be better to get all IDL sections and check whether the interface implements Element? |
| 17:32 | <jarib> | that sounds wise, let me check why i didn't do that :) |
| 17:33 | <gsnedders> | Because it means walking the interface tree? :) |
| 17:35 | <jarib> | gsnedders: yeah, and i also need the actual tag names.. |
| 17:35 | <jarib> | though walking the interface tree shouldn't be too hard |
| 17:35 | <jarib> | i think i'll do that |
| 17:36 | <jarib> | better suggestions for how to get the tag names are very welcome of course |
| 17:36 | gsnedders | thinks you're probably better off extracting it from the spec manually |
| 17:38 | <Philip`> | jarib: Presumably you'll have to add in special cases for e.g. the h1..h6 elements, since they're written differently to all the other elements |
| 17:38 | <jarib> | hmm, ok. i thought things like the header ids would remain consistent over time, perhaps too optimistic |
| 17:38 | <no_mind> | is this the place to discuss html5 ? |
| 17:38 | <Philip`> | so a generic solution seems impossible in general |
| 17:38 | <jarib> | Philip`: yes, i do have that |
| 17:38 | <Philip`> | I guess it's still worth minimising the number of special cases, though |
| 17:39 | <Philip`> | jarib: The ids in the source document (i.e. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/source) ought to be pretty consistent over time |
| 17:39 | <Philip`> | no_mind: Yes |
| 17:39 | <no_mind> | ok |
| 17:40 | <Philip`> | no_mind: (or at least this is one of many places) |
| 17:40 | <jarib> | ah, i should probably use that URL instead |
| 17:40 | <jarib> | thanks |
| 17:41 | <no_mind> | I am going through the spec and thinking, is HTML5 going to have tags for input from devices other than keyboard and mouse ? Like can I input my webcam or audio directly without using flash ? |
| 17:41 | <Philip`> | jarib: The ids in the other version are autogenerated and I guess they'd be a bit less stable |
| 17:41 | <no_mind> | Philip`, the IRC network (irc.w3.rog) listed on html5 website is not reachable :( |
| 17:41 | <jarib> | i see |
| 17:42 | <Philip`> | though I suppose it won't make that much difference in practice |
| 17:42 | <Philip`> | no_mind: Do you mean irc.w3.org? |
| 17:42 | <no_mind> | Philip`, yes |
| 17:43 | <Philip`> | no_mind: Hmm, works for me |
| 17:43 | <no_mind> | gives me connection refused or connection timed out |
| 17:44 | <Philip`> | no_mind: You might need to make sure you're connecting to the right port (I think 6665) |
| 17:44 | <Philip`> | no_mind: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/help-whatwg.org/2009-September/000336.html |
| 17:45 | <Philip`> | no_mind: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2009Aug/0042.html |
| 17:45 | <Philip`> | no_mind: (HTML5 won't add any major new features, but other W3C groups might work on similar things) |
| 17:47 | <no_mind> | Philip`, so how do I propose an API for devices ? I think with such an API we can integrate biometric devices with webapps for auth |
| 18:00 | <Philip`> | no_mind: It seems like the public-device-apis list might the best place for discussions of that kind of thing |
| 18:03 | <no_mind> | Philip`, yup, thnxs for pointing. I have subscribed to the list |
| 18:42 | <mitsuhiko> | hi everybody |
| 18:42 | <mitsuhiko> | could it be that the genshi stream tree walker is broken in tip? |
| 18:42 | <mitsuhiko> | (html5lib that is_ |
| 19:17 | <foolip> | no_mind: for webcam input you might want to consider integration with <video> |
| 19:17 | <foolip> | no_mind: same with microphone and <audio> of course |
| 19:18 | <no_mind> | hmm |
| 19:19 | <foolip> | because I assume one would want preview, and a webcam preview is nothing but video+audio |
| 19:20 | <foolip> | but <input type=video> might be appropriate for actually recording a clip |
| 19:20 | <foolip> | I guess you already have some ideas though |
| 19:24 | <no_mind> | foolip, this is a nice idea, but I am looking at some other things too. Like using fingerprint recognition device to authenticate for web apps. In this case I need to send input from fingerprint scanner to webapp. Finger print scanner is like a camera |
| 19:25 | <no_mind> | also, with microphone integration, we can have fields for audio input which can be used for sending voice messages |
| 19:25 | <foolip> | no_mind: <input type=audio> ? |
| 19:25 | <no_mind> | foolip, <video> and <audio> tags are for output but not input |
