| 01:18 | <Hixie> | apparently shelley's reading comprehension isn't very good. In response to the e-mail where I explain my opinion is irrelevant, she asks for my opinion again |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | I wonder what her obsession with my opinion today is about, given that she usually thinks my opinion is worthless |
| 01:21 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: She needs to know your opinion to make sure she doesn't agree with it? :P |
| 01:52 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: that is sadly far too consistent with previous behaviour |
| 05:15 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0792.html is interesting |
| 05:16 | <MikeSmith> | Charles Pritchard, "Advanced Pointer Events: Use Cases" |
| 05:46 | <MikeSmith> | boblet: hey, I just realized something, which is that I'm not going to be in town on March 27 |
| 05:46 | <MikeSmith> | off-by-one error |
| 05:46 | <MikeSmith> | the one being one month |
| 05:46 | <MikeSmith> | I had been thinking we'd talked about April 27, not March 27 |
| 06:24 | <hsivonen> | have I understood correctly that geopriv would involve the user making privacy choices in the browser chrome but the browsers would be unable to enforce the settings and instead the user would have to trust the site to be benevolent and obedient? |
| 06:26 | hsivonen | has read www-tag again |
| 06:58 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: that sucks |
| 07:02 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yes |
| 07:29 | <MikeSmith> | bb |
| 07:30 | <MikeSmith> | boblet: I got a copy of hatano-san's book in the mail today |
| 07:30 | <MikeSmith> | beefy |
| 07:30 | <MikeSmith> | 550+ pages |
| 07:45 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: hey, great stuff! He must be relieved |
| 07:45 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 07:46 | <boblet> | what’s it like? manual style? explanation? examples? tutorials? practical use cases? |
| 07:46 | <boblet> | I’m guessing more explaining the spec style with made-up examples |
| 07:46 | <MikeSmith> | boblet: reference-like |
| 07:47 | <boblet> | that fits with his site |
| 07:48 | <MikeSmith> | HTML5 マークアプ ガイドブク |
| 07:48 | <MikeSmith> | マークアップ, make that |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, which sounds very unnatural as a transliteration |
| 07:49 | <boblet> | man 550 pages. what a machine |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | seems like it would better just be マーカップ |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | but oh well |
| 07:50 | <boblet> | c’mon you know Japanese transliteration ignores naturalness |
| 07:50 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 07:52 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: i got the html5 books btw |
| 07:52 | <Hixie> | can't read anything but the acronyms, but... :-) |
| 07:52 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: ah, cool |
| 07:53 | <boblet> | Hixie: both the Japanese ones? nice :) |
| 07:53 | <MikeSmith> | you may have a copy of Hatano-san's book on the way to you as well, not sure |
| 07:53 | <MikeSmith> | oh, "books" |
| 07:53 | <Hixie> | boblet: yeah |
| 07:53 | <MikeSmith> | great |
| 07:54 | <boblet> | yeah we were telling Shiraishi-san he should definitely send you a copy |
| 07:54 | <boblet> | good to see Japan showing up all the English authors |
| 07:54 | <MikeSmith> | both Shiraishi-san and Hatano-san are speaking at the Google DevFest event here tomorrow |
| 07:54 | <boblet> | (or sticking to publisher schedules regardless of the spec ;-) ) |
| 07:56 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 07:59 | <MikeSmith> | Futomi gots his portrait picture on the About the Author page of his book |
| 08:00 | <MikeSmith> | he looks kind of pissed off, like he's getting ready to kick somebody's ass |
| 08:00 | <boblet> | was prolly meant to be his serious face (unless writing the book really did take a toll ;-) |
| 08:01 | <MikeSmith> | I will say that both dudes should have included an prominent URL for an Errata/Updates page |
| 08:01 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: why? |
| 08:01 | boblet | rofls |
| 08:02 | <boblet> | there won’t be changes will there? |
| 08:02 | <boblet> | heh |
| 08:03 | <MikeSmith> | hopefully the first printing will sell out quickly and they can add a URL to the next print run |
| 08:03 | <boblet> | definitely seems like it’s the hot topic, so here’s hoping |
| 08:06 | <Hixie> | if we do end up using a non-versioned model in the future, we'll have to find some solution to handle referring to the latesrt version for books and the like |
