| 00:38 | <wycats> | Hixie: you around? |
| 01:52 | <TabAtkins> | Yay, finally in California! |
| 01:52 | TabAtkins | 's roadtrip has gone on far too long. |
| 01:58 | <othermaciej> | heya TabAtkins |
| 01:58 | <TabAtkins> | Yo maciej. |
| 03:09 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: Thanks for combining all your replies based on their general topic. :) |
| 03:09 | <GPHemsley> | Hixie: It would have been even better if you'd included the original subject before each quote, though. ;) |
| 04:05 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: unfortunately pine doesn't make that very easy :-( |
| 06:19 | <asmodai> | So is that platform preview of IE9 installable next to IE8 or will it overwrite? |
| 06:21 | <asmodai> | ah, looks like it can be installed side by side |
| 06:21 | <asmodai> | We designed the Platform Preview to be installed, side by side with IE8. The Platform Preview is not a replacement for your daily browser; [...] |
| 06:21 | <hsivonen> | personal sites aren't WP:RS? Mine seems to be. |
| 06:21 | <asmodai> | WP:RS? |
| 06:27 | <hsivonen> | asmodai: reputavble source for wikipedia |
| 06:28 | <othermaciej> | their notion of what is a reputable source always strikes me as confusing |
| 06:32 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: Aye. |
| 06:32 | <asmodai> | othermaciej: It's based on whatever whim some editor now has. |
| 06:33 | <othermaciej> | there's pages where a direct edit from me would be original research, my email to someone else would not be a reliable source, but me posting the same info on the webkit.org does count as a reliable source |
| 08:43 | <asmodai> | http://desandro.com/resources/curtis-css-typeface/ |
| 09:42 | <asmodai> | Mmm, IE9 breaks down on the DOM attributes (Prototype) of dromaeo |
| 09:46 | <hsivonen> | can a window or window.document object be queried for its intent to navigate? |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | problem: I have a library method that takes a window object and tries to decide of the window object is done navigating and loading |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | if the window object came from window.open immediately before, it'll have about:blank in readyState "complete" |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | so it's indistinguishable from a window that intends to stay as about:blank |
| 10:28 | <hsivonen> | XML is still awesome: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/screen/visitmix-ysod.png |
| 10:29 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: hehehe |
| 10:38 | <asmodai> | Kuruma: I love the nickname :) 車ですね。。。 |
| 10:42 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: seems to be fixed now - I guess someone noticed? |
| 10:44 | <jgraham> | Just another benefit of XML: when you have a minor irrelevant problem someone has to scramble to fix it urgently |
| 10:46 | <othermaciej> | XML probably made more sense when most content was static |
| 10:46 | <othermaciej> | did IE9 get a negative response in some quarters? |
| 10:47 | <othermaciej> | (I'm reading mollydotcom's twitter feed and it sounds defensive) |
| 10:52 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: I get text/html on that page - how come it was XML? |
| 10:53 | <asmodai> | So far I am impressed with IE9, there might be hope for MS on the standards front. |
| 10:53 | <lazni> | I also get a/h+x |
| 10:53 | <lazni> | *a/x+x |
| 10:54 | <lazni> | only in fx |
| 10:54 | Philip` | was looking in Firefox 3.6 |
| 10:55 | <Philip`> | Do things like http://live.visitmix.com/search?term=cheese%01 break too? |
| 10:56 | <Philip`> | (The cheese is probably unnecessary) |
| 10:57 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: yes: value="cheese" |
| 10:58 | <lazni> | 3.7a4pre |
| 10:58 | <lazni> | renders a bit, then ysod with no text |
| 10:58 | <Philip`> | I get text/html there too |
| 10:59 | <Philip`> | Hmm, now http://live.visitmix.com/ gives me a YSOD |
| 10:59 | <Philip`> | so it's not fixed yet |
| 10:59 | <Philip`> | when using some version of Minefield/3.7a2pre |
| 11:00 | <zcorpan> | i guess now when ie will support xhtml, we'll get to see a lot more YSODs |
| 11:00 | <Philip`> | Seems to be working reliably in my Firefox and failing reliably in my Minefield |
| 11:00 | <Philip`> | (where "working" means "using text/html") |
| 11:01 | <Philip`> | Someone should start a blog that collects YSODs on the sites of people who ought to know better |
| 11:05 | <jgraham> | WFM in Opera + Chrome FFM in Minefield |
| 11:06 | lazni | installs UA switcher |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | Viewing the page in IE9, I get a script error dialog box |
| 11:13 | <Philip`> | It gets sent text/html |
