| 00:20 | <TabAtkins_> | hober: I think your Change Proposal is good. |
| 00:33 | <hober> | thanks! any suggestions for improvements? |
| 02:05 | TabAtkins | doesn't know who people are at this talk, so is just hanging out until we have a panel discussion. |
| 02:07 | <annevk> | there's a talk first? |
| 02:07 | <TabAtkins> | Man, apparently? |
| 02:07 | <TabAtkins> | http://voyageofhtml5.eventbrite.com/ |
| 02:07 | <Dashiva> | So where's our april's fools joke? |
| 02:08 | <TabAtkins> | There is no April Fools joke this year. |
| 02:08 | <Dashiva> | Is that the joke? |
| 02:08 | <TabAtkins> | You'll never know. |
| 02:08 | <Dashiva> | "Consider HTML5 is such a joke to begin with, WHATWG has decided to instead commit to a April's Fools serious activity" |
| 02:09 | <TabAtkins> | Heh, where's that from? |
| 02:09 | <Dashiva> | I made it up |
| 02:09 | <Dashiva> | April's fools! |
| 02:09 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, gotcha. |
| 02:09 | <annevk> | laughing out loud! |
| 02:55 | <boblet> | MikeSmithX: you there? |
| 02:55 | <MikeSmith> | boblet: yep |
| 02:56 | <MikeSmith> | sorry for not replying to e-mail |
| 02:56 | <MikeSmith> | I was traveling yesterday |
| 02:56 | <boblet> | np :) thought you’re busy so maybe IRC is faster |
| 03:01 | <MikeSmith> | boblet: let's ping annevk later when he's on |
| 03:01 | <annevk> | I'm here |
| 03:01 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 03:02 | <annevk> | waddup? |
| 03:02 | <boblet> | heh |
| 03:02 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: boblet's going to Fukuoka also on April 24 for the Web event I mentioned |
| 03:02 | <MikeSmith> | we need to decide how many days to stay there |
| 03:02 | <boblet> | annevk: hear you’re coming to Japan to partake in Mike’s … unique hospitality style :) |
| 03:03 | <boblet> | should be lots of fun |
| 03:03 | <annevk> | it was cool last time :) |
| 03:03 | <annevk> | my only constrain is that I fly out May 8 |
| 03:04 | <boblet> | I think Oikawa-san is doing a same-day trip, but Shiraishi-san wants to stay Saturday night. dunno if Yakura-san has mentioned his plans yet |
| 03:05 | <boblet> | I’ve got work on 25th, so am trying to decide whether to leave 24th after event or crazy early 25th |
| 03:06 | <boblet> | It’ll be my first time to Kyuushuu so thinking to go 23rd, and wondering what your plans are… |
| 03:06 | <boblet> | what time constraints do you have Mike? |
| 03:07 | <MikeSmith> | none |
| 03:07 | <MikeSmith> | so I guess we can arrive on the 23rd |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | and then stay over on the 23rd and 24th at least |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | maybe head back on the 25th or even 26th |
| 03:10 | <boblet> | it sounds like they’re gonna organise a hotel, but I’m guessing that’d be for a night. ok I might stay 23rd then head back on 24th. I’ll miss the after-party but I wouldn’t be able to drink anyhow |
| 03:11 | <MikeSmith> | we can have a before-party on the 23rd |
| 03:11 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: you know we’re meant to send an indication of costs right? and check the profile page by this w/e? |
| 03:11 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I saw that |
| 03:11 | <boblet> | before-party sounds great, esp. as it’s an afternoon event |
| 03:11 | <MikeSmith> | but I have not had time to check on flights or hotel |
| 03:12 | <MikeSmith> | did Shirakawa-san give any hotel info yet? |
| 03:16 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: apparently Shimokawa-san in Fukuoka has offered to book a hotel for us. I guess somewhere reasonable (they’re paying) and near the venue, which hopefully means convenient for you both outside the covered day(2?) |
| 03:16 | <boblet> | s/day(2)/day(s)/ |
| 03:17 | <boblet> | annevk: they’re also wondering if you’d like to have your name associated with the event… |
| 03:18 | <boblet> | not sure if that means just saying that you’ll be there, or if they’re sounding you out as a speaker |
| 03:18 | <MikeSmith> | boblet: do we have a URL for this thing yet? |
| 03:19 | MikeSmith | shuold probably go back and read the e-mail |
| 03:43 | <annevk> | for continuity, the above was handled in /msg |
| 03:47 | <annevk> | so for the CSS value API we need some kind of hashmap and some kind of list |
| 03:47 | <annevk> | e.g. for 'margin' you need a hashmap and for 'cursor' you'd need a list |
| 03:48 | <annevk> | the hashmap can be immutable, but the list needs to be mutable |
| 03:49 | <annevk> | another constrain is that both the hashmap interface and list interface might need to be implemented on the same object in certain scenarios (for backwards compatibility; if something changes from being just a hashmap into a comma-separated list of hashmaps) |
| 03:49 | <annevk> | current sketch I have: |
| 03:49 | <annevk> | map { mapLength, mapKey(), getter getMapItem() } |
| 03:51 | <annevk> | list { listLength, insertListItem), deleteListItem(), getter getListItem() } |
