| 00:43 | JonathanNeal | patiently awaits TabAtkins vetting. The sensation must be similar to pregnancy results. |
| 00:52 | <othermaciej> | JonathanNeal: that is an odd way to organize the rules |
| 00:53 | <JonathanNeal> | Do you mean the entire sections, like /* Display types */? I organized that per the spec. If you mean the rules within those sections, you're right, I organized them alphabetically by the first property. |
| 00:54 | <JonathanNeal> | It could be organized better for readability in that sense, would you recommend I reorganize it so display:none is followed by display:block etc? |
| 00:56 | <othermaciej> | JonathanNeal: I'm not sure what the purpose of your document is, so I don't really have a preference |
| 00:56 | <JonathanNeal> | othermaciej, really? Well, it's to write out a css stylesheet of all the presentational requirements and recommendations made by the WHATWG for HTML5. |
| 01:02 | <othermaciej> | JonathanNeal: we'll probably have most of these rules in our UA stylesheet eventually, but probably organized by element rather than by specific property value |
| 01:21 | <estellevw> | JonathanNeal: I would agree with the organization comments. I would do a little more grouping by element type and a little less by property. So would group the heading margins and font sizes together for example. |
| 03:10 | <JonathanNeal> | Hello |
| 03:14 | <TabAtkins_> | Yo, JonathanNeal, I don't see <details> in the display section. |
| 03:15 | <JonathanNeal> | Checking |
| 03:16 | <JonathanNeal> | Having some trouble reading the spec. |
| 03:17 | <JonathanNeal> | First time I've had to switch OUT of Chrome. |
| 03:18 | <JonathanNeal> | Ah, I see it's defined in a paragraph and not as CSS, adding. |
| 03:19 | <JonathanNeal> | Okay, added. |
| 04:29 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins_, was the rest up to par? |
| 04:30 | <TabAtkins_> | Didn't finish looking at it before I left work. |
| 08:48 | <Hixie> | annevk: yt? |
| 08:52 | <annevk> | Hixie, yo |
| 08:52 | <Hixie> | annevk: FormData for a <form> -- should I add a method to do it, or are you creating a constructor for it? |
| 08:52 | <annevk> | btw, the form submission stuff remembered me of something, I haven't verified it yet, but I believe implementations do UTF-16 -> UTF-8 there too |
| 08:53 | <Hixie> | don't i have that covered already? file a bug if you want me to look at it |
| 08:53 | <Hixie> | and let me know what you mean exactly :-) |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | Hixie, I can add a constructor for it |
| 08:53 | <Hixie> | k |
| 08:54 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | though is there a generic name/value algorithm for associated form controls defined at this point? |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | iirc it's intertwined with submission |
| 08:54 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#constructing-form-data-set |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | cool |
| 08:55 | <Hixie> | i suppose i should make that its own separate section |
| 08:55 | <Hixie> | feel free to file a bug for that |
| 08:55 | <Hixie> | if you want it more cleanly separated out |
| 08:55 | <Hixie> | (i expect for your purposes you'll be ignoring the "type" entry in the tuple) |
| 08:56 | <annevk> | aah, it was already handled |
| 08:56 | <annevk> | "Otherwise, if the document's character encoding is an ASCII-compatible character encoding, then that is the selected character encoding." |
| 08:56 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 08:57 | <annevk> | I searched the document for UTF-16 before, as that was used for URLs |
| 09:10 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9427 -- with bugs like these we'll never get done |
| 09:13 | <Hixie> | closed |
| 09:13 | <Hixie> | well, resolved |
| 10:27 | <zcorpan> | ukai: hi |
| 11:43 | <remysharp> | quick question: I see how formnovalidate attrib works, but I don't see an example of how novalidate is used |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | <form novalidate> ? |
| 11:47 | <remysharp> | sure, but if I put novalidate on the form, why bother putting an attribute like required on the input field? |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | E.g. with forced previews you could put it on <form> though I suppose in most cases you might as well put it on the button |
| 11:47 | <remysharp> | not sure what a forced preview is - sorry! |
