| 00:01 | <JonathanNeal> | I've seen a few sites suggest alt="" but I didn't trust it. |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | No, the content next to it is the meaning of the image, not a description. |
| 00:02 | <TabAtkins> | (Assuming I'm imagining the same page you are.) |
| 00:02 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: not sure what you're asking but in general http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/ has some guidance |
| 00:02 | <MikeSmith> | and the section on img in the spec |
| 00:03 | <JonathanNeal> | TabAtkins, thanks. MikeSmith, I'll check it out, thanks. |
| 00:04 | <MikeSmith> | hober: Donald Knuth? |
| 00:04 | <MikeSmith> | has there been some news about him planning to announce something? |
| 00:05 | <JonathanNeal> | MikeSmith, ah very useful. |
| 00:06 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: thank Steve Faulkner for editing it :) |
| 00:06 | <JonathanNeal> | I refuse! |
| 00:07 | <JonathanNeal> | I kid! |
| 00:07 | <JonathanNeal> | Thank you Steve Faulkner, wherever you are. |
| 00:08 | <TabAtkins> | I make Julienne Fries! |
| 00:13 | <hober> | MikeSmith: yes: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news.html#lectures |
| 00:13 | <hober> | he's to make "an earthshaking announcement" tonight |
| 00:25 | <zcorpan_> | http://www.facesaerch.com/banana.html |
| 00:31 | <JonathanNeal> | zcorpan_, ah, html5 |
| 00:31 | <JonathanNeal> | aka css3 |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: the tier 1 implementations of WebSRT are highly likely to include software that aren't browsers |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: e.g. quicktime, srt authoring software, youtube |
| 00:41 | TabAtkins | loves making tools that people use. |
| 00:43 | <paul_irish> | MikeSmith: ah that's what i thought! :) \o/ |
| 00:56 | <MikeSmith> | hober: interesting -- thanks |
| 02:55 | <MikeSmith> | anybody know what is #hohtml5 #VTM_WD |
| 02:55 | <MikeSmith> | ah, Voices That Matter |
| 02:56 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.voicesthatmatter.com/webdesign2010/ |
| 02:57 | <MikeSmith> | looks like a great event |
| 02:58 | <MikeSmith> | but the marketing collateral is .. well, I guess it's marketing speak like most other events |
| 02:58 | <MikeSmith> | "The Pearson Education Voices That Matter Conference series gives voice to the most important thought leaders in technology, design, and business today. These conferences give our readers access to those who have devised new technologies, new approaches and new inventions. Our speakers are the individuals who have made the strongest contributions impacting their industry. They are highly visible practitioners and luminaries who |
| 02:58 | <MikeSmith> | lead the way, spawn new technologies and inspire passionate communities." |
| 02:58 | <MikeSmith> | thought leaders spawning |
| 03:01 | <MikeSmith> | http://webdesign2010.crowdvine.com/talks/10513 is #hohtml5 I guess |
| 03:01 | <MikeSmith> | Hands-On HTML5 Workshop |
| 03:01 | <MikeSmith> | tantek |
| 03:01 | <MikeSmith> | cool |
| 03:23 | <MikeSmith> | webkit is getting a UI for examining and changing application-cache contents |
| 03:23 | <MikeSmith> | https://bug-24529-attachments.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=60172 |
| 03:25 | <miketaylr> | oh that's handy |
| 04:06 | <paul_irish> | oh wow. excellent |
| 04:07 | <paul_irish> | MikeSmith: did you like the webk.it shorturl at least? |
| 04:08 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: yeah |
| 04:08 | <paul_irish> | i hooked that up. #nobigdeal |
| 04:09 | <MikeSmith> | oh cool |
| 04:09 | <MikeSmith> | good to see that you're finally finding some ways to make yourself useful :) |
| 04:09 | <paul_irish> | precisely! |
| 04:09 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: I wasn't pooh-poohing the fragment-ID thing, btw |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | I just hadn't realized it actually worked |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | it *should* work |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | there's just some browsers it doesn't work in yet |
| 04:11 | <MikeSmith> | and the solution is for those browsers to make it work as well |
| 04:11 | <paul_irish> | hahaha. yes i agree |
| 04:11 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: you settled in out there yet? got a place and all? living in the city or mountain view, or? |
| 04:12 | <MikeSmith> | (if you don't mind me asking) |