| 03:52 | <annevk> | since getListItem() takes an int and getMapItem() takes a string the getter thing ought to work |
| 03:52 | <annevk> | thoughts? |
| 04:04 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/Bess/status/11402770234 -- 'Tab Atkins says "sexiest" thing in HTML5 is CSS transformation. CSS camp is more peaceful than JS camp. Too much fight over JS camp' |
| 04:04 | <annevk> | o_O I wonder what was actually said |
| 04:25 | <djbpython> | anyone have any good examples? having trouble parsing some html into an lxml etree |
| 05:30 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I am sad that the YouTube HTML5 beta no longer works :-( |
| 05:42 | <MikeSmith> | djbpython: using html5lib? |
| 05:54 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: ping |
| 06:03 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: my WebKit keeps crashing |
| 06:03 | <MikeSmith> | r56855 |
| 06:04 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: hmmm |
| 06:04 | <othermaciej> | I am running my own build of r56882 |
| 06:04 | <othermaciej> | it does not seem particularly crashy |
| 06:04 | <othermaciej> | is there any particular site that reproduces it? |
| 06:06 | <MikeSmith> | I got a bunch of tabs open |
| 06:06 | <MikeSmith> | and it seems to be crashing not on any particular site |
| 06:07 | <MikeSmith> | I'll mess around with it some more and see |
| 06:22 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: crashing on the "Thank you for testing WebKit" page |
| 06:22 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: consistently? |
| 06:22 | <othermaciej> | http://nightly.webkit.org/start/about is not crashing for me in my build |
| 06:24 | <MikeSmith> | so it opens http://nightly.webkit.org/start/trunk/56855 , then if I close that window (so there are no more windows open), then go to my History and select the "Thank you for testing WebKit" page, then let it open, then close it, then it crashes, consistently |
| 06:25 | <MikeSmith> | it gives me a "Do you want to resent application settings for WebKit?" dialog |
| 06:25 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: can't repro on my current build; will try it with an actual nightly |
| 06:26 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 06:26 | <MikeSmith> | I tried the "Reset and relaunch" option, but it seems to have made no difference |
| 06:28 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: pong |
| 06:29 | <hsivonen> | today is the day when you can't trust news :-( |
| 06:29 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: maybe it's an OS problem.. I've not restarted my machine for a long time |
| 06:30 | <othermaciej> | tried with the nightly - cannot repro |
| 06:31 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 06:31 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I'll try restarting my machine |
| 06:37 | <Lachy> | Has anyone come across any obvious or funny april fools day hoaxes yet? |
| 06:37 | <othermaciej> | I hope the YouTube HTML5 beta is an April Fool's joke |
| 06:37 | <othermaciej> | er the HTML5 beta being broken |
| 06:57 | <Lachy> | http://youtube-global.blogspot.com/2010/03/textp-saves-youtube-bandwidth-money.html |
| 06:58 | <Lachy> | I wish I could find a video that that new feature works on. |
| 07:00 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: works on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDe4v318f64&feature=featured&textp=fool |
| 07:01 | <Lachy> | doesn't work for me |
| 07:02 | <othermaciej> | worked for me |
| 07:02 | <othermaciej> | in fact, works every time I visit that page |
| 07:04 | <Lachy> | damn geo-ip restrictions. Only works for me when I connect to a VPN in the US |
| 07:18 | <Lachy> | hmm, maybe it's not intentional geo-ip restrictions after all. It works from London too. It just doesn't work within Norway. It might just be something to do with their CDN caching, and not having the updated Flash video distributed everywhere yet. |
| 08:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: Did you make defer on VBScript invalid on purpose? |
| 08:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: everything that's not JS is a data block, right? |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: restarted my machine but still crashing |
| 09:17 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, "lxml.etree.XMLSyntaxError: htmlParseCharRef: invalid xmlChar value 55349, line 59559, column 2233" |
| 09:17 | <MikeSmith> | when running the splitter |
| 09:19 | <Philip`> | That's a surrogate thingy? |
| 09:19 | <Philip`> | Sounds like the Anolis serialisation bug |
| 09:19 | <Philip`> | creating invalid HTML which lxml is therefore unable to load |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: no, what makes you think that? |
| 09:20 | <Philip`> | (i.e. it's not my fault) |
| 09:20 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: executable code = script. non-executable = data. |
| 09:20 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: You obviously don't read the logs :) |
