| 00:13 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: please file bugs, i'd be happy to move words around if it helps |
| 00:13 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: will do |
| 00:13 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 00:27 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9491 |
| 00:59 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: ta |
| 01:31 | <jonnybarnes> | Hey guys |
| 02:00 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: the wording of the footer element’s example about links in footer has changed in WHATWG spec, so you might want to update nav details box |
| 02:03 | <boblet> | s/element’s/element/ (or more precisely the example about links in the footer) |
| 02:04 | <boblet> | Hixie: given this change to nav, would the defining characteristic of a group of links that warrants nav still be that they’re important enough to have a title? something else? |
| 02:05 | <boblet> | eg, it seems the Exampland wiki footer links could also now be nav, so wondering if this is stylistic or if there’s still a reason they’re not |
| 02:39 | <JonathanNeal> | hey all |
| 02:41 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: what it be like |
| 02:41 | <JonathanNeal> | it be like this.... yo IE8 is scor'n 18/160 on html5test.com |
| 02:43 | <JonathanNeal> | Actually ... more like "hey guys, let's grill hotdogs tonight" "fo sho Jon" and everyone is over. |
| 02:44 | <MikeSmith> | who maintains html5test.com ? |
| 02:44 | <miketaylr> | it just showed up on twitter today, afaik |
| 02:45 | <JonathanNeal> | Niels Niels Leenheer |
| 02:45 | <miketaylr> | magically |
| 02:45 | <MikeSmith> | sounds like a fake name |
| 02:46 | <JonathanNeal> | Well, I accidentally wrote his first name twice, the ills of not copying and pasting. |
| 02:46 | <miketaylr> | too bad, Neils Neils is kinda catchy |
| 02:47 | <JonathanNeal> | I agree. |
| 02:48 | <MikeSmith> | it's an anagram for "See Hell Nine Re" |
| 02:48 | <MikeSmith> | which sounds much more like a real name |
| 02:48 | <MikeSmith> | HTML5 will unleash the Nine Rays of Hell in 2011 |
| 02:49 | <miketaylr> | the good news is that 2011 is just around the corner |
| 02:53 | <MikeSmith> | one side product of public-html discussions is the innovative quoting non-conventions that people seem to come up with |
| 02:53 | <JonathanNeal> | Like? |
| 02:54 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0348.html |
| 02:54 | <MikeSmith> | ME] Yes |
| 02:54 | <JonathanNeal> | YOU] I can make you say things now too |
| 02:57 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 03:00 | <JonathanNeal> | YOU] We're releasing HTML5 this summer, so I can spend more time buying new iPhones. |
| 03:00 | <JonathanNeal> | ME] Wow! Great idea, Mike. |
| 03:02 | <paul_irish> | MikeSmith: http://twitter.com/rakaz is the html5test guy. already pinged him about some weak tests. |
| 03:02 | <paul_irish> | apparently the site's been out for a month. |
| 03:02 | <paul_irish> | funny how that happens |
| 03:04 | <MikeSmith> | it does seem like a useful site I guess |
| 03:05 | <MikeSmith> | even though its secret purpose is to quietly prepare for the unleashing of the Nine Rays of Hell |
| 03:06 | <JonathanNeal> | That is the ULTIMATE purpose! |
| 03:06 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: is dude using modernizer at all? |
| 03:06 | <paul_irish> | nah |
| 03:06 | <MikeSmith> | modernizr make that |
| 03:06 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: I wonder why he's not |
| 03:06 | <paul_irish> | that findmebyip.com site that's gotten a lot of play does, though. |
| 03:06 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 03:07 | <paul_irish> | theres a few things he's got i'm gonna pick up.. like output/progress/meter elements.. and undoManager |
| 03:07 | <miketaylr> | yeah, saw those |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | "A “Browser” is a piece of software used to access & display the Internet on your computer. ".. thanks, sensei |
| 03:08 | <paul_irish> | miketaylr: im sure you saw him fall into the chrome webforms false positive trap |
| 03:08 | <miketaylr> | ITS A TRAAAP |
| 03:08 | <miketaylr> | paul_irish: yeah |
| 03:08 | <JonathanNeal> | A "Browser" is a giant turtle with spikes who wants to kill Mario ... wait. |
| 03:09 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: the Forms 2.0 detection on that site seems wacky |
| 03:10 | MikeSmith | compares it with results at miketaylr site |
| 03:11 | <paul_irish> | miketaylr has his UI tests that are a bit better |
| 03:11 | <JonathanNeal> | paul_irish, what do you guys think of the ie7-js scripts Dean Edwards maintained that would add hover and type="" support to IE? Do you think you'd ever implement stuff like that into Modernizr? |
| 03:11 | <paul_irish> | but they were necessitated because his earlier tests (same as these) did the same falsepositive shit in webkit |
| 03:12 | <paul_irish> | JonathanNeal: hover no. i'm not into parsing stylesheets. authors have been working around div:hover in ie6 forever |
| 03:12 | <paul_irish> | whats type="" support? |
| 03:12 | <miketaylr> | JonathanNeal: whatchu mean by type="" |
| 03:12 | <miketaylr> | o. what paul_irish just said |
| 03:13 | <JonathanNeal> | Oh, I was just talkin' about the new input types. |
| 03:13 | <JonathanNeal> | Oh he parsed stylesheets to add that support? I could build something like that. |
| 03:14 | <miketaylr> | oh you mean his web forms script |
| 03:14 | <miketaylr> | i wonder if he'll ever finish that |
| 03:14 | <Hixie> | boblet: one of the main advantages of <nav> is it lets speech readers skip navigation sections, so in footers it's not especially useful unless you want to style it |
| 03:14 | <JonathanNeal> | Maybe ... you guys are the experts ... I just talk a lot :) |
| 03:15 | <MikeSmith> | nav++ |
| 03:15 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder why nobody has written a change proposal for removing nav |
| 03:16 | <paul_irish> | miketaylr: oh shittttt whoa.. http://code.google.com/p/webforms2/ our buddies weston and zoltan have been hacking on that too |
| 03:17 | <MikeSmith> | wow |
| 03:17 | <miketaylr> | ahh cool. i showed that to weston a while back |
| 03:17 | <miketaylr> | back when dean told me "it's beta, please don't blog about it" :/ |
| 03:17 | <MikeSmith> | did they actually implement the repetition model too? |
| 03:17 | <miketaylr> | oh wait, no sorry. this is weston's old one |
| 03:18 | <boblet> | Hixie: unless you wanted to access those links I guess |
| 03:18 | <paul_irish> | MikeSmith: http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/forums/forum/466583/topic/1604767?message=3994714 looks like it? |
| 03:18 | <Hixie> | boblet: yeah, but who ever uses footer navigation links? |
| 03:19 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: hmm, yeah, 2006 |
| 03:19 | <Hixie> | i mean, if they were meant for common use, they'd be up front |
| 03:19 | <boblet> | well, the Emperor of Exampland, for one |
| 03:19 | <boblet> | ? ;-) |
| 03:19 | <miketaylr> | afaik, weston hasn't touched this in years |
| 03:20 | <boblet> | Hixie: I’m still fuzzy on what is and isn’t a major (née primary) navigation block though. the previous “footer links wouldn’t qualify b/c they’re random” was informative, but that’s gone now |
| 03:20 | <Hixie> | only the author can know what's major and what isn't |
| 03:21 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: the wording of the example about links in footer in the nav element has changed in WHATWG spec, so you might want to update nav details box |
| 03:21 | <boblet> | Hixie: sounds koan-y. me likes |
| 03:22 | <MikeSmith> | I still think it would be useful to have a standard way to distinguish primary navigation from secondary navigation |
| 03:22 | <Hixie> | primary navigation is first? :-) |
| 03:23 | <MikeSmith> | in document order? it could be last if the author wants to, and use CSS to position it |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | seriously, the main distinction that most designers seem to make is between primary and secondary nav |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | if you look at class values and such in more granularity |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | but wtfu do I know anyway |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | I'm not a designer |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | and don't want to be |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | CSS is just to frustrating |