| 11:16 | <Philip`> | (based on User-Agent sniffing) |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | whatwg cabal -- always breaking your interwebs |
| 11:18 | <asmodai> | hah |
| 11:23 | <asmodai> | annevk: Do you guys also fix intarwebs? |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | we try to fix part of the "foundation" |
| 11:27 | <Philip`> | But mostly we just point and laugh |
| 11:27 | <Philip`> | (or cry) |
| 11:28 | <annevk> | or shrug etc. |
| 11:30 | <asmodai> | Philip`: Sometimes I think cry is the more appropriate reaction. |
| 11:31 | <asmodai> | Then again, if I had to shed a tear for every abuse of the web standards I find I'd be a dried out husk by now. |
| 11:46 | <asmodai> | annevk: 10.10 vs 10.50 -- 10.50 had a completely overhauled js engine or was it incremental. |
| 11:46 | <gsnedders> | asmodai: Completely new |
| 11:47 | <asmodai> | Thankee |
| 11:48 | <asmodai> | someone @ tweakers asking about the perf numbers |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | asmodai, version numbers are a game marketing plays that nobody understands, not even those involved |
| 11:50 | <asmodai> | annevk: Hahaha, oh I know. Just wanted to enlighten somenoe. |
| 11:50 | <asmodai> | annevk: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/66227/microsoft-zet-previewversie-internet-explorer-9-online.html |
| 11:50 | gsnedders | pretends to be annevk and understand that |
| 11:51 | <asmodai> | When I commented there were no replies yet. |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | asmodai, ah, I guess the confusion in that thread is that our version numbers are like decimal numbers nowadays, confusingly different from what everyone else is doing |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | asmodai, though not everyone internally agrees they are like decimal numbers, making matters even more weird |
| 11:53 | <annevk> | fortunately we offer the latest version on opera.com and you don't have to pick one :) |
| 11:53 | <Dashiva> | Do like ATI and release Opera X1 next |
| 11:53 | <mpilgrim> | so as far as i can tell, julian seems determined to trap hixie into stating that there will always be a group maintaining html within the organization that has been trying to kill and/or replace html since the day it was founded |
| 11:53 | <mpilgrim> | which, when you say it out loud, does seem kind of silly |
| 11:54 | <Dashiva> | More like as long as anyone cares about HTML, there will be someone mainining HTML |
| 11:54 | <Dashiva> | And when nobody cares anymore, who cares? (Nobody) |
| 11:54 | <asmodai> | Anyone, anyone, Bueller? |
| 11:55 | <mpilgrim> | Maybe he's saying that, once hixie gets hit by a bus, the Serious Standards People promise to stop working on HTML. Again. |
| 11:55 | <Dashiva> | WHATWG is the prime example of this |
| 11:55 | <mpilgrim> | which is certainly not outside the realm of possibility |
| 11:55 | <Dashiva> | w3c dropped the ball completely, but people still cared about HTML, so WHATWG was formed to continue the work |
| 11:56 | mpilgrim | is pretty sure he knew that already :O |
| 11:56 | <mpilgrim> | anyway, kind of a weird argument to be having |
| 11:57 | <Dashiva> | You know, maybe some of our viewer don't? :) |
| 11:57 | <Dashiva> | *viewers |
| 11:57 | <mpilgrim> | but i suppose it's not nearly as weird as arguing over the normative reference to ASCII |
| 11:58 | <mpilgrim> | or any of the myriad of other trivial things that julian chooses to spend his time arguing about |
| 11:58 | <annevk> | clearly he has a lot of spare time |
| 11:58 | <jgraham> | But imagine the pain if a Serious Standard got the wrong normative reference to ASCII! |
| 11:58 | <asmodai> | Can we clone Hixie? |
| 11:59 | <Dashiva> | We could breed him |
| 11:59 | <jgraham> | Are you suggesting using Hixie like a stallion? |
| 11:59 | <Dashiva> | mpilgrim: I was quite surprised to see him arguing in favor of non-text non-ascii RFCs |
| 12:00 | <mpilgrim> | oh, that rfc format discussion? yeah, it's scary to think that, in some circles, julian is the voice of reason |
| 12:00 | <mpilgrim> | i see why he feels so frustrated in the HTMLWG |
| 12:00 | <asmodai> | jgraham: I'm sure he'd like being a studmuffin. |
| 12:01 | <mpilgrim> | UNICODE IS A CONSPIRACY TO BREAK OUR TOOLS AND STEAL OUR WOMEN |
| 12:01 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Doesn't seem that surprising given that he's written a tool to generate HTML versions of RFCs |
| 12:02 | <mpilgrim> | AND MEN, AND NON-GENDER-SPECIFIC DOMESTIC PARTNERS |
| 12:02 | <asmodai> | annevk: oh btw, the opera mini 5 beta (latest on the android market place) doesn't seem to grok any MathML. So I doubt the released version has rudimentary support as you said yesterday |
| 12:02 | <asmodai> | annevk: I'll be glad to be proven wrong though :D |
