| 00:28 | <annevk> | >2700 |
| 00:28 | <annevk> | really going to bed now |
| 00:28 | <annevk> | also <2000 left |
| 03:06 | <Hixie> | ok i checked in the details/figure changes |
| 03:08 | <othermaciej> | yay! |
| 04:46 | <jwalden> | mm, tasty figcaptions |
| 05:00 | <karlcow> | good for figcaptions but summary is a mistake imho. element/attribute name being the same. People have hard time to understand the diff betweenn cite="", <cite> |
| 05:00 | <karlcow> | oh well. |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | it seems the Chrome team is set on beating our version number :-) |
| 10:48 | <Dashiva> | They could just pull a slackware |
| 10:49 | <Philip`> | Or a Windows |
| 10:49 | <annevk> | <figcaption> and <summary>, really? |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | apparently |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | i still think <legend> is better |
| 10:50 | annevk | longs for <legend> |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | toally |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | especially for <details> |
| 10:50 | <Hixie> | well for both really |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | is there any element name remotely similar to <figcaption>? |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | optgroup, colgroup |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | keyge |
| 10:51 | <Hixie> | n |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | well, they're the other way around |
| 10:52 | <annevk> | oh well |
| 10:52 | <Dashiva> | figurecap? |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | other way around? |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | keygen is the other way around |
| 10:52 | <Hixie> | optgroup is basically the same thing |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | <option> group -> optgroup, <figure> caption -> figcaption |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | but <legend> is the right answer. |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | just not the popular answer. |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | yay consensus. |
| 10:53 | <Hixie> | (assuming we even get consensus.) |
| 10:53 | <Dashiva> | Are you tempted to remove it from w3c HTML5 just so it can be added later when <legend> is viable? :P |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | i tried to remove <details> |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | there was an uproar |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | never though i'd see that many complaints about doing something shelley asked for so quickly |
| 10:54 | <Dashiva> | Only because you did it voluntarily |
| 10:54 | <Hixie> | thought, even |
| 10:54 | <Dashiva> | You have to wait for the WG decision |
| 10:56 | <annevk> | personally i'd rather drop them both too until <legend> works |
| 10:56 | <Hixie> | yeah me too but too many people want them now |
| 10:57 | <Hixie> | next time i think of adding something like this i'll make sure it really works, parser-wise, before adding it, since it's easier to keep something popular out than to remove it later. |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | yeah, and it's pretty costly at the price of two new elements :/ |
| 10:57 | <Hixie> | no kidding |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | feel free to raise an objection :-) |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | but i think there's no chance of either <legend> or removal being a WG decision |
| 10:58 | <Hixie> | still, at least we can point to this as proof the WHATWG is trying to cooperate :-) |
| 10:59 | <Dashiva> | Just find another w3c technology that predates details and does the same thing :P |
| 10:59 | Philip` | still doesn't see why making a new element name is worse than overloading an existing name to have different meanings depending on context |
| 11:00 | <Dashiva> | More rules to remember |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | I wonder if the chairs thought of the consequences for html5-diff when they started making things complex |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | Philip`: having four element names for legends instead of two makes it twice as hard to know which to use when you are in a situation where you need to use one |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | Maybe I should just define [HTML5] in html5-diff as the WHATWG copy :p |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | works for me :-P |
| 11:00 | <Hixie> | the whatwg copy references it :-) |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | Hixie, should I file a bug on s/srcdoc/srcDoc/ ? |
| 11:30 | <Hixie> | would it improve the web? |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | it would improve consistency |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | I agree it looks less nice |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | but it makes matters more predictable I think |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | due to stupid decisions earlier on |
| 11:33 | <Hixie> | i dunno that it really helps much in this case |
| 11:33 | jwalden | points out http://whereswalden.com/2010/01/29/humor/ for the benefit of anyone here not reading p.m.o (and who, incidentally, have by far the highest probability of understanding it of anyone who might read it :-) ) |
| 11:33 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 11:33 | <roc> | what would srcDoc improve consistency with? |