| 19:26 | <no_mind> | foolip, yes something like <input type=audio> |
| 19:26 | <foolip> | yes, thus <input type=audio> and <input type=video> |
| 19:26 | <foolip> | fingerprint recognition I'm skeptical about |
| 19:27 | <foolip> | I doubt any standards group will be interested in speccing that |
| 19:27 | <foolip> | but I could be wrong |
| 19:27 | <no_mind> | foolip, even some genralized input tag which can used for any device. Like for a website providing location based service, you could input your gps coordinates from gps receiver |
| 19:28 | <Philip`> | mitsuhiko: That seems like it could be a possibility |
| 19:28 | <Philip`> | mitsuhiko: (Do you have a simple test case for it?) |
| 19:28 | <mitsuhiko> | Philip`: well, it was not adapted to the latest changes of the simpletree i guess |
| 19:28 | <mitsuhiko> | it fails all the time |
| 19:28 | <foolip> | no_mind: how would a "generalized input tag" work? |
| 19:29 | <no_mind> | foolip, I am just discussing the use cases. Obviously for fingerprint thingie you will have to define few more things |
| 19:30 | <Philip`> | mitsuhiko: Probably worth filing a bug on the Google Code site in that case, if there isn't one already |
| 19:30 | <no_mind> | foolip, an input tag which could have a button and will read the device it is pointing to |
| 19:30 | Philip` | has never looked at that code himself |
| 19:30 | <no_mind> | so something like <input type="device" src="/dev/gps"> |
| 19:30 | <mitsuhiko> | will do |
| 19:31 | <foolip> | no_mind: but "read" means different things for different types of devices, surely you'd have to specify the behavior for each kind of input you can actually support? |
| 19:31 | <no_mind> | foolip, yes |
| 19:31 | <no_mind> | foolip, but on *nix like systems all devices are files and will implement read system call |
| 19:32 | <Philip`> | There's already a geolocation API |
| 19:32 | <Philip`> | which seems to require much more complexity than 'read the current value' |
| 19:32 | <no_mind> | Philip`, ok |
| 19:32 | <foolip> | no_mind: yes, but just returning the raw byte array from the sytem isn't very useful |
| 19:32 | <mitsuhiko> | Philip`: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=130 |
| 19:33 | <Philip`> | (I'm guessing the complexity is mostly about security/privacy and asynchronicity) |
| 19:33 | <no_mind> | foolip, ok may be we can add a device class too, that will do some wrapper around the device read. Like camera device |
| 19:33 | <Philip`> | mitsuhiko: Thanks |
| 19:34 | <Philip`> | mitsuhiko: Hopefully someone like jgraham will see it and fix it ;-) |
| 19:34 | <no_mind> | Philip`, are you referring to this http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html ? |
| 19:34 | <foolip> | no_mind: a pretty big wrapper I'd say, something that makes all kinds of cameras on all platforms behave the same |
| 19:34 | <Philip`> | no_mind: Yes |
| 19:34 | <no_mind> | foolip, well flash does this |
| 19:35 | <foolip> | no_mind: but I agree that we should do it eventually, it's quite useful |
| 19:38 | <foolip> | no_mind: but we need to aim much higher than direct device access |
| 19:38 | <foolip> | i.e. either give frame-per-frame access or simply encode the stream in a standard format |
| 19:38 | <no_mind> | foolip, well on linux systems we can use read, open system calls, to start with |
| 19:39 | <foolip> | no_mind: that's an implementation detail, no need to think about that yet |
| 19:39 | <no_mind> | then start organizing this into device specific info |
| 19:39 | <no_mind> | for example for camera class, as you suggested, do a wrapper to give frame by frame access to js |
| 19:40 | <foolip> | in any case the probably interface to the camera is programatically via v4l2 |
| 19:40 | <foolip> | and something completely different on all other platforms, as always |
| 19:40 | <no_mind> | yes that is a challenge |
| 19:41 | <foolip> | I do wish we would start with HTML6 though so we can start experimenting with new spec features |
| 19:42 | <no_mind> | foolip, browsers will need to maintain some kind of sandbox/proxy for all device classes identified, to provide these kind of wrappers |
| 19:42 | <foolip> | no_mind: yep |
| 19:43 | <Philip`> | foolip: By "we" do you mean "Hixie"? |
| 19:43 | <Philip`> | Nobody's stopping anybody else writing and publishing proposals for new features :-) |
| 19:43 | <foolip> | Philip`: no, I don't have any specific person in mind |
