| 02:05 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: done |
| 02:06 | <MikeSmith> | thanks |
| 02:08 | <MikeSmith> | I'll get the author-edition published in TR space along with the multipage |
| 02:08 | <MikeSmith> | for next round of WDs |
| 04:58 | <karlcow> | looking at "Proposing New Features" at the bottom of this page http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTML-WG/ |
| 05:19 | <MikeSmithX> | "We value your opinion, really we do, but we're going to put a stiff tax on its expression, so that we won't have to hear it very often." |
| 05:23 | <MikeSmith> | +1 |
| 07:01 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: OK. I was hoping to get advice on which seats I should get... |
| 07:15 | <hsivonen> | AryehGregor: It's a bit of a myth that Hixie decides everything alone. Here's an example of influencing the decision process: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090212#l-27 |
| 07:18 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: maybe the Author Edition should be called something like an Edition for Web Authors |
| 07:18 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: otherwise it looks like the Editor's Cut |
| 07:21 | <hsivonen> | I still have trouble deciding if I should get the Avenue Q tickets from the Stalls or the Royal Circle (the first balcony level)... |
| 07:22 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: good point |
| 07:44 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: changed now to "Edition for Web Authors" |
| 07:44 | <MikeSmith> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ |
| 07:45 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: thanks |
| 07:45 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: btw, did you see my question yesterday about how to make the v.nu HTML5 parser usable by other Java apps from the command line? |
| 07:45 | MikeSmith | goes to get pointer to logs |
| 07:46 | <MikeSmith> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100602#l-181 |
| 08:54 | <hsivonen> | http://html4all.org/mailman/archives/list_html4all.org/2010-June/001066.html |
| 09:01 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: surely the reason is that Hixie wrote the text instead of the Experts |
| 09:04 | <Dashiva> | zcorpan_: A mutation of NIH? |
| 09:07 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: You are going to London? |
| 09:08 | <annevk> | bleh |
| 09:09 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yes. In July. |
| 09:09 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Nice. Holiday? |
| 09:10 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yeah, a short one, since I'd have a layover at LHR anyway |
| 09:10 | <annevk> | http://blog.chromium.org/2010/06/websocket-protocol-updated.html |
| 09:11 | <hsivonen> | I booked tickets for Avenue Q. gsnedders is effective at this social media marketing thing. |
| 09:11 | <jgraham> | What you mean he convinced you to go without ever actually having gone himself or having any idea of product quality? |
| 09:12 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: right. very effective indeed. |
| 09:13 | <annevk> | haha |
| 09:14 | <hsivonen> | great to see that Chromium is tracking the spec changes for Web Socket |
| 09:19 | <hsivonen> | working with hg on a hard disk feels very slow after getting used to an SSD |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/mikeplate/statuses/15247455331 |
| 09:26 | <annevk> | '"The most unreadable specification I've read in 20 years of standardization" Daniel Glazman on WhatWG #html5 doc spec #swdc' |
| 09:27 | hsivonen | wonders if the other specs that Daniel has read have been as precise |
| 09:27 | Dashiva | wonders if he has read any other specs at all |
| 09:28 | jgraham | wonders if the other specs will lead to such interoperable behaviour in such a complex area |
| 09:30 | annevk | wonders how carefully he read CSS 2.1 :-P |
| 09:31 | <workmad3> | annevk: surely you're not suggesting that the CSS 2.1 spec was unreadable! :) |
