| 00:11 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, fixed. |
| 00:11 | <TabAtkins> | Cool! |
| 00:20 | <JonathanNeal> | Other suggestions? |
| 00:23 | TabAtkins | is minuting again. |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: i wanted to ban <div>, too. |
| 02:51 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: jamesr was looking for you in #webkit. You might want to consider joining #chromium too. |
| 02:52 | <til> | hixie - i just got your email re http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9160 |
| 02:52 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Thanks for the heads up. Joined now. |
| 02:52 | <til> | Hixie: what about a multiple choice survey question (check all that apply) |
| 02:52 | <til> | that's the situation i'm interested in |
| 02:53 | <Hixie> | what if none apply? |
| 02:53 | <Hixie> | seems very dodgy to me to use checkboxes in that way |
| 02:55 | <til> | hixie: i'm a supplier of survey systems for restaurants |
| 02:55 | <til> | there are times when there's a multiple choice non-exclusive question that is required |
| 02:56 | <Hixie> | like what? |
| 02:56 | <til> | i.e. what keeps you coming back? after someone has already said they dine frequently |
| 02:56 | <Hixie> | that's exactly the kind of question where i'd hate for hte browser to force me to pick at least one |
| 02:56 | <til> | if the client insists that a question be required, i have to make it required |
| 02:56 | <til> | i can tell them why it's not worth requiring |
| 02:56 | <til> | but they pay for me |
| 02:57 | <Hixie> | so much so that for similar questions in the past i've gone in with a DOM inspector and killed the JS that forces me to do it, and submitted it that way |
| 02:57 | <til> | i can force you to select one if it's mutually-exclusive |
| 02:57 | <til> | i should be able to do the same for multiple-select |
| 02:57 | <til> | Hixie: this isn't about form UI - it's about the API |
| 02:58 | <til> | i'm not saying that i like required survey questions |
| 02:58 | <Hixie> | the API is about form UI |
| 02:58 | <Hixie> | i don't think we should support this kind of UI |
| 02:58 | <til> | but there's a situation where you can require an input and it needs to be defined |
| 02:58 | <til> | e.g. what is a required checkbox |
| 02:58 | <Hixie> | right now it is defined as "the checkbox has to be checked" |
| 02:58 | <til> | i don't understand how my proposal endangers yours |
| 02:58 | <Hixie> | it doesn't |
| 02:58 | <til> | why would there be an input group if they weren't related? |
| 02:59 | <til> | so why should checkValidity only apply to that control |
| 02:59 | <til> | not the group, like with other grouped controls |
| 02:59 | <Hixie> | because what you're proposing is bad ui |
| 02:59 | <til> | applying it to the group seems more consistent - easier to grok |
| 02:59 | <til> | it's no less bad than requiring a radio group to be checked |
| 02:59 | <Hixie> | it would encourage people to make such interfaces |
| 03:00 | <Hixie> | i agree, with radio buttons the mistake is allowing any to not be checked in the first place |
| 03:00 | <Hixie> | unfortunately that boat has sailed |
| 03:00 | <til> | but required is essentially meaningless without applying it to the group |
| 03:00 | <Hixie> | no? |
| 03:00 | <Hixie> | it has a very well-defined meaning |
| 03:00 | <Hixie> | thereis no "group" with check boxes |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | just checkboxes that happen to share a name |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | just like you can have many text input fields with the same name -- doesn't make them into a group |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | if you have <input type=text name=a required> <input type=text name=a required> you aren't required to type something into one or the other |
| 03:02 | <til> | in my mind, a checkbox is a type of radio that is mutually inexclusive |
| 03:02 | <Hixie> | you're required to type something into both |
| 03:02 | <til> | which is why this is distinct from a text input |
| 03:02 | <Hixie> | checkboxes and radio buttons are separate just like checkboxes and text fields |
| 03:02 | <til> | checkboxes are closer to radio than to text fields |
| 03:04 | <Hixie> | i think thinking of them as similar is misleading and leads one to designing poor UIs |
| 03:19 | <Hixie> | i really don't think that extending the wacky radio button required="" model to text fields makes any sense at all |
