| 00:04 | <Hixie> | 50% done on mail |
| 00:13 | <Wolfman2000> | hmm...I'm doing something wrong. I thought XHTML worked fine with HTML5. I'm being given the "This XML file doesn't appear to have style" warning. What am I missing here again? |
| 00:13 | <gsnedders> | Wolfman2000: XHTML namespace? |
| 00:14 | <Wolfman2000> | gsnedders: ...that's supposed to go in html, right? |
| 00:14 | <gsnedders> | (i.e., xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; on the root element) |
| 00:14 | <gsnedders> | Wolfman2000: yes |
| 00:14 | <Wolfman2000> | HTML5 won't complain if xmlns is left even in text mode, right? |
| 00:14 | <gsnedders> | Yes |
| 00:15 | <Wolfman2000> | While it's on my mind...this particular document will be using svg. Do I define the xmlns:svg (or the reverse) in <html> as well, or just <svg>? |
| 00:16 | <gsnedders> | just do <svg xmlns="[whatever the SVG namespace is]"> |
| 00:16 | <Wolfman2000> | along with the xlink stuff...right |
| 07:28 | <zcorpan> | hmm, <nav> doesn't seem like a good fit for a <video>'s scripted controls - http://www.multimediapedia.com/2010/03/building-html5-video-player-tutorial.html slide 16 |
| 07:29 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan: agree |
| 07:39 | <jwalden> | o_O |
| 08:02 | <annevk> | in a timeframe of less than two hours Shelley manages to email public-html seven times on the same subject... |
| 08:03 | <abarth> | annevk: must be an important issue |
| 08:04 | <annevk> | right |
| 08:33 | <hsivonen> | This looks useful: http://www.ankoder.com/ |
| 08:38 | virtuelv | is looking for a thunderbird bug about UTF-8 being an offensive encoding in some locations |
| 08:38 | <virtuelv> | (japan, namely) |
| 08:45 | <virtuelv> | ah |
| 08:45 | <virtuelv> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=448842#c14 |
| 08:48 | <othermaciej> | annevk: was that the figure thread? |
| 08:48 | <othermaciej> | annevk: I am impressed that even after being shown her rationale for something was completely false, she didn't seem to even consider changing her mind |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | virtuelv: so sad that the email client installed base in Japan still doesn't fully support UTF-8 |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | (according to comments on the bug) |
| 08:56 | <virtuelv> | it might be sad, but it at least shows that one shouldn't make assumptions about the world as a whole by looking at a portion of it |
| 08:57 | <zcorpan> | http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2010/03/22/ - i wonder what the graph looks like for opera |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | IE9 platform preview and Minefield with D2D would be interesting, too. |
| 09:02 | <virtuelv> | zcorpan: he offers the tests for download |
| 09:02 | <zcorpan> | it seems flash is a bit faster than canvas in opera, but not a lot faster (tried 1000, 2000 and 3000 particles) |
| 09:03 | <zcorpan> | html and svg are slow when there are many particles |
| 09:04 | <virtuelv> | btw, http://www.codedread.com/blog/archives/2010/03/22/know-the-beast/#more-757 |
| 09:05 | <zcorpan> | virtuelv: i think that shouldn't make any difference, at least in opera |
| 09:07 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: a comment says svg in ie9 is 45fps |
| 09:08 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: compared to 3-4fps in firefox 3.6 |
| 09:09 | <annevk> | Opera is pretty slow :/ |
| 09:09 | <annevk> | othermaciej, yeah, sad |
| 09:10 | <zcorpan> | annevk: canvas seems comparable to flash for me |
| 09:12 | <annevk> | yeah, just meant the SVG results compared with Chrome |
| 09:13 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 09:13 | <zcorpan> | file a bug :) |
| 09:15 | <annevk> | pretty sure ed will do that |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | is http://twitter.com/tj/status/10850669048 for real? |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | that is somewhat hilarious |
| 09:25 | <othermaciej> | if by "Republicans" he means "Republican members of Congress" then yeah, they have their own government-administered health plan |
| 09:25 | <othermaciej> | which is considerably beyond what normal people would get |
| 09:26 | <othermaciej> | on the other hand, the HCR legislation specifically exempts members of Congress, so Democrats in Congress have all opted out of the particular health care plan they passed |