| 08:07 | <Hixie> | maybe the w3c will just publish annual RECs that include whatever the latest implemented stuff is :-) |
| 08:11 | <nessy> | wishful thinking ;) |
| 09:28 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Still awake? |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: here |
| 09:32 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: So for Anolis 2 I was planning on changing the way TOC/num worked; Anolis 1 just gets all headers of a certain depth, but I was planning on changing it to only get children of a certain section (specified by class on either the sectioning content or heading content element). That seem reasonable? |
| 09:33 | <Hixie> | come again? |
| 09:33 | <gsnedders> | Anolis 1 you just have min-depth and max-depth that controls what is in the TOC, right? |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | i wasn't aware there was even that much |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | so long as it grabs all the headers except the ones marked notoc, i'm good |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | if it does that by looking at the notoc class, or some other magic like determining automatically which should have had notoc, i don't mind |
| 09:38 | <gsnedders> | But how does it know not to number the top no-toc, and start level one at its children? |
| 09:39 | <Hixie> | magic? |
| 09:39 | <gsnedders> | As normally that would end up as 0.1 as the first child |
| 09:39 | <Hixie> | i don't understand the problem you're trying to solve :-) |
| 09:40 | <gsnedders> | Oh, just trying not to remove features inherieted from the PP, and not wanting to add magic |
| 09:41 | <Hixie> | well so long as it doesn't change, i don't really mind either way |
| 09:41 | <Hixie> | the output, i mean |
| 09:42 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: But if we just go with that, which proibably works in any case for everyone who uses it, can you add no-num no-toc to the hgroup in the whatwg header? |
| 09:42 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: And to the h1 in the w3c header? |
| 09:54 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: sure |
| 10:02 | <MikeSmith> | Andrey Kosyakov. Web Inspector: display list of active workers & support debugging with fake workers. https://bugs.w… http://a.gd/wk55771 |
| 10:02 | <MikeSmith> | that sounds pretty cool |
| 13:07 | hsivonen | wonders if IE does the isindex magic if there's a valueless <input type=image> before the <input name=isindex> |
| 13:15 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, I can test it for you if you have a test page |
| 13:15 | <Lachy> | if you don't have IE available yourself |
| 13:16 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen must have IE now |
| 13:16 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: btw, where you been man |
| 13:16 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: seems like you've not been around on #whatwg so much lately |
| 13:17 | <hsivonen> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/398 |
| 13:18 | <hsivonen> | looks like Firefox 3.5 submits x and y in that case |
| 13:19 | <hsivonen> | looks like I was worried about dead code |
| 13:21 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, I've been really busy for the past few weeks doing Carakan QA, getting ready for shipping 10.50. And since then, I've mostly just been taking a break from HTMLWG stuff |
| 13:22 | <Lachy> | hsivonen, in IE, if I enter "test" into the input and press enter, it just submits "test". If I click the image, it also submits the x and y coords. |
| 13:22 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: thanks |
| 13:24 | <boblet> | interesting. Last week Google Search cached pages used <b><mark>term</mark></b>, but now use nested b |
| 13:25 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: apparently Firefox counts the return as clicking type=image at 0,0 but IE doesn't |
| 13:51 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: We kidnapped Lachy and moved him to Sweden for a while. |
| 13:52 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: What he just said was really what we ordered him to say while we had him hostage |
| 13:53 | <Philip`> | If that was the case, why would you admit it? |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | Perhaps what's really happened is that he has kidnapped you, and is ordering you to say the opposite in order to allay suspicions |
| 14:14 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: I wonder if Lachy loves Sweden as much as he loves Norway |
| 14:15 | <Lachy> | No. Norway is better |
| 14:16 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 14:16 | <Lachy> | well, at least Oslo is better than Linköping. |