| 04:12 | <MikeSmith> | (if you do mind me asking, just make up fake answers) |
| 04:13 | <paul_irish> | MikeSmith: living in SF (right between Mission and Noe). shuttling down to Mtn View. got a pet giraffe. |
| 04:13 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 04:14 | <MikeSmith> | I like the "between Mission and Noe" part you made up.. nice |
| 04:14 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, nice area |
| 04:15 | <paul_irish> | Don Knuth's "Earthshaking Announcement": TeX has new successor. Fix mistakes of tex78. New will use XML, arbitrary prec, autolayout |
| 04:16 | <MikeSmith> | oh boy |
| 04:16 | <MikeSmith> | that is a change |
| 04:16 | <MikeSmith> | paul_irish: got a URL? |
| 04:18 | <paul_irish> | no i dont. just looking at twitter search. other tweets indicate its "all a joke" .. shrug. |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 04:19 | <MikeSmith> | should have seen that one coming I guess |
| 04:36 | <no_mind> | How should one propose a change in a HTML5 tag |
| 04:40 | <othermaciej> | no_mind: you can suggest it on one of the mailing lists (public-html or whatwg) if you want discussion, or you can just file a bug at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/enter_bug.cgi?product=HTML%20WG&component=HTML5%20spec%20%28editor%3A%20Ian%20Hickson%29&priority=P3 |
| 04:41 | <no_mind> | ok, posting to whatwg mailing list is a betteridea |
| 04:42 | <no_mind> | in the <video> tag if src is a stream will it play the video ? |
| 04:51 | <paul_irish> | no_mind: yup. i've seen both vorbis and vp8 stream via the video tag. |
| 05:28 | <MikeSmith> | can somebody try http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-30-objection-poll/ in a Webkit nightly and tell me what styling you get for the links in the questions sections |
| 05:29 | <MikeSmith> | ...somebody who has access submit answers |
| 05:29 | <MikeSmith> | html wg member |
| 05:29 | <Hixie> | purple on black |
| 05:30 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: thanks |
| 05:30 | <MikeSmith> | I see the same thing |
| 05:30 | <othermaciej> | I get purple on black in Safari 5 as well |
| 05:30 | <MikeSmith> | and I have no idea why |
| 05:30 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: web inspector offers no help here |
| 05:30 | <MikeSmith> | as far as I can see |
| 05:30 | <othermaciej> | interesting, it doesn't look broken in Firefo |
| 05:31 | <othermaciej> | x |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith> | it looks fine in any other browser I've tried |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith> | but I was wrong about what Web Inspector shows |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | it's a bug in hyatt's new safety code |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith> | Computed Style shows that it's black |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | privacy code rather |
| 05:32 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 05:32 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | (i would hazard) |
| 05:32 | <MikeSmith> | the "keep visited links private" stuff |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | you should file it :-) |
| 05:32 | <MikeSmith> | must be |
| 05:32 | <MikeSmith> | should I? |
| 05:32 | <othermaciej> | that would be my guess, but it's neither the :visited style nor the :link style |
| 05:32 | <miketaylr> | i've seen that before as well |
| 05:32 | <miketaylr> | on this page: http://placenamehere.com/article/402/ProgressiveEnhancementForBetterPerformance |
| 05:32 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: should I file a bug on this? is there maybe one open already? |
| 05:33 | <miketaylr> | (visiting any link, then coming back) |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | if you toggle the :link style's background, it fixes it |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | which is clearly a bug |
| 05:33 | <Hixie> | (toggle as in uncheck in inspector) |
| 05:33 | <MikeSmith> | miketaylr: indeed |
| 05:35 | <MikeSmith> | reminds me that I wish Web Inspector would tell you how it's computing a style, when the style is not coming from an actual stylesheet |
| 05:35 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., for align=center on th |
| 05:52 | <MikeSmith> | something borked in WBS backend |
| 05:52 | <MikeSmith> | "The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server." |
| 05:52 | MikeSmith | goes off to wake up systems team |
