| 00:01 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: I don't think XBL is at all essential to styling <progress> or <meter> |
| 00:01 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: pseudo-elements should cut it |
| 00:02 | <othermaciej> | certainly for <progress> and also for many common uses of <meter> |
| 00:02 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, pseudo-elements can handle simple styling. But if you want more advanced styles, like what canvas or svg can provide, then XBL is better |
| 00:03 | <Lachy> | CSS with pseudos can basically handle colours, backgrounds, borders and sizes. I would consider much beyond that to be more advanced styles. |
| 00:05 | <Lachy> | I wonder how CSS transitions would interact with <progress> and <meter> psuedo-elements, if you could use them to specify how to transition between state changes. |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: i replied to julian |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | woot, i reached zero unread e-mails for the first time since monday! |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | so, where was i wish timed tracks |
| 00:27 | <theMadness> | Lachy, progress and meter *pseudo* elements? |
| 00:28 | <tabatkins> | theMadness: Pseudos within the progress/meter. |
| 00:28 | <tabatkins> | So like progress::complete or something. |
| 00:28 | <theMadness> | Got it. |
| 00:29 | <Lachy> | theMadness, to be clear, pseudo-element selectors for use in CSS |
| 00:29 | <theMadness> | Somthing a la meter::stepping allowing us to determine how to transition between states might do it. |
| 00:29 | <theMadness> | Something a la meter::stepping allowing us to determine how to transition between states might actually prove quite useful. |
| 00:32 | <theMadness> | Actually I said meter but I was thinking progress. |
| 00:32 | <Lachy> | theMadness, would probably be done more like progress::complete { transition: width 1s linear; } |
| 00:33 | <theMadness> | I'm not arguing the syntax, I'll let you experts fight it out. :) But all in all it can (could) be very useful. |
| 00:34 | <tabatkins> | And with a "width: calc( attr(value,number) / attr(max,number) * 100% )" rule or similar. |
| 00:35 | <Lachy> | tabatkins, I assume the width would be handled by the UA stylesheet |
| 00:35 | <Lachy> | or other mechanism. |
| 00:35 | <tabatkins> | Well, yeah. But if it's in CSS, it would be with a rule like that in the UA stylesheet. |
| 00:35 | <tabatkins> | Or else magic, yeah. |
| 00:36 | <Lachy> | Doesn't make much sense to allow authors to overriide that with CSS themselves, cause then they could use that to represent different states, rather than changing the element's attributes |
| 00:36 | <theMadness> | Yet we should be allowed to mess with it, isn't that the purpose of the whole thing? Like having a meter that fills using a background image positioning, or an opacity thing... |
| 00:36 | <tabatkins> | They can do that with the XBL bindings to canvas. You won't really be stopping anything. |
| 00:36 | <theMadness> | Or font size... |
| 00:37 | <tabatkins> | And nod, there are decent cases for using more than a changing width to represent completion. |
| 00:38 | <Lachy> | if it's being represented as a bar, as it would by default, then I can't see anything but the width being used. |
| 00:38 | <tabatkins> | Vertical bar is the simplest counter-example. |
| 00:39 | <Lachy> | If it were altered to be a circular gauge, like a pressure gauge with a needle, then it would obviously not use width either. But that's something to be handled with SVG/canvas/XBL |
| 00:39 | <tabatkins> | Pfft. You can totally do that with transforms. |
| 00:40 | <theMadness> | But it would lose all the semantic weight. |
| 00:40 | <Lachy> | meter and progress should probably inherit the same magic as <input type=range> for switching between horizontal and vertical bars |
| 00:40 | <tabatkins> | theMadness: No, doing the rendering with canvas/svg/etc doesn't harm the meaning of the <progress> itself. |
| 00:40 | <theMadness> | Uhm, what would the syntax edn up being? |
| 00:41 | <theMadness> | *end |
| 00:41 | <Lachy> | theMadness, the semantics would be on the <meter> element in the HTML markup. XBL is a technology that allows you do bind a template to an element, like meter, which can then have the appearance of replacing it with something more customised |
| 00:42 | <tabatkins> | With <canvas>, you can put <progress> as a child. Or you can use XBL to bind an entirely different CSS tree to it. |
| 00:42 | <Lachy> | XBL isn't implemented by any browser yet though, it has been planned for a long time |
| 00:42 | <sicking> | Lachy, i'm working on it ;) |
| 00:42 | <Lachy> | hurry up! |
| 00:42 | <sicking> | that's actually almost true today |
