| 02:34 | <Hixie> | "World Wide Web Consortium has reported that the upcoming version of HTML a.k.a. HTML 5 will support external devices, directly from your browser." - http://www.livbit.com/article/2009/12/16/html-5-will-feature-support-for-external-devices-and-file-system/ |
| 02:34 | <Hixie> | that's news to me! |
| 03:08 | <Templarian> | I'm a little unsure on something http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-map-element.html#svg-0 In SVG when it's implemented for HTML5 will it use the svg namespace "<svg:"? |
| 03:10 | <Templarian> | (for inline SVG that is) |
| 03:11 | Templarian | wonders if there is a cleric around that could help in translating these scriptures. hmm. |
| 03:24 | <blog_novak> | behind the scenes, are <video> and <canvas> tags similar? Would it be possible to use WebGL shaders on <video> data? |
| 03:36 | <Templarian> | I just submitted one of those comment bugs to clear up that section since it sounds confusing. Will check back to it later and see if I can understand it then. |
| 06:09 | <hiptobecubic> | Looking at html5 and the <video> tag, would it be possible to stream realtime video? For example from a local source such as a digital video camera? |
| 06:09 | <hiptobecubic> | I'm not suggesting that the <video> tag be able to access the hardware, just would be possible for some program to write the video to disk AS it's being served? |
| 06:10 | <Templarian> | hiptobecubic: you mean like a right click download video option? |
| 06:11 | <hiptobecubic> | Templarian, well no. I mean have video playing in the browser which is not yet a complete file, and keep adding to that file on the server |
| 06:12 | <Templarian> | Yea, should be possible if you're using any type of media server that supports one of the formats. |
| 06:13 | <Templarian> | (you would want a media server, not sure how writing to the video file while having the server stream it would go) |
| 06:13 | <hiptobecubic> | Templarian, when you say 'should be possible' what are you envisioning? I have apache running and a test page which loads an .ogv fine. I tried replacing the file with a named pipe and catting the video into the pipe, but it fails to load in the page. |
| 06:13 | <hiptobecubic> | Templarian, ah, that's the problem. |
| 06:13 | <hiptobecubic> | Templarian, i don't know much of anything about media servers, |
| 06:13 | <nessy> | how about trying icecast? |
| 06:14 | <nessy> | you need a particular server that does live streaming - I think the video element/browser should already support progressively growing files |
| 06:14 | <nessy> | you could also try flumotion |
| 06:15 | <Templarian> | Yea, just use your webcam to test should work. |
| 06:15 | <Templarian> | (once you have the media portion setup to output the feed) |
| 06:15 | <hiptobecubic> | flumotion... hmm |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | Yudai: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker |
| 08:53 | <annevk3> | http://berjon.com/blog/2009/12/consensus.html is nice |
| 08:58 | hsivonen | doesn't get the use of a grave accent over the e in archived. |
| 09:09 | <annevk3> | ah great |
| 09:09 | <annevk3> | Hixie guesses what I suggested is okay |
| 09:09 | <annevk3> | guess I'm starting to understand what I'm talking about |
| 09:11 | <annevk3> | hsivonen, did you see http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20091217#l-215 ? |
| 09:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk3: I skimmed past that line. |
| 09:13 | <hsivonen> | hmm. Templarian already left. |
| 09:13 | <annevk3> | if that's not namespace confusion :) |
| 09:14 | <annevk3> | FYI: another 20 hours or so on http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-76-objection-poll/ |
| 09:24 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: do you have data about pages with empty attribute values for these attributes? http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-December/024562.html |
| 10:03 | <annevk3> | why is Web Database not part of complete but <device> is? |
| 10:04 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: I have many gigabytes of data about it, and if I don't forget later today then I should be able to summarise it |
| 10:06 | <hsivonen> | annevk3: maybe because Web Database isn't Part of the Platform™ because it has been vendor vetoed? |
| 10:08 | <annevk3> | it seems only parts of it are somewhat vetoed |
| 10:08 | <annevk3> | and it's mostly Oracle actually that's making the noise |