| 06:15 | <MikeSmith> | looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/dap-privacy-reqs/ |
| 06:15 | <MikeSmith> | "APIs must support a mechanism for users to convey their preferences about retention, secondary use, and sharing to applications in the context of an API interaction" |
| 06:15 | <MikeSmith> | "APIs must support a mechanism for applications to convey their policies about retention, secondary use, and sharing to users prior to or during API interactions" |
| 06:16 | <MikeSmith> | and other requirements like that throughout |
| 06:17 | <othermaciej> | not a sound approach to security :-( |
| 06:17 | <MikeSmith> | "APIs must make it possible for user agents to..." |
| 06:17 | <MikeSmith> | well, the language of it just strikes me as really odd |
| 06:18 | <MikeSmith> | if an API does not do anything to prevent a UA from providing whatever UI it cares to for conveying "preferences about retention, secondary use, and sharing to applications in the context of an API interaction" |
| 06:19 | <MikeSmith> | ...then, is it conforming to that requirement? |
| 06:19 | <MikeSmith> | that is, by doing nothing at all, it is "supporting" whatever mechanism the UA might provide |
| 06:20 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, these do not seem at all like API requirements |
| 06:20 | <MikeSmith> | they are UA requirements -- or even, arguably, platform requirements |
| 06:21 | <MikeSmith> | "To ensure that data is not collected without users knowing or realizing, APIs should be designed with the presumption that the explicit consent model will be used, and should explain the specific circumstances under which implicit consent may be acceptable. This gives rise to the following requirements" |
| 06:22 | <MikeSmith> | ...and then some requirements that it doesn't necessarily "give rise to" at all |
| 06:23 | <MikeSmith> | the first part of that sentence is great -- ""To ensure that data is not collected without users knowing or realizing, APIs should be designed with the presumption that the explicit consent model will be used" |
| 06:23 | <MikeSmith> | perfect, even |
| 06:23 | <MikeSmith> | but how does an API itself "explain the specific circumstances under which implicit consent may be acceptable" ? |
| 06:25 | <MikeSmith> | "Attaching policy rules to the data that get shared can provide a legal basis for enhancing the control users have over their data once they are shared" |
| 06:26 | <MikeSmith> | "...can provide a legal basis..." is a scary phrase to see in a technical spec |
| 06:28 | <MikeSmith> | a couple of the editorial notes do instead use wording about APIs providing "hooks" |
| 06:29 | <MikeSmith> | seems like all of the requirements should instead be stated that way |
| 06:29 | <MikeSmith> | if at all |
| 06:30 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., APIs must provide properties or methods that UAs can use to obtain user consent before sharing any data via the APIs |
| 06:30 | <MikeSmith> | or whatever |
| 06:39 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/push_notifications_for_web_apps.php |
| 06:41 | <MikeSmith> | "The Working Group is slated to work until the end of January 2012 and is chaired by a 23 year old Dutch engineer from Opera named Anne van Kesteren (@annevk). The draft spec was edited by John Gregg, a Microsoft-turned-Google software engineer" |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | it shalle henceforth be referred to as "the group chaired by a 23 year old Dutchman" |
| 06:44 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder why he doesn't mention how old John is |
| 06:45 | <MikeSmith> | or what is nationality is |
| 06:45 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, nice article |
| 06:53 | <hsivonen> | annevk: my argument isn't "let's use XML; it' great". My argument is "<i>, <b>, <ruby>, etc. sure look like HTML" |
| 06:55 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: fwiw, I think it's a good feature of the chairs decisions that they do not mention any names |
| 06:55 | <MikeSmith> | I think it would also be a good convention for change proposals to follow |
| 06:55 | <MikeSmith> | the wiki helps with that some |
| 06:56 | <MikeSmith> | but maybe also suggesting to change-proposal writers that they omit their names from the proposals |
| 06:56 | <MikeSmith> | for the wiki ones at least |
| 06:58 | <MikeSmith> | in order to help ensure that people review the objectively and fairly |
| 06:58 | <MikeSmith> | *them |
| 06:59 | <Hixie> | that's why i ignore who wrote what when i go through proposals myself |