| 09:31 | <annevk> | I'm suggesting it is pretty hard to read |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | And incomplete unfortunately on certain important topics... |
| 09:32 | <Dashiva> | I can never remember where to find half the layout properties |
| 09:33 | <jgraham> | I think my serious response would be http://dbaron.org/log/20100531-specs |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | someone emailed me again the other day about href on any element... gave an explanation plus pointer to the FAQ entry |
| 10:18 | <aho> | easy way: you should have just pointed out that it's now fine to put whatever you want into a-elements :> |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | he was actually aware of that |
| 10:25 | <mikekelly> | I'm interested in understand why it isn't possible for javascript to kick off a page transition and have granular control over the request in the same as you do with XHR - anyone know? |
| 10:27 | <zcorpan_> | mikekelly: because there's only one person in the world who wants to do that |
| 10:35 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: And Hixie was good at convincing me I should go (though mainly F2F, so no IRC logs of this) |
| 10:38 | <zcorpan_> | jgraham: who's marlin? did you mean malin? |
| 10:39 | <jgraham> | zcorpan_: Probably |
| 10:39 | <Dashiva> | He's implying she's fishy |
| 10:40 | <jgraham> | I consider it a good day if I manage to spell my own name right |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | jgraham, low standards much? |
| 10:52 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Your spelling it better than mine. :P |
| 10:52 | <annevk> | though I guess it's a good thing it doesn't depend on externalities, like someone else spelling your name right for a change... |
| 10:52 | <gsnedders> | (There again, that is a really low standard.) |
| 10:52 | <jgraham> | annevk: I like to use the word "realistic" |
| 12:30 | <hsivonen> | Does anyone happen to have an URL for a style sheet that's guarenteed to load artificially slowly? |
| 12:30 | <Rik`> | hsivonen: steve souders should have that with cuzillion |
| 12:33 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I guess OPera internal urls aren't that useful to you ;) |
| 12:33 | <Rik`> | hsivonen: http://stevesouders.com/cuzillion/ |
| 12:34 | <jgraham> | Rik`: Neat |
| 12:36 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: thanks |
| 12:36 | <Rik`> | yeah, pretty useful |
| 13:09 | <hsivonen> | what's a cross-browser (incl. IE) way to ask an element for its color? |
| 13:09 | <Dashiva> | None that I know of, you have to combine getComputedStyle and currentStyle |
| 13:10 | <Rik`> | and don't forget the please argument |
| 13:11 | <Dashiva> | brb, implementing intercal support in webkit |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | ok. maybe I'll try to see if Opera and WebKit support offsetHeight |
| 13:12 | <Dashiva> | You can't just detect getComputedStyle and fallback to currentStyle? |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | Dashiva: I just want to check if a test style sheet is applied at a given point |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | I don't need to check arbitrary styles. |
| 13:30 | <zcorpan_> | offsetHeight should work |
| 13:34 | <hsivonen> | as I expected, none of the top 4 engines behaves like the spec says when a document.written internal script occurs right after an external style sheet in the same document.write |
| 13:35 | <hsivonen> | http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/sheet-blocking-script.html |
| 13:35 | <hsivonen> | time to file a spec bug |
| 13:36 | <hsivonen> | it took a lot of trying to come up with a test that explained the behavior of all 4 |
| 13:54 | <Dashiva> | And there are _still_ people who object to the design principles, wonderful |
| 14:02 | <hsivonen> | whew. http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9843 filed. |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | is there a service that lets me search Hixie's commit messages? |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | or browse blame for the spec? |