| 11:48 | <remysharp> | the example in the spec for formnovalidate makes absolute sense, but I can't see the use case for novalidate |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | remysharp, e.g. you have to roundtrip with the server at least once before you can actually submit a comment |
| 11:48 | <annevk> | remysharp, for that first roundtrip validation is not needed, but user feedback might still be useful |
| 11:49 | <remysharp> | I still don't see how this works in <form novalidate> |
| 11:49 | <remysharp> | sorry, I don't mean to sound like a pain/muppet |
| 11:49 | <remysharp> | trying to understand the difference :) |
| 11:50 | <remysharp> | one mo, let me mock up my understanding of formnovalidate, and perhaps you can tweak the source to show me how novalidate would work - if that's cool? |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | sure |
| 11:53 | <remysharp> | example: http://jsbin.com/inaxo3 - editable source: http://jsbin.com/inaxo3/edit |
| 11:53 | <remysharp> | so I've got a formnovalidate on the "save" button |
| 11:53 | <remysharp> | annevk: hit "new revision" to save any changes you make |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | my form would have only one submit button |
| 11:58 | <annevk> | see the form here: http://annevankesteren.nl/2010/03/css-wg-brainstorming#comments |
| 11:58 | <remysharp> | sure - but imagine the form is some big ebay style thing where there's lots of content being saved |
| 11:59 | <remysharp> | it's a contrived example I know :) |
| 11:59 | <remysharp> | it's more to show the formnovalidate attribute working |
| 11:59 | <remysharp> | but I'm struggling to see how novalidate comes in to play |
| 11:59 | <annevk> | sure, i was just saying that for preview you might not care about validation yet |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | and therefore add novalidate to <form> |
| 12:00 | <remysharp> | if you use it on the form element, then what's the point in having validation on the form at all? |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | user feedback while entering controls |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | you still have the form controls apply and all etc. it just doesn't prevent submission |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | sites might want to use this too if they don't care if the user got the email address correct or not |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | but still want the control to integrate with the address book and create better input methods |
| 12:01 | <remysharp> | okay, *that's* what I was looking for |
| 12:01 | <remysharp> | perfect, cheers. |
| 12:02 | <remysharp> | I can see it being used on the type="email" input, and as you said, still benefits from web forms integration |
| 12:02 | <remysharp> | cheers :) |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | to be clear, "novalidate" cannot be specified on <input>, just on <form> |
| 12:05 | <remysharp> | crap. |
| 12:05 | annevk | wonders if validate and formvalidate would have been better |
| 12:05 | <remysharp> | okay, so - say we didn't want to validate the email address field, and used type="email" to still integrate as you suggested |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | no, it's either all or nothing |
| 12:06 | <remysharp> | but I want to validate the required field of their name |
| 12:06 | <remysharp> | crap. |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | I just gave email as an example |
| 12:06 | <remysharp> | okay. |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | for <input required> it's the same |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | ideally you would people to fill in a name and give feedback to that effect, but if they don't it's no biggy |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | and you put (anonymous + md5(ip)) there or something :) |
| 12:07 | <remysharp> | formnovalidate is really useful, I'm not sure novalidate is /that/ useful... :) |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | it's mostly there for consistency |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | all attributes on <form> for which it makes sense are exposed on submit buttons |
| 12:11 | <asmodai> | annevk: managed to overcome the jetlag? |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | not sure it makes much sense for enctype come to think of it |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | asmodai, yeah, pretty much |