| 09:21 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: I read them, but I skip all the boring parts |
| 09:22 | <jgraham> | I stand by my original statement then |
| 09:23 | <jgraham> | Anyway it is a bug in the python stdlib that makes the html5lib serializer spit out the wrong character references for non BMP characters |
| 09:23 | <jgraham> | gsnedders promised to fix it yesterday, so complain to him |
| 09:24 | <jgraham> | (and then to me to update pms I guess) |
| 09:27 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: should we invent a mime type specifically for <script> data blocks? |
| 09:27 | <jgraham> | (and, then, for completenes, at Hixie to regen the spec) |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: Ok, thanks |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | btw, I did just find it in the logs also |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: wouldn't the mime type depend on what type the data block uses? |
| 09:28 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: so that people know what to use and newer scripting languages are less constrained by legacy |
| 09:28 | MikeSmith | wonders what to do in the mean time, because this is breaking the build of the multipage W3C copy of the spec |
| 09:29 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: a parameter or data-* could be used to distinguish different types of data blocks |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | "some of the named character references are in fact combining characters".. great stuff |
| 09:30 | <jgraham> | I'm not sure that is insane from a MathML point of view |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: i don't understand what problem that would solve, though it seems like it would make things more complicated in general |
| 09:31 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: i don't know what to put in type='' if i want to use a custom data block |
| 09:32 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: if i make something up, it might clash with some future scripting langauge that makes up the same mime type as i did |
| 09:32 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: MathML should really be discouraging people from used named character references, instead of facilitating it |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | the same type you would use for content-type if you were sending that block over http |
| 09:32 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: i'm not sure if the characters being combining is intentional -- we should ask the mathml wg about that |
| 09:33 | <zcorpan> | hmm, i guess that would be text/plain |
| 09:33 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I see |
| 09:34 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: If hand authoring is a goal there is no other sane way to do it |
| 09:34 | <jgraham> | If had authoring is not a goal we get into "the tools will save us" territory |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | god save anybody who tries to do hand authoring of any serious mathml |
| 09:36 | <zcorpan> | indeed |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | Well yeah it is painful |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | But moving it from painful to effectively impossible is still not good |
| 09:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: so a validator can't check the requirement because the validator can't know which MIME types are executable by some UA |
| 09:40 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I thought data blocks were defined to be things that aren't JS |
| 09:41 | <hsivonen> | Should I expect class selector matching to be sufficient proof of what encoding was used for a CSS file in IE6? |
| 09:42 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: well, you can hard-code that text/javascript and a few other script types are script types and assume most other types are not, but yeah, there's no way to reliably check that |
| 09:42 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: but then, you have the same problem with reliably checking the syntax of the scripts themselves |
| 09:42 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: you can only check the syntax of things you know about |
| 09:42 | <hsivonen> | right |
| 09:42 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: but it's easy to check async/defer |
| 09:42 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: and src |
| 09:43 | <hsivonen> | oh. right. you aren't supposed to use src with data blocks |
| 09:43 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the newly-introduced requirement is redundant, then |
| 09:43 | <hsivonen> | which confused me |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | how so? |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | i made a bunch of changes today |
| 09:44 | <Hixie> | i'm not sure which you're talking about |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan> | async and defer must not be present if src isn't |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan> | src is not allowed on data blocks |