| 12:03 | <Philip`> | I think they should have stuck with hand-written faxed RFCs |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | asmodai, we implement it via some CSS rules; I guess those are not included on the mini server |
| 12:03 | <jgraham> | Do they still accept RFCs in that format? |
| 12:03 | <Philip`> | That's the only technology that is sure to last for centuries, long after all our ASCII text tools have died out |
| 12:04 | <Dashiva> | What if English dies out? |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | asmodai, did you try Opera 10.50? |
| 12:04 | <asmodai> | annevk: moment |
| 12:04 | asmodai | fires up 10.50 |
| 12:05 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Archeological linguists can rediscover it and then translate the RFCs |
| 12:05 | <asmodai> | I get something like: S p = C p cos ⁡ i 1 - d + d + W ⁡ i cos⁡ s n |
| 12:05 | <mpilgrim> | just like anything else, the only reason the IETF will ever change is if someone stands up to them |
| 12:05 | <mpilgrim> | someone who has something they want |
| 12:05 | <asmodai> | Which is the raw data in between the matml tags |
| 12:05 | <mpilgrim> | like some emerging standard |
| 12:05 | <asmodai> | annevk: So doesn't look like it does. |
| 12:05 | <mpilgrim> | and says "no, fuck you and your 30-year-old formatting rules" |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | asmodai, got a link? |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | asmodai, chaals is interested |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | :) |
| 12:06 | <asmodai> | annevk: sure |
| 12:06 | <asmodai> | annevk: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/3d.html |
| 12:06 | <mpilgrim> | tim bray complained about this many times, because the IETF's ASCII-only formatting rules mandated misspelling the name of one of the atompub editors |
| 12:06 | <mpilgrim> | and that can't be the first time that's happened |
| 12:07 | <virtuelv> | mpilgrim: whose name? |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | asmodai, ah yeah, we don't do the entities, but the rest doesn't look that great either :/ |
| 12:07 | <asmodai> | annevk: for all I know that should be html 5 compliant. hsivonen's validator only complains about the mathml elements, but that's because he's still working on adding that. |
| 12:08 | <mpilgrim> | Bill de hÓra |
| 12:08 | <virtuelv> | ah |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | asmodai, aah, we only enable it for XML |
| 12:08 | <asmodai> | annevk: Ach zo |
| 12:08 | <asmodai> | annevk: Would that include the XHTML + MathML profile? |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | asmodai, hopefully |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | as you can tell I have not done a whole lot with this myself :) |
| 12:09 | <virtuelv> | actually, also asbjørn ulsberg's name is misspelled in rfc 4287 |
| 12:09 | <virtuelv> | as in the transliteration of his name is wrong |
| 12:10 | <virtuelv> | (the proper substitute for ø (ø) is oe |
| 12:10 | <virtuelv> | ) |
| 12:10 | <Dashiva> | But that's his own fault, apparently |
| 12:12 | <asmodai> | annevk: yeah, looks like XHTML + MathML gets a better treatment |
| 12:12 | <asmodai> | annevk: checked out my pre-conversion XHTML version: http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/3d.xhtml |
| 12:13 | asmodai | needs to double check these old formulae for consistency. |
| 12:14 | <asmodai> | annevk: How well versed is chaals in MathML btw? |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | not sure |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | mpilgrim, btw, why the positive stance for H264? (it seems somewhat contradictory with the thing on Firefox icon licensing, though I realize it is not at all the same) |
| 12:25 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: it seems mathml entities don't work in o10.50 for some reason. it works in internal builds |
| 12:28 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: a workaround is to use straight characters or NCRs and remove the doctype (which will give better perf in gecko and opera) |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | Although I guess that may be impractical if your editor doens't support it |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | (it should, really) |
| 12:29 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: In my case I switched to firemath for creating the first versions of my formulae. |
| 12:30 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: also, that xhtml file is now reworked to html 5. It hardly has any doctype ;) |
| 12:30 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: yeah, i meant for the xhtml case |
| 12:37 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: I dropped xhtml in favour of html 5. The latter seems to be much wider implemented, even now. :) |