| 00:42 | <sicking> | i'll be working on it next week in fact |
| 00:42 | sicking | is excited |
| 00:42 | <tabatkins> | Yay! |
| 00:43 | <theMadness> | sicking which UA? |
| 00:43 | <tabatkins> | ff |
| 00:43 | <sicking> | theMadness: Firefox |
| 00:43 | sicking | works for mozilla |
| 00:43 | <theMadness> | Nice. |
| 00:43 | <Lachy> | sicking, when do you expect to have experimental build available? |
| 00:43 | <theMadness> | As a gesture of goodwill I shall scold tabatkins for using the wrong abbreviation. It's FX, foo! |
| 00:44 | <tabatkins> | Correctness is democratic. ff has been the right abbreviation for a long time, according to the people. |
| 00:44 | <theMadness> | Yeah but I'm trying to score points here. :) |
| 00:45 | <Hixie> | man i just can't get over how many fricking subtitle formats there are |
| 00:46 | <theMadness> | And how none of them is smil. |
| 00:46 | <tabatkins> | I'm honestly surprised too, considering that every new format needs someone to support it. I'm guessing there are a lot of formats only accepted by a single consumer. |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | these formats are so similar that there's some tools that just have text files that define how to parse a lot of them |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | q.v. http://subtitleproc.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/subtitleproc/SubtitleProcessor/data/ |
| 00:49 | <tabatkins> | Yay I get to buy a bike tomorrow morning! Woo! |
| 00:49 | tabatkins | is excited about bikes. |
| 00:50 | Hixie | recommends a hybrid with hardcase tires |
| 00:50 | <tabatkins> | I'm getting hardcase tires. Hybrid? |
| 00:50 | <Hixie> | kind of a cross between a road bike and a mountain bike |
| 00:51 | <tabatkins> | Why would I need more than just a road bike? I really don't intend to go biking in non-urban environments. |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | mountain view is a non-urban environment |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | in terms of what bikes expect |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | you got pot holes, glass on the floor, tree roots, all kinds of crap |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | hybrids are often also termed "commutter bikes" |
| 00:53 | <tabatkins> | Well, the one I've got my eyes on is a narrow wheel, though not the blade-looking wheels you say on racing bikes. |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | (though possibly spelt correctly) |
| 00:54 | <tabatkins> | s/say/see/ |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | yeah hybrids are narower than mountain bikes and wider than racing bikes |
| 00:55 | <tabatkins> | All right, then that's what I'm getting. ^_^ When I talked to the salesman guy, I specifically noted that I'll be using it for commuting. |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | http://bicycling.about.com/od/howtoride/a/hybrids.htm |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | one difference is the handlebars on a hybrid are like those on a mountain bike, straight, rather than the rounded ones of road bikes |
| 00:56 | <tabatkins> | Yeah, that's definitely what I'm getting. |
| 00:56 | <tabatkins> | Basically it just looks like a mountain bike with narrow wheels. |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | excellent |
| 00:57 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 00:57 | <tabatkins> | Walt's Cycles was a good recommendation, btw. |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | cool, glad i could help |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | oh my, I've just found a format that makes TTML look positively simple in comparison |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | http://guliverkli2.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/guliverkli2/src/subtitles/libssf/demo/demo.ssf |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | so far i think i can categorise most subtitle formats into one of four categories |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | 1. too trivial to be useful |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | 2. simple |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | 3. far too complicated |
| 01:21 | <boogyman> | what's the purpose of ttml? |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | 4. ludicrously complicated |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | most fall into either #1 or #2 |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | ssf is the only one in #4 so far |
| 01:22 | <tabatkins> | Oh, wow, that is definitely a #4. |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | boogyman: subtitles |
| 01:25 | <tabatkins> | Also, thumbs up on the engineer headphones. |