| 07:04 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, but that's harder to do when you actually do know who wrote what |
| 07:05 | <MikeSmith> | a convention of leaving off names would help people who do not already know who wrote what |
| 07:05 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41445 |
| 07:06 | <MikeSmith> | for the visited-links-with-black-background problem |
| 07:07 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: thanks |
| 07:09 | <annevk> | hsivonen ,fair enough |
| 07:13 | <MikeSmith> | how would presence of an HTML4 or XHTML1 doctype be useful for XSLT processing of a document? |
| 07:14 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: input or output? |
| 07:15 | <hsivonen> | if input, an XHTML1 doctype gives you more entities if the XML parser processes external entiteis |
| 07:16 | <hsivonen> | for output, they address the same problem as <!DOCTYPE html SYSTEM "about:legacy-compat"> |
| 07:17 | <hsivonen> | i.e. standards mode in a way that the built-in non-text output modes can produce |
| 07:23 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I think the intent was only about input |
| 07:24 | <MikeSmith> | and the entities thing certainly does seem relevant in that case |
| 07:24 | <MikeSmith> | ...if you were trying to run an XSLT transform on a non-XML HTML5 doc |
| 07:25 | <MikeSmith> | which you could do if you were able to have the XSLT engine use an HTML5 parser instead of whatever XML one it uses by default |
| 07:25 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., in an Java environment |
| 07:26 | <MikeSmith> | where you can swap out the parser by setting system properties |
| 07:26 | <MikeSmith> | hmm |
| 07:26 | <MikeSmith> | but in that case, of course the HTML5 parser already has all the entities |
| 07:26 | <MikeSmith> | hard-coded |
| 07:30 | <MikeSmith> | I can imagine people reading "Authors should not use obsolete permitted DOCTYPEs, as they are unnecessarily long." and concluding it's meant to refer to XML-syntax HTML docs, not just HTML-syntax ones |
| 08:13 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/v/status/17434406417 is quite the praise :) |
| 08:14 | <hsivonen> | annevk: danger! perceived importance brings more objections |
| 08:15 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: you should tweet about how unimportant it is |
| 08:21 | <hsivonen> | annevk: the differences doc still has the ping attribute |
| 08:25 | <annevk> | hsivonen, yeah, myakura pointed that out to me on twitter |
| 08:25 | <annevk> | hsivonen, I'll fix that whenever we publish again |
| 08:33 | <zcorpan_> | "Opera 10.60 is the first final browser that has support for the high quality video format WebM." - http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2010/07/01/opera-10-60-goes-final |
| 08:35 | <hsivonen> | congrats for the release |
| 08:36 | hsivonen | wonders what kinds of company-internal processes enable Opera's release frequency |
| 08:46 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan_, annevk - +1 on that congrats |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jun/0333.html |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | bravo DougT |
| 08:48 | <MikeSmith> | "I do not want to build or design an API that embeds policy information in it. From a developers pov, i have never seen such an API nor would want to use one." |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | relates to http://www.w3.org/TR/dap-privacy-reqs/ |
| 08:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jun/0335.html is a good read, too |
| 08:50 | MikeSmith | reads |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, http://www.w3.org/TR/dap-privacy-reqs/ is a Note, but uses RFC 2119 terms |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | and I realize now it's not a requirements list in the normal "use case and requirements" sense at all |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | instead, it is stating implementation conformance requirements |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: ah, yeah (about that being a good read) |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | there should be a FAQ we can point to about that particular question |
| 08:55 | <zcorpan_> | http://www.opera.com/portal/geo/ hmm none in africa... oh wait actually one in egypt |
| 08:56 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan_: privacy violation. |