| 09:28 | <annevk> | weird |
| 09:29 | <othermaciej> | actually, on closer review that's not true, but certain congressional staffers (mainly the ones who are staff for the leadership) will be exempted |
| 09:29 | <othermaciej> | that's even more weird |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | the latest extensibility proposal is somewhat interesting |
| 09:33 | <smaug> | hmm, what to do with websocket protocol... |
| 09:33 | <smaug> | the latest one is just ugly |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | the change proposal doesn't work |
| 09:33 | <Hixie> | smaug: if anyone has any proposals that satisfy the security constraints as well, i'm all ears |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | but the overall idea is somewhat sound I suppose, though you still get namespace clutter :/ |
| 09:34 | <smaug> | Hixie: yeah, I'm hoping that someone, especially someone with lots of experience in protocols, could come up with something better |
| 09:34 | <smaug> | "hoping" |
| 09:35 | <Hixie> | unfortunately most of the people with lots of experience with protocols have lots of experience with protocols that are to be implemented by experts :-( |
| 09:36 | <smaug> | that is true |
| 09:48 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: good point about the image stuff |
| 09:48 | <Hixie> | i'll make that change at some point |
| 09:49 | <Hixie> | i must go to bed now though |
| 09:49 | <othermaciej> | sure |
| 09:49 | <othermaciej> | I should to actually |
| 09:49 | <othermaciej> | g'night |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | http://labs.toolness.com/ff-herdict-preso/ would benefit from preloading the next few images |
| 10:00 | <zcorpan> | i wonder if ie9 behaves the same as ie8 for things in http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript |
| 10:09 | zcorpan | updates web ecmascript wrt --> and carakan |
| 10:41 | MikeSmith | is having trouble trying to machine-translate that interview with jl |
| 10:41 | <MikeSmith> | Google Translate says, "Sorry, we are unable to access the page you requested" |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | which interview? |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | nm |
| 10:44 | <annevk> | wfm MikeSmith |
| 10:44 | <annevk> | http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.computerra.ru%2Fterralab%2Fsofterra%2F516485%2F&sl=auto&tl=en |
| 10:45 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: thanks |
| 10:45 | <MikeSmith> | that works for me too |
| 10:45 | <MikeSmith> | dunno what I was doing wrong |
| 10:46 | <annevk> | not a whole lot of new info |
| 10:46 | <MikeSmith> | " The team consisted of three to five developers who worked on the project all the time, and about the same number of engineers." |
| 10:47 | <MikeSmith> | developers=programmers and engineers=QA engineers ? |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: I saw announcement that the xml-stylesheet spec has been updated and looked at the diff |
| 10:49 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: I guess |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 10:49 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: it seems like there's nothing that's changed as far as the syntax, right? |
| 10:50 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: (although the numbers seem a little off for QA, but it depends on how you count) |
| 10:50 | <MikeSmith> | I see |
| 10:51 | <MikeSmith> | btw, it would of course be great to have it working on ARM along with x86 |
| 10:51 | <MikeSmith> | but I assume that's already in the works |
| 11:03 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: only minor fixes |
| 11:04 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 11:04 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: if you had implemented the previous draft to the letter, then you'd have to implement the removing of quotes in PseudoAttValue |
| 11:05 | <MikeSmith> | I'll have to go back and check |
| 11:06 | <zcorpan> | i'm pretty sure you implemented it as it says in the new draft |
| 11:08 | <zcorpan> | the new draft is http://www.w3.org/XML/2010/03/xml-stylesheet/ for anyone interested |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | sigh, the WebSocket API / protocol split causes us issues too |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | might be because Ian has not made it explicit what is defined where, but still |