| 01:26 | <tabatkins> | I've gotten far too used to my decade-old gameboy earphones. |
| 02:02 | <lazni> | has anyone tested the html5 doctype on obscure mobile phones? |
| 02:04 | <boblet> | lazni: I will be later this month (Japanese phones), but haven’t yet |
| 02:04 | <lazni> | boblet: TIA, I'm just making sure it's compatible there |
| 02:05 | <boblet> | given how crap their browsers generally are (cHTML), and how rapid the turnover is, and how iPhone really shook things up over here, I’m not too worried about it though |
| 02:05 | <lazni> | 'k |
| 02:05 | <lazni> | cHTML? crapHTML? |
| 02:05 | <lazni> | =) |
| 02:06 | <boblet> | cHTML sites are basically web pre-tables. text formatting and images, baby, with <hr> for hawtness |
| 02:06 | <boblet> | compact, but may as well be |
| 02:06 | <lazni> | wow, I'm not old enough to know about cHTML |
| 02:07 | boblet | wishes there was a min-font-size property |
| 02:07 | <tabatkins> | boblet: What are you trying to do? |
| 02:08 | <boblet> | tabatkins: I’ve hacked bopomofo rendering together to demonstrate for an article on ruby, but due to browser font-size minimums if the base text isn’t huge the bopomofo pops out |
| 02:09 | <tabatkins> | And you can't just set "ruby { font-size: foo; }" |
| 02:09 | <tabatkins> | ? |
| 02:09 | <boblet> | Trying to do this, but with ltr text : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo#Writing |
| 02:10 | <boblet> | tabatkins: you presuppose decent browser support for ruby :| |
| 02:10 | <boblet> | no one has tackled bopomofo — it’s an i18n train wreck |
| 02:11 | <boblet> | the CSS3 ruby module passes the buck to the OS |
| 02:11 | <tabatkins> | Well, true. But hacking CSS to get around bad ruby support seems like a waste of time, when you could equally spend effort getting proper ruby support. ^_^ |
| 02:11 | <boblet> | and no one even implemented it |
| 02:11 | <tabatkins> | I think Ishida is taking on the Ruby module? |
| 02:11 | <theMadness> | lazni, if anyone has the tools to do it, it's ppk. Maybe send him a shout? |
| 02:12 | <lazni> | theMadness: true |
| 02:12 | <boblet> | tabatkins: that presupposes I had the skillz to help ;) writing about it is the best I can do |
| 02:12 | <boblet> | yeah I need to email Richard |
| 02:12 | <theMadness> | We might get a good, informative piece about it. |
| 02:13 | <boblet> | tabatkins: writing for html5doctor on ruby so want to demonstrate bopomofo, and given zero browser support I thought I’d hack it rather than using a design app |
| 02:13 | <boblet> | no idea how to reorder inline blocksfor Korean though |
| 02:14 | <boblet> | need to swap the order of base text and ruby text |
| 02:15 | <tabatkins> | Hrm. Asain writing modes are complex. |
| 02:16 | tabatkins | heads out for the weekend. |
| 02:16 | <boblet> | lol |
| 02:16 | <boblet> | if anyone is interested here’s bopomofo via font-size and vertical-align: http://oli-studio.com/temp/bopomofo.png |
| 02:17 | <boblet> | Hixie: you’d like that phrase btw ;-) |
| 02:17 | <boblet> | (applied with lots of spans) |
| 02:18 | <theMadness> | That brings me back (I grew up on a steady diet of violent anime) |
| 02:19 | <boblet> | theMadness: hehe. Chinese anime? |
| 02:19 | <theMadness> | Nope, mostly fist of the north star. |
| 02:19 | <boblet> | theMadness: check this: http://redsungamer.com/index.php/site/fotns-taunt-kills/ |
| 02:20 | <boblet> | should take you back :) |
| 02:20 | <theMadness> | Yeah, also God Hand had a very similar style. |
| 02:20 | <theMadness> | With a thick tongue-in-cheek undertone, yet. |
| 02:29 | <boblet> | ooh interesting! absolute font sizes do scale to illegible — minimum font size only respected for relative |
| 02:30 | <boblet> | (Chrome) |
| 02:31 | <boblet> | also seems to change % vertical-align distances |
| 02:54 | <Hixie> | i present to you: the longest list of subtitle formats ever written on the internet (as far as I am aware): |
| 02:54 | <Hixie> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_track_formats |
| 02:55 | boblet | applauds Hixie’s ocd-level dedication |
| 02:55 | <boblet> | that’s a list, all right |
| 02:55 | <boblet> | yikes |
| 02:55 | <Hixie> | if anyone can out-google-fu my attempts at finding information about the sections marked "Couldn't find a specification for this format" or the like, please let me know |
| 02:55 | <Hixie> | consider it a challenge |
| 02:55 | <Hixie> | i'm looking for, in order of preference: |
| 02:55 | <Hixie> | 1. formal specs |
| 02:55 | <Hixie> | 2. word-of-mouth specs |
| 02:56 | <Hixie> | 3. examples files |
| 02:56 | <Hixie> | 4. rumours |
| 02:57 | <boblet> | Hixie: any Japanese ones? I might have luck there |
| 02:57 | <Hixie> | no idea, that's the problem :-) |
| 02:57 | <boblet> | har |
| 02:57 | <boblet> | will check :) |
| 02:58 | <Hixie> | thanks :-) |