| 19:45 | <foolip> | Philip`: yes, but any proposals will just be scattered around the web until HTML6 (or whatever) starts |
| 19:45 | <no_mind> | Philip`, this cannot be part of HTML5, its too late. We will have to discuss a new proposal or add on to public-devices-api proposal. So need not be disturbed :) |
| 19:46 | <foolip> | can/will the devices API WG spec new features of HTML though? |
| 19:46 | <no_mind> | foolip, if the proposal is useful, we can always write a firefox extension and keep our fingers crossed. Waiting for this to be accepted by public :) |
| 19:47 | <foolip> | <input type=video> might not be an API in the "devices API" sense. |
| 19:47 | <annevk2> | <input type=file type=video/*> |
| 19:47 | <annevk2> | is what we should do imo |
| 19:47 | <no_mind> | foolip, my question here will be, can devices be part of HTML ? We are going beyond text here and most devices will input non-text data |
| 19:48 | <annevk2> | with a JavaScript API on top that gives you a streaming object, etc. |
| 19:48 | <foolip> | annevk2: as long as the idea is to encode a video file for upload, sure |
| 19:49 | <annevk2> | having said that, maybe <input type=video> is better, as to not overload things |
| 19:49 | <annevk2> | foolip, <input> does not necessarily imply file upload |
| 19:49 | <annevk2> | or any kind of upload |
| 19:49 | <foolip> | annevk2: seems mostly equivalent, I suppose legacy constraints will decide which works best |
| 19:49 | <annevk2> | well, not since DOM2HTML anyway :) |
| 19:49 | <no_mind> | well but why file and not a stream ? I can input my webcam and stream to some video conferencing server using websocket |
| 19:50 | <foolip> | annevk2: is there any input type that doesn't cause something to be POSTed? |
| 19:50 | <annevk2> | no_mind, it would give you a stream |
| 19:50 | <annevk2> | no_mind, well, you'd be able to get hold of one through scripting |
| 19:50 | <annevk2> | foolip, depends on whether there's a <form> |
| 19:51 | <foolip> | no_mind: if you want a conservative answer on what belongs in HTML, this is a terrible place to ask. Personally I don't care either way, it's still a part of the web platform and what browsers implement. |
| 19:51 | <no_mind> | foolip, nice answer |
| 19:53 | <foolip> | audio input is somewhat related to audio synthesis, which is kind of why I mention <audio> and <video> integration. |
| 19:54 | <foolip> | but I don't really have a proposal in mind for how everything would fit together |
| 19:55 | <annevk2> | http://www.zeldman.com/2009/11/26/a-zing-too-far/ lol |
| 19:55 | <annevk2> | I wish we were past debating HTML vs XHTML |
| 19:55 | <annevk2> | it's so boring |
| 19:56 | <foolip> | is there any indication that IE will *ever* support XHTML? |
| 19:58 | <no_mind> | foolip, but audio devices can be used independent of video too. Lets say VOIP call |
| 19:58 | <foolip> | no_mind: absolutely |
| 19:58 | <foolip> | no_mind: as I see it, "video" is video and optionally audio while "audio" is just audio. |
| 19:59 | <no_mind> | so an independent pure audio input will make sense. Plus audio and video compressions are different |
| 20:00 | <foolip> | yep |
| 20:00 | <no_mind> | when we have to stream audio and video both, we can use any video format to encode. For audio, same can be approached with mp3 |
| 20:01 | <no_mind> | so the audio and video input needs to apply different encodings too |
| 20:02 | <foolip> | well, simply using 1 container format, 1 audio codec and 1 video codec should cover it |
| 20:02 | <annevk2> | Hixie's idea was having a Stream object, a way to get a URL from a Stream object and a way to transmit and receive Stream objects through Web Sockets |
| 20:02 | <annevk2> | And a way to get Stream objects from <input type=file type=video/*> / <input type=file type=audio/*> (or some such) |
| 20:03 | <foolip> | annevk2: sounds pretty good |
| 20:03 | <no_mind> | annevk2, makes sense |
| 20:03 | <annevk2> | to me too :) |
| 20:05 | <no_mind> | with stream objects we need not POST to send data to server. :) |
| 20:06 | <no_mind> | so how do we start putting this into a proposal ? |
| 20:06 | <foolip> | I'm curious about that too |
| 20:06 | <no_mind> | I am not aware of formalities. Do we need a WG before we can start ? |
| 20:06 | <foolip> | the WHATWG has no formalities :) |
| 20:06 | <foolip> | just edit it on the wiki for starters maybe? |