| 08:57 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: huh? does Opera publish the location on that map when someone uses geolocation in Opera on another Web page? |
| 08:58 | <MikeSmith> | and this scholarly paper that people keep citing - http://escholarship.org/uc/item/0rp834wf - "Privacy Issues of the W3C Geolocation API" |
| 08:58 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: only if you go to that page |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: ah |
| 08:59 | <gsnedders> | The Linköping office is in Borås |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | "Privacy Issues of the W3C Geolocation API" is published through http://escholarship.org/about_escholarship.html - |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | "eScholarship provides a suite of open access, scholarly publishing services and research tools that enable departments, research units, publishing programs, and individual scholars associated with the University of California to have direct control over the creation and dissemination of the full range of their scholarship" |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | "direct control" |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | "Publications benefit from manuscript and peer-review management systems" |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | ...but don't _require_ any actual peer-review |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | "So you get the appearance of having published your paper in an actual scholarly journal without having gone through any of the annoying and time-wasty peer review that such journals require." |
| 09:03 | <MikeSmith> | (the last quote is a paraphrase) |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | the DAP reqs look to me like they want some kind of reverse DRM |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | (reverse in the sense of an individual applying DRM against a corporation) |
| 09:15 | <hsivonen> | "Because retention, secondary use, and sharing are largely out of the control of the APIs, it's not entirely clear that it makes sense to have any API requirements about these aspects." indeed |
| 09:19 | <MikeSmith> | replace "retention, secondary use, and sharing" with the words "most or all of what this document attempts to cover" |
| 09:21 | <MikeSmith> | nessy: heads-up that your message to the html-a11y has the same typo "?t=10,40" instead of '#t=10,40' as the one you sent to whatwg list |
| 09:21 | <nessy> | MikeSmith: it has indeed |
| 09:22 | <MikeSmith> | so you might want to sent a follow-up there too |
| 09:22 | <nessy> | feel free to send a reply to correct me |
| 09:22 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 09:22 | <nessy> | :) got a rather busy day... |
| 09:22 | <MikeSmith> | np |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | why should a Web app know the atmospheric pressure of the environment of the user??? |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | context: http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/system-info/ |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | hsivonen, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Jun/0335.html is very hard to read imo |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | hsivonen, any specific bits that are interesting? |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: the question "Have you considered URI's instead of strings, e.g. instead of 'geolocation' using a URI?" |
| 09:36 | <hsivonen> | annevk: "have you considered URI?" "Not really. why would that be better in practice?" |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | ooh that last part |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | I remember placing a one-liner on that here yesterday |
| 09:37 | <hsivonen> | a lot of W3C discussion in a nutshell there |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | something about solving all problems with URIs |
| 09:38 | <annevk> | "i have a problem" "oh, i know what to do: URIs" "now you have three problems" or something like that |
| 09:41 | <hsivonen> | who is shupping BONDI stuff? is it shipping on iOS or Android? (I guess not) |
| 09:41 | <hsivonen> | *shipping |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: :) |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | about "three problems" |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | very subtle |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | you are pretty clever for a 23 year old Dutch person |