| 12:13 | annevk | wonders how http://www.opera.com/press/releases/2010/03/23_3/ will go down |
| 12:18 | <Dashiva> | With a bang or a whimper |
| 12:34 | <Philip`> | Do people do these "submitted to App Store" press releases (instead of just "now available on App Store") mainly as a way to pressure Apple into accepting their app, under the assumption that Apple doesn't want to disappoint users by rejecting it for breaking some rules? |
| 12:35 | <Dashiva> | More like prevent apple for stealth-rejecting it without good reason |
| 12:35 | <Dashiva> | *from |
| 13:05 | <hsivonen> | in there any public info on how Opera Mini for iPhone was developed? Does it use the same code as the usual Mini but with GCJ? |
| 13:06 | hsivonen | wonders if Opera is already busy porting Mini to Windows Phone 7 |
| 13:11 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I'm pretty certain there is no public info. |
| 13:34 | <Philip`> | People seem to put a lot of significance on the priority values of their bugs |
| 13:34 | <Philip`> | Aren't they kind of meaningless? |
| 13:40 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: ok. |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | Philip`, in the end all bugs need to be resolved... |
| 14:00 | <Philip`> | Priorities should be unbounded integers so that you never have to upset people by decreasing the priority of their bugs, you just increase the priority of all other bugs |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | people should whine less and do more maybe |
| 14:04 | <Philip`> | That too |
| 14:06 | <Dashiva> | Maybe we could just adjust the scale |
| 14:06 | <Dashiva> | So P1, P2, P3 becomes P1, P1.5, P2 |
| 14:07 | <asmodai> | Heard about the EDPS suggestion for webbrowser builders? |
| 14:08 | <Dashiva> | No, what is it? |
| 14:08 | <asmodai> | EDPS is the European privacy watchdog |
| 14:08 | <asmodai> | they want that browser vendors by default refuse cookies from advertising networks |
| 14:08 | <asmodai> | http://www.edps.europa.eu/EDPSWEB/webdav/site/mySite/shared/Documents/Consultation/Opinions/2010/10-03-19_Trust_Information_Society_EN.pdf |
| 14:09 | <asmodai> | See page 17 onward |
| 14:09 | <MikeSmith> | "Validation can then be used as a quick check to determine whether the code is the clean work of a seasoned HTML author, or quickly hacked-together tag soup." |
| 14:10 | <asmodai> | The steps that users must take to opt-out seem not only complicated but also excessive (first he must set his browser to accept cookies, then exercise the opt-out option). |
| 14:11 | <asmodai> | Therefore, while legally speaking, Article 5(3) of the ePrivacy Directive provides for effective legal protection, in practice, Internet users are deemed to consent to be monitored for the purposes of sending behavioural advertisement when in fact, in many, if not most cases, they are fully unaware that the monitoring takes place. |
| 14:11 | <asmodai> | As described above, web browsers commonly allow a level of control over certain kinds of cookies. Currently, the default settings of most web browsers are accepting all cookies. In other words, by default, the browsers are set to accept all cookies, independently of the purpose of the cookie. |
| 14:12 | <asmodai> | [...] Furthermore, there is no privacy wizard on the first install or update of browser applications. |
| 14:12 | <asmodai> | Looks like they're urging on legislation as well. |
| 14:13 | <asmodai> | Which would mean that browsers in the EU would have to refuse 3rd party cookies by default |
| 14:13 | <asmodai> | and implement a privacy wizard |
| 14:13 | <Dashiva> | I wonder if they know about SharedObjects |
| 14:14 | <Dashiva> | "Currently, the default settings of most web browsers are accepting all cookies." |
| 14:15 | <Dashiva> | Is this actually true? I thought most browsers only allowed first-party and redirect cookies by default? |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | My Opera says "Accept cookies" (not "only from the site I visit"), and I don't think I've ever changed it away from the default |
| 14:16 | <asmodai> | My firefox 3.6.2 under privacy has no specific cookie setting option, not unless you select use custom settings for history |
| 14:16 | <asmodai> | and that shows accept third-party |
| 14:16 | <gsnedders> | The default was changed to "Accept cookies only from the site I visit" in 10.50 and reverted in 10.51 |