| 20:07 | <no_mind> | so we just write a rough draft and submit it somewhere to form a WG ? |
| 20:07 | <foolip> | of course it's possible some of these idea are already hidden inside <!-- comments --> in HTML5 or related specs |
| 20:08 | <foolip> | no_mind: unless you're taking this to the W3C there is only one WG |
| 20:08 | <foolip> | no_mind: do you work for a browser vendor or otherwise have influence over one? |
| 20:08 | <no_mind> | foolip, no to both |
| 20:09 | <foolip> | i.e. is it likely you can make an experimental implementation of your ideas? |
| 20:09 | <no_mind> | foolip, yes I can do that |
| 20:09 | <foolip> | certainly JavaScript implementations are good too |
| 20:09 | <no_mind> | foolip, infact, I made a firefox plugin for a client which integrated finger print scanner with a web app ;) |
| 20:09 | <no_mind> | that is where I got thsi idea |
| 20:09 | <no_mind> | this* |
| 20:10 | <foolip> | I should note by the way that I'm just a random guy, I'm not speaking for the WHATWG or anything, just sharing my experience in how things work here |
| 20:10 | <no_mind> | foolip, I understand |
| 20:11 | <foolip> | I'd be interested to see more of the Stream idea |
| 20:12 | <no_mind> | yep stream with encryption |
| 20:14 | <roc> | I was thinking of a capture API on video/audio that posts a series of messages to a Worker with a Blob parameter |
| 20:15 | <foolip> | roc: Blob is a byte array? |
| 20:15 | <roc> | effectively |
| 20:15 | <foolip> | roc: so basically posting raw frames, or compressed? |
| 20:16 | <roc> | I'd give the capture API a MIME type parameter which is what you'd try to encode as |
| 20:16 | <roc> | and I guess a canRecordType method |
| 20:16 | <foolip> | right |
| 20:17 | <foolip> | roc: so any ideas on how one would go about to preview the audio/video? |
| 20:17 | <roc> | oh the other part is to have a URL scheme for input devices |
| 20:18 | <roc> | so you set <video src="camera:default"> or something |
| 20:18 | <roc> | I actually have no idea about the URL scheme |
| 20:18 | <roc> | but then the video is your preview |
| 20:18 | <foolip> | yes, I've thought about "camera://" too |
| 20:18 | <roc> | you can use canvas.drawImage to take pictures |
| 20:18 | <foolip> | but I'm particularly interested in this whole audio synthesis/filtering business, being able to do real-time filters on the audio |
| 20:19 | <roc> | and use the capture API to take video |
| 20:19 | <foolip> | the use case for synthesis is of course to be able to do a NES emulator :) |
| 20:20 | <roc> | you can do synthesis today with data:audio/wave |
| 20:20 | <foolip> | you followed this thread a while back, right? |
| 20:20 | <roc> | yeah |
| 20:20 | <foolip> | I argued exactly that |
| 20:21 | <foolip> | but data: would only work if you used lots of audio elements and have a mechanism to sync them |
| 20:22 | <no_mind> | roc, so you mean to say with current specs, I can write a VOIP app for browser ? |
| 20:22 | <roc> | no_mind: no you can't |
| 20:22 | <roc> | foolip: no, it's not idea |
| 20:22 | <roc> | no_mind: you can synthesize fixed-length sounds |
| 20:22 | <roc> | foolip: it's not ideal |
| 20:22 | <no_mind> | ok |
| 20:24 | <foolip> | certainly this isn't the most pressing use case for HTML6, but it would sure be neat to have scripts (a) generate input for <audio> (b) filter the output of <audio> |
| 20:25 | <roc> | yes, people already want to do this |
| 20:25 | <roc> | it seems like the first thing people want to do when you give them audio playback is write some kind of graphic visualizer |
| 20:25 | <foolip> | hehe |
| 20:25 | <foolip> | I *hate* those applications |
| 20:25 | <foolip> | but I assume it's great fun to write them |
| 20:25 | <foolip> | loops of expanding pixels and fading fire and what not |
| 20:29 | <annevk2> | no_mind, if you draft something that's really good, chances are it will get picked up and standardized |
| 20:29 | <annevk2> | chances are high |
| 20:29 | <foolip> | and if it's not perfect, there's still a good change the good parts will be kept :) |
| 20:29 | <annevk2> | and it's certainly not a bad idea to start providing some input I think; we really need this :) |
| 20:30 | <foolip> | /s/change/chance/ |
| 20:30 | <no_mind> | annevk2, I am researching on wahtwg website to find the ways to propose a specification |
| 20:30 | <foolip> | write something and post it to the mailing list, bascially |