| 10:09 | <annevk3> | which is somewhat scary |
| 10:10 | <annevk3> | but I guess that is it |
| 10:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk3: well, there has been only one query language on the table, so vendor vetoing the query language doesn't leave a working spec |
| 10:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk3: and I meant Mozilla and Microsoft--not Oracle |
| 10:11 | <annevk3> | it's not the language that has been vetoed, it's the lack of a language that can be implemented without implementing SQLite |
| 10:11 | <annevk3> | without using SQLite, I should say |
| 10:11 | <annevk3> | Hixie has offered to spec that language if someone is interested in implementing it |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | Does anyone know what Perl tricks Hixie uses to process the source file to get to multiple files? |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | I want to change the XHR2 source file to output both XHR1 and XHR2 documents |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | Gives me centralized errors rather than distributed :) |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | <!--XHR1-start--> and <!--XHR2-start--> etc. labels work, but how do I deal with them? |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | just run a regular expression? |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | and does it make sense that the source document itself no longer represents anything if it's not processed? |
| 11:30 | <hendry> | i think the Bubbles at work example is wrong on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/embedded-content-1.html#the-figure-element |
| 11:31 | <hendry> | http://b.dabase.com/figure/ |
| 11:32 | <hendry> | or it could be a validation bug for hsivonen |
| 11:32 | <Philip`> | Looks like a validator bug to me |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | hendry: yeah, it's a validation bug |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | pending the resolution of the <dt>/<dd> thing |
| 11:54 | zcorpan | creates http://bit.ly/livedom |
| 12:19 | <zcorpan> | "If V is null or undefined, then return a sequence of length zero." - http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#es-sequence |
| 12:20 | <zcorpan> | "If the ports argument is null, then act as if the method had just been called with two arguments, message and targetOrigin." - http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/comms.html#posting-messages-with-message-ports |
| 12:20 | <zcorpan> | can the ports argument be null? |
| 14:02 | <zcorpan> | hmm, shouldn't new MessageChannel() start the ports automatically? |
| 14:45 | <fabiand> | Hello. Does someone know, if it is possible to create a canvas from some rendered html content? (like convertig some h2 to a canvas ..) |
| 14:49 | <Philip`> | fabiand: That's not currently possible |
| 14:51 | <fabiand> | Philip`: ok. thanks |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | (IIRC, it's possible in Gecko if the script runs with chrome privileges) |
| 14:52 | <hsivonen> | (which doesn't help Web authoring) |
| 14:53 | <Philip`> | (Indeed, with drawWindow) |
| 14:54 | <fabiand> | hsivonen: true, the snapshot utility i'm using is using this function ... |
| 14:58 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: the fix for the script escape tokenization stuff should be in the Minefield nightlies. Thanks for finding the bug. |
| 15:36 | <annevk> | aah |
| 15:37 | <annevk> | in Python a . does not match newlines |
| 15:37 | <annevk> | so you need re.compile("regexp", re.DOTALL) ... |
| 15:37 | <annevk> | rather than just "regexp" |
| 15:37 | <annevk> | grmbl |
| 15:38 | <Philip`> | Isn't that true of (almost) all languages' regexps? |
| 15:38 | <Philip`> | e.g. you need /regexp/s in Perl |
| 15:40 | gsnedders | thinks (almost) all languages' regexps are based on Perl |
| 15:41 | <Philip`> | and you need to use (?:.|\n) in JS instead of . as far as I can tell |
| 15:42 | <annevk> | oh |
| 15:42 | <annevk> | well, I guess I'm a regexp noob |
| 15:42 | <Philip`> | I think Perl wins in cleanest regexp syntax :-) |
| 15:46 | <annevk> | I tried learning Perl once, but switched to Python |
| 15:46 | Philip` | finds it convenient to know both |
| 15:47 | <annevk> | I guess I should invest some more time in Perl yeah |