| 03:09 | <boblet> | Hixie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_Markup_Language ? |
| 03:18 | <boblet> | spec name is ARIB STD-B24. ARIB is the Association of Radio Industries and Businesses http://www.arib.or.jp/english/index.html |
| 03:28 | <boblet> | just skimmed “STRUCTURE AND OPERATION OF CLOSED CAPTION DATA CONVEYED BY ANCILLARY DATA PACKETS, ARIB STANDARD, ARIB STD-B37 VERSION 2.4-E1” … water … someone [gasp] |
| 03:44 | <theMadness> | wth is #ih5? |
| 03:47 | <miketaylr> | looks like it's a hashtag for @rem and @brucel's introducing html5 book |
| 03:48 | <Hixie> | boblet: is that a subtitle-related format? |
| 03:49 | <boblet> | Hixie: it seems there’s an XHTML-based format for subtitles in there, but the specs are somewhat … obtuse |
| 03:49 | <boblet> | <!DOCTYPE bml PUBLIC "-//ARIB//DTD BML x.y//JA" http://www.arib.or.jp/B24/DTD/bml_x_y.dtd">; (dtd is 404) |
| 03:49 | <boblet> | should have something worth showing you soon… |
| 03:50 | <boblet> | me curses PDFs |
| 03:50 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 03:58 | <boblet> | I just _love_ 100+ page specs which jump from DTDs to memory addressing |
| 03:58 | <boblet> | woops, my mistake. *1000+* page specs |
| 04:03 | <boblet> | in an alternate universe which recreates a modified subset pretty much the entire web stack. a scary alternate universe |
| 04:26 | <boblet> | Hixie: I give up. the Japanese digital TV standard ARIB STD-B24 appears to encode captions using an XML-based modified version of XHTML, but I can’t find any y’know examples. |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | boblet: well that's a start... can you add a section to that page just mentioning that? |
| 04:27 | <boblet> | Hixie: http://www.arib.or.jp/english/html/overview/doc/6-STD-B24v5_2-1p3-E1.pdf Part 3 of this PDF (PDF page 157, written as p139) has TOC for “Coding of caption and superimpose” section |
| 04:27 | <Hixie> | it's more than i have for some of the others! |
| 04:28 | <boblet> | ohh believe me, in this case it may not be a good thing |
| 04:29 | <Hixie> | why not? |
| 04:30 | <boblet> | Hixie: http://www.arib.or.jp/english/html/overview/doc/6-STD-B24v5_2-2p3-2-E1.pdf Appendix 1 (PDF page 13) defines the operational guidelines of B-XML documents |
| 04:30 | <boblet> | in a word, verbiage |
| 04:31 | <Hixie> | well i added it |
| 04:31 | <Hixie> | "XML-based" is all i wrote :-) |
| 04:32 | <theMadness> | boblet, I can't tell you how unsettling is the combination of "human centered" and the image of huge knives. |
| 04:32 | <boblet> | it’s basically an entire browser spec; XHTML-based custom XML, subset of CSS |
| 04:32 | <theMadness> | I mean here http://oli-studio.com/images/knives.jpg |
| 04:32 | <boblet> | theMadness: har! |
| 04:32 | <boblet> | I really need to do something about that huh |
| 04:32 | <boblet> | http://oli.jp/ is the one I’ve actually updated since … 2005 |
| 04:32 | <boblet> | :X |
| 04:32 | <boblet> | woops |
| 04:33 | <Hixie> | the stuff in part 3 seems to be a binary format |
| 04:33 | <boblet> | I guess :| then |
| 04:33 | <theMadness> | Backtracked it from the image you posted earlier. |
| 04:33 | <nessy> | are you looking at binary formats, too Hixie? |
| 04:33 | <Hixie> | i'm looking at everything |
| 04:34 | <nessy> | oh! |
| 04:34 | <nessy> | you got EBU then? |
| 04:34 | <Hixie> | Under "EBU STL" I just have "Couldn't find a specification for this format. Appears to be a binary format." :-) |
| 04:34 | <nessy> | standard on European TV |
| 04:34 | <boblet> | Hixie: huh. well I have no idea what this exquisitely detailed spec is actually for then. great detail in the definition, but what does it mean? |
| 04:34 | <Hixie> | boblet: yeah beats me |
| 04:35 | <nessy> | ah - I think I might have a copy floating around - it's binary and it's covered by some standard body you have to pay for the spec |
| 04:36 | <Hixie> | well that's pretty much all we need to know, so good :-) |
| 04:36 | <Hixie> | boblet: i changed it to "Apparently XML-based and/or binary based. Unclear. Appears to be rather complicated." :-) |
| 04:36 | <boblet> | lol |
| 04:36 | <Hixie> | nessy: i haven't seen any reason to use a binary format, so i doubt we'll use one; i'm just trying to be thorough |
| 04:36 | <boblet> | thank science I found the English translation — was looking at the Japanese version to start with >_< |
| 04:37 | <boblet> | aargh! |
| 04:37 | <nessy> | Hixie: glad about that! |
| 04:37 | <boblet> | that is not the emoticon you are searching for |
| 04:37 | <nessy> | binary doesn't make sense in the Web context |
| 04:37 | <Hixie> | not for this kind of thing, no |
| 04:38 | <Hixie> | boblet: was the japanese one no clearer? |
| 04:39 | <boblet> | Hixie: pretty direct translation, so for me the Japanese one was just scary |