| 14:17 | <Dashiva> | The only vanilla browser I have to check is Safari, and it says "only sites I visit" |
| 14:18 | <Dashiva> | "There is a need for more granularity and clear information on the types of cookies and the usefulness of some of them." |
| 14:18 | <asmodai> | Fair point. |
| 14:18 | <Dashiva> | The user eduction tools will save us |
| 14:20 | <asmodai> | the LART? |
| 14:21 | <Dashiva> | I don't think many people would answer "Why yes, I do want my browsing habits to be tracked and recorded for other people's profit" |
| 14:22 | <Dashiva> | And I seem to recall from bug reports that some sites break without 3rd party cookies, so that's an incentive to enable it anyhow |
| 14:23 | <MikeSmith> | wow, presence of xmlns as talisman of best-practices opt-in |
| 14:24 | <Dashiva> | <html xmlns="I support best practices"> |
| 14:25 | <MikeSmith> | we time-travels 10 years into the future and gets killed by people there who end up getting stuck with the long-term consequences of that one |
| 14:25 | <asmodai> | Aren't those sites maybe broken by design then? :) |
| 14:25 | <Philip`> | If Opera changed back in 10.51, was that because of bug reports of sites breaking, or was it the result of a successful attempt to extort protection money for ad networks by showing them Opera's power to turn cookies off in 10.50? |
| 14:25 | <MikeSmith> | .me looks around the room for Sam |
| 14:26 | <Philip`> | Overloading syntax for multiple unrelated purposes is always fun |
| 14:26 | <Philip`> | That's why everyone loves doctypes and quirks mode |
| 14:27 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, we have a great precedent there |
| 14:27 | <Dashiva> | Don't forget UA sniffing |
| 14:28 | <MikeSmith> | Dashiva: indeed, another case where things have just worked out swimmingly |
| 14:28 | <MikeSmith> | thank you, geniuses of the past |
| 14:28 | <MikeSmith> | we are truly standing on the shoulders of giants |
| 14:28 | <asmodai> | as long as you're not standing on my left shoulder |
| 14:29 | asmodai | managed to land his full 100 kg on it earlier today playing squash >_< |
| 14:29 | <Dashiva> | I think you're going to overload the sarcasm meters |
| 14:31 | <Philip`> | The problem with being a giant is that it's much more painful when you fall over, so your mistakes will have serious consequences long into the future |
| 14:31 | <MikeSmith> | slagiatt |
| 14:31 | <asmodai> | Philip`: yeah, I blame my 1,94m :( |
| 14:31 | Philip` | wonders how tall a human would have to be before tripping over would be fatal |
| 14:31 | <Dashiva> | To the mathmobile! |
| 14:32 | <Philip`> | I guess the trick is to make sure you only stand on the shoulders of extremely careful giants |
| 14:32 | <Dashiva> | Or extremely soft giants |
| 14:32 | <asmodai> | Although, according to another colleague of mine, the save was spectacular to watch, as I fell, slid over the floor and then at the end, after bruising the shoulder, burning knee and hand, managed to bump my head in the corner of 2 walls. |
| 14:32 | <MikeSmith> | Eloi, Eloi, slagiatt |
| 14:36 | <asmodai> | MikeSmith: Why does that ring a bell. It's said as elo-i, right? |
| 14:38 | <Dashiva> | Seemed Like A Good Idea At The Time |
| 14:38 | <Dashiva> | = |
| 14:38 | <MikeSmith> | asmodai: dunno, it's something I heard in a bar or strip club or something |
| 14:38 | <Dashiva> | ? |
| 14:38 | <MikeSmith> | I have no idea what it means |
| 14:39 | <asmodai> | Eloi is something I remember, I think, from hebrew being used in the bible. |
| 14:40 | <asmodai> | Unless I am misremembering, which is always possible. |
| 14:41 | Philip` | doesn't know much about bibles but they were in The Time Machine |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | didn't hsivonen post conformance criteria a long time ago on rubys blog? |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | annevk: possibly. though I'm not sure Hixie has written the spec according to criteria I've expressed on Sam's blog at one time or another |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | asmodai: eloi means father, and is part of what Jesus cried out before death upon the cross |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | ("Father, father, why have you forsaken me?" is the normal English translation, which in Hebrew begins with "Eloi, Eloi..." |
| 14:52 | <asmodai> | gsnedders: Ahh, see, remembered something from my christian upbringing. |