| 09:43 | <jgraham> | No one who is Dutch could be clever |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: certainly not in i0S or Android |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know that it's shipping in anything that's been publicly announced |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: indeed, about the "a lot of W3C discussion in a nutshell there" |
| 09:44 | <hsivonen> | Anne is 23 already? this HTML5 stuff is taking so long that were are all getting old |
| 09:44 | <corey__> | html5 is supported on most major mobile devices? |
| 09:45 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Apart from gsnedders |
| 09:45 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: Protip: read e-mail messages by starting from the first line at the top |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: how do you mean? gsnedders got old enough to buy beer legally in Sweden |
| 09:46 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: He was born in 1992 |
| 09:46 | <jgraham> | No one born in 1992 will ever get old |
| 09:46 | <jgraham> | At least annevk had the decency to be born in a decade I have mostly forgotton |
| 09:47 | <hsivonen> | I'd expect Hixie no longer to be "twenty-something", so critics will need a new label there, too |
| 09:47 | <jgraham> | Soon they will accuse him of being too old to get the web |
| 09:47 | <jgraham> | "doesn't even twitter much" |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | "old guard" |
| 09:47 | <annevk> | "too conservative" |
| 09:48 | <zcorpan_> | we need to replace all old people |
| 09:48 | <MikeSmith> | reactionary |
| 09:48 | <MikeSmith> | I anticipate some struggle sessions |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | like they did to Pol Pot |
| 09:49 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Are you trying to imply you don't get the web? :P |
| 09:49 | <annevk> | TabAtkins, other CSS problem without proper attention: hit testing |
| 09:50 | annevk | should make a list one of these days |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: the verb is "tweet". the youth these days verbing nouns |
| 09:50 | <gsnedders> | "om nom noming" |
| 09:51 | <Philip`> | Hmm, how does the geolocation thing know where I am? It seems to be accurate to within about 100m, when I'm just connecting from a laptop (no GPS device) to an ADSL line (which I didn't think were known that precisely) |
| 09:52 | <Philip`> | Maybe I told Google where I am at some point in the past and it's remembered |
| 09:52 | <Philip`> | Is there some way to find out how it's making its decision? |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | at one point (when connecting by cable modem) the location Google told Firefox was freakishli accurate for my office |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | but then later the precision regressed and Google started reporting the official center point of Helsinki |
| 09:55 | <Peter`> | Chrome uses various location providers, including wifi scans |
| 09:55 | <Lachy> | Philip`, if you're referring to Opera's geolocation implementation, I believe it uses wi-fi based triangulation and Google's service to map that to a location |
| 09:58 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 09:59 | Philip` | is surprised that would work on Linux |
| 09:59 | <Lachy> | why wouldn't it work on linux? |
| 10:00 | <Philip`> | I wouldn't have thought there was a sufficiently standardised way of handling wifi on Linux |
| 10:04 | <roc> | there are some libraries |
| 10:09 | <Philip`> | I guess I'm just surprised when anything works immediately and straightforwardly on Linux |
| 10:12 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Well certianly I feel like *I* have got old whilst HTML5 has been brewing |
| 10:14 | <boblet> | are the vcard, vevent and license vocabularies for Microdata going to be included in the W3 microdata spec? or are they in some other W3 document? |
| 10:15 | <hsivonen> | boblet: unlikely (politics) |
| 10:15 | <annevk> | jgraham, yeah, you and your gray hairs :p |
| 10:15 | <gsnedders> | :D |
| 10:15 | <boblet> | hsivonen: i thought the problem was microdata itself, rather than vocabularies for it :) |
| 10:15 | <boblet> | huh. interesting |
| 10:17 | <roc> | Google's geolocation when I'm at home is pretty good considering their Street View vehicle didn't drive along my street |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | boblet, most things are problematic to one or another |
| 10:18 | <boblet> | annevk: “why haters gotta be hatin’?” indeed |