| 04:39 | <boblet> | so is the English one actually, so even more scary ;-) |
| 04:39 | <nessy> | just came across this list of subtitle formats - http://autocaption.com/resource_specifications_format_list.html <- scarily long! |
| 04:40 | <Hixie> | holy cow, they have a longer list than i do! |
| 04:40 | <Hixie> | ok to be fair their list is kind of a lie |
| 04:40 | <Hixie> | e.g. PAC and RAC are essentially the same |
| 04:40 | <Hixie> | yet they list them separately |
| 04:40 | <boblet> | nessy wins the internets! |
| 04:41 | <nessy> | unfortunately that list is useless without links to specs |
| 04:42 | <boblet> | Hixie: looks like STD-B24 is multimedia (including captions) ”The Appendix 2 contains the operational guidelines for implementing basic services by using the XML-based multimedia coding scheme specification responsible for the data broadcasting scheme” |
| 04:42 | <boblet> | so HDTV with whatever you want overlaid |
| 04:44 | <nessy> | archive.org is awesome - here's the spec of EBU STL: http://web.archive.org/web/20060927230537/http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/tec_doc_t3264_tcm6-10528.pdf |
| 04:45 | <boblet> | also for sending to mobile phones with 1-seg (digital tv for mobile phones), over the net (I guess for net TV) |
| 04:45 | <nessy> | I once implemented a parser for it - it's not very difficult |
| 04:46 | <nessy> | it includes italics, underline and boxing for styling - no bold |
| 04:46 | <nessy> | very basic |
| 04:46 | <boblet> | Hixie: if you need more detail on this, ping me in a week and I’ll call them. It’d be the fastest way to find out a sample subtitle doc (public holiday until Thurs tho) |
| 04:47 | <boblet> | Hixie: more useful page refs in 6-STD-B24v5_2-2p3-2-E1.pdf… |
| 04:47 | <nessy> | that's a along public holiday! |
| 04:48 | <Hixie> | boblet: nah, i think we have all we need on that one, thanks |
| 04:48 | <boblet> | p187 BML element subset of XHTML |
| 04:48 | <boblet> | p195 BML CSS2 properties subset |
| 04:48 | <boblet> | aah ok |
| 04:48 | <boblet> | hth eh :) |
| 04:49 | <Hixie> | indeed, thanks! |
| 04:53 | <theMadness> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/ is getting cuter by the day. |
| 04:55 | <boblet> | nessy: that’s why they call it *Golden* week ;-) |
| 04:56 | <nessy> | can I have Golden Week, too, plz thx |
| 04:56 | <nessy> | (you just need to find an appropriate lol-cat for it ;) |
| 05:03 | <theMadness> | Finding a japanese cat with a golden coin shouldn't be too hard. |
| 05:05 | <boblet> | Hixie: one page down on http://www.urusoft.net/products.php?cat=vp&lang=1 |
| 05:05 | <boblet> | “59 supported formats” |
| 05:09 | <boblet> | also http://www.eztitles.com/index.php?page=48 and http://captionmax.com/services/tape-delivery-formats/ |
| 05:09 | <boblet> | gotta eat now, sorry :) |
| 05:17 | <boblet> | DVD Maestro (now obsolete) used Maestro (.son/.spf) image-based subtitles apparently. here’s a code snippet: http://www.xucker.jpn.org/extension/son.html |
| 05:17 | <boblet> | another one to add to the other formats list |
| 06:09 | <wycats> | Hixie: http://yehudakatz.com/2010/04/30/the-web-doesnt-suck-browsers-are-innovating |
| 06:09 | <wycats> | http://twitter.com/joehewitt/status/13172424641 |
| 06:28 | <kennyluck> | boblet, I am interested in the bopomofo thing, since I am a Taiwanese. Is there any thing I can help? |
| 06:32 | <boblet> | kennyluck: I’d be really interested in examples of content on the web using bopomofo, especially if it uses ruby |
| 06:33 | <boblet> | kennyluck: apart from that some photos of bopomofo in real life would be great, to get an idea of typical formatting |
| 06:33 | <kennyluck> | boblet, I asked this question to my Chinese friends once, but I am afraid there might be no examples. |
| 06:33 | <boblet> | kennyluck: did you see the screenshot I posted? any mistakes? |
| 06:33 | <kennyluck> | Hmm... I can certainly get some pictures. |
| 06:34 | <kennyluck> | Yes, well not presentational ones, but a logical one. |
| 06:34 | <boblet> | please tell me |
| 06:34 | <kennyluck> | The characters are in simplified Chinese, where bopomofo is usually for traditional Chinese. :) |
| 06:34 | <boblet> | (it’s hard to make examples in a language you don’t understand ;-) ) |
| 06:35 | <kennyluck> | boblet |
| 06:35 | <boblet> | can you tell me the traditional Chinese characters? also is the bopomofo correct? |
| 06:36 | <kennyluck> | Hmm... the traditional character for the third one is 無 |
| 06:36 | <kennyluck> | Also, I guess usually the bopomofo would be vertically aligned. |
| 06:37 | <kennyluck> | I mean, for example, the bopomofo for the fifth character should be put down a little bit, so that it's in the middle, boblet. |
| 06:38 | <boblet> | kennyluck: damn, I thought you might say that :) |