| 12:40 | <asmodai> | Someone posted http://underdark.nl/dump/ie9-debunk/ in response to the results @ http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/ |
| 12:41 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: mathml in xhtml is implemented in 2 shipping browsers, mathml in html is implemented in 0 shipping browsers, and 1 non-shipping |
| 12:42 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: mathml in html 5 works pretty well in FF 3.6 (when you enable html5 in the config). |
| 12:42 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: i count that as non-shipping, but fair enough, 1 shipping browser if you flip a pref |
| 12:43 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: And since it's not public yet, I can limit the exposure. But point taken. But the xhtml route is also wrought with the typical xhtml problems/considered dangerous. |
| 12:43 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: So I guess, by the time it's really in shape to be shown publically html 5 ought to be a bit more in position. |
| 12:43 | <asmodai> | I am still wondering how to do a decent fallback though. |
| 12:46 | <zcorpan> | i guess you could detect lack of support and implement a renderer in javascript or something |
| 12:47 | <zcorpan> | or parse the html using the js port of the v.nu html parser |
| 12:49 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: Yeah, will think about it some more. |
| 12:49 | <asmodai> | I can so many areas in which MathML could help the research institutes here at uni. |
| 12:50 | asmodai | wonders if he can bribe Opera devs with Dutch cheese to get html 5 mathml working |
| 12:51 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: try it |
| 12:51 | zcorpan | likes Dutch cheese |
| 12:51 | <asmodai> | I'll even throw in some french as needed :) |
| 12:52 | <asmodai> | zcorpan: I wonder how easily mathml in html 5 could be made to work with userjs. I remember this whitewolf or what's his name guy who wrote a mathml userjs back in the day |
| 12:57 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: it would be easy, but you wouldn't want to apply it for all pages since it'd kill perf |
| 12:58 | <zcorpan> | asmodai: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080814#l-242 |
| 13:00 | <annevk> | http://underdark.nl/dump/ie9-debunk/ is incorrect on some things though |
| 13:00 | <annevk> | e.g. border and backgrounds is in CR, which means vendors are encouraged to support properties without prefix |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | but they don't have to |
| 13:01 | <Philip`> | The presentation of the test results seems intentionally misleading |
| 13:01 | <Philip`> | since it makes it look like IE supports all the standards perfectly |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | oh yeah, no doubt about that |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | extremely poor form |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | only publishing the tests they pass |
| 13:03 | <Philip`> | It's good to have tests and to know what browsers have bugs, but it's silly to compare colour-coded percentages when it's a tiny subset of tests |
| 13:03 | <zcorpan> | maybe they didn't make any more tests, but made the impl pass all their tests |
| 13:04 | <Philip`> | Compare http://codedread.com/svg-support.php |
| 13:04 | <Philip`> | where IE gets far less than anything else, on a much wider range of tests |
| 13:06 | <hsivonen> | more XMl fun: http://live.visitmix.com/MIX10/Sessions/KEY01 unescaped ampersand |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | that one loads fine in Opera |
| 13:07 | <zcorpan> | so opera and batik 1.7 have "A+" |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | oh, it's text/html |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | do you get an A+ for supporting the SVG 1.2 Tiny features that are Bad for the Web? |
| 13:09 | <hsivonen> | (XML Events and textArea) |
| 13:09 | <zcorpan> | dunno |
| 13:09 | <zcorpan> | i think we might have broken xml events while fixing the 'load' event recently |
| 13:10 | <zcorpan> | we should probably just remove xml events |
| 13:10 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: how did you fix the load event? |
| 13:10 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: we fired a bubbling event on document before |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: now we do per spec |
| 13:11 | <hsivonen> | I haven't implemeted teh SVG load event at all in text/html, because the SVG WG still hasn't responded to my feedback |
| 13:11 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: sync or async? |