| 03:19 | <til> | anyway, is there even a concept of order in query parameters? |
| 03:20 | <til> | couldn't you have either Apt#B 123 Fake St and 123 Fake St Apt#B |
| 03:20 | <til> | depending on how the vendor parses it? |
| 03:20 | <Hixie> | it's always sent in form order |
| 03:20 | <til> | or does A before B in the HTML mean A is before B in the query? |
| 03:20 | <til> | ok |
| 03:21 | <til> | so your counterpoint is that someone could have address as the name for both fields, and only want to require the first line? |
| 03:21 | <til> | and want the second line filled to not fulfill the first line's requirement? |
| 03:22 | <til> | since there's no way to know on the server side which was filled, i don't see why the requirement should affect text fields any differently than radios or checkboxes |
| 03:25 | <til> | if you have text boxes A B and C called address, and get two values for address on the server side |
| 03:25 | <til> | you don't know which two you got |
| 03:25 | <Hixie> | you always know which one was filled in since you always get both, in the order they were in the form |
| 03:25 | <til> | but if B is empty, you don't get a key with no value |
| 03:25 | <Hixie> | whether or not they were filled in |
| 03:25 | <Hixie> | yes you do |
| 03:25 | <til> | really? |
| 03:25 | <til> | ok |
| 03:26 | <til> | my mistake |
| 03:32 | <til> | i'm less bothered by your opinion on the matter than that there is no discussion about it |
| 03:32 | <til> | i feel steamrolled |
| 03:32 | <til> | i'd really like to hear other people's POV on this, because I feel my original point remains valid |
| 03:39 | <Hixie> | til: you can ask for an escalation -- see the boilerplate i posted in the bug for details on how to do that |
| 03:40 | <til> | i misunderstood. i'm not used to being able to reopen my own bugs |
| 03:43 | <Hixie> | well reopening just means you're asking me to reconsider -- if you want to escalate it to a working group issue that the chairs then decide on rather than me, you have to set some keyword or something |
| 03:43 | <Hixie> | and then some elves come along and automagically raise the issue for you |
| 03:43 | <Hixie> | (honestly not quite sure how that happens) |
| 03:44 | <Hixie> | there's a link in the boilerplate i pasted that explains it iirc |
| 03:44 | <til> | i'm working on that now |
| 03:44 | <Hixie> | k |
| 03:44 | <til> | i'm slow to respond because i'm typing in bugzilla :) |
| 03:44 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 03:53 | <til> | Hixie: thanks for the discussion |
| 03:53 | <til> | i've escalated the bug |
| 03:53 | <til> | hopefully we can get more input |
| 04:46 | <JonathanNeal> | Added IE9 IE9 http://sandbox.thewikies.com/html5-browser-stylesheets/table.php |
| 07:00 | <JonathanNeal> | How can I get tweet feeds on the page. |
| 07:01 | <JonathanNeal> | like a kind-of twitter widget that will show anything related to #iecss |
| 07:48 | <hsivonen> | is this test case considered to reflect the current spec? http://simon.html5.org/test/opera/datalist.htm |
| 08:17 | <JonathanNeal> | http://www.iecss.com/ woot |
| 08:20 | <hsivonen> | JonathanNeal: interesting. I was unaware that IE had undergone unit category changes in the UA style sheet |
| 08:36 | <JonathanNeal> | hsivonen, between versions? yes. |
| 08:53 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: yes |
| 08:54 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I guess I'm looking at a parser bug, then |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: it's filed in v.nu bugzilla |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: thanks. I just filed it as https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=555906 while I wasn't looking at IRC |
| 09:09 | hsivonen | notes that the Vodafone rep to the TAG still puts EXI as a bullet point on "mobile" slides |
| 09:18 | <othermaciej> | what is EXI? |
| 09:19 | <zcorpan> | the class='' recommendation on b and i doesn't make much sense |
| 09:19 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: "efficient" binary compression representation for XML infosets |
| 09:20 | <othermaciej> | oh, that |
| 09:20 | zcorpan | bets OBML is more efficient than EXI |
| 09:21 | <zcorpan> | but maybe not a fair comparison since obml doesn't represent an infoset |
| 09:25 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: is OBML what Opera Mini uses? |
| 09:25 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: does it transfer the CSS box tree? |