| 06:38 | <kennyluck> | :) |
| 06:38 | <boblet> | wow, surprised 無 became 无 |
| 06:38 | <kennyluck> | huh? what do you mean, boblet? |
| 06:39 | <kennyluck> | Are you using piying for typing, maybe? |
| 06:39 | <boblet> | “the traditional character for the third one is 無” ? you mean 无 → 無 right? |
| 06:39 | <kennyluck> | Yup |
| 06:40 | <boblet> | kennyluck: no, c&p from http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Chinese_proverbs |
| 06:40 | <kennyluck> | Ah, I see. Simplified Chinese is much more popular obviously. |
| 06:44 | <kennyluck> | boblet, a picture of a children newspaper in Taiwan: http://wss.djes.tp.edu.tw/report/Lists/Photos/951222%E5%9C%8B%E8%AA%9E%E6%97%A5%E5%A0%B1/%E5%9C%8B%E8%AA%9E%E6%97%A5%E5%A0%B1.jpg |
| 06:45 | <kennyluck> | Unlike in Japan, bopomofo is for children, so there would rarely be any examples. |
| 06:47 | <boblet> | updated pic http://oli-studio.com/temp/bopomofo.png looking ok now? |
| 06:47 | <Traveler8> | hi |
| 06:47 | <Traveler8> | Is it ok if I use a heading inside an ul? |
| 06:47 | <boblet> | Traveler8: only if it’s inside a li element |
| 06:47 | <Traveler8> | like <ul><h2>title</h2><li>some text</li></ul> |
| 06:48 | <Traveler8> | so then I have to use a <p> for the other li? |
| 06:48 | <kennyluck> | oops, sorry again, boble, but 难 → 難. The alignment looks great! |
| 06:48 | <kennyluck> | boblet |
| 06:48 | <boblet> | Traveler8: nope. split your lists and put headings between, make ‘rich’ list items (eg <li><h2>…</h2><p>…</p></li>) or nest lists |
| 06:49 | <Traveler8> | i see |
| 06:49 | <Traveler8> | yeah that makes a lot of sense |
| 06:49 | <boblet> | Traveler8: be wary of using lists for formatting though. start by looking at your content and deciding what each piece is. work out styling/CSS *after* markup |
| 06:49 | <boblet> | kennyluck: thanks… |
| 06:52 | <boblet> | kennyluck: btw I’d say that furigana is for kids too, as there aren’t many kanji outside the 3000~ recommended ones used in mainstream media. although no argument that Chinese readers can definitely claim superiority in the kanji reading dept ;-) |
| 06:53 | <Traveler8> | what if i use <ul><h2></h2><li></li></ul> |
| 06:53 | <boblet> | kennyluck: ok, final check please! |
| 06:53 | <boblet> | Traveler8: you said that already |
| 06:53 | <Traveler8> | oh right lol |
| 06:53 | <Traveler8> | sorry |
| 06:53 | <boblet> | alternately try it and c&p into a validator |
| 06:54 | <kennyluck> | boblet, perfect now. |
| 06:54 | <boblet> | kennyluck: sweet. any larger examples of bopomofo? eg kids’ flashcards or something… ideally something culturally cool like a popular manga or something |
| 06:55 | <kennyluck> | boblet, I simply wanted to say I would never see a bopomofo on a newspaper or a novel, so the need for ruby is little. But sometimes you still see furigana in a novel if the character's name is too unusual. |
| 06:55 | <kennyluck> | Hmm.. |
| 06:55 | <boblet> | kennyluck: true true |
| 06:56 | <kennyluck> | I can't remember seeing bopomofo on a manga. |
| 06:56 | <boblet> | my pinyin example is talking about Grass Mud Horse (草泥馬) so I’d prefer to not be too boring with bopomofo ;-) |
| 06:56 | <kennyluck> | Is that a child story? I am not to familiar with all the literature stuff :) |
| 06:57 | <kennyluck> | s/to/that/ |
| 06:57 | <boblet> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_mud_horse (a little texturally NSFW) |
| 06:58 | <kennyluck> | lol, I see what this is now. Mainland Chinsese people are certainly creative. |
| 06:59 | <boblet> | oh gotta go. bbl — kennyluck leave anything for me and I’ll check when I get back (ruby article to publish on http://html5doctor.com soon) |
| 06:59 | <kennyluck> | Ok, cool! |
| 06:59 | <boblet> | kennyluck: lol. indeed! |
| 07:07 | <kennyluck> | boblet, I am a bit interested in how ruby deals with the case that you use bopomofo for writing and not just for annotating Chinese characters. Such as in http://pic.pimg.tw/hinlin/4b2f1500b2a23.jpg |
| 07:09 | <kennyluck> | I mean, is there ruby use case for *grouping* characters. Japanese and Chinese don't use space for splitting character groups, you know. |
| 07:45 | <boblet> | kennyluck: interesting—hadn’t thought of that, as Japanese (what I’m familiar with) generally separates by the change from kanji to kana. Japanese childrens’ books with no kanji separate hiragana words using spaces |
| 07:45 | <boblet> | kennyluck: also I think your use case is probably not applicable for ruby, as ruby is about annotating base text with ruby text, and if you only use bopomofo there’s not base/ruby text distinction |
| 07:47 | <boblet> | kennyluck: if you can please tell me more about what you’d like to do for grouping characters, how you’d use it, and give some links to examples of this ‘in the wild’ (if possible) |