| 14:24 | <Dashiva> | If there isn't, you could search the archives for commit-watchers |
| 14:32 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I assume you don't count the avaliability of svn for checkout as "a service" |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: isn't it slow? and no Web UI? |
| 14:34 | hsivonen | needs to find the SVG URL |
| 14:34 | hsivonen | guesses correctly |
| 14:38 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Yes |
| 14:38 | <hsivonen> | OK, now I need to find the list discussion that motivated http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=13&to=14 |
| 14:47 | <hsivonen> | I was unable to find a public discussion leading to that change. |
| 14:48 | <gsnedders> | r14!? Man, that's old sk00l. |
| 16:30 | <crankharder> | this manifest should hit /offline/update_all_events regardless of cache/network status right? |
| 16:30 | <crankharder> | http://pastie.org/990656 |
| 17:34 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. <input required> in Chrome dev channel seemingly doesn't submit the form, but gives no error. |
| 17:34 | <AryehGregor> | It just focuses the password field. |
| 17:35 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, the required field. |
| 17:35 | <remysharp> | AryehGregor: it's flagged as invalid on the dom node - you have to go all JS on the element |
| 17:35 | <AryehGregor> | That seems like a really bad feature to deploy. If you don't have UI, you shouldn't enforce the requirements either. |
| 17:36 | <remysharp> | AryehGregor: completely agree |
| 17:36 | <AryehGregor> | The form validation API is not meant to be JS-only. It's meant to work even if the author provides no JS. |
| 17:37 | <AryehGregor> | Are there minimal UI requirements in the spec here? |
| 17:37 | AryehGregor | is looking |
| 17:37 | <gsnedders> | No |
| 17:37 | gsnedders | would hope there aren't any UI requirements |
| 17:37 | <AryehGregor> | Not even "you have to tell the user and not just silently fail"? |
| 17:37 | <AryehGregor> | That seems like a pretty reasonable UI requirement to me. |
| 17:37 | <gsnedders> | What if it's Googlebot? |
| 17:38 | <AryehGregor> | I'm talking about browsers here. Googlebot is not a browser. |
| 17:39 | <AryehGregor> | A Googlebot does not fall into the "Web browsers and other interactive user agents" category. |
| 17:39 | <AryehGregor> | It's "Data mining tools", I suppose. |
| 17:39 | <AryehGregor> | So it only has to follow the semantic requirements, not UI requirements. |
| 17:43 | <AryehGregor> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/association-of-controls-and-forms.html#constraint-validation "Report the problems with the constraints of at least one of the elements given in unhandled invalid controls to the user." |
| 17:43 | <AryehGregor> | It explicitly suggests focusing the element, but that's just not enough. There needs to be some text somehow. |
| 17:45 | <AryehGregor> | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=34945 |
| 18:36 | <zcorpan_> | hmm, so <link rel=next> is being spread on twitter as being 'html5 prefetch' |
| 18:37 | <zcorpan_> | http://keyboardy.com/programming/html5-link-prefetching/ |
| 18:38 | <AryehGregor> | Didn't it way predate -- oh, never mind, buzzword. |
| 18:45 | zcorpan_ | comments |
| 18:48 | <TabAtkins> | Haha, I love <canvas>+<video> *so* much - http://betaweb.csug.rochester.edu/~jparish/public/canvas/video.html |
| 18:49 | <miketaylr> | that's awesome |
| 18:50 | <TabAtkins> | I think it would be even more awesome if it didn't draw into the canvas, but just used it for calculation, and instead did the display in real text. |
| 18:50 | <miketaylr> | dhtml 4 life |
| 18:55 | <miketaylr> | somewhat unrelated, but did you see kangax's svg -> canvas parser thingy? http://yura.thinkweb2.com/canvas_demo/ |
| 19:00 | <TabAtkins> | No, I had not previously seen that! |
| 19:00 | <TabAtkins> | Random note - anyone know who the dude in that image is? |
| 19:01 | <miketaylr> | the tongue sticking out guy? |
| 19:01 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah. |