| 11:34 | <roc> | aren't all HTML attributes all lowercase? |
| 11:34 | <Hixie> | he's talking about the IDL attribute |
| 11:35 | <Dashiva> | Shouldn't it be src-doc in HTML to be srcDoc in IDL? |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | not necessarily |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | e.g. contentEditable |
| 11:36 | <jwalden> | I don't think I care, but: document.createElement("a").hreflang |
| 11:36 | <jwalden> | may be the odd man out |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | yeah, I just noticed that one |
| 11:36 | <Hixie> | i think looking for consistency in HTML and its APIs is a fool's errand |
| 11:36 | <Hixie> | i'd just go with what makes the most sense |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | I guess hreflang sets a precedence for both |
| 11:37 | <jwalden> | I see hreflang as similar because the first word of the compound is abbreviated; are there others like that which are capitalized? |
| 11:37 | <Dashiva> | .tBodies |
| 11:37 | <jwalden> | or not-abbreviated but lowercase-mashed |
| 11:38 | <jwalden> | whoa, that's some funky caps |
| 11:38 | jwalden | never would have guessed .tBodies existed |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | others are e.g. tabIndex, contextMenu, accessKey, maxLength, readOnly, useMap, isMap |
| 11:39 | <jwalden> | bgColor counters hreflang's precedent |
| 11:39 | <Dashiva> | I guess it's a bit off topic since there's no a content attribute for it |
| 11:39 | <jwalden> | or maybe it's only lower-mash if all parts are abbrevs? |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | and a bunch of presentational and obsoleted attributes, noShade, noHref, bgColor, ... |
| 11:40 | jwalden | continues on the fool's errand |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | vAlign counters that somewhat |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | or colSpan |
| 11:55 | <Hixie> | ignore the deprecated ones when looking for a pattern to hang this lampshade on |
| 11:55 | <Hixie> | we can argue those won't be used by authors so aren't relevant |
| 11:57 | <jwalden> | enctype, I'm guessing, isn't deprecated, maybe argues for "short" compounds not being capsed |
| 11:58 | <jwalden> | but I'm getting tired of racking brains for obscure element names :-) |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | I'm fine with srcdoc, but I also successfully argued for itemId, itemType, itemValue, itemRef, itemProp, and itemScope |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | so I guess in the future someone can point at this line on krijnhoetmer.nl and blame me if they got confused |
| 12:01 | <Dashiva> | There I'd argue item is a common prefix, so the camelcase is useful |
| 12:02 | <Dashiva> | However, srcdoc is abbreviated enough to be equally readable with or without |
| 12:02 | <Dashiva> | (in my opinion) |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | hopefully the confused people of the future will concur |
| 12:05 | <Hixie> | i agree with Dashiva |
| 12:05 | <jwalden> | yeah |
| 12:49 | <Hixie> | i'm no network person, so if anyone can find a better way to do this: |
| 12:49 | <Hixie> | http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/websocket/saturate.html |
| 12:49 | <Hixie> | ...that would be awesome |
| 12:49 | <Hixie> | i'm going to bed now. |
| 12:49 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | is anyone following stuff like http://www.w3.org/TR/contacts-api/ ? |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | related, anyone knows if cloning technology is getting any better? |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | whoa |
| 13:53 | annevk | just read a bunch of messages in the <canvas> accessibility thread |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | >3000 |
| 14:32 | gsnedders | waves |
| 14:32 | <gsnedders> | (from Oslo) |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | Oslo is cool |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | you should go skiing |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | some skiing stuff of mine is at Lachy's place |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | feel free to borrow |
| 14:34 | <gsnedders> | Probably too big for me, tall man. |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | the glasses will be alright :) |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | but yeah, the outfit, dunno about that :p |
| 14:35 | gsnedders | has glasses of his own in Scotland :P |
| 14:37 | gsnedders | needs to decide what to do today |
| 14:37 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, I thought you weren't arriving in Oslo till tomorow? |
| 14:37 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: Wrong. |
| 14:38 | <Lachy> | I would go skiing, but unfortunately I can't for at least another 4 to 6 weeks. :-( |
| 14:39 | <gsnedders> | First thing I need to do is get lunch, though |
| 14:42 | gsnedders | thinks wondering around town might be a good idea for today, seeming everything closes soon |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | how are the roads? |
| 14:44 | <gsnedders> | Bit icy, not bad |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | there's a bicycle at Marcos' place |
| 14:44 | <gsnedders> | Better than lkpg |
| 14:44 | gsnedders | hasn't ridden a bike much i years |
| 14:45 | <gsnedders> | I also have no idea where Marcos' place is :P |
| 14:45 | <Lachy> | gsnedders, what street are you in? |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | Storgate |
| 14:46 | <gsnedders> | *gata |