| 14:53 | <asmodai> | Not that helps much being buddhist. *grin* |
| 14:53 | <hsivonen> | annevk: did you mean http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/08/Dont-Break-The-Web#c1178698369 ? |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | hixie cited that once |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | and also added some other things I believe |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | it's all in an email on public-html somewhere |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | seems to come up whenever someone decides it's worth whining about again |
| 14:54 | <hsivonen> | annevk: the w3c list search doesn't find http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/08/Dont-Break-The-Web on public-html |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | maybe it was separate |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | grmbl I cannot find it |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | the archives are vast and complex to search through |
| 15:14 | <asmodai> | Does it require sacrifices? |
| 15:15 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: sites breaking |
| 15:32 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: Oh |
| 16:07 | <AryehGregor> | asmodai, "Eloi" isn't Hebrew for "father", or Aramaic. Maybe it's Greek? |
| 16:08 | <AryehGregor> | Greek likes ending words in "oi". |
| 16:08 | <AryehGregor> | Although usually as a masculine plural, I thought. |
| 16:10 | <AryehGregor> | "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?" would probably be something like "Avi, avi, lama azavtani?" in Biblical Hebrew. |
| 16:11 | <Philip`> | Maybe Jesus was screaming profanities, but the English translators thought it would be better to pretend he said "Father" instead |
| 16:11 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 16:12 | <AryehGregor> | There are no profanities in Biblical Hebrew, it's all very euphemistic. There aren't even words for things like "urine", as far as I know. Presumably such words existed, but nobody saw fit to write them down in holy texts. |
| 16:38 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: And the New Testement was mainly written in Greek, no? |
| 16:39 | <AryehGregor> | Well, I'm hardly an expert on the New Testament, but that's my impression, yes. |
| 16:45 | <gsnedders> | Wikipedia agrees |
| 16:47 | <AryehGregor> | Wait, so now Google is serving Chinese people out of Hong Kong? That's controlled by the PRC since 1997, I thought? Is it not inside the Great Firewall? |
| 16:47 | <gsnedders> | "E'li, E'li, la'ma sa-bach-tha'ni?" is what Wikipedia gives for what Matthew and Mark give as the final, Aramaic, words |
| 16:47 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Dunno, yes, yes |
| 16:48 | <AryehGregor> | "Eli" means "my God", not "my Father". Don't recognize "sabachtani", not sure if it's cognate to a Hebrew word I recognize. |
| 16:48 | <gsnedders> | "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" |
| 16:49 | <AryehGregor> | What article? |
| 16:49 | <gsnedders> | But apparently He is quoted in Matthew and Mark in Aramaic, which fits with my memory of the quotation being Aramaic and of the text as a whole being Greek |
| 16:50 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayings_of_Jesus_on_the_cross |
| 16:50 | <AryehGregor> | Ah, good, it has the Hebrew/Aramaic lettering. |
| 16:51 | AryehGregor | notes that "ēlî ēlî lamâ azavtanî" is identical to what he predicted, except for "eli" "my God" instead of "avi" "my Father" |
| 16:51 | <AryehGregor> | שבק is an Aramaic root I don't recognize. |
| 16:51 | <gsnedders> | Gah, in Jesus's case, what difference does it make? :) |
| 16:52 | <AryehGregor> | What difference does it make in anyone's case? Doesn't Moses say in Deuteronomy, "You are all sons to the Lord your God"? |
| 16:52 | <AryehGregor> | Christian and Jewish prayers call God "Father" all over the place. |
| 16:52 | <Philip`> | "omg! omg! why have you forsaken me?" |
| 16:52 | gsnedders | isn't sure that's Deuteronomy, though |
| 16:52 | AryehGregor | is pretty sure it's Deuteronomy. |
| 16:52 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Also: there was sarcasm in that last comment. |
| 16:53 | <AryehGregor> | 14:1ץ |
| 16:53 | <AryehGregor> | Eרץ |
| 16:53 | <AryehGregor> | Er. |
| 16:53 | <AryehGregor> | 14:1. |
| 16:53 | AryehGregor | doesn't see the sarcasm |