| 09:44 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: the one that says async and defer are prohibited on data blocks |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | r4927 |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | oh, oops, i missed the requirement on async and defer needing src |
| 09:45 | <Hixie> | only saw it for charset |
| 09:45 | <boblet> | Dear cabal, for your amusement: http://twitter.com/boblet/status/11414105037 /cc TabAtkins |
| 09:48 | <hsivonen> | is the REPLACEMENT CHARACTER supposed to match in a selector just like any other character? |
| 09:48 | <Philip`> | boblet: That actually has been proposed on the WHATWG list, I believe |
| 09:50 | <Philip`> | boblet: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6999 |
| 09:50 | <Philip`> | (I was wrong) |
| 09:52 | <boblet> | Philip`: omg, not even in April! |
| 09:52 | <boblet> | wow, reality rules |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | yeah, reality is always crazier than April Fools. |
| 09:54 | <jgraham> | Also from WHATWG "Should we have attributes to indicate whether <video> content [...] is NSFW" |
| 09:54 | <hsivonen> | this XHTML 3.0 announcement is an old joke, but it's pretty much like XSL-FO: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/xhtml3.html |
| 09:55 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: looks like what a lot of people in public-html are suggesting should be valid |
| 09:56 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I don't know if that's the criterion the chairs will apply. |
| 09:56 | <Hixie> | which criterion? |
| 09:57 | <asmodai> | heh, got to love xkcd's april's fool |
| 09:57 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: that things that a lot of people suggest to be valid should be |
| 09:58 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: One of the principal suggesetees is himself a chair |
| 09:59 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: oh i wasn't suggesting that it would pass or fail or that it was a good or bad idea, i was just pointing out that that april fools was another example of something that some people were suggesting seriously |
| 09:59 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: oh |
| 10:00 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: well, previously one complaint was that Hixie had opinions of his own. at least Maciej and Paul participate in gauging if Sam's opinion enjoys consensus |
| 10:01 | MikeSmith | puts a s/5[5-6][0-9][0-9][0-9]/32/g into his makefile |
| 10:02 | <Hixie> | we haven't actually seen what the chairs base their decisions on yet |
| 10:03 | <Hixie> | so far as far as i'm aware we haven't seen any non-editorial decisions from the chairs |
| 10:03 | <Hixie> | and their editorial decisions have been more or less random |
| 10:03 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: won't that affect other parts of the spec? e.g. the websocket handshake examples have some random numbers |
| 10:04 | <zcorpan> | maybe they don't match the pattern |
| 10:05 | <Hixie> | (e.g. microdata is in its own draft despite being pretty tightly integrated with html, but a random meta name keyword is in the same draft as <meta> despite being mostly useless and completely independent) |
| 10:05 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: even though the basis isn't overt, all the three chairs are supposed to participate in the decision |
| 10:05 | <Hixie> | (have there been other decisions?) |
| 10:06 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: they might be using dice for all i can tell :-) |
| 10:07 | <Hixie> | we don't really have enough data to be able to tell yet |
| 10:08 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: I meant it just as a workaround until it's fixed or worked around in html5lib |
| 10:09 | <hsivonen> | argh. the rejection of non-text/css sheets makes stuff harder to test |
| 10:09 | <hsivonen> | I need to configure my server to have a separate set of extensions for misconfigured versions of each MIME type |
| 10:10 | <hsivonen> | I already map .html to text/html; charset=utf-8 and .htm to text/html |
| 10:11 | <hsivonen> | and yes, apparently REPLACEMENT CHARACTER works like any other character for selector matching |
| 10:19 | <gsnedders> | Yay for 4933 giving us a load to update in html5lib |
| 10:19 | <hsivonen> | has Opera started rejecting non-text/css sheets even in the quirks mode? |
| 10:19 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: no |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | ok i should sleep now |
| 10:19 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 10:20 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: oops. I forgot to change my default encoding in Opera back to Windows-1252 after setting it to a Cyrillic encoding |
| 10:24 | <hsivonen> | It would be very interesting to test this document.open() stuff in IE5 |
| 10:24 | <hsivonen> | and Netscape 4 |