| 10:22 | <Lachy> | Philip`, the help provided within opera says that it uses either the IP address, wi-fi signals, cell towers and/or GPS, depending on the capabilities of the device and availability of signal within range. |
| 10:29 | <jgraham> | Dunno quite what it is though |
| 10:29 | <jgraham> | Hmm |
| 10:29 | <jgraham> | Wrong channel :) |
| 12:29 | <MikeSmith> | why are both the drop event and dragend event needed? |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | because the drop event can be canceled? |
| 12:32 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 12:33 | <MikeSmith> | or because the drag operation might stop over a target to which it is not draggable? |
| 12:33 | <MikeSmith> | in which case, the drop event fires, but the dropend event does not? |
| 12:34 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, or not |
| 12:34 | <MikeSmith> | are there any circumstances under which the drop event will fire but the dragend event will not? |
| 12:54 | <MikeSmith> | ah, drop event fires at the immediate user selection |
| 12:54 | <MikeSmith> | though the spec doesn't seem to explicitly state that |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | Hmm, is there a list somewhere of all known HTML element / attribute names either allowed or with special meaning in the parser? |
| 13:02 | <jgraham> | http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements doesn't have e.g. <pliantext> |
| 13:02 | <jgraham> | *<plaintext> |
| 13:02 | <jgraham> | Or the SVG or MathML elements that are magic |
| 13:03 | <jgraham> | In fact a list of all HTML + SVG + MathML elements + attributes would be best of all |
| 13:03 | <zcorpan_> | i think you'll have to make the list yourself |
| 13:03 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I think so too :( |
| 13:19 | <Philip`> | jgraham: Grep the spec for 'tag name .* "(.*?)"' perhaps? |
| 13:21 | <Philip`> | ...and then combine with lists from lots of other sources |
| 13:21 | <jgraham> | Philip`: Yeah |
| 13:21 | <Philip`> | which I guess is a lot of effort |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | Actually it'd be easier to grep an implementation of the spec |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | to find everything with special meaning |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | and then just combine with the index's list of elements/attributes |
| 13:22 | <Philip`> | perhaps |
| 13:32 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: The spec has a list of all with a special meaning in the parser |
| 13:32 | <gsnedders> | Of elements at least |
| 14:05 | MikeSmith | only just now discovers there's an atom feed for Dive Into HTML5 updates |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | feed://hg.diveintohtml5.org/hgweb.cgi/atom-log |
| 14:06 | MikeSmith | adds to Planet HTML5 |
| 17:17 | <boblet> | So if Google has it’s own simple vcard & vevent-based vocabularies, does anyone know if they also map the microformats.org vocabularies in the spec to them? |
| 17:17 | <boblet> | (for equivalent itemprops?) |
| 17:17 | <TabAtkins> | I dunno. I could ask, though. |
| 17:18 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: searching Google help atm, but not finding anything… |
| 17:19 | <boblet> | oh, maybe I should just make a test page and try it in the testing tool |
| 17:26 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: Rich Snippets testing tool feedback “Warnings : Itemtype not recognized” - this is using Google-provided http://www.data-vocabulary.org/Person/ and /Organization/ (guess it’s a bug) |
| 17:26 | <TabAtkins> | Test page? |
| 17:28 | <Philip`> | boblet: From the examples, it looks like you shouldn't have the trailing / on the URLs |
| 17:30 | <boblet> | http://oli-studio.com/test/microdata-2.html |
| 17:31 | <boblet> | thanks Philip` will try (c&p from URL bar getting me into trouble) |
| 17:33 | <boblet> | Philip`: wins the gold star (I get to sit in the corner) |
| 17:34 | <TabAtkins> | That's the problem with urls-as-ids - they tend to have only a single acceptable form, while urls-as-urls have multiple equivalent forms. |
| 17:34 | <jgraham> | Except when they don't |
| 17:37 | <TabAtkins> | Sure, but most of the time example.com, example.com/, www.example.com, www.example.com:80/, etc. all work. |
| 17:38 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: yeah I noticed that the data-vocabulary ones are annoyingly case-sensitive for standard loading (didn’t test with microdata parsing) |