| 19:01 | <miketaylr> | ha. no clue. i can ping kangax on IM and ask though |
| 19:02 | <TabAtkins> | kk. I'm just wondering because it looks sorta like jimmy urine. |
| 19:04 | <miketaylr> | quoth the kangax, "just some svg i found on the web" |
| 19:04 | <TabAtkins> | Kk. |
| 19:19 | <AryehGregor> | Awesome, Ubuntu versions are now tracking latest Firefox instead of freezing on a stable branch forever. |
| 19:23 | <gratz|home> | hm |
| 19:23 | <gratz|home> | AryehGregor, link to info? |
| 19:24 | <AryehGregor> | gratz|home, http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/2051 |
| 19:26 | <gratz|home> | cool |
| 19:26 | <gratz|home> | was a bit surprised since they freeze everything for standardisation / support |
| 19:26 | <gratz|home> | good to see though :D |
| 19:28 | <gratz|home> | brb |
| 19:43 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: You around? Question about Hebrew numbering. |
| 19:43 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, I'm here. |
| 19:43 | <TabAtkins> | Do you know how accurate the current css3-lists description of hebrew numbering is? It looks like it's pretty easy to describe with a simple greedy additive algorithm. |
| 19:44 | <AryehGregor> | I commented about that some time ago, didn't I? |
| 19:44 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, but I can't follow that discussion well enough to be sure. |
| 19:44 | <AryehGregor> | The conclusion was that it should just stop at 999,999. |
| 19:44 | <TabAtkins> | Okay, that's fine. |
| 19:44 | <AryehGregor> | If you do that, then it's very simple. |
| 19:44 | <TabAtkins> | And the appears if and only if the number is 1k or greater? |
| 19:45 | <TabAtkins> | the geresh |
| 19:45 | <AryehGregor> | Well, there are still a couple weird things, actually. |
| 19:45 | <TabAtkins> | Well, plus the 15/16 exceptions. |
| 19:45 | <AryehGregor> | I'd ditch all the places where it uses a Hebrew word, like 0, 1000, 2000, etc. |
| 19:45 | <TabAtkins> | The current algo doesn't use a word anywhere. |
| 19:46 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, what URL are you looking at? |
| 19:46 | <AryehGregor> | I'm looking at a WD, I think. |
| 19:46 | <TabAtkins> | http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-lists/#algorithmic |
| 19:46 | <TabAtkins> | It's just "choose a value from this list for the 100k digit, 10k digit, 1k digit, add a geresh if necessary, 100 digit, 10 digit, 1 digit". |
| 19:47 | <AryehGregor> | This looks fine to me, yes. |
| 19:47 | <TabAtkins> | Kk, cool. |
| 19:47 | <AryehGregor> | I don't know how standard it is for stuff above 1000. I've seen that convention used, but people also sometimes just continue on without a geresh. |
| 19:47 | <AryehGregor> | E.g., תתר for 1000. |
| 19:47 | <TabAtkins> | I'm developing a syntax to allow authors to specify list-styles themselves. All the non-algorithmics are trivial, and I'm trying to solve as many algorithmics as I can do simply. |
| 19:48 | <AryehGregor> | That gets unwieldy above about 1200, though. |
| 19:48 | <TabAtkins> | Most of them fall into either "cjk" or "additive" camps. |
| 19:48 | <AryehGregor> | The Hebrew one is quite simple. The only oddity is the 15/16 thing, I think. |
| 19:49 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, but that's easy enough to do with a greedy additive algorithm. Just specify 19/18/17/16/15 as possible tokens. |
| 19:49 | <TabAtkins> | Then it'll take those in preference to building 15/16 the "normal" way with a 10 and a 5/6. |
| 19:49 | <AryehGregor> | Ah, I see. |
| 19:49 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, that should work fine. |
| 19:50 | <TabAtkins> | Good to know. |
| 19:51 | <TabAtkins> | Stupid ethiopic and tamil numbering systems being all complicated. |
| 19:52 | <zcorpan_> | does css support roman numbers? |
| 19:52 | <TabAtkins> | I can handle tamil with an addition to my additive system, but ethiopic is impossible without creating something that might as well be general purpose. |
| 19:52 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan_: CSS3 Lists describes it (under the algorithmic types). |