| 15:49 | Philip` | thinks Perl probably requires quite a bit more investment than Python |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | e.g. if you see some code doing re.compile("regexp", re.DOTALL) then you can do help(re) to find out what it is |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | but if you see some code with /regexp/s then you're kind of stuck unless you already know what it is and where to find the documentation |
| 15:50 | jgraham | wonders if it is really worthwhile investing time in perl compared to investing the same time in a more dissimilar language |
| 15:50 | <Philip`> | but the latter is far easier to write, and somewhat easier to remember |
| 15:51 | <mikekelly> | hi fans |
| 15:51 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Depends on what kind of code you want to write |
| 15:51 | <mikekelly> | un petite question |
| 15:52 | <mikekelly> | seal voo play |
| 15:52 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Really? I would expect that learning a greater variety of things would make you better in general than learning several closely related things |
| 15:52 | <mikekelly> | you know forms are getting new actions for PUT/DELETE ..? |
| 15:52 | jgraham | is not really a shining example of this philosophy though |
| 15:53 | <mikekelly> | what's the mofokin' dizzle with PATCH yo?! |
| 15:55 | <Philip`> | jgraham: I'd expect that if you only write code for quick scripts and glue code and some one-off CGIs and whatever then you would not get a great deal of value out of learning Haskell or assembly or Prolog etc, and it would be much harder to learn since you wouldn't be learning by solving problems you care about |
| 15:56 | <Philip`> | so it'd be better to spend the same amount of time learning a more directly relevant language that you would actually use sometimes |
| 15:56 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: You should learn Ruby. |
| 15:56 | <mikekelly> | yes |
| 15:56 | <mikekelly> | sinatra is the poop |
| 15:56 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Why? |
| 15:56 | <Philip`> | (But once you know enough languages to do everything you want, then you should spend more time learning more languages :-) ) |
| 15:57 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Because you're not a shining example of the philosophy of different langauges. |
| 15:57 | <mikekelly> | jgraham: http://www.sinatrarb.com |
| 15:57 | <mikekelly> | that is the coolest hello world I've ever seen. |
| 15:57 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Typically one language is enough to do everything you want if it is one sutiable language for the tasks you care about |
| 15:57 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I can't tell if you are being ironic. |
| 15:57 | <mikekelly> | which is why you want a language with an HTTP DSL! )) |
| 15:58 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Aren't I always? |
| 15:58 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: no |
| 15:58 | <mikekelly> | please can someone explain what is going on with HTML5 and HTTP PATCH |
| 15:58 | <jgraham> | Philip`: (and you only care about a small range of tasks) |
| 15:59 | <gsnedders> | mikekelly: AFAIK nobody has made any proposal for it, and nor is PATCH actually standardized yet |
| 16:00 | <mikekelly> | er |
| 16:00 | <mikekelly> | I think it did recently no? |
| 16:00 | <gsnedders> | Not that I saw. AFAIK it's still an I-D. |
| 16:00 | <mikekelly> | ahh poop-wagons |
| 16:00 | <Philip`> | jgraham: I'd imagine most people do a sufficiently wide range of tasks that one language is not the optimum one for all of them |
| 16:01 | <mikekelly> | ok well let's add that to next century's roadmap anyway |
| 16:01 | <Philip`> | where by "imagine" I just mean I'm making things up to support anything I said earlier |
| 16:01 | <mikekelly> | are you a Physicist by any chance? |
| 16:02 | <jgraham> | I doubt one langauge is the optimum one for all of them but it may be a sufficiently good one |
| 16:02 | <gsnedders> | mikekelly: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dusseault-http-patch-16 — that's the latest I-D I can see, and I don't see any RFC after that for it |
| 16:02 | <gsnedders> | mikekelly: Who? Me? |
| 16:03 | <workmad3> | http://www.musicademy.com/2009/12/worship-gaffe-2-christmas-carol-nightmare/ <-- who can listen to this the longest |
| 16:03 | <workmad3> | I just got to 2.30 ish |
| 16:03 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: I used PHP for everything for years because I couldn't be bothered learning another language. Then I learnt Python, and realized learning languages was normally a _lot_ less painful than learning PHP. |