| 09:26 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: it's what opera mini uses |
| 09:27 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i don't know what it transfers exactly |
| 09:28 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: ok |
| 10:24 | <zcorpan> | feature testing for structured clone in webworkers is similarly annoying |
| 10:25 | <zcorpan> | it would be easier if non-strings throwed from the start |
| 10:54 | gsnedders | gives up on trying to go to Glasgow |
| 10:55 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: The answer for what OBML transmits is AFAIK "no comment" :) |
| 10:57 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: I see. my css box tree guess remains |
| 12:40 | <zcorpan> | does anyone know which server is used for http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/websocket/tests |
| 12:47 | <zcorpan> | https://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/WebKitTools/Scripts/webkitpy/layout_tests/port/websocket_server.py ? |
| 13:05 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: tyoshino or ukai will know |
| 13:05 | <MikeSmith> | though they may be away |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | (21:11 in Japan) |
| 13:07 | <tyoshino> | hi |
| 13:07 | <tyoshino> | ukai should know well but he's not here now. |
| 13:08 | <zcorpan> | ok, thanks |
| 13:09 | <tyoshino> | basically you're right. we're using pywebsocket and some helper scripts |
| 13:10 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 13:22 | <annevk> | I now got that attachment (indeed looks like a Word document), but I cannot open it... |
| 13:23 | <jgraham> | Post it on the public web as a hacking challenge |
| 13:24 | <jgraham> | Give extra credit for inventing a time machine to crack it before March 15th 2010 |
| 13:25 | <annevk> | someone with Word can prolly win that contest within minutes |
| 13:29 | <Philip`> | annevk: Delete a few bytes at random from the file, so Word will just report it as corrupted and fail |
| 13:32 | <jgraham> | annevk: Still you get to find out what the file says |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | just got a reply with the questions inline |
| 13:34 | <zcorpan> | but no time machine :( |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | you guys watch too much tv |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | and mostly science-fiction at that it seems :p |
| 13:41 | <Philip`> | It's strange how rarely science fiction focuses on technology problems like incompatible file formats |
| 13:41 | <Philip`> | The problems are always stuff like engines exploding |
| 13:41 | <Dashiva> | Cowboy Bebop had an excellent take on that |
| 13:41 | <Dashiva> | They found a really old video tape they wanted to play, but it was betamax |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | Even with modern cars, it's pretty rare for the engine to explode and pretty common for the on-board computer to develop some kind of software fault, so presumably the same kind of thing will continue into the future |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | The only exception I can think of (with my not-very-good memory) is in Halting State, where some guy stays up all night writing Perl scripts to translate data between two slightly different databases |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | but then it's spoiled by having a computer that explodes later on |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | (if I remember correctly) |
| 14:40 | <hsivonen> | I wish iki.fi had shorter delays on DNS updates... |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | the server that hosts hsivonen.iki.fi changed its IP address without prior notice |
| 15:05 | <erlehmann> | hsivonen, did you change that 404'd PNG link ? |
| 15:33 | <hsivonen> | erlehmann: not yet. I intend to fix it once my personal site becomes usable again. |
| 16:18 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: what's rumored to be in this Word file you've obtained? |
| 16:20 | <JonathanNeal> | Goodmorning :) |
| 16:22 | <jgraham> | Timezoneist |
| 16:25 | <MikeSmith> | in Japan, for people who work at bars and such at night, it's common to say おはよ (good morning) no matter what time of day it actually is |
| 16:25 | <MikeSmith> | when first seeing somebody for the day |
| 16:26 | <MikeSmith> | even if that happens to be 23:00 in the evening or whatever |