| 07:54 | <kennyluck> | boblet, well, huh, I am not familiar with Ruby, just wonder whether this will be a use case so that the space separating words would be automatically generated by a custom CSS style sheet or something. |
| 07:56 | <boblet> | kennyluck: the easiest way would be using the space bar to add spaces ;-) |
| 07:56 | <kennyluck> | :) |
| 07:57 | <kennyluck> | boblet, I agree with you (ref. this is irrelevant to Ruby). But...what about the character for annotating pronunciation in bopomofo? I thought this is a case for double ruby? |
| 07:58 | <kennyluck> | Or complex ruby is the right term? |
| 07:58 | <boblet> | if we only have kanji and bopomofo then simple ruby should be enough |
| 08:00 | <boblet> | if we have kanji, bopomofo and pinyin then nested simple ruby will probably be enough |
| 08:01 | <boblet> | atm the only thing complex ruby would help with is Korean, which has ruby text *before* base text, and base text is in brackets (opposite to normal) |
| 08:06 | <boblet> | kennyluck: does that sound good? or is there something else you want to do? |
| 08:07 | <kennyluck> | boblet, I am now investigating into the CSS writing-mode attribute to see how it looks if all the characters are bopomofo. |
| 08:08 | <kennyluck> | And the writing-mode vertical. |
| 08:08 | <boblet> | kennyluck: only works in IE. IE8 is best |
| 08:08 | <kennyluck> | OK, gave up. I am in Mac osX. |
| 08:08 | <kennyluck> | sigh. |
| 08:09 | <boblet> | kennyluck: still, nice that IE actually supports something eh :) |
| 08:09 | <boblet> | kennyluck: but if you have comments on how you think it *should* work, that would be good too! |
| 08:10 | <kennyluck> | Yeah, I think MS people do care about the those i18 stuff. MSDN pages are always language content negotiate able. |
| 08:10 | <kennyluck> | Don't know, I have to make examples to see how messy it is if all the characters are bopomofo |
| 08:11 | <kennyluck> | Well, it's irrelevant to Ruby, I suppose. |
| 08:12 | <kennyluck> | I thought the tone mark was made by Ruby annotation, but it's not, it seems. |
| 08:12 | <kennyluck> | I mean, alignment of the tone mark. |
| 08:12 | <boblet> | kennyluck: that screenshot was faked using CSS |
| 08:12 | <kennyluck> | Note: The Bopomofo transcription is written in the normal way as part of the ruby text. The user agent is responsible for ensuring the correct relative alignment and positioning of the glyphs, including those corresponding to the tone marks, when displaying as vertical ruby. ( from w3c CSS3 ruby module) |
| 08:13 | <boblet> | yep, that’s one of the issues W3 Style WG was having problems with |
| 08:14 | <boblet> | OSes don’t provide that framework atm, and it’s a lot for a UA to provide |
| 08:14 | <boblet> | afaik |
| 08:35 | <theMadness> | Sigh, hbo still does browser sniffing. |
| 08:36 | <Lachy> | Sigh. :-( http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/04/30/237238/Steve-Jobs-Hints-At-Theora-Lawsuit |
| 08:39 | <theMadness> | It's the png/gif debacle all over again. |
| 08:40 | <Lachy> | yeah, but significantly worse if any comes of it |
| 08:40 | <Lachy> | At least with GIF, IIRC, the patents only covered the encoding process, which is why browsers could ship the GIF decoders |
| 08:42 | <theMadness> | And with video people is probably willing to host 2 copies of the encoding. |
| 08:43 | <theMadness> | Possibly both the formats will be in the spec as recommendations. |
| 08:46 | <Lachy> | http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/04/html5-video-in-internet-explorer-9-h264-and-h264-alone.ars |
| 08:46 | <theMadness> | Windows 7 already has some sort of support for it. |
| 08:47 | <theMadness> | Nice summary article tho. |
| 08:49 | <theMadness> | but there's nothing preventing Google from producing a VP8 plugin for Media Foundation, for example. -- heck, they did chrome frame, that should be a cakewalk in comparison. |
| 08:53 | <theMadness> | Also, h264 needs a way more marketable name. |
| 08:53 | <theMadness> | It sounds like a very weird strand of influenza. |
| 09:00 | <nessy> | Theora's name is not much better ;) |
| 09:00 | <theMadness> | At least I can remember that. :/ |
| 09:01 | <nessy> | but honestly - I don't understand how Steve Jobs can stand up and honestly declare there is a patent pool being put together against Theora, unless he is part of it or knows of something happening - unless of course it's MPEG-LA putting the pool together - that would be active combat then opposed to FUD only - I doubt they will actually go there - might lose them their FUD advantage! |
| 13:34 | <Dashiva> | "With the adoption of RDFa, we're seeing a very sharp up-tick in the use of xmlns: and Facebook has furthered this by requiring the "fb" namespace in Facebook application markup." |