| 10:26 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: do you happen to remember why you made the spec say that the encoding for document.open()ed docs is UTF-16? |
| 10:26 | <hsivonen> | oh. Hixie went to sleep |
| 10:30 | <zcorpan> | "You can tell if a browser has so designated its content handler |
| 10:30 | <zcorpan> | by trying to display a JPEG in <embed>." |
| 10:30 | <zcorpan> | browsers support jpeg in embed |
| 10:50 | <asmodai> | Hixie sleeps? |
| 10:50 | <asmodai> | I thought he was a script. |
| 10:53 | <zcorpan> | scripts can sleep |
| 10:57 | <Dashiva> | They just lock up the application when they do |
| 10:58 | <zcorpan> | Hixie locks up HTML5 when he sleeps |
| 11:05 | <asmodai> | heh |
| 11:47 | <Lachy> | today's xkcd is brilliant :-) |
| 11:47 | <asmodai> | Lachy: tried sudo apt-get dist-upgrade yet? |
| 11:48 | <Lachy> | asmodai, no. Just tried (sudo) make me a sandwich |
| 11:50 | <asmodai> | interesting read about that privacy issue with :visited |
| 11:50 | <asmodai> | http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/03/privacy-related-changes-coming-to-css-vistited/ |
| 11:52 | <gsnedders> | dbaron posted something too |
| 11:52 | <gsnedders> | On his own site |
| 11:53 | <Lachy> | haha, try the cat command :-) |
| 11:54 | <Dashiva> | It doesn't jive well with having browser shortcuts on . and - |
| 11:54 | <Lachy> | yeah, it doesn't seem to work in opera well at all |
| 11:58 | <asmodai> | always Opera... ;) |
| 11:59 | <asmodai> | gsnedders: but it's linked to from that link I pasted |
| 11:59 | <gsnedders> | Oh, I didn't notice that when I read it yesterday |
| 12:01 | <Philip`> | It saves a lot of effort if you just read http://github.com/chromakode/xkcdfools/blob/master/xkcd_cli.js instead of typing in commands |
| 12:02 | <Dashiva> | I just put the page source into jslint |
| 12:04 | <asmodai> | rofl, even a small adventure clone built in |
| 12:04 | <Dashiva> | I didn't get this one for the asl: '6/M/Battle School' |
| 12:05 | <asmodai> | oneliners['emacs'] = 'You should really use vim.'; |
| 12:05 | <asmodai> | oneliners['vi'] = oneliners['vim'] = 'You should really use emacs.'; |
| 12:05 | <Philip`> | Ender? |
| 12:06 | <Philip`> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ender's_Game_series_organizations#Battle_School |
| 12:06 | <asmodai> | Never read it (yet). |
| 12:07 | <gsnedders> | asmodai: Uh, yeah. That comes from a xkcd comic. |
| 12:08 | <asmodai> | gsnedders: Read them all but can't remember that one |
| 12:20 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fjacobrask.net%2Fcontenteditable-style.htm |
| 12:21 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: it doesn't seem to like <!doctype html><body> <style scoped></style> |
| 12:21 | <gsnedders> | (note the spac) |
| 12:21 | <Creap> | <- jacobrask |
| 12:21 | <gsnedders> | Oh, the space doesn't matter |
| 12:22 | <gsnedders> | <!doctype html><title></title><body><style scoped></style> is invalid if you believe the validator |
| 12:22 | <gsnedders> | Creap: Do you need different nicks on different servers!? |
| 12:22 | <brucel> | c'mon, who believes a validator? puh-lease! |
| 12:22 | <gsnedders> | I don't ;P |
| 12:23 | <jacobrask> | gsnedders: work and non-work ;) |
| 12:23 | gsnedders | just gets confused because his Opera and W3C usernames are "gsneddon" |
| 12:27 | <brucel> | nice glass dolphin, eh, gsnedderws |
| 12:30 | <nessy> | nice new currency ;) |
| 12:31 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: thanks. I have no idea how that bug arose. |
| 12:36 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: Curious thought: when do you anticipate the mathml to stop throwing errors? :) |
| 12:38 | <hsivonen> | asmodai: I want to say "later this month", but because I don't want to make promises I can't keep, I'm not promising anything |
| 12:38 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: Ok, but it's on a fairly soonish schedule, which is cool |
| 13:03 | hsivonen | notes that the commenters on the Chromium blog and the commenters on the Flash Player blog have very different attitudes towards bundling Flash with Chrome |
| 13:13 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: yes |
| 13:18 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: I'm starting to write up wording for allowing @href/@src instead of/in addition to @xlink:href, and I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how we can resolve the dual-attribute conflicts... |
| 13:24 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: the most obvious thing that comes to mind would be to use xlink:href it it is present and the new thing otherwise |
| 13:31 | <jgraham> | Happy mailman reminder day everyone |
| 13:33 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: what about the DOM value reflection for say, @href and @src? |
| 13:45 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: is the DOM property now href? |
| 13:48 | <hsivonen> | hmm. it is |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | adding no-namespace href and src may be more trouble than they are worth |