| 16:26 | <MikeSmith> | what is Viognier? |
| 16:26 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, Rhone valley |
| 16:27 | <MikeSmith> | this could be good |
| 16:27 | MikeSmith | looks around for the wine steward |
| 16:28 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: In Japan it it common for shop assistants to compete for who can say "Irashaimasen!" in the most whiny voice. Doesn't mean it's a good idea :) |
| 16:28 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 16:29 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: that's why I wear earblugs |
| 16:29 | <MikeSmith> | plugs |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | one unfortunate thing in Japan is that being enthusiastic sometimes (often) means being noisy |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., if you go to a baseball game, there is always this huge cheering section of people who do nothing but make noise for the entire game |
| 16:31 | <MikeSmith> | I think most of them are not actually paying any attention at all to what is going on in the game |
| 16:33 | <MikeSmith> | wow, this Viognier tastes somewhat like one of those chocolate oranges |
| 16:34 | <MikeSmith> | Terry's Chocolate Orange |
| 16:38 | <paul_irish> | what's the viognier? |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: wine |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | white wine |
| 16:38 | <paul_irish> | hahah no i mean who is the vineyard. :) |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | Gadino Cellars, Greene County, Virginia |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | apparently |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | I don't recommend it |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | unless you really like chocolate oranges |
| 16:40 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: btw, jgraham may know about the Opera UA stylesheet |
| 16:40 | <paul_irish> | Oh tight. I'd love to grab it to incorporate into JonathanNeal's table |
| 16:40 | gsnedders | notes jgraham doesn't |
| 16:40 | <MikeSmith> | s/jgraham/gsnedders/ |
| 16:41 | gsnedders | knows a bit |
| 16:42 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: How do you know what I know? |
| 16:42 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Because when it came up before I remember you not knowing much. |
| 16:42 | <gsnedders> | Of course, you may have learnt since |
| 16:42 | <jgraham> | Not really |
| 16:43 | <jgraham> | Also, I have no idea what the contex is for the email you just sent |
| 16:43 | <jgraham> | *context |
| 16:43 | <gsnedders> | See, you're cluelesss. |
| 16:43 | <gsnedders> | *clueless |
| 16:44 | <jgraham> | The first case was more serpentine than clueless |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | paul_irish: The basic answer is there is no CSS file available for the UA stylesheet |
| 16:44 | <gsnedders> | (But you probably know taht already) |
| 16:49 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: is there any way to get a dump of the CSS rules? |
| 16:49 | <paul_irish> | Hm, this was the case for IE too, but jon was able to extract the values from this nasty XML mess. regardless, if there is any opera resource for the default styling available.. i'd be great to document :) |
| 16:50 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: I can't think of any trivial way |
| 16:51 | <MikeSmith> | I would think there'd be some userjs way to do it |
| 17:11 | gsnedders | realizes he can't actually spell oliver |
| 17:15 | gsnedders | guesses we have at least another four hours until olliej wakes up |
| 17:16 | <gsnedders> | (Call me cynical, but...) |
| 18:22 | <JonathanNeal> | hello again |
| 18:25 | <JonathanNeal> | Did we ever find the Opera UA stylesheet? |
| 18:26 | <gsnedders> | It's not there to be found. |
| 18:26 | <JonathanNeal> | :( |
| 18:27 | <JonathanNeal> | Does Gecko have a separate icon? |
| 18:37 | <gsnedders> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Heringsschwarm.gif |
| 18:37 | <gsnedders> | w00t for animated gifs |
| 18:38 | <Philip`> | I like that the thumbnail is animated |
| 18:38 | <Philip`> | You don't get that with <video>s |
| 18:49 | <JonathanNeal> | More than halfway through capturing opera styles |
| 18:50 | <gsnedders> | Anyone able to summarize the Bug 7034 thread? |
| 18:55 | <Philip`> | gsnedders: I think the summary is that nobody knows of a consistent set of rules for precisely determining authoring conformance criteria, and some people think there should be a consistent set of rules, and nobody can agree on what any of the rules should be |