| 03:25 | <MikeSmith> | *too |
| 03:25 | <boblet> | traditionally the hardcore standardista is content then site nav, but with the state of CSS positioning (…implementations) it pretty much always ends up being nav then content |
| 03:26 | <boblet> | s/standardista/standardista approach/ |
| 03:26 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: CSS is great, it’s just the implementations that are … frustrating |
| 03:26 | <MikeSmith> | I guess we will know more after nav gets used -- I'd expect to see a lot of <nav class=primary> and <nav class=secondary> and such |
| 03:26 | <MikeSmith> | boblet: same could be said about many features of the web platform |
| 03:27 | <MikeSmith> | it's all great until you actually try to use it |
| 03:27 | <boblet> | given ppl who care about such things generally add skip links, that could be used as a designator of primary nav |
| 03:28 | <boblet> | generally only one “skip to nav” link, even if there are multiple things that could be marked up with nav |
| 03:28 | <boblet> | (although I’ve seen “skip to search”) |
| 03:28 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: trying to implement http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/text-level-semantics.html#guidance-for-conformance-checkers is giving me heartburn, man |
| 03:29 | <MikeSmith> | I really need to chat with hsivonen |
| 03:29 | <KaOSoFt> | boblet- Why should content be first than navigation? Sorry, I'm kind of new to this Web development topic. |
| 03:30 | <boblet> | KaOSoFt: the idea is that for content pages (ie not the homepage or the archives etc) the user generally wants to get to the content. For text-to-speech reading through the navigation and other stuff in the header takes time (visual equivalent is Flash loading animation) |
| 03:31 | <boblet> | KaOSoFt: hence skip to content links and putting nav after content in HTML (which as mentioned is generally a massive pita) |
| 03:32 | <KaOSoFt> | boblet- Hmmm, "content pages". I get it. Thanks. :) |
| 03:32 | <boblet> | KaOSoFt: happy to help :) |
| 03:53 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: have you found any of the conditions hard other than the paragraph/section one? |
| 03:54 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: the figcaption exception is PITA, though not really hard I suppose |
| 03:55 | <MikeSmith> | the fact that that you the figcaption can occur before or after the img in document order |
| 03:55 | <MikeSmith> | so have to hold off on that check until endelement event for the figure element |
| 03:55 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: I was gonna say - you could track that you are in a figure |
| 03:56 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 03:56 | <MikeSmith> | we just don't have a similar case like this yet to steal from |
| 03:56 | <MikeSmith> | in the existing code |
| 03:57 | <MikeSmith> | we will after this, though, I guess |
| 03:57 | <MikeSmith> | though I hope we won't be needing any more of this kind of stuff |
| 04:00 | <othermaciej> | yeah I don't know what other requirements might be like this |
| 04:01 | <MikeSmith> | hopefully none |
| 04:01 | <MikeSmith> | because from where I sit, it's pretty much an anti-pattern for conformance criteria |
| 04:02 | <MikeSmith> | *for document-conformance criteria |
| 04:03 | <MikeSmith> | it's also a challenge to try to figure out how to provide a concise error message for this set of cases |
| 04:03 | <MikeSmith> | or impossible |
| 04:03 | <MikeSmith> | I think the only practical thing to do is to provide a link to some document that provides detailed guidance |
| 04:04 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., as with the "Use CSS instead" link we have now |
| 04:05 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: I would describe the error as just missing alt |
| 04:05 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 04:06 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: then briefly mention there are some other alternatives for describing an image and link to the list |
| 04:06 | <MikeSmith> | I think "element img is missing required attribute alt" is just about all the error message itself can say |
| 04:07 | <othermaciej> | really, there's no ability to give anything more descriptive for a missing attribute? |
| 04:07 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, there is |
| 04:07 | <MikeSmith> | it can add what you just described |
| 04:08 | <othermaciej> | ok, good |
| 04:08 | <othermaciej> | I found a lot of suboptimal error messages during the conformance study, at some point I should be a good citizen and file more validator bugs |
| 04:08 | <MikeSmith> | what I meant is, just the description of what the actual error is, I don't know what else to have it say |
| 04:08 | <MikeSmith> | some of those I have fixed already |
| 04:08 | <othermaciej> | ah, right, as a short description, I think that is fine |
| 04:08 | <othermaciej> | yeah, I've seen some of your fixes going by |
| 04:10 | <othermaciej> | anyway - that's a mostly accurate description of the error, even though there are a few exemptions to the alt requirement |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | right |
| 04:25 | <JonathanNeal> | heyo |
| 04:35 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: file bugs |
| 06:15 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: any suggestions for a shorter term than "valid URL potentially surrounded by spaces"? |
| 06:16 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: "valid URL attribute value" is a little shorter (assuming that is equally accurate) |
| 06:16 | <othermaciej> | or even just "URL attribute value" if there is no need for the non-valid version |
| 06:17 | <Hixie> | i'd rather not call the syntax by where it's used |
| 06:18 | <Hixie> | that always ends up giving me trouble later when i reuse the syntaxes |
| 06:21 | <othermaciej> | "space-delimited URL" |
| 06:24 | <Hixie> | i'll just go with potentially surrounded by spaces, it's less ambiguous |
| 06:34 | <othermaciej> | it does seem like a pretty unambiguous choice |
| 06:45 | <MikeSmith> | me tries to figure out which way the wind blowing on adding presence of role=presentation as an exception to the alt-required constraint |
| 06:45 | <micheil> | morning good chaps & ladies. |
| 06:46 | <MikeSmith> | if it is favorable I could add it speculatively/experimentally now to the checker in the interest of giving something broader to test against |
| 06:46 | <MikeSmith> | or I could hold off and just do it for now as close to the existing spec as I can get |
| 06:47 | <MikeSmith> | micheil: hey |
| 06:47 | <micheil> | MikeSmith: if it weren't for the variations in spellings, we'd have the same first/last names. |
| 06:48 | <MikeSmith> | your first name has a (tm) in it also? |
| 06:56 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: the role=presentation exception is pointless... it's longer than the alternative (just writing alt="", which implied role=presentation automatically) |
| 06:56 | <Hixie> | s/implied/implies/ |
| 06:57 | <micheil> | MikeSmith: ah, no. |
| 06:58 | <micheil> | MikeSmith: besides, mine's more trademarkable |
| 06:59 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: OK |
| 06:59 | <micheil> | hey, Hixie thanks for the slight tip last night on where to look for the protocol details on websockets, so far I've got the server accepting clients and reading the headers |
| 06:59 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 06:59 | <MikeSmith> | micheil: your parents clearly have more imagination than mine |
| 07:00 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: how about aria-labelledby ? |
| 07:01 | <micheil> | Hixie: I've been working from a slightly different use case, so far all the server's I've seen don't make use of the path in the initial GET request |
| 07:01 | <micheil> | is it intended to be used? |
| 07:01 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6496 |
| 07:01 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: yes |
| 07:01 | <Hixie> | er |
| 07:01 | <Hixie> | micheil: yes |
| 07:02 | <micheil> | Hixie: cool, do you know of any other servers they make use of it? |
| 07:03 | <Hixie> | micheil: i wrote one that does, but it's a hack :-) (i used it to smuggle in the username/password of the user, instead of sending it in the first frame) |