| 14:16 | <MikeSmith> | <snort> |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | At least it's easier to spell |
| 14:16 | <MikeSmith> | well, nothing can compare to the wonders of Oslo |
| 14:16 | <Dashiva> | Which wonders are those? |
| 14:17 | <Lachy> | Linköping isn't hard to spell, once you learn how to enter the ö character |
| 14:17 | <Lachy> | it is hard to pronounce, though |
| 14:18 | <Lachy> | it's not spelled in any sensible way for how it is pronounced. |
| 14:18 | <workmad3> | Lachy: my pronunciation of it would suck - I'm thinking of it as 'link o ping' |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: the Stargate, just to name one highlight |
| 14:19 | <Dashiva> | Did they build that recently? I don't recall seeing it |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | <link ping="..."> |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: it comes and goes |
| 14:19 | <Philip`> | Hmm, not supported in HTML5 :-( |
| 14:19 | <Lachy> | it's more like Lin-chirping, but, the 'ch' is softer sound than usual |
| 14:20 | <Lachy> | gsnedders can probably tell you the IPA for it |
| 14:20 | <workmad3> | Lachy: more like a 'sh' than a 'ch' perhaps? |
| 14:20 | <MikeSmith> | "LPI" is the IPA for it, I'm pretty sure |
| 14:20 | <Lachy> | sort of a cross between them, I think |
| 14:20 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: Do they have one of those cool giant spinny things like in Contact, or is it just a boring shimmering hole? |
| 14:21 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: "shimmering hole" is more like it |
| 14:21 | <MikeSmith> | shimmering like a puddle of something |
| 14:21 | <MikeSmith> | with an oil slick of some kind on the surface |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | or at least you hope it's just oil and not something worse |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | seriously, the parts of Oslo where there are actual trees are wonderful |
| 14:23 | <MikeSmith> | like the part the runs along the river that's next to the Opera office |
| 14:23 | <asmodai> | not sure if this was shared yet http://mrdoob.com/lab/javascript/harmony |
| 14:31 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2010JanMar/0116.html |
| 14:31 | <MikeSmith> | bravo Murakami-san |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | IE doesn't even support <rp> |
| 14:35 | <asmodai> | Hah, fucking awesome. Hadn't seen his reply yet. |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | UAs ought to always support ruby, screw fallback |
| 14:37 | <Dashiva> | annevk: Make UAs ignore bracket-type characters inside <ruby>? |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | huh? |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | I mean that UAs should always support ruby rendering so authors do not have to care about <rp> or fallback for ruby |
| 14:48 | <Dashiva> | Old browsers exist, we can't do much about that |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, you still there? |
| 14:48 | annevk | wonders whether the <cite> element really changed |
| 14:48 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: yeah, here for a bit |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | HTML4 does not say much about it, though HTML5 does contradict a non-normative example that one of the editors of HTML4 thought was wrong |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | not really sure what to say about it |
| 14:49 | <MikeSmith> | I think <cite> is changed at least as far as the fact that the example in the HTML4 spec is no longer conformant |
| 14:49 | <MikeSmith> | the example that uses <cite> for a name |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 14:49 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: yeah, what you said |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | but there's no normative text that supports the example |
| 14:49 | <MikeSmith> | agreed |
| 14:50 | <MikeSmith> | but that's sort of not exceptional in the case of HTML4 |
| 14:50 | <MikeSmith> | I guess |
| 14:50 | <MikeSmith> | I think there are other instances of the examples having resulted in bad practices that the spec did not normatively describe |
| 14:51 | <MikeSmith> | so I guess we could say it's a change to existing practices that the HTML4 spec implicitly encouraged |
| 14:51 | <MikeSmith> | or some such |
| 14:52 | <MikeSmith> | I do think Jeremy is right to say that users should be alerted to this as being a more explicit restriction in HTML5 |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | mkay |
| 14:56 | <Philip`> | annevk: I thought IE did support <rp> when I tested it |