| 13:11 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: how to test? |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: trying to think of a reliable way... |
| 13:13 | <jcranmer> | that graph is bleh |
| 13:13 | <jcranmer> | it looks like you could get at best ~70% for not supporting animation |
| 13:14 | <hsivonen> | unreliable would be <script>var loadRan =false;</script><svg onload="loadRan=true'></svg><script>alert(loadRan)</script> |
| 13:14 | <zcorpan> | the svg testsuite should probably have an order or magnitude more tests anyway to have the coverage we aim for for html5 |
| 13:18 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i get 'false' for that in xhtml |
| 13:18 | <Philip`> | "The following picture indicates the results of running all 280 tests in many popular SVG implementations in the wild." |
| 13:18 | <Philip`> | How much does each test test? |
| 13:18 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: but i don't know if we fire load on svg sync or async |
| 13:18 | Philip` | has half an order of magnitude more tests for canvas than that, though a lot of them are testing very similar or very boring things |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | the interesting number is not how many tests are in a testsuite, but how many bugs are found |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | But that's a hard number to measure, and it's generally correlated to the number of tests and the extensiveness of each test, which are easier to measure and compare |
| 13:22 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: false means it can't be sync, right? (assuming the onload attribute works) |
| 13:27 | <asmodai> | http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/npr_and_wsj_building_ipad-only_websites.php |
| 13:27 | <asmodai> | The Wall Street Journal, a News Corp. property, is also building an iPad-only version of their site - well, actually just an iPad-only front page. Unlike NPR's iPad site, which will be 100% Flash-free, WSJ visitors who follow links deeper into the website will soon discover that not all its page have been converted. |
| 13:32 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yeah, svg load seems to be async |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i was talking about the normal window.onload though |
| 13:39 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: ok. I hope the WG agrees with async. I don't want to make it sync. |
| 13:40 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: maybe send an email to ed |
| 13:42 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I've already sent email to the WG and ed has seen the email |
| 13:43 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: you awake? |
| 13:44 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ok |
| 13:45 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: have you pointed out that opera fires async? |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: nope |
| 13:51 | <annevk> | can't we kill the silly svg load events? |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | (assuming that is what you're talking about) |
| 13:54 | <zcorpan> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/dom-viewer/x.html?%3Chtml%20xmlns%3D'http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml'%3E%3Cscript%3EloadRan%3Dfalse%3C%2Fscript%3E%3Csvg%20xmlns%3D'http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2000%2Fsvg'%20onload%3D'loadRan%3Dtrue'%2F%3E%3Cscript%3Ealert(loadRan%3F'sync'%3A'async')%3C%2Fscript%3E%3C%2Fhtml%3E |
| 13:54 | <zcorpan> | seems sync in gecko and chrome |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | ok, I dumped the abstract style sheet concept from CSSOM |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | style sheets are CSS |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | as they said in one episode of Better off Ted, deal with it |
| 14:59 | <hsivonen> | ah. UA sniffing. a site has one code branch for "Firefox" and another for everything else |
| 14:59 | <hsivonen> | and the Firefox branch doesn't work in Gecko+HTML5 parser but the everything else branch works |
| 15:05 | <Dashiva> | The web UI for the laundromat here has branches for IE and Netscape |
| 15:05 | <Dashiva> | That is, it assumes everything that doesn't have appName Netscape is IE... |
| 15:10 | <zcorpan> | isn't that true these days? |
| 15:10 | <zcorpan> | or is opera still opera? |
| 15:10 | <zcorpan> | oh it is |
| 15:11 | zcorpan | thought it was changed |
| 15:21 | jgraham | is particularly annoyed by people who do if (window.attachEvent) {/*IE + Opera*/} else {/*Everyone else*/} |
| 15:22 | <annevk> | you could also be annoyed at Opera for implementing support for attachEvent |
| 15:23 | <lazni> | http://intertwingly.net/blog/2010/03/17/Non-Draconian-XHTML |