| 16:54 | <gsnedders> | Oh, my finger slipped, it was meant to be :P at the end |
| 16:54 | <gsnedders> | (But yeah, I was meaning it jokingly from the root of Father being used to refer to Gof all the time) |
| 16:54 | <gsnedders> | *God |
| 17:32 | <asmodai> | AryehGregor: Could very well be |
| 17:49 | Philip` | discovers a program that uses SGML for documentation, which uses the syntax like <em/this/ |
| 17:49 | <Philip`> | I didn't know anybody seriously used that feature |
| 17:51 | <AryehGregor> | asmodai, it seems like it's a Greek bastardization of the Aramaic for "my God", "eli". |
| 17:59 | <hober> | http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/doclicense-20100323/#(7) license proliferation fail |
| 18:08 | <krijnh> | boblet: Np! :) |
| 18:11 | <Philip`> | "Survey results on question "should W3C publish HTML 5 under a license that allows forking?". Of those who responded, approximately 79% answered "no" and 14% answered "yes" (and the rest abstained)." |
| 18:11 | <AryehGregor> | Does it matter? It's all published by the WHATWG too. |
| 18:12 | <Philip`> | I wonder why they want to attempt to prohibit forking, when the W3C version is already a fork itself |
| 18:13 | <Dashiva> | It's only bad when people you don't like do it |
| 18:13 | <AryehGregor> | It's only bad when people other than you do it. |
| 18:14 | <Dashiva> | Fork is a loaded word, after all |
| 18:14 | <Dashiva> | It implies there still being an original |
| 18:15 | <Philip`> | Does it? |
| 18:15 | AryehGregor | just saw this smilie: ಠ_ಠ |
| 18:15 | AryehGregor | <3 Unicode |
| 18:15 | AryehGregor | ♥ Unicode, too |
| 18:15 | <Dashiva> | Otherwise it's just "resuming the work" or "picking up the project" |
| 18:15 | <Philip`> | When there's a fork in a road, I'd expect that to be two equally divergent paths |
| 18:16 | <AryehGregor> | "Fork" implies there's still an original, at the moment of forking. |
| 18:16 | <AryehGregor> | One or the other may subsequently die, of course. |
| 18:16 | <Philip`> | and in a utensil-style fork I wouldn't expect there to be a primary tine |
| 18:16 | <Dashiva> | Stick to spoons, Philip` |
| 18:16 | <Philip`> | so it's odd that in software it has a different connotation |
| 18:17 | <Dashiva> | It's not that odd. They simply focused only on the splitting aspect |
| 18:17 | <Dashiva> | Hum |
| 18:18 | <AryehGregor> | I could look up "fork" in the OED to see whether the name for the utensil or the meaning of bifurcation came first. |
| 18:18 | <Dashiva> | bifurcation doesn't imply a original either, does it? |
| 18:19 | <AryehGregor> | It implies one thing becoming two. |
| 18:19 | <AryehGregor> | Not with either one necessarily different from the other. |
| 18:19 | <Philip`> | "Conclusion: For HTML 5, create a new license that addresses all of the use cases cited by the HTML Working Group except forking." - maybe the best way to address the uses cases would be to not address them, to avoid wasting effort given the WHATWG copy already addresses the use cases in a far simpler and less proliferatively way |
| 18:20 | <Dashiva> | Clearly we need a new word |
| 18:21 | <Dashiva> | Cloning doesn't work, because a fork isn't identical except at the very beginning |
| 18:22 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: It suggests the "pronged instrument" version was used two hundred years before any other use |
| 18:22 | <AryehGregor> | I guessed that from the ordering of the definitions in the AHD. |
| 18:22 | <AryehGregor> | I think that usually orders chronologically. |
| 18:22 | <Philip`> | "c1000 ÆLFRIC Hom. (Th.) I. 430 {Edh}a cwelleras..wi{edh}-ufan mid heora forcum hine {edh}ydon." |
| 18:23 | <Philip`> | Dashiva: Clones aren't identical except at the beginning, either |
| 18:23 | <Philip`> | though they may follow somewhat similar paths of development |
| 18:24 | <MikeSmith> | spawn |
| 18:24 | <hsivonen> | it'll be extremely interesting to see how they are going to disallow forking while permitting the inclusion in open-source code so that the code stays as open source |
| 18:24 | <Philip`> | but e.g. Republic clone troopers didn't all end up as bounty hunters |
| 18:24 | <MikeSmith> | "a soft, jelly-like substance containing the eggs of fish, or of animals such as frogs" |
| 18:24 | <AryehGregor> | hsivonen, why does open-source code need to include a copy of HTML5? |
| 18:25 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: see the list of use cases |