| 16:03 | <workmad3> | oops, wrong channel |
| 16:04 | <workmad3> | sorry guys :) |
| 16:04 | <workmad3> | gsnedders: I found learning python almost painful... but then the language I'd learnt prior to python was ruby :) |
| 16:04 | <mikekelly> | gsnedders: apparently PATCH was never actually taken out or something |
| 16:05 | <mikekelly> | just not implemented |
| 16:05 | <gsnedders> | workmad3: I basically learnt Ruby in a day, already knowing PYthon |
| 16:05 | <gsnedders> | *Python |
| 16:05 | <jgraham> | I spent many years trying to convince people I knew doing PhDs that they should write trivial glue code in Python rather than C |
| 16:06 | Philip` | used to use QuickBASIC for everything, then tried learning C, and realised learning C was really painful, and then gave up and went back to QuickBASIC (until being forced to learn Perl to maintain/write some primitive CGI scripts, and after that it was easy to learn C) |
| 16:06 | <gsnedders> | So, if you want to have it easy when learning C, learn Perl? |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | s/C/any other language/ |
| 16:06 | <gsnedders> | Because that fucks up your mind sufficently? |
| 16:07 | <jgraham> | s/fucks up your mind sufficiently/gives you unreasonably low expectations/ |
| 16:07 | <mikekelly> | gsnedders: The IESG has approved the following document: |
| 16:07 | <mikekelly> | - 'PATCH Method for HTTP ' <draft-dusseault-http-patch-16.txt> as a Proposed Standard |
| 16:07 | <Philip`> | I had a dozen books on C/C++ but couldn't understand pointers after reading any of them, but it made sense years later when I realised they were like Perl references |
| 16:08 | <workmad3> | I thankfully managed to get pointers fairly easily... it was template metaprogramming in C++ that screwed with my mind |
| 16:09 | <workmad3> | but I know what you mean... I read through half a dozen or so books on C++ all based around learning the low level mechanics |
| 16:09 | <Philip`> | Learning a sane functional programming first helps with template metaprogramming :-) |
| 16:09 | gsnedders | can't read programming books |
| 16:09 | <workmad3> | I've now read a similar amount of text on Ruby and Rails, and gotten a lot more distance out of them :) |
| 16:09 | <gsnedders> | I just lose interest so quickly. |
| 16:10 | workmad3 | reads on the bus to and from work |
| 16:10 | gsnedders | walks to work… |
| 16:10 | gsnedders | needs to get a scarf |
| 16:10 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: You need audio books |
| 16:10 | <workmad3> | aha, untapped market... audio books on programming :) |
| 16:10 | <jgraham> | I think my problem with learning C (which I occasionally try to do properly) is that it is so tedious to get anything done that I wind up doing something less boring instead |
| 16:10 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: So then I don't hear the bus coming and get killed? |
| 16:10 | workmad3 | imagines Stephen Fry reading out code samples... |
| 16:11 | gsnedders | bursts out laughing |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | "First write the following into your text editor: hash, exclamation mark, forward slash, user, that is yoo, ess, arr, forward slash, bin, ..." |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | It'd be great |
| 16:12 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: You could turn the volume down a bit |
| 16:12 | <workmad3> | I think an audio book on lisp would be awesome :) |
| 16:13 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Also, deaf people seem to avoid buses alright, so you should be fine |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | "... right parenthesis, right parenthesis, right parenthesis, right parenthesis, right parenthesis..." |
| 16:13 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Maybe your problem with learning C is that you're trying to do things in it that are tedious to get done |
| 16:13 | <Philip`> | like anything involving text |
| 16:14 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Could be |
| 16:14 | <Philip`> | Write a PNG decoder or something :-) |
| 16:14 | <jgraham> | Philip`: But I don't really want to decode PNGs |
| 16:14 | <workmad3> | C isn't about doing stuff that you *want* to do :) |
| 16:15 | <jgraham> | OK, I don't *have* to decode PNGs |