| 15:25 | <zcorpan> | the xml spec doesn't really require showing an error message |
| 15:25 | <Philip`> | You need to show an error message for debuggability |
| 15:25 | <Philip`> | because otherwise I guess nobody will even realise there's a problem |
| 15:25 | <annevk> | yeah, I guess you need some text after the error to see what happens |
| 15:26 | <Philip`> | If I look at the MIX site in IE with a faked UA string, then it just stops midway through a news summary with no indication why |
| 15:26 | <Philip`> | *IE9 |
| 15:26 | <zcorpan> | i think experimental features should be user-opt-in (like webgl and html5 parser in firefox) instead of being ugly syntax |
| 15:27 | <Philip`> | WebGL is opt-in because it's insecure, not because it's experimental |
| 15:27 | <Philip`> | (It has a prefix on the context name because it's experimental) |
| 15:29 | <zcorpan> | still, making experimental features being user-opt-in solves the problem of people depending on it |
| 15:33 | <Dashiva> | Any sufficiently non-stable release branch does the same, though |
| 15:34 | <zcorpan> | yes, not shipping experimental features also works |
| 15:34 | Philip` | remembers problems where Facebook(?) depended on experimental features that had only shipped in Firefox betas, and broke when it changed to follow an updated spec |
| 15:34 | <Philip`> | so I guess Firefox betas are insufficiently non-stable |
| 15:35 | <Dashiva> | How about this: experimental features only work on intranets :) |
| 15:37 | <Philip`> | That'd make testing hard, since many people don't have intranets |
| 15:37 | <jgraham> | Maybe on experimental.example.org subdomains |
| 15:37 | <Philip`> | Better to do something like force the page's background colour to magenta if it uses experimental features |
| 15:37 | <Philip`> | That wouldn't prevent technical testing of the feature, but would discourage its use in production sites |
| 15:38 | <Dashiva> | Oh, oh |
| 15:38 | <jgraham> | It would if the feature was supposed to affect background colour |
| 15:38 | <Dashiva> | Make it play a song |
| 15:38 | <Dashiva> | Something by crash test dummies, maybe |
| 15:39 | <zcorpan> | make the browser crash after a few minutes |
| 15:40 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Those features can change the text colour instead |
| 15:40 | <asmodai> | rofl, on reddit: In honor of St. Patrick's Day, I will drink a beer for every upvote I get! |
| 15:40 | <asmodai> | He now has 1573 upvotes XD |
| 15:41 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: If you want audio, surely it should be a clip of Mr T. saying " I pity the fool who uses experimental features" played at random intervals |
| 15:41 | <Dashiva> | No, it has to be sufficiently bad to be discouraging |
| 15:41 | <Dashiva> | Mr. T. could easily be seen as a feature |
| 15:43 | <Philip`> | I can imagine a web developer may use a desktop computer with no speakers attached |
| 15:44 | <Philip`> | so they wouldn't discover Mr. T's contributions to their site until they'd launched it and received comments from bemused users |
| 15:44 | <jgraham> | Well then that would teach them to be the fool that used experimental features |
| 16:28 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i talked with ed and we concluded that it seems most reasonable to remove SVGLoad from most elements but keep it for <svg>, <image> etc, and to make it async |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | and for <svg> it is delayed like it is delayed for <body>? |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | at some point someone should work out how that interacts |
| 16:32 | <zcorpan> | apparently it is in opera currently, though i don't care if it's async when end tag is parsed or when everything has been parsed |
| 16:39 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: it seems opera doesn't send SVGLoad on elements if there's no <svg> ancestor |
| 16:39 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: another alternative is to kill SVGLoad and make <svg onload> work like <body onload> when it's the root element |
| 16:44 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: killing svg onload would be my preference |
| 16:46 | <hsivonen> | if feasible considering compat |
| 16:49 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i'd prefer killing it as well |
| 16:49 | annevk | thirds |
| 16:52 | <boblet> | hey all, anyone know how Google Rich Snippets is detecting uF? |
| 16:53 | <boblet> | if they have code that supports uF and Microdata, that could be helpful for Tantek and other uF tool maintainers |
| 17:02 | <boblet> | will check logs if anyone can answer that later |
| 17:08 | <AryehGregor> | boblet, what do you mean "how"? Presumably Google wrote some software to do it for them, which they haven't released, no? |