| 12:12 | <asmodai> | Good ^^ |
| 12:13 | <annevk> | warming up for a new jetlag next week :) |
| 13:17 | <boblet> | annevk: you’ll have the sento to help you get over that tho, and late night izakaya drinking ;-) |
| 13:17 | <boblet> | easy peasy |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | boblet, hehe :) |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | wait, boblet, you are the same as danield right? |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | your whois info confuses me |
| 13:57 | <MikeSmith> | boblet is not danield |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | wow, my bad |
| 14:02 | annevk | hides |
| 14:23 | <boblet> | hey annevk, yep not Daniel. Oli of HTML5Docs IRL ;-) |
| 14:23 | <boblet> | hey Rem. ’sup |
| 14:23 | <remysharp> | fieldsets and validation. |
| 14:23 | <boblet> | annevk: what in whois was confusing? |
| 14:24 | <remysharp> | so - fieldset elements have the checkValidity method |
| 14:24 | <boblet> | heh, still on that huh :) |
| 14:24 | <boblet> | hats off |
| 14:24 | <remysharp> | I thought this would trigger the validation against the element collection against that fieldset |
| 14:24 | <remysharp> | but it doesn't... so - |
| 14:24 | <remysharp> | just wondering if I missed a trick or if someone can explain what is expected when you run fieldset.checkValidity() |
| 14:25 | <remysharp> | that was an open question btw :) |
| 14:31 | <remysharp> | damn |
| 14:31 | <boblet> | heh, poor Remy |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | boblet, that your name was not danield :p |
| 14:31 | <boblet> | huh |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | indeed, my apologies |
| 14:32 | <boblet> | annevk: who is this danield fellow, obviously using the good name of boblet for villany!? :) |
| 14:32 | <boblet> | np yo |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | ourmaninjapan |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | quite literally |
| 14:32 | <boblet> | aah |
| 14:32 | <boblet> | *click* |
| 14:32 | <boblet> | that DanielD |
| 14:33 | <boblet> | nope, he is far better at Ukulele and far more employed than I :| |
| 14:38 | <boblet> | anyone here had experience with Arabic, Hebrew or Korean text? have a ruby question for you if so… |
| 17:26 | <JonathanNeal> | hi all |
| 17:27 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: hey |
| 17:47 | <JonathanNeal> | What time are TabAtkins and Hixie usually about? I'm uber excited to get my css vetted. |
| 17:48 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie's not usually around until the early afternoon. |
| 17:48 | <TabAtkins> | And I'm looking over the CSS *right this minute*. |
| 17:49 | <gsnedders> | Hixie just lives weird hours |
| 17:50 | <JonathanNeal> | Constantly flying in an airplane ... never knows when it's gonna be day or night. |
| 17:52 | <TabAtkins> | No, he just keeps weird hours normally. I don't think he flies that much. |
| 17:52 | <TabAtkins> | He's certainly not a talk-circuit junkie. |
| 17:53 | <gsnedders> | He avoids flying much. |
| 17:53 | <TabAtkins> | Anyone know if there's an easy setting in Gnome to make focus-follow-mouse, but not autoraise-on-focus? |
| 17:53 | <JonathanNeal> | No, I was joking, rather saying that he is constantly in a fantastic flight around the world, rarely touching down, like some kind of airborne hughes. |
| 17:55 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: I doubt it |
| 17:56 | <jgraham> | gnome is not known fro exposing loads of settings |
| 17:56 | <TabAtkins> | ;_; |
| 17:56 | <jgraham> | (I love gnome to pieces btw) |
| 17:56 | <TabAtkins> | I got so used to focus-follows-mouse after using TweakUI in XP. It kills me to not have it anymore. |
| 17:56 | <TabAtkins> | Having to raise a window just to scroll it is barbaric. |
| 17:57 | <jgraham> | Hmm? I just mouse over the window and twiddle the scroll wheel |
| 17:57 | <jgraham> | no focus needed |
| 17:58 | <TabAtkins> | Okay, true, scrolling works. But not typing! |
| 17:58 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: If you install CompizConfig settings manager then you can change the option |
| 17:58 | <jgraham> | under General Options -> Focus and Raise behaviour |
| 17:58 | <TabAtkins> | Excellent. |
| 17:59 | <jgraham> | Also, not being able to type in window that you have not focused is a feature not a bug |
| 17:59 | <jgraham> | (s/focused/explicitly focused/) |