| 14:46 | gsnedders | fails Norwegian |
| 14:47 | <Lachy> | oh, is that where your hotel is, or just where you are now? |
| 14:47 | <gsnedders> | Both :) |
| 14:48 | <gsnedders> | I'm in the Anker Hotel |
| 14:48 | <Lachy> | ok. They didn't put you where I thought they might, closer to Opera. |
| 14:48 | <Lachy> | but at least it's not too far. Just jump on bus 34 or 54 on monday morning |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | you should've asked for an apartment |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | they're 5min from Opera rather than 25 |
| 14:49 | gsnedders | really doesn't care |
| 14:52 | <gsnedders> | OK, I'm going to head into town and get food and wonder around |
| 15:13 | TabAtkins | is befuddled by smart compilers rearranging his computations for efficiency. |
| 15:14 | <TabAtkins> | I understand that moving the division into a non-critical path so it can be done at the computer's leisure is *theoretically* a good thing, but the fact that this actually translates into a 10% speedup is astonishing. |
| 15:17 | <Philip`> | It's more befuddling because CPUs rearrange computations too |
| 15:19 | <TabAtkins> | I know! It's crazy. |
| 15:19 | <TabAtkins> | I would never have thought to swap my algorithm around to move where the division takes place. |
| 15:19 | <TabAtkins> | I think I'm spoiled by not ever coding in C? |
| 15:20 | <Philip`> | Was it moved out of a loop or something? |
| 15:20 | <Dashiva> | Or into a rare conditional branch? |
| 15:20 | Philip` | wouldn't expect simple shuffling to affect much |
| 15:21 | <annevk> | oh yes, <1300 |
| 15:21 | <annevk> | only 800-900 to go to get back to the old level |
| 15:22 | <TabAtkins> | I was doing an array walk, based on the value in the array. Previously the division was required to find the next index and I simply collected the value, but I swapped it so I use the division to collect values, and use the array val itself as the next index. |
| 15:22 | <TabAtkins> | (In more specific terms, I was factoring a number using a slightly modified Sieve of Eratosthenes. Originally I stored the smallest factor of the index, now I store the largest factor.) |
| 15:26 | <Philip`> | You mean so it can now do the division and memory fetch in parallel, or something like that? |
| 15:26 | <TabAtkins> | I presume that's what is happening, yes. |
| 15:27 | <Philip`> | Sounds plausible |
| 15:56 | <annevk> | <1000 |
| 15:56 | <annevk> | really time for breakfast/lunch/dinner or any kind of food now |
| 16:22 | <annevk> | <900 |
| 16:23 | <Dashiva> | Maybe you should make a graph, like Hixie :P |
| 16:23 | jgraham | is plesed to find that gsnedders did not get stuck in Katrineholm |
| 16:23 | <jgraham> | sp? |
| 16:24 | <jgraham> | Ah no, I spelt it right |
| 16:26 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: The train from Lkpg was 20/25 mins late |
| 16:27 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: But not enough for the 45 min change |
| 16:27 | <gsnedders> | Also: is it bad my first thought upon realizing I had 20 mins to wait was, "Where can I get fika?" |
| 16:29 | <gsnedders> | Also: food is so fucking expensive. |
| 16:29 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Could have been worse. You might have thought "help, I'm covered in bees", which, given the climate, would have implied that you were having weird hallucinations. |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | Aren't you supposed to be enjoying Norway or something? |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | It's dark outside now, and everything's shut. |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | And I have no friends. |
| 16:30 | gsnedders | just had lunch |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | Sounds quite like Linkoping |
| 16:31 | <gsnedders> | Yeah, just lunch costs more for worse food. |
| 16:32 | <jgraham> | (!!) |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | you should go to better places then :) |
| 16:33 | <gsnedders> | Hey, I'm on my own in a city I've never been in before. |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | oh, zcorpan submitted a patch for web-apps-tracker |
| 16:42 | <TabAtkins> | I'm pretty sure that "help, I'm covered in bees" is a pretty bad thought to have regardless of the climate. |
| 16:43 | <gsnedders> | On the bright side, it seems warmer here |
| 16:43 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: It is like -17 here |
| 16:44 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: What if you're a bee keeper? |
| 16:44 | <TabAtkins> | In that case you're shouting for help. Still no good. |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I guess I got out in time |
| 16:44 | <Philip`> | Maybe you're covering yourself in bees and running around as a publicity stunt |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: It didn't seem -17 when I left at 8am though |
| 16:44 | gsnedders | loves Philip`'s ridiculous alternative reasons for things |
| 16:45 | <Philip`> | Why is it ridiculous? |
| 16:45 | <Philip`> | I'm sure I've seen that on TV |
| 16:46 | <Dashiva> | I don't think they say help |
| 16:46 | <TabAtkins> | I'd still rate that a not-good situation to be in, personally. |
| 16:46 | <TabAtkins> | I suppose it's the best of all the bad situations? |
| 16:46 | <Dashiva> | Well, maybe bees is also the name of some kind of delicious batter |
| 16:47 | <Dashiva> | And you need help to eat it all up because it's too much for one person |