| 17:10 | <boblet> | AryehGregor: how as in a modified version of html5lib, a custom library they wrote, something they’re planning to release, something they’re not planning to release |
| 17:11 | <AryehGregor> | Why do you assume they made any information public about it? |
| 17:11 | <AryehGregor> | Their entire search engine and pretty much everything associated with it is closed-source and quite secret, as far as I've seen. |
| 17:12 | <boblet> | detecting uF and Microdata isn’t exactly secret sauce-level secrets |
| 17:12 | <boblet> | they have the rich snippet testing tool for testing after all |
| 17:13 | <boblet> | of course what they do with the data is, but I’m wondering if anyone here has heard about the detecting part |
| 17:15 | <Philip`> | I've heard nothing about the details of any of their rich snippets processing stuff |
| 17:16 | <Philip`> | so the only information I have comes from testing, or from making it up |
| 17:17 | <Philip`> | e.g. it's not using any kind of proper HTML parser (judging by some testing) |
| 17:17 | <boblet> | Philip`: aah interesting |
| 17:18 | <boblet> | that prolly means nothing to do with html5lib, and something in-house |
| 17:18 | <Philip`> | and in fact it is powered by snakes that use iPhones (I made that up) |
| 17:19 | <boblet> | snakes, eh |
| 17:19 | <boblet> | good to know |
| 17:20 | Philip` | wonders how well cold-blooded animals can use touch-sensitive screens |
| 17:20 | jgraham | imagines Samuel L. Jackson wandering around the Google server room muttering about motherfucking snakes on motherfucking iPhones |
| 17:21 | <jgraham> | Not that Samuel L. Jackson mutters you understand |
| 17:22 | <asmodai> | Given how Google uses Python |
| 17:22 | <asmodai> | ... |
| 17:37 | <boblet> | asmodai: so it’s the *snakes* that are programming in Python! of course!! it all becomes clear :) |
| 17:43 | <asmodai> | boblet: :) |
| 17:43 | <boblet> | asmodai: you truly have deep insight into the workings of things. thank you for enlightening me ;-) |
| 18:21 | <mpilgrim> | annevk: where did you get the impression that i was cheerleading for h.264? |
| 18:27 | <mpilgrim> | i have to talk about it in diveintohtml5.org because it's (unfortunately) required to reach all platforms that people would reasonably care about |
| 18:27 | <mpilgrim> | i think i re-tweeted a mention of IE supporting it because it seemed like big news |
| 18:28 | <mpilgrim> | that doesn't mean i *like* the fact that web video is standardizing on a patent-encumbered format |
| 18:29 | <mpilgrim> | (de facto standardizing, not formally standardizing) |
| 18:29 | <mpilgrim> | then there's the whole "lesser of two evils" thing with naked-H.264-in-a-video-element vs. H.264-played-by-a-Flash-client |
| 18:30 | <erlehmann> | indeed. it suddenly becomes easier to scrape websites for content. |
| 18:30 | <mpilgrim> | seeing as how Flash ships with H.264 plus a bunch of other proprietary stuff (that is not only patent-encumbered but completely vendor-specific and unlicensable under any terms) |
| 18:30 | <erlehmann> | and no flash cookies etc. |
| 18:31 | <mpilgrim> | it seems like a huge win if we can convert all the video sites away from flash |
| 18:31 | <erlehmann> | hehe, wake me up when porn sites begin using <video> |
| 18:31 | <mpilgrim> | or even some of them, some of the time, for some percentage of users |
| 18:33 | <mpilgrim> | during the most recent html5-vs-flash flamewar, i read that many porn sites have mobile editions which offer pure-H.264-in-MP4 downloads for iPhone and other flash-free platforms |
| 18:33 | <mpilgrim> | dunno if that's true, but it certainly seems plausible |
| 18:34 | <mpilgrim> | they're probably doing H.264 encoding anyway to serve up through flash |
| 18:35 | <mpilgrim> | anyway, video has always been a mess, and it's unrealistic to expect the entire world to shift on a dime and suddenly be non-messy just because we defined a bunch of angle brackets |
| 18:39 | <crash\> | there was once a post on the Whatwg mailing list about the acces restriction of <video> for external ressources and that those restriction should had applied to <img>, <object> etc. when the Web was created |
| 18:39 | <crash\> | Has anybody got the link? |
| 18:40 | <AryehGregor> | Once? |
| 18:40 | <AryehGregor> | Pretty sure it's come up several times. |
| 18:42 | <TabAtkins> | I know I supported that assertion. Let me look... |
| 18:43 | <crash\> | it was more written like an article :) |
| 18:45 | <TabAtkins> | Darn, my gmail-fu is weak. |
| 18:46 | <crash\> | http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/2008-November/001958.html that one :) |
| 19:40 | <hsivonen> | I tought svg load was only on the svg element |
| 19:41 | <hsivonen> | thought |
| 22:04 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: you still around? |