| 07:03 | <micheil> | so far most I've seen don't even parse the headers correctly |
| 07:03 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 07:03 | <micheil> | because, theoretically there aren't any headers not allowed |
| 07:04 | <micheil> | plus, they use a fixed order for them, which isn't correct |
| 07:04 | <Hixie> | that's why the latest draft requires the servers to parse two headers, because otherwise the servers wouldn't parse any and would be vulnerable to a cross-protocol attack from HTTP |
| 07:04 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I see, thanks (about aria-labelledby) |
| 07:05 | <micheil> | two headers? I've missed that one.. I'll have to check up on it |
| 07:05 | <Hixie> | the two Sec-WebSocket-Key headers |
| 07:05 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: as a general rule, ARIA is a layer above HTML, so it should be possible to take any HTML file with ARIA, remove all the ARIA, and not make the page less conforming |
| 07:05 | <micheil> | oh, I thought they were part of the first GET request |
| 07:06 | <Hixie> | micheil: they are |
| 07:06 | <Hixie> | micheil: by "header" i meant "field" in websocket terminology, my bad |
| 07:07 | <micheil> | okay |
| 07:09 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: yeah, that does seems rational, thanks |
| 09:33 | <hsivonen> | ouch. Tony Ross misdescribed the fallback mechanism of <video> at MIX. |
| 09:33 | <hsivonen> | claiming that the fallback content is rendered if the codec isn't available |
| 09:33 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if they've implemented it that way in IE9 |
| 09:34 | <hsivonen> | and I wonder how many MIX10 visitors will now assume they can rely on the described behavior |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmithX> | hsivonen: are you going to around still in a couple hours from now? |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmithX> | I really want to talk with you when you have time |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmithX> | but I need to head out for a bit first |
| 09:44 | <micheil> | Hixie: good lordy is that spec on WebSockets very complete with all basis covered.. |
| 09:58 | <zcorpan> | Hixie++ |
| 09:58 | <micheil> | Hixie: also, with the usage of read 8 bytes from the server/client, I've found an ambiguity: if it's in UTF8, 8 bytes would be variable |
| 09:59 | <micheil> | it may be 8 characters or it could be four |
| 09:59 | <zcorpan> | micheil: the random bytes only use characters in the ascii range |
| 09:59 | <micheil> | ah |
| 09:59 | <jgraham> | micheil: it need not be characters at all |
| 10:00 | <micheil> | so, in which case the characters would have a string length of 8 |
| 10:00 | <jgraham> | +utf8 |
| 10:00 | <jgraham> | micheil: It is better to think of it as a bytearray of length 8 |
| 10:00 | <micheil> | :/ |
| 10:00 | <jgraham> | Dunno is node.js supports that |
| 10:00 | <micheil> | not sure I have access to bytearray types |
| 10:00 | <jgraham> | concept |
| 10:00 | <micheil> | considering it's js |
| 10:00 | <jgraham> | Right |
| 10:01 | <jgraham> | Hopefully soon |
| 10:01 | <gsnedders> | js-- |
| 10:01 | <zcorpan> | tc39-- |
| 10:01 | <jgraham> | If the TC39 people pull their finger out a little |
| 10:01 | <micheil> | gsnedders: js++*Infinity. |
| 10:01 | <jgraham> | (it looks like WebGL will force the issue though) |
| 10:02 | <gsnedders> | I'm sorry, GWT has made me hate JS forever. |
| 10:02 | <jgraham> | Anyway, the point is that in a sensible languge (note: very few such languages exist) that makes a clear distinction between a string and a sequence of bytes |
| 10:02 | <micheil> | gsnedders: GWT's mainly java though |
| 10:02 | <gsnedders> | micheil: The JS it generates is horrid. |
| 10:02 | <jgraham> | you would treat the random bytes as bytes, not as a string |
| 10:03 | <micheil> | yeah, I'm not generating JS, I'm writing it. |
| 10:03 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Presumably the anyone feels the same way debugging generated bytecode |
| 10:03 | <micheil> | well, I do have a byte buffer that I could use (interfaces with C), but that may be a little heavy |
| 10:03 | hsivonen | hopes the byte array issue gets resolved before any browser ships a release version with WebGL enabled |
| 10:04 | jgraham | seriosuly thinks it would help to replace all the variable names in GWT code with random english words |
| 10:05 | <jgraham> | But feels that eval might screw things up |
| 10:07 | <jgraham> | (the idea being it is easier to figure out what is going on if you can say that "sheep calls confuse which calls ancilliary" rather than "xzy calls dfg which calls ijk" |
| 10:07 | <jgraham> | ) |
| 10:13 | <hsivonen> | it's sure nicer to figure out what GWT is doing if you possess the original Java source and can recompile without minification |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | what bits of Google Wave are open source? |
| 10:14 | <hsivonen> | is any of the front end GWT stuff Open Source? |
| 10:18 | <zcorpan> | annevk: i think it would be awesome if the top five hundred or so websites in each country were accessible |
| 10:18 | jgraham | wonders what metric you are using for top 500 |
| 10:19 | zcorpan | is quoting annevk's blog |
| 10:19 | <jgraham> | I mean quite a few of those are probably porn. DO you get accessible porn? |
| 10:19 | <zcorpan> | it would be awesome |
| 10:21 | <gsnedders> | So, the alt text for images is just erotic writing instead of the pictures? |
| 10:22 | <zcorpan> | what about video? |
| 10:23 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I guess a transcript wouldn't help much |
| 10:23 | <annevk> | zcorpan, yeah, maybe I should have lowered the number, wasn't sure |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/07/27/imagination |
| 10:25 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I didn't dount that there sould be a demand for accessible porn |
| 10:25 | <jgraham> | Well I did obviously |
| 10:25 | <jgraham> | But I didn't mean to |
| 10:25 | <jgraham> | I meant to doubt that it would be an alternative presentation of other porn |
| 10:26 | <jgraham> | rather than a totally different resource |
| 10:26 | <jgraham> | s/sould/would/ |
| 10:27 | <jgraham> | s/dount/doubt/ |
| 10:27 | <jgraham> | You know I read that several times and didn't notice that I had totally misspelt the key word in the sentence |
| 10:30 | <annevk> | now http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2010Apr/0039.html (Member-only) is interesting |
| 10:30 | <annevk> | finally some hidden agenda gossip |
| 10:37 | <micheil> | hmm.. what would be an example of the /resource name/ for a websocket on the server? |
| 10:37 | <micheil> | morning there jeremy (adactio) |
| 10:37 | <adactio> | Morning. |
| 10:42 | <jgraham> | micheil: Presumably it can be anything you want |
| 10:42 | <micheil> | hmm.. |
| 10:42 | <micheil> | okay |
| 10:42 | <jgraham> | It is just an opaque string that gets used by the server however it choses |
| 10:42 | <micheil> | it's definition seems rather ambiguous, I don't know if it should be clarified (/cc Hixie ) |
| 10:43 | <micheil> | under the definition, it states that it should be the resource given in the clients handshake, then there's two blank lines and something about True / False if encrypted |
| 10:44 | <micheil> | True if the connection is encrypted or if the server expected it to be encrypted; false otherwise. |
| 10:44 | <jgraham> | The two blank lines sound like they should be talking about the secure flag |
| 10:44 | <jgraham> | What document are you reading? |
| 10:47 | <zcorpan> | ok now someone needs to test for canvas bugs in flash cs5 |
| 10:48 | <annevk> | hmm, I meant W3C Member-only above... |
| 10:48 | <jgraham> | annevk: What other type of Member could you have meant? |
| 10:49 | <jgraham> | whatwg Member I guess |
| 10:57 | <micheil> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-socket-protocol/ |
| 11:00 | <micheil> | same is present in the latest draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hixie-thewebsocketprotocol-75#section-5.1 |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | -75 and and the whatwg.org version are different |
| 11:01 | <micheil> | on may be more up-to-date |
| 11:02 | <annevk> | whatwg.org is |
| 11:02 | <micheil> | but the problem is present from about -67 onwards |
| 11:02 | <jgraham> | If you have a trunk gecko or webkit based browser to hand (or maybe even lynx or something) I seriously recommend using http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html?slow-browser=1#network |