| 18:25 | AryehGregor | has given up on the W3C anyway, honestly |
| 18:27 | <Dashiva> | Philip`: That's more like using a different compiler, the source code is still identical ;) |
| 18:27 | <Philip`> | Was http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/0323-html-plh/ meant to have more than just a title page? |
| 18:27 | <Philip`> | Oh |
| 18:27 | <Philip`> | I need to press arrow keys, apparently |
| 18:27 | Philip` | was attempting to just disable stylesheets in order to get a readable version of it |
| 18:33 | <JonathanNeal> | Say I have a collection of 10 blog previews, each with a title and part of the first paragraph of the blog; would all of these pieces belong to a section or an article? |
| 18:33 | <hober> | each piece in <article> |
| 18:35 | <JonathanNeal> | Okay, so now say I have a rotating banner of various slogans pointing to articles, similar to the previews, but now in <img /> form, would you still recommend several <article>s? I feel like the entire group is either an article or a section. |
| 18:36 | <JonathanNeal> | I may be changing our rotating banner @ http://www.liferay.com/ in response to http://html5gallery.com/2010/03/liferay/ since I'm on the fence about whether or not I agree with their assertion. |
| 18:37 | <hober> | see http://edward.oconnor.cx/2009/09/using-the-html5-sectioning-elements#archive-pages for more |
| 18:38 | <hober> | I would still recommend several <article>s, yeah |
| 18:38 | <hober> | <div class="fancy-banner-thingy"><article>...</article><article>...</article>...</div> |
| 18:39 | <hober> | (<article>s with <a rel="bookmark" ...><img ...></a> inside) |
| 18:39 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, in that case, wouldn't they belong to a banner section? |
| 18:40 | <hober> | Only use <section> if it a) has its own heading and b) should affect the document outline |
| 18:40 | <hober> | I don't see a heading that refers to the collection of those blurbs |
| 18:41 | <hober> | <section> doesn't just mean "<div> 2: <div> harder" |
| 18:41 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, in this case, since they are part of the larger page and not on a page of their own, they would have a heading. |
| 18:42 | <hober> | yes, each <article> has an obvious heading. I'm talking about the parent element. |
| 18:42 | <hober> | the parent element doesn't have its own heading, so far as I can see |
| 18:43 | <JonathanNeal> | Yes, I'm refering to the parent element which wraps all of the articles. At Liferay.com, we do have a heading to label the banners. |
| 18:43 | <hober> | I don't see one |
| 18:43 | <JonathanNeal> | View the page without styling. |
| 18:43 | <JonathanNeal> | Our presentational style is to remove the heading. |
| 18:44 | <hober> | OK |
| 18:44 | <JonathanNeal> | As a group of previews of articles or an archive of articles, I think a heading is fitting, especially when there are other areas on the site which are not. |
| 18:44 | <hober> | in that case, yeah, I'd use <section><h1>banners</h1><article>...</article>...</section> |
| 18:44 | <JonathanNeal> | on the site = on the page |
| 18:45 | <asmodai> | mmm, that sputnik site is interesting |
| 18:46 | <JonathanNeal> | hober, I'm compelled to feel that way too, except that http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/sections.html#the-article-element does note <article> content is "intended to be independently distributable or reusable" |
| 18:47 | <JonathanNeal> | Whereas an archive may be such, previews of blog posts or a rotating banner may not. |
| 18:47 | <JonathanNeal> | They are pieces of independantly distributable or reusable content. |
| 18:47 | <asmodai> | In case people didn't know, http://sputnik.googlelabs.com/ |
| 18:52 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: If it's just a snippet, I would *not* do <article>. I don't want to see a snippet by itself, fullscreened or on its own page, so it's not appropriate for <article>. |
| 18:53 | <TabAtkins> | That's my rule-of-thumb. |
| 18:53 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, now what about a collection of snippits? |
| 19:20 | <gsnedders> | Damn food is expensive in Oslo :\ |
| 19:30 | <JonathanNeal> | Any notes before I move this blog over to Liferay? http://sandbox.thewikies.com/liferay-featured-at-html5-gallery.html |
| 19:46 | <JonathanNeal> | Word http://www.liferay.com/web/jonathan.neal/blog/-/blogs/liferay-featured-html5-gallery |