| 17:59 | <TabAtkins> | I explicitly focus windows by putting my mouse in them. |
| 18:00 | gsnedders | explicitly reminds himself that devianART is not productive |
| 18:00 | <TabAtkins> | If I want to raise them, I'll click. But raising should be unrelated to whether it's active. |
| 18:00 | <jgraham> | My experience of focus follows mouse is that I typically inexplicably focus windows by placing the mouse over them |
| 18:00 | jgraham | explicitly reminds gsnedders that he is supposed to be on holiday |
| 18:00 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: That happened to me for like a week, then I got used to it and it was much easier. |
| 18:01 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: But I could be doing more productive things like reading a book |
| 18:01 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Not staring at a computer screen |
| 18:01 | <TabAtkins> | Your notion of 'productive' seems oddly tweaked. |
| 18:01 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: Also you should install the compizconfig thing anyway because otherwise you can't enable the grid plugin and without the grid plugin life just isn't good |
| 18:01 | <gsnedders> | Oh, and listening to metal, just to prove I'm not called "James", no matter what people say. |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: And writing, that's the other thing I meant to do toady |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | (number of words written: 0) |
| 18:02 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: that on apt? |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: yeah |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | or rather, TabAtkins: yeah |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | gah |
| 18:02 | gsnedders | is too tired |
| 18:02 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Please stop defining reading a book as "productive". It reminds me of the painful hacker news thread where people were trying to defend reading fiction on the basis that you might learn facts about the real world |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | rather than because, say, it is fun |
| 18:03 | <TabAtkins> | Named? apt-get install compizconfig is no good. |
| 18:03 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: You might! The Zombie Survival guide is useful! |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: no idea try synaptic + search |
| 18:03 | <gsnedders> | or aptitude if ou think a GUI is too much effort |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Also, I am worried in case you have taken to referring to me as your doppelganger |
| 18:04 | <TabAtkins> | They are! |
| 18:04 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: You could install KDE, and then System Settings > Window Behaviour > Focus > Policy > Focus Follows Mouse |
| 18:04 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: In reference to my Facebook status? |
| 18:04 | <TabAtkins> | Then I'd have to go install kde, though. (I do like KDE a bit better, though.) |
| 18:05 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Yeah. Or twitter thing or whatever it was |
| 18:05 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: No |
| 18:05 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Merely how I behaved at school, which was nothing like me |
| 18:05 | <jgraham> | Philip`: That would have the unfortunate side effect of forcing you to use KDE |
| 18:05 | <Philip`> | jgraham: s/un// |
| 18:05 | <jgraham> | s//un/ |
| 18:06 | <TabAtkins> | I hope you didn't mean that last regexp, jgraham. |
| 18:06 | <Philip`> | m/oo/n |
| 18:06 | <jgraham> | magic irc regexps |
| 18:06 | <jgraham> | they have the effect that you indend as long as what you write can be interpreted as vaugely alluding to the right change |
| 18:07 | <TabAtkins> | I prefer real regexps, so they can be properly interpreted by our minuting script. |
| 18:07 | <jgraham> | It is fortunate then that no one is minuting in here |
| 18:07 | <TabAtkins> | Curses, foiled again! |
| 18:08 | <jgraham> | I would say it is fortunate that nothing important enough it happening in here for anyone to bother taking minutes but I have seen minuted meetings |
| 18:08 | gsnedders | heads off to do this whole "fun" thing |
| 18:09 | <TabAtkins> | I think it's more fortunate that we all minute ourselves voluntarily. |
| 18:10 | <jgraham> | Well yeah, the logs are a good thing, no question |