| 22:25 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: As of about 20 minutes ago he was out |
| 22:25 | <jgraham> | Erm |
| 22:26 | <jgraham> | Semantics fail |
| 22:26 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 22:26 | <jgraham> | I mean "20 minutes ago, when my information was last known to be correct, he was out" |
| 22:29 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: understood, thanks |
| 22:30 | <jgraham> | mpilgrim: Arguably, for a new entrant to the browser market, H.264 is worse than Flash because the barrier to entry of millions of dollars a year for licenses is a greater impediment than the need to implement the Netscape plugin API and let adobe worry about licenses |
| 22:31 | <jgraham> | (for end users it is better as long as they don't mind browsers requiring large companies backing them and don't care about open source or small players) |
| 22:39 | <Dashiva> | jgraham: Decoder distribution licenses, you mean? |
| 22:41 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 22:42 | <Dashiva> | That's pretty much an OS feature by now, though |
| 22:42 | <jgraham> | If you don't care about small players or new entrants |
| 22:43 | <jgraham> | And if the media backend on the OS has the APIs you need for the particular requirments of web video |
| 22:43 | <Dashiva> | That seems to be the case for all major OSes at the moment |
| 22:44 | <jgraham> | My understanding is that it is non-trivial to get good support in some cases |
| 22:45 | <jgraham> | using the native APIs |
| 22:45 | <jgraham> | (especially if you are not the OS vendor and can't change / fix the APIs / codecs as needed) |
| 22:46 | <jgraham> | (and for Linux it is only the case that you can play H.264 if you ignore the laws that prevent you doing so) |
| 22:47 | <jgraham> | + other OSes that don't license the codecs correctly |
| 22:48 | <Dashiva> | This is all very vague and ominous |
| 22:56 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: Not really |
| 22:58 | <jgraham> | I guess "it's possible to just use the platform-supplied codecs and push the licensing concerns onto someone else" is a valid counter argument |
| 22:59 | <jgraham> | But there are real disadvantages |
| 23:02 | <Dashiva> | jgraham: sounds similar to "It's possible to just use the flash-supplied codecs and push the licensing concerns onto someone else" |
| 23:04 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: You probably have to implement NPAPI anyway and it is probably mostly shared between platforms whilst video would need N implementations to ship on N platforms |
| 23:04 | <Dashiva> | Oh, sure, it's more work. But it's just another feature to support, there's nothing inherently harder about it. |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | i love feedback that just says "Section 1.2.3, step 4 should be changed to do X because Y" where X and Y assume you know what section 1.2.3 step 4 is. |
| 23:31 | Dashiva | tries to parse |
| 23:31 | <Dashiva> | Oh |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | given that there are over a dozen specs each with different section numbers, several of which are the same text, and all of which change regularly, and given that i only look at feedback with a latency of a few months... |
| 23:32 | <AryehGregor> | Dashiva, Windows doesn't have H.264 codecs installed by default before Windows 7, as far as I've heard. |
| 23:34 | <AryehGregor> | And it's true that Linux only does on the theory of "downloading my distribution copy of ffmpeg-nonfree isn't pirating, honest". |
| 23:38 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, who has any idea what might be the issue here? http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Special:Code/MediaWiki/63842 |
| 23:38 | <AryehGregor> | I'm not sure what would cause Mac and Windows Firefox to treat px differently. Different DPI settings or something? |
| 23:41 | <Dashiva> | Maybe they use different baselines to offset from |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: would be good to have some webkit feedback on http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-March/025403.html |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | annevk: opera feedback too ^ |
| 23:53 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: it looks to me like that message is itself WebKit feedback |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | true |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | annevk! opera's feedback would be most welcome :-) |
| 23:58 | <roc> | AryehGregor: we've heard that Microsoft is going to ship an H.264 codec in Vista SP2 |
| 23:59 | <roc> | a lot of XP users will upgrade to Windows 7 relatively soon, but there will probably be a very long tail of XP users too |