| 14:56 | <Philip`> | though IE8 beta in IE8-mode had regressions |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | ok, it's not listed on msdn... |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | guess I shouldn't rely on that |
| 14:59 | <Philip`> | Reading MSDN is never quite an adequate substitute for testing |
| 15:04 | Philip` | tests IE8 |
| 15:04 | <Philip`> | annevk: It does indeed hide <rp> |
| 15:04 | <Philip`> | (in IE8 mode and in quirks mode) |
| 15:12 | hsivonen | wonders if IPA is expressive enough to capture the sv-SE and sv-FI differences in the pronunciation of the 'k' in Linköping |
| 15:18 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: k in sv-FI is more dorsal, or am I misremembering? |
| 15:19 | <mut> | hey,can i change the letter spacing in canvas? |
| 15:20 | <Philip`> | No |
| 15:20 | <mut> | :/ |
| 15:20 | <Philip`> | except by doing fillText("H e l l o") etc |
| 15:20 | <mut> | ok :) |
| 15:20 | <mut> | ok |
| 15:20 | <mut> | I wanted to group it closer |
| 15:20 | <mut> | no problem though |
| 15:21 | <Philip`> | (You can only change the CSS 'font' property for text, and letter-spacing isn't part of that) |
| 15:22 | <mut> | ok |
| 15:22 | <mut> | shame :s |
| 15:22 | <mut> | its ok though, i can just overlay an image |
| 15:23 | <mut> | the text isnt dynamic so no problem |
| 15:23 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: I guess it counts as more dorsal compared to sv-SE. |
| 15:24 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: it's more like 'ch' in English "check" |
| 15:25 | <Philip`> | mut: I think the idea is that there should eventually be a drawHTMLElement() function, rather than putting more and more of CSS into custom canvas drawing functions |
| 15:28 | <mut> | ok |
| 15:28 | <mut> | ok yea that makes sense |
| 15:29 | <mut> | hmm |
| 15:29 | <mut> | im drawing the same drawing twice on 2 different canvass(canvii!?) the second of wich is in a full screen div, so that i can show a preview,and have the full size one slide down |
| 15:30 | <mut> | one scaled up, one scaled down |
| 15:30 | <mut> | works fine in ff, for some reason it justwont work in ie |
| 15:30 | <mut> | only the smaller one shows |
| 15:30 | <mut> | any idea? |
| 15:30 | <Philip`> | Using excanvas in IE? |
| 15:30 | <mut> | yea |
| 15:31 | <Philip`> | I have no idea how that works |
| 15:31 | <Philip`> | other than having an idea that it often doesn't work |
| 15:31 | <Philip`> | so I wouldn't be surprised by it breaking :-) |
| 15:31 | <mut> | all im doing is ctx = smallcanvas; drawCanvas(); ctx = largeCanvas; drawCanvas |
| 15:31 | <mut> | so if it works on the small on, surely.....? |
| 15:31 | <mut> | heh |
| 15:32 | Philip` | shrugs |
| 15:32 | <mut> | mabe im putting too much faith into logic |
| 15:32 | <mut> | ;) |
| 15:39 | <mut> | hmmm |
| 15:39 | <mut> | seems like excanvas dosentsupport multiple canvases |
| 15:41 | <Philip`> | That seems odd |
| 15:52 | <mut> | yea |
| 15:52 | <mut> | im gonna do a quick test with something real simple just to prove it |
| 16:16 | Philip` | didn't realise there was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-jp/ explicitly about HTML5 |
| 16:56 | <annevk> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/4d46b00c2a90/tests/submission/Microsoft/htmldom/HTMLAnchorElement01.html the Microsoft submitted testcases are actually DOM2HTML tests? |
| 16:56 | <annevk> | not even updated? |
| 16:56 | annevk | wonders what the value of that is |
| 16:59 | <Philip`> | annevk: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-testsuite/2010Feb/0009.html etc |
| 17:00 | <Philip`> | I don't think they're expected to be correct, they're just believed to be better than starting from scratch |
| 17:01 | <Philip`> | because maybe some of them still reveal bugs |
| 17:03 | Philip` | thinks the effort would be better spent on a systematic comprehensive approach to testing the HTML5 IDL instead |
| 17:07 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 17:07 | <annevk> | me too |
| 17:07 | <annevk> | updating tests is tricky |
| 17:10 | Philip` | started an IDL test script but then got bored and gave up |
| 18:05 | <LoneStar99> | what is the best way to delete a canvas path, when the cursor is dragged on it? |
| 22:05 | jgraham | agrees that trying to reuse DOM2 tests is a bad idea |
| 22:05 | <jgraham> | Maybe I shoul say o on the list or someting |
| 22:06 | jgraham | wonders if having conference calls is making people decide stuff in calls rather than ask the list |
| 22:06 | <jgraham> | (or if I just haven't been paying enough attention) |
| 22:07 | <annevk> | I haven't paid much attention either to be honest... |