| 16:15 | <Philip`> | Learning a language isn't about doing stuff that you *want* to do :-) |
| 16:15 | <gsnedders> | GIFs, instead? |
| 16:15 | gsnedders | wrote Anolis to learn Python |
| 16:15 | gsnedders | wanted to do that |
| 16:15 | <Philip`> | Well, it's not about doing stuff you *don't* want to do either |
| 16:16 | <Philip`> | It's about doing stuff that you can manage given your current skill level, and that will make you more comfortable with what you know and will teach you new things |
| 16:16 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Those things are not easy to find |
| 16:16 | <Philip`> | and then you just repeat until you know everything |
| 16:17 | <workmad3> | Philip`: until you know everything? or until you're an expert? :) |
| 16:17 | workmad3 | is reminded of the cynical definition of an expert - 'A person who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing' |
| 16:20 | <jgraham> | Philip`: (or rather they can be if the language itself presents an interesting challenge -- thus making simpole excercises interesting -- or has a very shallow learning curve -- thus making intersting projects possible -- but these conditions do not always hold) |
| 16:23 | <Philip`> | Maybe it's better to find simple exercises within interesting projects |
| 16:24 | <Philip`> | i.e. patching someone else's project |
| 16:24 | <Philip`> | (as long as the project itself is reasonably clean and doesn't add a huge amount of extra complexity) |
| 16:24 | <Philip`> | because then you can do something that's both easy and useful |
| 16:26 | <Hixie> | annevk: oracle's comments had no effect on whether complete.html contained Web SQL Database, only Microsoft's and Mozilla's. |
| 16:27 | <Hixie> | annevk: and for the preprocessing, my script does various things but for the <!--START--> markers what i do is i have a script that runs through the file and keeps track of what is "on" and what is "off" |
| 16:27 | <Hixie> | and then outputs one file per marker, containing just the bits that are "on" and "off" |
| 16:27 | <Hixie> | i also have a separate output file which contains everything, which i use for validation |
| 16:29 | <Philip`> | print $f1 $_ if /<!--START1-->/ .. /<!--END1-->/; # this doesn't quite work since it'll print the first comment too :-( |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | I have a regular expression search that works quite well |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | however, annotating the XHR2 source file is a bitch |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | hopefully it is worth all the hours that it is going to cost me |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | I'm guessing it will help |
| 18:03 | <annevk> | and back from dinner |
| 18:03 | <annevk> | still at Schiphol |
| 18:04 | <annevk> | I think this is a personal low |
| 18:04 | <annevk> | and also a personal record |
| 18:54 | <annevk> | weird |
| 18:54 | <annevk> | http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/transliteration-goes-global.html |
| 18:54 | <annevk> | they don't trust Unicode / font support enough yet? |
| 19:06 | <Philip`> | Their alt text is hardly ideal |
| 19:14 | <AryehGregor> | Surely font support for Cyrillic is reliable. |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | what's the selector api method name again? |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | oh _query_ selector |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | nm |
| 19:26 | <zcorpan__> | Philip`: got a summary yet? :) |
| 21:36 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/empty-url-attributes.txt |
| 21:37 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: http://philip.html5.org/data/empty-url-link-attributes.txt |
| 21:37 | <Philip`> | Are those the kinds of things you want? |
| 21:37 | <Philip`> | (I assume you can figure out the weird undocumented inconsistent XML formats) |
| 21:39 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: yep, thanks! |
| 21:59 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: http://visionwow.com/ has lots of nul bytes which show up as u+fffd with html5.enable but don't render anything without html5.enable and in other browsers |
| 23:48 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: what's up with <attribute uri="gg.shenso.com/s/?q=ç element="img" name="src" value=""/> (missing quote)? |
| 23:56 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: Your browser is eating the quote |
| 23:57 | <zcorpan> | snap |