| 18:55 | <gsnedders> | OK, that's the impression I got from the start of the thread |
| 18:55 | gsnedders | marks as read |
| 18:56 | <Philip`> | and after about 120 emails, still nobody agrees on anything |
| 18:57 | <Philip`> | (though the spec now lists some rough principles) |
| 19:18 | <JonathanNeal> | I'm vertifying the styles. |
| 19:18 | <JonathanNeal> | I have a few tests where if the reported styles are false, then changing a few things like colors and font sizes will produce new results. |
| 19:42 | <JonathanNeal> | I would love to add a stylesheet of w3c recommendations @ iecss |
| 19:47 | <ttepasse> | Huh? Why is HTMLAnchorElement.hash readonly in Safari? |
| 21:00 | <JonathanNeal> | http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Ian+Hickson&word2=Mike+Smith har |
| 21:02 | <Dashiva> | Your googlefight priveleges are revoked for failing to use quotes |
| 21:04 | <Dashiva> | I'm a bit confused what the RDFa+HTML activity is supposed to be, beyond rubberstamping RDFa 1.1 Core |
| 21:07 | <othermaciej> | as far as I'm concerned, the HTML+RDFa editor still has to substantively respond to bugs, if he wants it to be an HTML WG deliverable |
| 21:17 | <Dashiva> | othermaciej: Sure, but with "incompatible with deployed content" in the list of available answers, I don't have high hopes |
| 21:28 | <JonathanNeal> | Dashiva, ah come on! |
| 21:29 | <JonathanNeal> | Mike Smith still wins. |
| 21:34 | <othermaciej> | Dashiva: if the editor gives answers that a commenter objects to, then of course they are free to raise it as an issue, whatever the nature of the reason given |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | man, why are people suddenly all up in arms about changes that HTML_4_ made? (like getting rid of frames, font, etc) |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | did they run out of things in HTML5 to complain about? |
| 23:26 | <JonathanNeal> | Who's complaining? |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | JonathanNeal: How far did you get with trying to get a stylesheet for Opera? |
| 23:26 | <Hixie> | people in www-style (about frames) and public-html (about everything under the sun, but more recently, not being allowed to use media-specific formatting features mixed in with their semantic markup) |
| 23:27 | <JonathanNeal> | gsnedders, http://www.iecss.com/ at the bottom is a link to the opera stylesheet. |
| 23:27 | <JonathanNeal> | along with firefox and webkit. |
| 23:45 | <JonathanNeal> | Hi TabAtkins! |
| 23:45 | <JonathanNeal> | Do you have a twitter? |
| 23:45 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, @tabatkins |
| 23:46 | <JonathanNeal> | Wow ... your site |
| 23:46 | <JonathanNeal> | It has mario clouds |
| 23:49 | <JonathanNeal> | gsnedders, will that work for you? |
| 23:50 | <gsnedders> | JonathanNeal: I was just looking to see if I saw anything that totally jumps out at me as being wrong |
| 23:51 | <JonathanNeal> | Don't we have folks who work on Opera, Webkit, IE in this chan? |
| 23:51 | gsnedders | works at Opera |
| 23:51 | <JonathanNeal> | They should be able to say "no no no, you got that wrong, oooh you forgot this, ooooh good call didn't realize we had that in there" |
| 23:51 | <gsnedders> | We're mainly markup people here, though |
| 23:52 | <gsnedders> | What do we know about layout? :P |
| 23:52 | <JonathanNeal> | gsnedders, oh okay, I was going to ask "are you permitted to share your ua stylesheet?" |
| 23:52 | <gsnedders> | JonathanNeal: The answer is there is no CSS stylesheet. |
| 23:52 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, there is now :) |
| 23:57 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: My homepage is still *entirely* useless. But yes, they are Mario clouds. |
| 23:57 | <TabAtkins> | Eventually, when I care about it, those clouds will be links. |
| 23:58 | <JonathanNeal> | I know I need to add something like audio[controls] { display: inline; } |
| 23:58 | <JonathanNeal> | for opera |
| 23:58 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: You could make links rain out of the clouds |
| 23:58 | <TabAtkins> | Philip`: That sounds... ridiculous. |
| 23:59 | <JonathanNeal> | ...ly awesome |
| 23:59 | <Philip`> | Someone should make a cloud-computing admin interface that consists of Mario jumping across clouds, and headbutting them to reboot them |