| 11:03 | <jgraham> | It is always the latest version and you can link to any part you are having trouble with |
| 11:03 | <micheil> | that is hella slow, but anyway :) |
| 11:03 | <jgraham> | I think, but without complete certianty, that the slow-browser thing stops some scripts from running |
| 11:03 | <jgraham> | which makes it faster |
| 11:04 | <jgraham> | (but that might just be the main spec or I might have forgotten the right parameter name) |
| 11:06 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: ?slow-browser is right |
| 11:06 | <micheil> | hmm.. I suppose rather then setting my key_1 & key_2 to be the values of the two Sec-WebSocket_Key[1|2] fields, I should just set them to be the numbers, as that's all that's actually used, isn't it? |
| 11:07 | <micheil> | no, actually that's wrong. |
| 11:07 | <zcorpan> | the numbers and the number of spaces are used |
| 11:07 | <micheil> | yeah |
| 11:07 | <micheil> | I might have to make that a sub-method.. |
| 11:07 | <micheil> | bbl. dinner |
| 11:08 | <micheil> | thanks for the help folks :) |
| 11:10 | <zcorpan> | hmm wonder if it's problematic if the client inserts the spaces at the start or at the end of the string |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | not if you have a WebSocket server |
| 11:11 | <annevk> | but if you do both HTTP and WebSocket you need some kind of switching before continuing parsing |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | or raw buffer access or something I suppose |
| 12:18 | <micheil> | annevk: the solution is to make proper use of the upgrade / connection headers |
| 12:21 | <annevk> | so if you are an HTTP server you parse the first bit as HTTP until you hit the upgrade header at which point you continue parsing using a WebSocket parser? |
| 12:27 | <micheil> | yeah |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | FWIW I think assuming HTTP servers have a particular architecture is probably a bad idea |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | including an architecture required to conform to the spec |
| 12:27 | <jgraham> | (HTTP spec that is) |
| 12:28 | <micheil> | jgraham: true, hence the reason I'm implementing my node websocket server on top of raw network sockets |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | Especially for little-used features |
| 12:29 | <micheil> | I know that the headers in a websocket client are going to be in the format: GET {path} HTTP/1.1\r\n{headers}\r\n\r\n{body}\r\n\r\n |
| 12:29 | <micheil> | or something like that |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | micheil: Right but from the point of view of websockets it means we should be wary of security features that might fail due to likely bugs in servers |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | (i.e. I agree with zcorpan about the location of the spaces) |
| 12:29 | <micheil> | and then the headers are going to be separated as {key}: {value}\r\n |
| 12:30 | <micheil> | and according to the spec for websockets, you should be fine, however, I wouldn't think of sticking websockets and a httpserver on the same network process |
| 12:30 | <micheil> | (ie, reading from the same stream of data) |
| 12:31 | <jgraham> | Me neither but some people seem to want that |
| 12:31 | <jgraham> | Or something |
| 12:31 | <micheil> | you do two processes |
| 12:31 | <micheil> | different ports |
| 12:32 | <micheil> | eg, your webserver on *.host.tld:80, and then your websockets on say, ws.host.tld:80 |
| 12:32 | <micheil> | or just host:80 for http, host:8080 for websockets |
| 12:33 | <micheil> | nothing actually stops the two network sockets from talking to each other, depending on how you architect your app, take PusherApp.com for example, they have a rails app somehow pushing data onto a websocket server |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | jgraham, requiring a WebSocket server to understand HTTP semantics is also bad |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | jgraham, same for a WebSocket client |
| 12:34 | <micheil> | annevk: there needs to be some form of handshaking, and if that's done over upgrade, so be it. |
| 12:34 | <jgraham> | annevk: It doesn't have to at the moment, really |
| 12:35 | <jgraham> | It just has to follow the spec |
| 12:38 | <micheil> | as far as I'm concerned, I'll leave the spec writing to the guys who are the computer scientists or know what they're doing. I'm just interested in implementing and using things to the spec. |
| 12:39 | <zcorpan> | micheil: the spec likely has a number of bugs. if you're implementing it, you might catch bugs as you go, and it'd be really useful if you sent comments about your findings |
| 12:39 | <micheil> | yeah |
| 12:40 | <micheil> | I will do, so far I've only had issues with wording on it |
| 12:40 | <zcorpan> | cool |
| 12:41 | jgraham | wonders how many people are actually Computer Scientists by training. I mean I know Hixie isn't (I know a few people are but most people I just have no idea) |
| 12:42 | <micheil> | jgraham: Hixie isn't? I always had the impression that a lot of the guys on the w3c board / the spec writers were computer scientists and things like that |
| 12:42 | <micheil> | and I'm sure if you asked most web developers, they'd think the same |
| 12:42 | <zcorpan> | raise hands, everyone, who are computer scientists? |
| 12:43 | <asmodai> | What's a computer scientist? Someone who theorizes about computer stuff? |
| 12:43 | <annevk> | jgraham, indeed, that's a good thing |
| 12:43 | asmodai | did 1 year of something akin to CS and then just quit uni altogether |
| 12:43 | <workmad3> | asmodai: that's one thing |
| 12:43 | <annevk> | jgraham, but it does assume HTTP server architecture that also want to implement WebSocket can deal with that |
| 12:43 | hsivonen | has a CS degree |
| 12:43 | <jcranmer> | although I'm still at uni, so.... |
| 12:43 | workmad3 | has a CS masters |
| 12:43 | asmodai | is one of those autodidact scary types |
| 12:43 | <workmad3> | I wouldn't say I'm a computer scientist though |
| 12:44 | Lachy | has an IT degree, which AIUI, is basically the same as a CS degree, but had a different name at my university. |
| 12:44 | <workmad3> | CS is more about research into areas of computing more than actual software development |
| 12:44 | <micheil> | I've so far done.. 1 subject in a computer science degree.. but that's only because I can't do studies fulltime with highschool still on |
| 12:45 | <workmad3> | and I'd say the majority of CS courses and CS professors couldn't program for toffee |
| 12:45 | jgraham | wonders how a course would program |
| 12:45 | <workmad3> | jgraham: bad phrasing there |
| 12:45 | <workmad3> | CS courses don't tend to teach people how to program |
| 12:46 | <workmad3> | they teach students some programming languages, and then it's pretty much ignored |
| 12:46 | <Lachy> | workmad3, do they teach more about hardware aspects of computing? |
| 12:46 | <jcranmer> | pretty much |
| 12:46 | <Lachy> | like processor architectures, etc? |
| 12:46 | <jcranmer> | although in the course I TA, I do make it a point to beat in good coding practices |
| 12:47 | <workmad3> | Lachy: some do, or they'll teach things things like language design principles, or automated program and theorem proving, or lots of advanced db theory |
| 12:47 | jcranmer | will be taking Advanced Algorithm theory, compiler theory, and ethics as CS courses next semester |
| 12:47 | <workmad3> | but (mine at least) stopped on the programming front at the point of 'you can churn out some basic code now, you're a programmer'... no use of VCS, no code design or architecture, basically nothing to make a decent software engineer |
| 12:48 | jgraham | notes that the theoretical CS courses seem the most interesting / useful |
| 12:48 | <jgraham> | (but that could be my bias) |
| 12:48 | <Lachy> | my IT course covered a range of subjects including Java, C++, HTML/CSS/JS, databases and SQL, with little bits about hardware |
| 12:48 | <jcranmer> | well, given the scope of a project in a class, using VCS is pretty much overkill |
| 12:48 | <Lachy> | also covered things like project development and management |
| 12:49 | <jgraham> | (because you can pretty easilly lean to program by programming but learning, say, analysis of complex algorithsm on your own is pretty hard) |