| 18:10 | <TabAtkins> | Now, about this compiz business. Just how much do I have to install of this? I see a bunch of packages here, and one is named "compiz-gnome". |
| 18:11 | <TabAtkins> | I suppose the config one is the compizconfig-settings-manager package? |
| 18:11 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 18:12 | TabAtkins | got far too used to running as root most of the time. |
| 18:15 | <TabAtkins> | Yay! All fixed. |
| 18:17 | <TabAtkins> | (There was indeed a setting, in System->Prefs->Windows |
| 18:19 | <jgraham> | But now you can use the grid plugin too :) |
| 18:19 | <jgraham> | (assuming you got the compiz settings thing installed) |
| 18:20 | <TabAtkins> | I installed it, but now I can't figure out how to run it. Damn these command lines! |
| 18:21 | <TabAtkins> | nm, found it. |
| 18:22 | <TabAtkins> | Is it the "Window Rules" setting? |
| 18:50 | <estellevw> | jonathanNeal: are you going to add article, section, etc to your css? |
| 18:51 | <JonathanNeal> | Strange, they're missing, aren't they. |
| 18:52 | <JonathanNeal> | Okay, they're in --- strange how they wound up missing. |
| 18:59 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: No it is under plugins -> Grid or something |
| 19:00 | <jgraham> | search for grid anyway |
| 19:00 | jgraham | can't check right now as he is on the wrong computer |
| 19:31 | <JonathanNeal> | Does the spec say anything about the required / recommended outline for :link ? |
| 19:45 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-file-writer-api-20100406/ |
| 19:46 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal, that should be on :link:focus, but the spec does not mention it |
| 19:46 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal, you should prolly file a bug |
| 19:46 | othermaciej | wishes File Writer could be a Web Apps spec so I could have some place sensible to send review comments |
| 19:46 | <JonathanNeal> | I've never filed a bug ... linkie? |
| 19:47 | <TabAtkins> | JonathanNeal: Just go to the spec, click in the section you want to file on, and type in the issue in the box at the bottom. |
| 19:49 | <JonathanNeal> | Okay |
| 19:49 | <annevk> | othermaciej, oh it's not? |
| 19:49 | <othermaciej> | annevk: I think it's DAP |
| 19:49 | <annevk> | othermaciej, meh, there's so much overlap |
| 19:50 | <JonathanNeal> | Done! :) |
| 19:52 | <JonathanNeal> | Firefox suggests the outline should be on anything focusable. |
| 19:53 | <JonathanNeal> | Is there a pseudo selector for that? :selectable ? |
| 19:53 | <annevk> | :focus |
| 19:53 | <miketaylr> | :focus? |
| 19:53 | <JonathanNeal> | There you go.. better to place it on that then :link |
| 19:54 | <JonathanNeal> | Although I won't until it's gonna be in the spec. |
| 21:45 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: D'oh, I'm on Ubuntu 8.04, Grid doesn't appear to be installed by default, and make errors out if I follow the install process on the wiki. ;_; |
| 21:50 | <karlushi> | http://www.museumsassociation.org/about all the fonts are recreated with a canvas element and then we can't select the text. View source is working but copy/paste doesn't |
| 21:52 | <miketaylr> | yes, cufon has that limitation |
| 21:57 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: Ah |
| 21:58 | <jgraham> | It installed for me in 8.10 and comes by default in (at-least) 9.10 |
| 21:58 | <TabAtkins> | I blame Google. |
| 21:58 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: So does everyone else |
| 21:58 | <jgraham> | For everyhing |
| 21:58 | <jgraham> | So it's ood to get ome practice in so you are used to it |
| 21:59 | <jgraham> | + some random letters |
| 22:01 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: I guess if you are sticking to LTS versions, 10.04 is not far away |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | 10.10 was going to be LTS and not 10.04, I thought |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | No, 10.04 |
| 22:02 | gsnedders | thought he saw something that said LTS was being pushed to 10.10 |
| 22:03 | <jgraham> | Ah, well I was just going with the "every two years" thing |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | where is philipj |
| 23:48 | <TabAtkins> | MikeSmith: Somehow I stopped receiving public-html email on April 1, and I no longer appear on the member's list. This might be related to my affiliation change on Thursday. |
| 23:59 | <volkmar> | Hixie: ping |
| 23:59 | <othermaciej> | TabAtkins: did your AC rep renominate you? |