| 13:50 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: I don't have a good idea for reflecting no-namespace href and src consistenly |
| 13:50 | <asmodai> | When did Firefox stop giving clipboard access by default? 3.6? |
| 13:51 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: since .href setter will have to continue to set xlink:href |
| 13:51 | <hsivonen> | or I'd assume that has to happen for compat |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: for setters to work sanely, you should probably have new DOM properties for no-name href and src |
| 13:53 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: but I can't think of a sane name for the href property |
| 13:54 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: why do you want to introduce new attributes with duplicate behavior? |
| 13:54 | <hsivonen> | setAttributeNS sucks, but if script authors use the href setter, they don't need the NS-aware attribute setter |
| 13:55 | <hsivonen> | and writing xlink:href is not *that* terrible when factoring in the backwards compat benefit |
| 13:57 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: it's been a pain point for several developers (though I didn't mind so much myself), and for it would be nice for SVG newbies to have more consistency between SVG and HTML |
| 13:57 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: if we're making incompatible changes to SVG, let's kill the load event |
| 13:57 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: I see |
| 13:58 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: maybe that (the load event) should be on the table, too) |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: anyway, it seems to me that the hardest part is figuring out the DOM property setter story for the no-namespace href |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: sorry I don't have a solution |
| 13:58 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: has the SVG WG already agreed to make the load event async? |
| 13:59 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: zcorpan said Opera implements it as async |
| 13:59 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: re: load, I don't recall... we did discuss it |
| 13:59 | <shepazutoo> | that will be resolved in SVG 2, I imagine |
| 14:00 | hsivonen | would love to have a preliminary resolution before we ship the HTML5 parser |
| 14:00 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: re: href setter, yeah, it's tricky |
| 14:00 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: what's your timeframe? |
| 14:00 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: no hard timeframe yet |
| 14:00 | <hsivonen> | turning it on by default was a Q1 goal but now it's a Q2 goal... |
| 14:01 | <hsivonen> | shepazutoo: anyway, resolving the bug is scheduled for Q2 |
| 14:01 | <hsivonen> | the bug being that the HTML5 parser doesn't dispatch the SVG load event |
| 14:04 | <shepazutoo> | hsivonen: then let's focus on getting something in the SVG 2 spec in that tiemframe |
| 14:42 | <brucel> | Can I just grab some svg and paste it into my html5 code and have it render? I know I will be able to, but can I now? |
| 14:47 | <jgraham> | brucel: In Gecko with html5.enable, yes |
| 14:47 | <jgraham> | For most values of svg |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | FWIW, double hyphens in comments are truly interop-sensitive: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556037 |
| 14:49 | <Philip`> | brucel: And in IE9 |
| 14:54 | <jgraham> | brucel: Obligatory example: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/441 |
| 14:54 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: I get an Internal Error |
| 14:55 | <jgraham> | Oh |
| 14:55 | <jgraham> | Yeah |
| 14:55 | <jgraham> | Well nevermind, make up your own demo :) |
| 14:55 | <jgraham> | (it was probably too long) |
| 15:05 | <brucel> | thanks. So I need an html5 parser (or IE9!) to have SVG in HTML5 in practice, tho its allowed in the spec as is |
| 15:06 | <beowulf> | http://jonnycampbell.com/ # i think the sections should be articles… |
| 15:09 | <jgraham> | brucel: Yes, presumably most browsers are going to add SVG-in-text/html support as part of larger parser changes for HTML5 compliance |
| 15:10 | <brucel> | thx. |
| 15:32 | <beowulf> | ok, that link i posted is a little weird, for me it showed code, for someone else it's showing a weblog. ah well. |
| 15:37 | <jgraham> | beowulf: Seems to be a design decision |
| 15:37 | <jgraham> | s/incorrect spellings/correct spellings/ |
| 16:22 | <JonathanNeal> | Mornin! |
| 17:23 | <gsnedders> | So, apparently I should make some decision about university. |
| 17:23 | <gsnedders> | I don't like decisions. |
| 17:24 | <jgraham> | Well it seems like you don't have that many options so it should be really easy |
| 17:25 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: what kind of decision? which one to attend? |