| 12:49 | <micheil> | that's rather confusing.. in that complete work webapp thing, the numbering of sections is totally different to in the IEFT drafts |
| 12:49 | <jcranmer> | I think the largest one I managed to hit was 1K lines in magnitude |
| 12:49 | <workmad3> | jcranmer: if it's over about 100 LoC, I'd want it in a VCS now |
| 12:49 | <workmad3> | although I'd probably use git and just keep it local admittedly :) |
| 12:50 | <jcranmer> | lemme rephrase... it's one or two files, essentially |
| 12:50 | <micheil> | workmad3: what, you mean you don't work like a designer? myclass.final.12.final.proposal.png |
| 12:50 | <micheil> | :P |
| 12:50 | <jcranmer> | VCS comes into play when either a) I want to publish it or b) it's too complex that changing a file or three at a time stops working |
| 12:50 | <workmad3> | micheil: heh :) |
| 12:51 | micheil | wonders if the whatwg specs are in a git repo.. |
| 12:51 | <workmad3> | jcranmer: for me, VCS comes into play when a) I want to do some code |
| 12:51 | <jcranmer> | micheil: svn I believe |
| 12:51 | <jcranmer> | workmad3: wuss :-) |
| 12:51 | <workmad3> | it's just a standard thing to do for me now... especially with how easy it is to just create a git repo for it |
| 12:51 | <micheil> | hmm.. public? |
| 12:52 | <jgraham> | VCS and so on seem like practical skills that are really easy to pick up |
| 12:52 | <jgraham> | Kinda like a physics degree teaching you how to solder |
| 12:52 | <micheil> | what's physics got to do with soldering? |
| 12:52 | <jgraham> | (although I admit I am hopeless at soldering and when I had to do that in my physics degree I made a total mess of it) |
| 12:52 | <workmad3> | jgraham: there were people on electrical engineering course at my uni in the third year who couldn't solder |
| 12:53 | <jcranmer> | micheil: http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker |
| 12:53 | <jgraham> | workmad3: I didn't say engineering on purpose |
| 12:53 | <micheil> | jcranmer: neat |
| 12:54 | <workmad3> | jgraham: my view personally is that if a uni course is claiming to teach programming, then they should teach the good habits that go with it |
| 12:55 | <workmad3> | anyway, I need to go get lunch |
| 12:55 | <jcranmer> | -20 points: used #include "mylib.c" |
| 12:56 | <jgraham> | (the rather strained analogy I was trying to make is that soldering is often a required skill for practising physicists. But the point of the degree is to make sure that you know about quantum machanics and relativity and ways of thinking about solving problems like a physicist, not about how to solder) |
| 12:56 | <jcranmer> | -100 points: code doesn't compile due to cyclic include structure (WTF?) |
| 12:56 | <micheil> | hmm.. with the ASCII case-insensitive comparing, would an implementor be expected to convert from UTF8 to ASCII to compare, or would change the variable value to lowercase and checking it against another value that is lowercase be sufficient? |
| 12:57 | <jgraham> | micheil: It is defined somewhere, but it basically means change ACSII uppercase to ASCII lowercase and leave all other characters untouched |
| 12:57 | <micheil> | yeah |
| 12:58 | <micheil> | so equivilant to javascripts string.toLowerCase |
| 12:58 | <Philip`> | That does Unicode lowercasing, I thought |
| 12:58 | <micheil> | uhh.. I'm not sure |
| 12:58 | <jgraham> | Yes, not equivalent, for the reasons Philip gave |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | You just want tr/A-Z/a-z/ (or whatever the syntax is) |
| 12:59 | <micheil> | hmm.. |
| 12:59 | <micheil> | yeah, so, I'd probably have to use regex, and then use a callback on it |
| 13:00 | <annevk> | or you could map A-Z to a-z and then compare |
| 13:01 | <micheil> | huh? |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | but if you implement in JS I guess regexp might be faster |
| 13:01 | <micheil> | yeah, I think so |
| 13:47 | <micheil> | how does one report a bug? |
| 13:47 | <micheil> | oh, wait, not a bug |
| 13:58 | <erlehmann> | how does one report a feature ? hehehe |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | local authorities |
| 14:00 | <micheil> | erlehmann: no, it was just the way I read it |
| 14:00 | <micheil> | "append ws:// or wss:// to the url" |
| 14:01 | <micheil> | it sounds like you would get the url being: example.comws:// |
| 14:01 | <micheil> | until you read that it's actually url begins empty |
| 15:08 | <annevk> | nessy, it's not reserved, just pointing out how it might affect existing features |
| 15:09 | <nessy> | I think that would be a nice side-effect actually! |
| 15:11 | <nessy> | I don't actually think the attribute name makes much of a difference - but sure, we gotta pay attention to details ;) |
| 15:59 | <annevk> | hsivonen, it should be srclang then arguably |
| 15:59 | <annevk> | hsivonen, or s/src/href/ but that seems worse |
| 16:00 | <hsivonen> | annevk: yeah, I noticed but I went with hreflang still |
| 16:00 | <hsivonen> | annevk: do you have an opinion on my concrete captioning mechanism suggestion at the end of the email? |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | not really sure what to think about pseudo-HTML for captioning to be honest |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | it sure beats TTML |
| 16:05 | <hsivonen> | it's not pseudo! innerHTML is the real thing! |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | heh |
| 16:06 | <annevk> | it does seem relatively straightforward |
| 16:06 | <annevk> | and much more Web-like |
| 16:07 | TabAtkins | boggles at 7 XML namespaces. |
| 16:28 | <TabAtkins> | hsivonen: How are you proposing that the time of the text string be encoded in the HTML version? |
| 16:28 | <annevk> | it's just SRT with HTML instead of text |
| 16:28 | <TabAtkins> | So you still write a number, followed by a time range, then followed by some HTML and finally a linebreak? |
| 16:29 | <TabAtkins> | s/linebreak/empty line/ |
| 16:29 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 16:30 | <TabAtkins> | ok |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | I swaer I saw a caption the other day where they blurred a swearword |
| 16:30 | <TabAtkins> | Um. |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | But I was very unsure afterwards if I had just imagined it |
| 16:30 | TabAtkins | will be brb, rebotting. |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | I always knew TabAtkins had to be a bot |
| 16:33 | <micheil> | question: how does one work out in the websockets if key-number1 is not an integral multiple of spaces1? |
| 16:34 | <micheil> | is it simple a Mod style expression? |
| 16:34 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 16:34 | <micheil> | right |
| 16:35 | <micheil> | so what, key_number1 % spaces1 ? |
| 16:35 | <jgraham> | == 0 |
| 16:36 | <jgraham> | or != 0 I guess |
| 16:36 | <micheil> | yeah |
| 16:36 | <jgraham> | or !== in javascript :) |
| 16:36 | <micheil> | good point there too |
| 16:36 | <micheil> | bitwise vs standard |
| 16:37 | <jgraham> | Well type converting vs non-type converting |
| 16:37 | <jgraham> | ("non-strict" vs "strict" in ES-spec parlance) |
| 16:38 | <micheil> | yeah |
| 16:40 | <gsnedders> | (of course unrelated to strict-mode) |
| 16:40 | <gsnedders> | (I <3 the ES spec) |
| 16:40 | <micheil> | it's surprising how many people are implementing websocket servers wrongly |
| 16:40 | <jgraham> | micheil: The spec changed recently |
| 16:41 | <jgraham> | I expect they are implementing the old spec |
| 16:41 | <micheil> | not that greatly though |
| 16:41 | <jgraham> | or rather implemented |
| 16:41 | <micheil> | in the sense that they are using fixed header fields and very fixed input |
| 16:42 | <jgraham> | Well the whole handshake thing is new |
| 16:42 | <micheil> | ah, fair enough |
| 16:42 | <jgraham> | And there were lots of people pressing to make it easier to implment on top of an existing HTTP server |
| 16:45 | gsnedders | wonders what made Hixie change his mind |
| 16:45 | gsnedders | was arguing that within a few months of him spec'ing out the original WS draft |
| 16:45 | <micheil> | I wouldn't want websockets on top of http. |
| 16:46 | <micheil> | http has a fair bit of extra data baggage, compared with a raw tcp socket |
| 17:00 | jgraham | proposes ircroulette where you get dumped into a random irc channel until you leave or someone kicks you |
| 17:00 | <jgraham> | and then you get dumped into the next channel |
| 17:01 | <jgraham> | and then finally you get dumped by your SO for spending too much time on the internet, become depressed and die |