| 13:34 | <Dashiva> | Why don't we just make prefixes significant already... |
| 13:43 | <Lachy> | nessy, I wouldn't underestimate the greed and anti-competitive goals of the MPEG-LA. It's their goal to ensure that their codecs are the most widely used, and to stifle innovation and prevent competition in any way they can. |
| 13:43 | <Lachy> | I'm quite sure that the members are searching through their patent portfolios to do anything they can to prevent competition from Theora |
| 13:44 | <nessy> | sure, but I haven't seen MPEG-LA themselves attacking ppl - they are mostly there to collect licensing fees |
| 13:44 | <nessy> | royalties |
| 13:47 | <Lachy> | I expect that's what they plan to do with Theora too, if they put together a patent pool |
| 13:48 | <Dashiva> | Goalposts shifting at the speed of a CPU... |
| 13:48 | <Lachy> | though, it really depends on so many factors and the validity of the patents could be in question, if the In re Bilski supreme court case comes back with the only sensible verdict against software patents |
| 13:48 | <Dashiva> | "These new elements won't be implemented" becomes "They don't do anything useful anyway" returning to "We don't need them because of script libraries" |
| 13:50 | <Dashiva> | It's like that story of the borrowed kettle |
| 13:50 | <Lachy> | what story of the borrowed kettle? |
| 13:51 | <Dashiva> | (1) I never borrowed a kettle from you, (2) I returned it to you unbroken, (3) the kettle was already broken when I got it from you. |
| 14:01 | <Dashiva> | What is the sound of progress not happening? |
| 14:43 | <nessy> | Lachy: Theora is not the same as MPEG codecs - the MPEG codecs are deliberately developed to include patents from companies and at the end companies put up their hand to claim their stake already knowing they have their stuff in it; a Theora patent pool developed by MPEG-LA would require companies to care enough to determine that Theora actually uses their patents, then get together with other companies to agree on a patent pool; this would ne |
| 16:09 | <boblet> | anyone involved in Webkit awake? I have a ruby implementation question (what’s the magic sauce) |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | 1400 packages |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | mu |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | 619... |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | prolly not gonna see the end of this before tomorrow |
| 16:59 | <annevk> | nn |
| 21:59 | <Dashiva> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Apr/0031.html |
| 21:59 | <Dashiva> | Is this the third time? |
| 22:16 | <annevk> | o_O |
| 22:16 | <annevk> | Ubuntu is installed by the way, not really any noticeable change |
| 22:16 | <annevk> | although the initial reboot completely failed and it seemed that everything would have been broken |
| 22:17 | <annevk> | but powering down and powering up helped with that |
| 22:17 | <annevk> | not very impressive |
| 22:18 | <danbri> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpmLrz_lSuE |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | oh wow |
| 22:20 | <annevk> | my iPod touch works |
| 22:22 | <annevk> | means I can finally extract my music Apple had trapped there |
| 22:22 | <annevk> | win |
| 22:22 | <annevk> | and prolly put new stuff on it too |
| 22:27 | <annevk2> | hmm, connection just dropped while playing with Ubuntu One |
| 22:27 | <annevk2> | Ubuntu One doesn't seem very good... searching for e.g. "dr dre" gives you a picture of 2001 as first result but clicking that gives a completely different album |
| 22:27 | <annevk2> | makes no sense |
| 22:29 | <annevk2> | searching for "air" gives "us air force tactical air command band" as first result rather than "air" (which they also have) |
| 23:37 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: clearly we should extend selectors to allow multiple pseudo-elements video::cue(narrator)::fragment(i) |
| 23:37 | <annevk2> | really? |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: why clearly? |
| 23:39 | <zcorpan> | maybe not clearly, but it seems more natural to write the selector with two pseudo-elements |
| 23:39 | <zcorpan> | otoh it's probably easier to implement with one pseudo-element |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | certainly we could make it more complex, but i'd like to see the use cases before we do so :-) |
| 23:41 | Hixie | tries to work out what the units of the numbers in the -webkit-gradient syntax are |
| 23:44 | <othermaciej> | we really need to update to match the -moz-gradient syntax |
| 23:44 | <othermaciej> | or whatever the latest proposal is |
| 23:51 | <zcorpan> | ::cue(narrator, i) -- two arguments means fragment |
| 23:51 | <zcorpan> | first argument can be * |