| 19:53 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: How did it take you so long to notice? |
| 19:54 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I haven't bought food before on this trip, and despite having been here before, it still amazes me. |
| 19:57 | <gsnedders> | What's browser support for datalist like? |
| 19:57 | <gsnedders> | Only Presto? |
| 19:57 | <miketaylr> | think so |
| 19:59 | <gsnedders> | And there's an incomplete compile time option for WebKit, as far as I can tell |
| 21:04 | <paul_irish> | are localStorage caches retained during browser version upgrades? |
| 21:04 | <neotyk> | Hi *, I can't find a word in RFC2616 about multiple Content-Type headers, and what client should do with those, is there guideline for it? |
| 21:23 | <JonathanNeal> | Is there a list of all elements like this http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/elements.html but the html5 version? |
| 21:24 | <hober> | JonathanNeal: http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements |
| 21:25 | <JonathanNeal> | Thank you hober. |
| 21:25 | <Philip`> | JonathanNeal: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html#elements-1 |
| 21:26 | <JonathanNeal> | thank you Philip` |
| 21:35 | <jgraham> | paul_irish: That;s up to the UA but I would expect them to be typically |
| 21:36 | <paul_irish> | jgraham: cool. thx |
| 21:41 | <Dashiva> | neotyk: HTTP doesn't say much about abnormal behavior |
| 21:41 | <Dashiva> | neotyk: It's specified for HTML5, though |
| 21:42 | <JonathanNeal> | <command> goes in <head> ? |
| 21:44 | <Dashiva> | They can appear as phrasing content too |
| 21:45 | <Dashiva> | E.g. as children of a <menu> |
| 21:57 | <neotyk> | Dashiva: but I'm asking in context of HTTP 1.1 client |
| 22:04 | <JonathanNeal> | How would they work in the head? |
| 22:11 | <Dashiva> | JonathanNeal: Different types of commands, I suppose? |
| 22:14 | <Dashiva> | JonathanNeal: I think the main type are accesskey-activated ones |
| 22:15 | <JonathanNeal> | I see, for web applications |
| 22:16 | <daedb> | ugh, the public-html figure thread is giving me a headache... |
| 22:16 | zcorpan | notes that <command> was allowed in head before accesskey was allowed |
| 22:17 | <Dashiva> | Maybe for use via script? |
| 22:17 | <zcorpan> | daedb: weird, it's not giving me a headache. hmm maybe it's because i'm not reading it |
| 22:18 | <daedb> | zcorpan: I'm considering reading the DE thread too, but I fear for my sanity if I read both tonight |
| 22:19 | <Dashiva> | It's somewhat amusing that thread subjects are getting shorter, it's a rare event :) |
| 22:23 | <daedb> | hmmm... I'm gonna go watch vampires on tv instead, less scary than public-html |
| 22:32 | <JonathanNeal> | area's parent is listed as phasing |
| 22:32 | <JonathanNeal> | but isn't it map? |
| 22:33 | <JonathanNeal> | I do not believe it will even validate without being the child of a map |
| 22:33 | <zcorpan> | it needs to be a descendant of map, but not necessarily child |
| 22:42 | <JonathanNeal> | http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-pangram/ |
| 22:45 | <JonathanNeal> | http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fsandbox.thewikies.com%2Fhtml5-pangram%2F |
| 22:46 | <JonathanNeal> | <command> swallows. |
| 22:59 | <JonathanNeal> | Keygen disappears entirely. |
| 23:27 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, you never told me what would you wrap a collection of snippits with "If it's just a snippet, I would *not* do <article>. I don't want to see a snippet by itself, fullscreened or on its own page, so it's not appropriate for <article>." |
| 23:28 | <hober> | My mental model is "Use <article> wherever I use class='hentry'" |
| 23:30 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/Duckstadkrant/status/10945262710 want |
| 23:34 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: I did too! ^_^ It was a while later, but I addressed it to you. |
| 23:36 | <JonathanNeal> | Did not :( I just scrolled up |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | LIES. |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | Unless I sent it while Pidgin was offline or something, and it decided not to warn me. |
| 23:39 | <TabAtkins> | I'll look for it. One sec, moving desks. |
| 23:46 | JonathanNeal | imagines TabAtkins is doing things akin to the Adventures of Lolo |