| 17:02 | <gsnedders> | I guess this is the advantage of not having a SO, you just skip right to the become depreessed and die part, hence wasting less time. |
| 17:02 | <gsnedders> | Optimization ftw. |
| 17:02 | <jgraham> | Nah, you just have to pick one up in one of the irc chennels along the way |
| 17:03 | <jgraham> | *channels |
| 17:03 | <gsnedders> | But I thought all dating IRC channel were 18+! |
| 17:03 | <jgraham> | Do you now understand *random*? |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | *not |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | sigh |
| 17:04 | <gsnedders> | jgraham's a terrible typist. |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 17:04 | <jgraham> | Sorry |
| 17:04 | <gsnedders> | You better be! |
| 17:05 | <gsnedders> | I've got a bottole of Irn-Bru and I'm not afraid to use it! |
| 17:05 | <gsnedders> | *bottle |
| 17:05 | <jgraham> | I'm a bee? |
| 17:05 | <jgraham> | Are you planning to use the Irn-Bru like jam at a picnic? |
| 17:06 | <jgraham> | (that is a waste of good Irn-Bru) |
| 17:06 | <gsnedders> | Well, no. More just to scare you with it's bright orange colour. |
| 17:06 | <gsnedders> | *its |
| 17:55 | <AryehGregor> | Why is Ian listed as the only editor in the W3C Editor's Draft, but David Hyatt listed as a second editor in the WDs? |
| 17:56 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: hyatt no longer an editor |
| 17:56 | <AryehGregor> | So the next WD won't list him as an editor? |
| 17:56 | AryehGregor | needs a source to cite to revert http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HTML5&diff=355515922&oldid=355096550 |
| 17:56 | AryehGregor | suspects linking to the SVN logs would be considered "original research" |
| 17:57 | <gsnedders> | Indeed not |
| 17:57 | <AryehGregor> | Do you know of anywhere this is written down that I can cite? |
| 17:57 | <gsnedders> | Linking to the editor's draft would be to, but what else can you cite? |
| 17:58 | <gsnedders> | What does it currently cite? |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, like, was a change agreed upon somewhere to remove David Hyatt's name as an editor? |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | It currently cites the latest WD. |
| 17:58 | <gsnedders> | Then change it to cite the latest ED |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | That's what I'm doing. |
| 17:58 | <AryehGregor> | I was hoping there'd be a clearer source, though. |
| 17:59 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej sent something to public-html |
| 17:59 | <miketaylr> | AryehGregor: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Apr/0096.html |
| 17:59 | miketaylr | wasn't sure if he imagined that |
| 18:00 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, thanks. |
| 18:00 | <AryehGregor> | Serves me right for not keeping up. |
| 18:01 | <AryehGregor> | It's fun to come across old posts by your n00b self: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=986#c12 |
| 18:01 | <AryehGregor> | "my HTML skills are fairly modest" |
| 18:01 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: You're probably more up to date than the guy who sent the first ever message to whatwg. |
| 18:01 | AryehGregor | doesn't get what that means |
| 18:02 | <gsnedders> | He's get a tens of thousands of unread emails :) |
| 18:02 | <micheil> | jgraham: hmm.. the WebSockets security stuff is probably going to take a while to implement.. |
| 18:03 | <TabAtkins_> | gsnedders: The one about the XML submission format? |
| 18:03 | gsnedders | can't remember what it's about |
| 18:03 | <TabAtkins_> | http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-April/000000.html |
| 18:03 | <gsnedders> | Yeah |
| 18:03 | <inimino> | when was all this Sec-WebSocket-Key1 and Key2 stuff added to Web Sockets? |
| 18:04 | <micheil> | oh. hey inimino |
| 18:04 | <micheil> | :P |
| 18:04 | <inimino> | oh hey micheil ;) |
| 18:06 | <inimino> | I remember the ideal of having Web Socket servers be written in a few lines of Perl, did that die in the IETF? |
| 18:08 | <micheil> | I suppose until I get the Security stuff working, I can leave it out |
| 18:08 | <jgraham> | micheil: To stop cross-protocl attacks |
| 18:08 | <jgraham> | *protocol |
| 18:12 | <gsnedders> | inimino: It still can be done in a few lines of Perl. It just depends how readable you want your Perl to be. |
| 18:13 | <inimino> | gsnedders: indeed :) |
| 18:16 | <TabAtkins_> | <keygen> is generally not something we like, right? It's only specced because it's common on the web and a few browsers have at least parsing support for it? |
| 18:17 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins_: Right |
| 18:17 | <jgraham> | (alos because we don't have a good other solution for the use cases) |
| 18:17 | <TabAtkins_> | k, was just making sure before I responded to the one email about it. |
| 18:18 | <TabAtkins_> | Well, hrm. I still don't know enough to respond to the email correctly. :/ |
| 18:20 | jgraham | discovers that magic from-the-intertubes package delivery+installation isn't so good when the tubes get diconnected |
| 19:06 | <mbelshe> | annevk: yt? |
| 21:05 | <cardona507> | College4 |
| 21:11 | <AryehGregor> | Neat, now Firefox has resizable text areas in 3.7. That's one of the features I actually notice missing when I use Firefox instead of Chrome. |
| 21:12 | <annevk> | mbelshe, am now |
| 21:20 | <TabAtkins> | Yay! |
| 21:20 | TabAtkins | loves resizable text areas. |
| 21:21 | <annevk> | mbelshe, ah, you mailed |
| 21:23 | <cardona507> | resizable text areas are pretty sweet |
| 21:44 | jgraham | wonders if setting pupils on a per-subject basis according to ability is legal in Sweden |
| 21:54 | <AryehGregor> | What do you mean? |
| 22:00 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Me? |
| 22:02 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, you. |
| 22:03 | <jgraham> | Having a setup where, for each subject, pupils are grouped according to their ability in that subject, and each ability group is taught seperately (typically for secondary eduction i.e. 11-16 but potentially for younger or older pupils too) |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | You mean would it be legal for a private school to do that? I can't see why not. Or a public one? |
| 22:05 | <Dashiva> | In Norway the problem is bypassed with elective courses |
| 22:06 | <AryehGregor> | In America it's pretty typical to tier students by ability to some extent. |
| 22:07 | <AryehGregor> | Not that I really know, I went to a yeshiva. |
| 22:07 | <Dashiva> | (But we also have an acknowledged problem of gifted students being neglected in many places) |
| 22:08 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: It is pretty typical in England too, especially in Maths, English and Science |
| 22:09 | <jgraham> | I caan't tell if it happens at all here but I at least know of schools that don't set in maths, which is very uncommon in the UK |
| 22:10 | <jgraham> | (because of the remarkable difficulty of teaching to the whole range of abilities without making half the class suicidal through either boredom or frustration) |
| 22:10 | <jgraham> | (that is, it is very uncommon not to set for maths in the UK) |
| 22:11 | <jgraham> | (or removing the double negative, it is very common to set) |
| 22:12 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: I mean any school. The system of public/private schools is not quite the same as the US I think |
| 22:13 | <jgraham> | In particular there seem to be laws that restrict teaching practices in both |
| 22:45 | <Clubbed> | hi |
| 22:49 | <Clubbed> | why label="" attribute instead of tag? an attribute can contain only text, no markup... i mean that title="" attribute should be <tooltip>... attributes should contains technical informations like urls or ids classes, not visible text |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | label=""? |
| 22:50 | <Clubbed> | yes |
| 22:50 | <Clubbed> | <menu type="context-menu" label="File"> |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | oh on <menu> |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | because operating systems typically just ask for a single string for the menu labels |
| 22:53 | <Clubbed> | uhm |
| 22:53 | <Clubbed> | <label>ddd<b>d</b></label> label.textContent |
| 22:55 | <Clubbed> | limit ui designers means that no one will use label attribute |