| 20:31 | <foolip> | there is no formal process, you can't do it wrong |
| 20:31 | <no_mind> | foolip, so I need not have a proper document to start with. Just properly worded post to mailing list ? |
| 20:32 | <annevk2> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/How_to_write_a_spec |
| 20:32 | <annevk2> | there's also http://blog.whatwg.org/proposing-features |
| 20:32 | <annevk2> | no_mind, yup |
| 20:32 | <no_mind> | ok and post to whatwg⊙lwo |
| 20:32 | <foolip> | no_mind: all the changes I've suggested for HTML5 were just by mail. but then I haven't suggested any big new features |
| 20:32 | <annevk2> | yup |
| 20:32 | <annevk2> | foolip, that reminds me, did you look into playBackRate? |
| 20:33 | <foolip> | annevk2: in what way? |
| 20:33 | <annevk2> | playbackRate* |
| 20:33 | <annevk2> | it seems to not specify a whole lot of detail |
| 20:33 | <annevk2> | I got some questions about whether you would hear e.g. audio |
| 20:33 | <foolip> | you mean if it's "play faster" or "skip frames and drop audio"? |
| 20:33 | <annevk2> | I suspect it depends on the codec, but the spec prolly ought to have more detail |
| 20:34 | <annevk2> | e.g. by just stating it depends on the codec spec or some such |
| 20:34 | <foolip> | I'd say it's a quality of implementation issue |
| 20:34 | <foolip> | for 1.1 it probably makes sense to just speed it up |
| 20:34 | <foolip> | but for 100 you would certainly drop audio and only decode keyframes |
| 20:35 | <annevk2> | oh and whether if it was speeded up, whether pitching would be normalized and such |
| 20:35 | <foolip> | annevk2: oh right |
| 20:35 | <foolip> | someone doing WebKit suggested something there |
| 20:35 | <foolip> | which I didn't agree with, incidentally |
| 20:36 | <foolip> | so the answer is "no", I haven't given this much thought |
| 20:36 | <annevk2> | k |
| 20:36 | <foolip> | what's actually possible and not depends very much on the media framework and the codecs I think |
| 20:36 | <annevk2> | it seems negative defaultPlaybackRate is not defined either |
| 20:36 | <foolip> | (and the rate) |
| 20:37 | <foolip> | yeah, I think there's some bugs with looping for negative playbackRate too |
| 20:37 | <foolip> | zcorpan knows more |
| 20:38 | <foolip> | I'll put it as an item on my TODO list, to be done before 2022 |
| 21:02 | <Huvet> | ah, a simple workaround for bug 126 is a replace of all windows quotes to proper quotes before parsing |
| 21:02 | <Huvet> | ehm... 129, sorry |
| 21:02 | <Huvet> | all 195 sites pass now, perfectly |
| 21:02 | <Huvet> | 295 |
| 21:03 | <Huvet> | what's wrong with me and numbers today :/ |
| 21:05 | <timz> | is it ok to send html formatted mails to whatwg⊙wo ? |
| 21:06 | <annevk2> | I'd rather you don't, but it has been done |
| 21:08 | <timz> | ok, i'll just reference the forum post i made to forums.whatwg.org, less cluttering :-) |
| 21:13 | <annevk2> | I updated blog.whatwg.org to use the latest version of WP |
| 21:15 | <annevk2> | Also the plugins |
| 21:27 | <timz> | Does it really take 15 years for the HTML5 proposal becoming a recommendation ? |
| 21:29 | <annevk2> | well, we don't know, what we do know is that CSS2 is taking upwards of 10 years so far |
| 21:29 | <annevk2> | the expectation that much like CSS2 HTML5 will be widely implemented and deployed much sooner though |
| 21:29 | <annevk2> | lots of it is already, today |
| 21:29 | <timz> | hehe i really hope so |
| 21:30 | <timz> | so css3 will never make it to recommendation because of the apocalypse ? |
| 21:30 | <timz> | :) |
| 21:31 | <nessy> | I'd say it's all dependent on implementation effort and the browser vendors are very much behind html5, so that's a good sign |
| 21:40 | <timz> | Yeah i hope we will see, for example, "font embedding" and "open video" soon. It would not only mean the web is improving but also multinational businessmodels taking another route. |
| 21:41 | <annevk2> | http://icantbelieveitsnotflash.com/ |
| 21:41 | <annevk2> | and with that, I'm off reading/sleeping |
| 21:42 | <timz> | reading what ? |
| 21:42 | <annevk2> | the economist |
| 21:42 | <timz> | hehe, have fun :) |
| 21:46 | <nessy> | oh, I've always loved the DHTML lemmings site! |
| 21:47 | <nessy> | nice that they made little videos - they might be available for longer than the websites themselves! :-) |
| 21:57 | <jgraham> | Huvet: I'm not sure that gives the correct result per spec. |