| 19:53 | <TabAtkins> | My method of defining list-styles also supports it. |
| 19:53 | <zcorpan_> | nice |
| 19:54 | <TabAtkins> | I currently have an example UA stylesheet that defines every non-glyph and non-algorithmic list type. I'll be adding the algorithmics that I can handle soon. |
| 19:55 | <TabAtkins> | I wonder where I could find someone who knows the tamil numbering system? |
| 19:55 | <TabAtkins> | I want to confirm something before I give up on it. |
| 19:55 | <TabAtkins> | Random fun fact - in my syntax, it's pretty easy to describe a "one, two, three" list-style. |
| 19:56 | <AryehGregor> | You should support Roman numerals the way the romans actually used them most of the time, with IIII instead of IV and so on. Then it's really trivial. |
| 19:57 | <AryehGregor> | (fun fact: watches with Roman numerals typically have IIII instead of IV, but IX instead of VIIII) |
| 19:57 | <TabAtkins> | Indeed, both of those systems are trivial. |
| 19:58 | <TabAtkins> | The subtractive roman numerals just require a handful more entries in the token list. |
| 19:58 | <TabAtkins> | (So that it'll take "XC" for 90 if it can, frex.) |
| 19:58 | <TabAtkins> | The only thing I can't do in my system is support overbars, but honestly who cares. |
| 19:59 | <TabAtkins> | I'm fine with the range just being 1-39999. |
| 19:59 | zcorpan_ | didn't know about overbars in roman numbers |
| 20:00 | <AryehGregor> | There's no Roman-numeral-with-overbar Unicode character? |
| 20:00 | <AryehGregor> | characters. |
| 20:00 | <TabAtkins> | I dunno. Maybe? |
| 20:02 | <AryehGregor> | I don't see it. |
| 20:02 | <AryehGregor> | There are Roman numerals around U+2160 ff., but none with overbars. |
| 20:03 | <AryehGregor> | At least not in my font. |
| 20:03 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, though apparently unicode recommends against using them. Apparently they're mainly for cjk usage. |
| 20:03 | <TabAtkins> | They recommend just using latin letters normally. |
| 20:03 | <AryehGregor> | Right, I remember that. |
| 20:09 | <TabAtkins> | Hmm, does it make sense to include the 5k and 10k characters? They're marked as "archaic" roman numerals in the unicode listing. |
| 20:14 | <Philip`> | I thought most Roman numerals were pretty archaic |
| 20:15 | <TabAtkins> | They prefer the term "classical". |
| 20:34 | <AryehGregor> | Only Roman letters are usually used for Roman numerals. |
| 20:34 | <AryehGregor> | Up to M for 1000. |
| 20:34 | <AryehGregor> | Today, I mean. |
| 20:38 | <zcorpan_> | chrome 6.0.422.0 crashes on my websocket testsuite |
| 20:39 | <zcorpan_> | hmm, one test not only killed the tab but killed all of chrome |
| 20:41 | <zcorpan_> | now it seems to be any test - maybe chrome got fed up and didn't like websockets anymore |
| 20:41 | <AryehGregor> | You know Chrome changed the WebSocket implementation incompatibly in 6.0, right? |
| 20:41 | AryehGregor | assumes so, but is just checking |
| 20:42 | <zcorpan_> | yes, that's why my tests work at all |
| 20:42 | <zcorpan_> | i should probably look into making my tests public |
| 20:44 | <zcorpan_> | seems it crashes if the server sends a binary frame with length 2^32 |
| 21:05 | <zcorpan_> | ok out of 158 tests, chrome passes 98 and crashes on 2, and sometimes seemingly crashes hard on any test |
| 21:05 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan_: On OS X? |
| 21:05 | <zcorpan_> | yes |
| 21:14 | <zcorpan_> | seems chrome happily opens the connection without checking the upgrade and connection fields |
| 22:21 | <TabAtkins> | Argh, damn you hebrew. I'm just going to skip providing the hebrew list-type in actual characters and only do it with escapes, because bidi mixing is super-frustrating. >_< |
| 22:30 | <AryehGregor> | It's super-frustrating even if you can actually read it. |
| 22:31 | <AryehGregor> | Especially when it keeps switching direction as you type. |
| 22:36 | <TabAtkins> | For real. I was about to start cussing when it was swapping the direction of backspace and delete based on which direction I approached the comma from. |
| 22:38 | <AryehGregor> | Yep. |