| 17:28 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: So I have an offer from Glasgow for CS (almost everywhere else rejected me). Do I bother to go to Glasgow or not, will I gain enough from it for it to be worthwhile? |
| 17:29 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: I don't have a good picture of what schools are good in the UK |
| 17:29 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: this is undergrad, or graduate? |
| 17:29 | <gsnedders> | undergrad |
| 17:29 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: FWIW I think you are underestimating the amount of useful stuff in the degree course |
| 17:30 | <jgraham> | I can't imagine you already know all the useful theory + mathematics + so on |
| 17:30 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: I think what you learn in an undergrad CS program is likely to be very useful, assuming you are interested in a career in programming or related professions |
| 17:30 | gsnedders | isn't sure about taht |
| 17:30 | <gsnedders> | *that |
| 17:31 | <othermaciej> | I came into college thinking I knew a lot, but I learned a lot, including important frameworks for how to think about things |
| 17:31 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Which part? The career interest or the fact that the material is useful? |
| 17:31 | <gsnedders> | The career |
| 17:31 | <jgraham> | Well if you're not interested in it you are doing a very poor job of demonstrating it |
| 17:31 | <othermaciej> | in the US you don't have to pick your field of study before you start |
| 17:32 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: Typically here you do |
| 17:32 | <jgraham> | (although of course there is always more flexibility than they let on) |
| 17:32 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: are there other things you might be interested in pursuing as a career? |
| 17:33 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: Quite a few English related careers (writing, journalism, editing, publishing I all would quite like) as well aeronautical engineering |
| 17:35 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: at MIT, the aero/astro program was famous for being brutally hard, and yet with not so great career prospects |
| 17:35 | <othermaciej> | it was widely believed to be the hardest major |
| 17:36 | <othermaciej> | not saying that should dissuade you, just reporting |
| 17:36 | gsnedders | didn't get the impression it had that bad career prospoects |
| 17:36 | <jgraham> | If you are mainly interested in career prospects (which are not the only, or necessarily even the main consideration) all the things you listed are pretty poor |
| 17:36 | <othermaciej> | I expect writing is something you could pursue as a minor or simply by taking the right classes while doing another degree |
| 17:37 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: it's not that getting a job is impossible, it's just that it apparently doesn't pay very well compared to other engineering fields, in light of how hard it is |
| 17:39 | <jgraham> | (in particular all beginning English students want to be writers and/or journalists. They all end up being teachers) |
| 17:39 | <jgraham> | (note: there is some degree of generalisation there) |
| 17:40 | <beowulf> | i studied geology, it has something like 3% employment in the field rate for grads |
| 17:40 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I know, that's part of the reason why I'm not quite taht enthusastic |
| 17:40 | <beowulf> | you can always do another one :) |
| 17:42 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: I guess I'll do Gaelic at university then... |
| 17:51 | <gsnedders> | So yeah, I have no idea. |
| 20:29 | <Lachy> | http://www.trainsignal.com/WindowsTraining.aspx |
| 20:41 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Will you murder me if I stay in Sweden? |
| 20:47 | <gsnedders> | No RFCs published yet today. :( |
| 21:01 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Possibly. And do what? |
| 21:47 | <AryehGregor> | Bwahaha, http://annevankesteren.nl/test/contenteditable-style.htm is great. |
| 21:50 | <AryehGregor> | Of course, the cool part is the execution, not the actual functionality. |
| 21:50 | <AryehGregor> | The latter would be pretty easy. |
| 22:34 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Hide my body? |
| 22:48 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I doubt that would work. At least that's what TV taught me |
| 22:49 | <jgraham> | (there could be an element of selection bias though) |
| 22:49 | <jgraham> | Anyway it clearly wasn't what I meant :) |
| 22:49 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: More seriously, stay at pera |
| 22:49 | <gsnedders> | *Opera |
| 22:49 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Since when did I ever give you answers straight away which were what you meant when there was an obvious mis-interpretation? |
| 22:52 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Since it took you 1.5 hours to come up with that response I would hardly call it straight away |