| 16:47 | <Philip`> | Being covered in batter doesn't seem good in any situation |
| 16:47 | <Dashiva> | Better than bees |
| 16:47 | <Philip`> | Just ask the fish |
| 16:48 | <Philip`> | Fish will complain about batter, not about bees |
| 16:48 | <TabAtkins> | If you covered a fish in bees, it would complain. |
| 16:48 | <Dashiva> | That's because a fish in a position to be covered in bees has bigger trouble than just the bees (i.e. being on land) |
| 16:49 | TabAtkins | supposes this isn't any more ridiculous than the "vampires vs werewolves" debate he had in the bar last night. But at least he was drunk then. |
| 16:50 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: You're making unsafe generalisations |
| 16:50 | <TabAtkins> | I refuse to consider underwater bees. |
| 16:50 | <Philip`> | The fish might have fashioned itself a raft of bees, so it can float safely across shallow water |
| 16:52 | <Dashiva> | s/on land/out of water/ |
| 16:52 | <TabAtkins> | Can it truly be said to be 'covered in' bees, then? |
| 16:53 | <Philip`> | The weight of the fish is sufficient to ensure it actually remains in the water, with the bees providing just enough buoyancy to not sink |
| 16:53 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: Yes, the raft also has a roof made of bees, to keep the rain off |
| 16:53 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, yes, the fish wouldn't want to get wet. |
| 16:53 | <Dashiva> | I don't think being inside a structure counts as covered |
| 16:53 | <Dashiva> | It would have to be quite tight-fitting |
| 16:55 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: It was like -20something this morning |
| 16:55 | <gsnedders> | It didn't feel that bad. |
| 16:55 | <jgraham> | Possibly all your nerve endings have withered in the cold |
| 16:58 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Do you know how hard it is for a fish to collect bees and knit them together? |
| 16:59 | <Philip`> | It's going to be tight-fitting just to save on the material and construction costs |
| 16:59 | <Dashiva> | Then it's not a raft anymore |
| 17:00 | <Philip`> | Now you're just quibbling over technicalities |
| 17:01 | <Dashiva> | As opposed to when? :P |
| 17:04 | <Dashiva> | krijnh: How are those "funny" and "interesting" tags coming along? ;) |
| 17:14 | <annevk> | http://masinter.blogspot.com/2010/01/over-specification-is-anti-competitive.html "reverse engineering" myth |
| 17:14 | <annevk> | sometimes I'd really like some of that stuff all these people are smoking |
| 17:15 | <annevk> | but it's prolly not good for your health |
| 17:56 | <annevk> | 666 |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | maybe I should stop for today |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/gruber/status/8404044407 and http://twitter.com/gruber/status/8417800859 are funny and interesting (about Flash usage) |
| 18:10 | <Dashiva> | I wonder how many are just running noscript or somesuch |
| 19:01 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: I guess a lot of them are running flashblock or similar. Especially given Gruber's audience and the legendarily bad performance of flash on non-Windows platforms |
| 20:26 | <annevk> | <500 |
| 20:26 | <annevk> | back to normal I suppose |
| 20:26 | <annevk> | took a little longer than expected |
| 20:28 | <hsivonen> | gruber's readers use iPhones |
| 20:29 | hsivonen | read DF last week on Maemo with Flash disabled for stability reasons |
| 21:21 | <Viper550> | I find it ridiclous that afaik, your forum is so standards incompliant |
| 21:26 | <Philip`> | What would be the value of spending effort making it more compliant? |
| 21:29 | <jgraham> | Or, to put it differently, are you offering to spend the effort needed to provide a different forum? |
| 21:31 | <annevk> | we could look for a more compliant forum |
| 21:33 | <jgraham> | Sure |
| 21:36 | <Hixie> | what does it do that is not compliant? |
| 21:37 | <Hixie> | we can always change the spec if there's no value in making it more compliant |
| 21:39 | <Lachy> | Hixie, that's cheating :-) |
| 21:40 | <Lachy> | but it uses a bunch of presentational attributes |
| 21:40 | <Lachy> | it also seems to declare the encoding wrongly with <meta> as ISO-8859-1 instead of UTF-8 |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | ah, well then it's probably not optimally accessible |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | and will have i18n issues |
| 21:40 | <Hixie> | best to fix the problems |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | seems I haven't checked the forums since september |
| 21:47 | <annevk> | hmm, FAQ is still somewhat wrong |
| 21:47 | <annevk> | though I guess removing HTML5 everywhere will just make matters more confusing at this point |
| 21:48 | <Viper550> | plus phpbb2 is olllllllld |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | whoa, Dell sucks with international pricing |
| 21:48 | <Viper550> | maybe just go to fluxbb? |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | Adamo is EUR 720 in US and EUR 1350 in the Netherlands |
| 22:17 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: Yeah, I know glazou figured that out and bought a computer last TPAC. Get one of us americans to buy for you and ship it? |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | no it's okay, though that's an interesting offer I might take you up on one day :) |
| 22:27 | <TabAtkins> | I'd be happy to help if you ever need it. Market segmentation is annoying as hell, even if I *usually* benefit from it. ^_^ |