| 22:56 | <Clubbed> | this is just my opinion! |
| 22:56 | <Clubbed> | that do you think about it hixie |
| 22:57 | <Clubbed> | *what |
| 22:57 | <Clubbed> | what do you think about |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | i think if people want a context menu they'll use it :-) |
| 22:59 | <Clubbed> | no they will use a random old dhtml javascript context menu :D |
| 23:00 | <TabAtkins> | Why? So they can use <b> in their context menu? |
| 23:00 | TabAtkins | wants everyone to start being able to use <menu> yesterday. |
| 23:00 | <Clubbed> | yes, it is just an example |
| 23:00 | <Clubbed> | just like icon="" attribute |
| 23:01 | <Clubbed> | if i want to use two icons |
| 23:01 | <Clubbed> | ? |
| 23:01 | <Clubbed> | and |
| 23:01 | <TabAtkins> | Your context menu is, fundamentally, a limited thing. When you right-click on things, you get a series of plain text labels that execute some command when you click on it. |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | context menus on windows and mac don't generally have bold text and so forth, why would web authors want something fundamentally different? |
| 23:03 | <TabAtkins> | On any distro of Linux that I've personally experienced, too. |
| 23:03 | <Clubbed> | tabatkins |
| 23:03 | <annevk> | Opera context menus at least have a concept of bold |
| 23:03 | <annevk> | select some text, right click, see under "search with" |
| 23:03 | <Clubbed> | webapp should be independent (but integrated in the os) |
| 23:04 | <Clubbed> | so if the need is a text-only label |
| 23:04 | <Clubbed> | the syntax should be |
| 23:04 | <annevk> | i could imagine that if we ever "replace" the OS people would want to experiment beyond somewhat old-fashioned limitations too |
| 23:04 | <Clubbed> | <label value="String" /> |
| 23:04 | <annevk> | but presumably you would not use <menu> then |
| 23:04 | <Clubbed> | so i can put icons around it |
| 23:05 | <TabAtkins> | Again, though, you don't see icons in right-click menus. They're just plain text strings. |
| 23:05 | <annevk> | Opera has icons in context menus |
| 23:05 | <TabAtkins> | Dammit, Opera! |
| 23:05 | <TabAtkins> | Why you gotta be complicating things. |
| 23:06 | <annevk> | we're full of win |
| 23:06 | <Clubbed> | they are not complicating |
| 23:06 | <Clubbed> | *complicated |
| 23:06 | <Clubbed> | fkg language difficulties xD |
| 23:07 | <Clubbed> | anyway tabatkins |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | annevk: i wouldn't look at Opera for UI advice. :-P |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | Clubbed: <menu> supports icons in context menus |
| 23:07 | <Clubbed> | yes but just only one |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | um yes |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | one per command |
| 23:07 | <Clubbed> | it's just an example of a limitation |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | what's the use case for more than one per command? |
| 23:08 | <Clubbed> | i dont need more icons, but i think visible content should be placed inside tags, not attributes |
| 23:09 | <Clubbed> | for a lot of reasons |
| 23:09 | <Clubbed> | if i want to style only the label="" |
| 23:09 | <Clubbed> | how i should do? |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | you can't style a context menu |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | it's an operating system widget |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | it's styled by the operating system |
| 23:10 | <Clubbed> | but is what designers want? |
| 23:10 | <Clubbed> | for example |
| 23:10 | <Clubbed> | facebook dropdown menus |
| 23:10 | <Hixie> | users are more important than designers, and users want their menus to be the same across all their applications |
| 23:10 | <Clubbed> | will use <menu> tag? |
| 23:11 | <Clubbed> | i think not |
| 23:11 | <Clubbed> | they will continue to use lists |
| 23:11 | <Clubbed> | or nav |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | hey does anyone recall whether <time> is supposed to get replaced by its contents? I can't figure out where we last discussed this. |
| 23:11 | <TabAtkins> | I won't. I'd shoot people, right in the face, if that's what it took to get an OS-native right-click menu in my webapps. |
| 23:12 | <Clubbed> | tabatkins |
| 23:12 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: ?_? You mean, like, converted automagically into the user's time settings? |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | man, TabAtkins must have missed the "Life of Don't Be Evil" class |
| 23:13 | <TabAtkins> | I did! o_O |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: i mean <time datetime="foo"></time> being turned into locale-specific rendering of foo |
| 23:13 | <Clubbed> | my os controls must appear exactly like os skin defined they |
| 23:14 | <Clubbed> | i'm talking about context menus on gmail, on facebook, on wave, and toolbars too |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: I don't recall discussions about this, but that would be great. |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | Clubbed: I'm also talking about those. |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | And I want them to look like a right-click menu. |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | Just like every single other application on my entire machine. |
| 23:16 | <TabAtkins> | I mean, I *actively desire* there to be no significant styling control of those things. Just like I don't want styling control of scrollbars. |
| 23:16 | <Clubbed> | ok, but is our "nerd" opinion, if you want to build an os-like application we can use xul, but "commercial" applications needs more styling and scripting features |
| 23:17 | <JonathanNeal> | BUT I WANNA MAK MA SCROLLBAHS PUPLE! |
| 23:17 | <Clubbed> | lolsdjfgsdf |
| 23:17 | <TabAtkins> | Apparently they don't. Commercial applications use ordinary right-click menus. And ordinary scrollbars. The *very* few that go out of their way to create custom versions of those are extremely annoying, though luckily quite rare. |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | annevk: do you recall the current state of the <time> thing by any chance? whether we decided to make it not localise or something? |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | the spec right now is inconsistent on the matter |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | and i can't work out if it's just that i missed something while adding it or while removing it |
| 23:19 | <Clubbed> | tabatkins i see a lot of custom widget that they can not be reproduced with html5 markup |
| 23:19 | <Clubbed> | for example on wpf |
| 23:19 | <Clubbed> | i see textboxes inside the contextmenu |
| 23:20 | <TabAtkins> | I've never seen such a thing in any application I've ever used. :shrug: |
| 23:21 | <Clubbed> | me too, but i use only notepad++ and eclipse lol so maybe my idea of an application is "limited" |
| 23:21 | <TabAtkins> | I use plenty, and speak as a web designer who likes making pretty things. |
| 23:23 | <Clubbed> | anyway, you are right, people can't change color of our scrollbars but they do, so they will do the same with context menus, they will never use <menu> |
| 23:24 | <Clubbed> | xhtml teachs to us how it works |
| 23:24 | <TabAtkins> | I can't parse what you just said. |
| 23:24 | <Clubbed> | i'm sorry |
| 23:24 | <TabAtkins> | People do use scrollbars. They're a basic part of UI. |
| 23:25 | <TabAtkins> | And people do use context menus. They're all over the place. The one place they're missing is in webapps. |
| 23:25 | <Clubbed> | people cannot change the color of my browser scrollbar, but they inevitably do, with scripts |
| 23:25 | <Clubbed> | or flash |
| 23:26 | <Clubbed> | and they will use scripts instead of <menu> |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | Very few people use scripts for context menus now. I doubt that will change. |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | Adding <menu> will make context menus super easy to make, so I think you'll see them a lot more. |
| 23:26 | <Hixie> | very few people restyle their scrollbars. some do, but not many. |
| 23:26 | <Hixie> | the same will apply to <menu>. |
| 23:26 | <Clubbed> | ... :| gmail does wave does everything on google does, social networks too |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | some will go out of their way to do special menus, but most will do the right thing and use the OS default |
| 23:27 | <TabAtkins> | Gmail doesn't. |
| 23:27 | <TabAtkins> | Some of the Google apps do, but they're not doing anything that can't be handled by <menu>. |
| 23:28 | <Clubbed> | exactly what i'm saying, developers will continue to use absolutely positioned divs |
| 23:28 | <Clubbed> | for emulate context menus |
| 23:28 | <TabAtkins> | That's the opposite of what I just said. I said that the Google apps that *do* use custom right-click menus can migrate to using <menu> without any problem. |
| 23:29 | <Clubbed> | lol |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | Clubbed: if your hypothesis was correct -- that is, if authors liked styling widgets so much that <menu> will fail -- then one could predict that authors would uniformly restyle scrollbars instead of using the default rendering for them |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | Clubbed: however, that prediction does not match reality |
| 23:30 | <Clubbed> | i'm sorry but you do not understand... google wave is new, it uses custom scrollbars |
| 23:30 | <Clubbed> | so |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | Clubbed: therefore the hypothesis is wrong |
| 23:30 | <TabAtkins> | Frex, take a look at Google Maps. Custom right-click menu. And yet, it has nothing but plain-text labels. |
| 23:30 | <Clubbed> | why did they not use os scrollbars? |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | Clubbed: now certainly, SOME pages will make custom scrollbars and custom menus and so forth, but that's fine |
| 23:30 | <Clubbed> | it's a commercial thing |
| 23:30 | <TabAtkins> | They could swap to <menu> immediately once it was supported widely enough. |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | Clubbed: the point is that MOST will not |
| 23:30 | <Clubbed> | exactly! |
| 23:31 | <Clubbed> | they could but they will not swap to <menu>! |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | Clubbed: MOST pages will just use the default menu, just like they use the default scrollbar |
| 23:31 | <Clubbed> | never! they want custom design! |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | who, the wave team? |
| 23:32 | <Clubbed> | everyone, included me |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | so why doesn't everyone do their own scrollbars? |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | (on a sidenote, i just hit r5000!) |
| 23:34 | <Clubbed> | just because script is hard to make |
| 23:34 | <TabAtkins> | Wave's custom scrollbars are *really weird* and very hard to use if there is a lot of overflow. I need to go complain at them. |
| 23:35 | <TabAtkins> | Clubbed: You don't need scripting to change the color of your scrollbars. IE supports some proprietary scrollbar CSS properties. |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | yeah it's actually pretty easy to change scrollbar colorus |
| 23:36 | <Clubbed> | the point is not this, i dont want to change my context menu style or scrollbar style, never |
| 23:36 | <Clubbed> | but |
| 23:37 | <Clubbed> | i think developers dont want to be limited |
| 23:37 | <Clubbed> | come on |
| 23:37 | <Clubbed> | the web is commercial |
| 23:37 | <Clubbed> | is not a desktop app |
| 23:37 | <Clubbed> | it must be controlled but not limited |
| 23:38 | <TabAtkins> | Developers not wanting to be limited is unimportant. Does it help or harm users? |
| 23:38 | <TabAtkins> | If it harms them, then it's out. |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | developers aren't limited here anyway, if they don't want their menus to look like native menus, they're welcome to write their own menus with script, css, and aria |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | just like they do today |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | the point of <menu> is specifically to let them use the default OS styles |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | to fit in better |
| 23:39 | <TabAtkins> | And it's probably not a good idea to defend things that you don't like anyway. You can come up with much better justifications if you personally want the change you're arguing for. |
| 23:40 | <Clubbed> | hixie |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | clubbed |
| 23:40 | <Clubbed> | if i want to use the default os style |
| 23:40 | <Clubbed> | i can use xul |
| 23:40 | <Clubbed> | embedded |
| 23:40 | <Clubbed> | with a namespace |
| 23:40 | <TabAtkins> | No you can't. |
| 23:40 | <Clubbed> | for example |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | you can also use <menu> |
| 23:41 | <TabAtkins> | Not in HTML, at least. Maybe some browsers let you embed XUL in XHTML, I dunno. |
| 23:41 | <Clubbed> | tabatkins im using html5 as xml with xul on firefox and it works good |
| 23:42 | <Clubbed> | with xhtml dtd obviously |
| 23:42 | <TabAtkins> | I don't want to use XML. And I want my websites to work outside of Firefox. |
| 23:43 | <Clubbed> | thats not the point! xD |
| 23:43 | <Clubbed> | anyway closed discussion |
| 23:43 | <TabAtkins> | Sure it is, since you just said that the way to have OS-native context menus is to use embedded XUL. |
| 23:45 | <Clubbed> | we will talk again in... five years? |
| 23:45 | <TabAtkins> | If you're trying to change the design of <menu>, 5 years from now will be too late. ^_^ |
| 23:45 | <Clubbed> | the prevision is: developers will continue to try to override default os controls |
| 23:46 | <Clubbed> | with custom divs and scripts and random shit |
| 23:46 | <TabAtkins> | I agree that some will. I think that the vast majority won't, because an OS-native display is either exactly what they want (to blend in with every other context menu the user sees on their machine) or is sufficient (because they just want the functionality, and don't care about the appearance as long as it's "good enough"). |
| 23:47 | <Clubbed> | but default functionality, predefined graphics and scripting should be override-able in some cases |
| 23:48 | <Clubbed> | i dont want to customize the style of the contextmenu |
| 23:48 | <TabAtkins> | The important question is, why should they? Sometimes there are good reasons to allow such, sometimes not. |
| 23:48 | <Clubbed> | i want to put two icons for each item! |
| 23:49 | <Clubbed> | i want to put a textfield inside my toolbar |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | Create a single image with both icons in it. |
| 23:49 | <Clubbed> | etc |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | Or, you know, don't. |
| 23:49 | <Clubbed> | lol, just examples |
| 23:49 | <Clubbed> | title="" is limited |
| 23:49 | <Clubbed> | developers uses hidden div |
| 23:50 | <Clubbed> | to markup tooltips |
| 23:50 | <TabAtkins> | I know you can come up with examples of what someone could *possibly* do with more freedom. That's unimportant. We need to know if it's *important* to be able to do something that is currently restricted. |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | i thought you said you didn't? <Clubbed> the point is not this, i dont want to change my context menu style or scrollbar style, never |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | i'm confused |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | do you want to change the style of <menu> ornot? |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | and if you do, what is the use case |
| 23:55 | <Clubbed> | hixie, i can use html5 with no problems without styling at all and without custom labels and icons |
| 23:56 | <Clubbed> | but a lot of people will |
| 23:56 | <Clubbed> | xhtml fails for this |
| 23:56 | <Clubbed> | so |
| 23:56 | <Clubbed> | html5 should be semantic |
| 23:56 | <Clubbed> | with no limitations |
| 23:56 | <Clubbed> | for example |
| 23:57 | <Clubbed> | if html5 do <scrollbar> |
| 23:57 | <Clubbed> | developers can use <scrollbar> to customize the look |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | the main problem i have with all that is the "a lot of people" part. What evidence do you have that it is a lot of people? |
| 23:58 | <Clubbed> | and UA can restrict by settings their styling |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | I contend that it is not al ot of people, and i put forward as evidence the fact that not many people style their scrollbars, even though doing so is easy. |
| 23:58 | <TabAtkins> | Thus the reason why I said you shouldn't argue for things that you don't, personally, want. Arguing for other people is always fraught with peril. |