| 17:39 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: also /Recipe was mentioned in the announcement/in rich snippets help, but is 404 on www.data-vocabulary.org/Recipe |
| 17:40 | <TabAtkins> | Sigh. |
| 17:40 | <boblet> | Rich Snippets testing tool gets http://microformats.org/profile/hcard but gives itemtype not recognised for http://microformats.org/profile/hcalendar#vevent (with/without #vevent) |
| 17:40 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: tell me to stop anytime :) |
| 17:41 | <TabAtkins> | I really dunno much about it, so I'll collect them together and test sometime later. |
| 17:41 | <TabAtkins> | Then do bug reports as necessary. |
| 17:42 | <boblet> | (same test file using microformats.org vocabularies is http://oli-studio.com/test/microdata-2.html btw) |
| 17:42 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: bug reports? that was a very restrained sigh then ;) |
| 17:43 | <boblet> | seems that using data-vocabulary.org leads to extracted data, and microformats.org doesn’t. hrm |
| 17:44 | <boblet> | that makes WHATWG microdata vocabularies quite a bit less appealing huh |
| 17:45 | <boblet> | (I’d hoped that as the WHATWG vocabularies are a superset, the equivalent properties would still be recognised by Rich Snippets) |
| 17:45 | <boblet> | hey Mike. good onsen? |
| 17:45 | <MikeSmith> | ? |
| 17:46 | <boblet> | or back from drinking? ;) |
| 17:46 | <MikeSmith> | sento |
| 17:46 | <boblet> | aah I should be more careful in my terminology |
| 17:46 | <MikeSmith> | and drinking black coffee |
| 17:47 | <boblet> | meeting coming up huh |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | trying to keep my body from trying to fool me into thinking I'm tired |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck: you should meet boblet some time |
| 17:47 | <MikeSmith> | boblet lives in Osaka |
| 17:48 | <MikeSmith> | boblet kennyluck lives in Fujisawa, near Keio U. |
| 17:48 | <kennyluck> | I should. I noticed that he has growing interest in RDFa, MikeSmith :) |
| 17:48 | <kennyluck> | I am not as active as you, MikeSmith, but I talk randomly on #swig |
| 17:49 | <MikeSmith> | boblet is a professional web creator -- design, writing, |
| 17:49 | <MikeSmith> | he writes articles for html5doctors now and then |
| 17:49 | <MikeSmith> | http://html5doctor.com/ |
| 17:49 | <kennyluck> | Thanks for your introduction. |
| 17:50 | <MikeSmith> | boblet: kennyluck worked on Tabulator with TimBL |
| 17:50 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/2005/ajar/tab |
| 17:50 | <kennyluck> | (He asked me to review an Ruby article, which is overdued on my TODO list) |
| 17:50 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 17:50 | kennyluck | feels sorry about that |
| 17:50 | <MikeSmith> | don't feel sorry, get off your ass and dance! |
| 17:50 | <boblet> | huh? kennyluck you helped heaps with that article yo |
| 17:51 | <kennyluck> | :) I would like to translate that in Chinese if possible. |
| 17:51 | <boblet> | lol! |
| 17:51 | <kennyluck> | Nice design, at least. Sorry I haven't read the content. |
| 17:51 | <boblet> | it’d be blocked by the great firewall |
| 17:51 | <MikeSmith> | http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/people/Overview.html |
| 17:51 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck picture can be found there |
| 17:51 | <kennyluck> | lol |
| 17:51 | <MikeSmith> | kennyluck, that's a good picture of you, chief |
| 17:51 | <boblet> | kennyluck: didn’t realise you were in JP |
| 17:52 | <kennyluck> | Thanks. |
| 17:53 | <boblet> | MikeSmith: I think I’m more a professional layabout who does lots of web related things with no salaries attached |
| 17:53 | <kennyluck> | boblet, hmm... I am still thinking about translating that article. Any process I should follow? |
| 17:53 | <TabAtkins> | What do you do *with* salaries attached? |
| 17:54 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: … |
| 17:54 | <MikeSmith> | we shall pay you in rough trade |
| 17:54 | boblet | hears crickets |
| 17:54 | <boblet> | し〜ん |
| 17:54 | <TabAtkins> | I see. Depending on the kindness of japanese strangers? |
| 17:54 | <kennyluck> | し〜んwww |
| 17:55 | <boblet> | kennyluck: if you want to be formal contact us via http://html5doctor.com/contact/ and request |
| 17:55 | <kennyluck> | Thanks! |
| 17:55 | <kennyluck> | I don't want to be formal, though. |
| 17:56 | <boblet> | add a link in a comment to http://html5doctor.com/ruby-rt-rp-element/ when it’s done then ;-) |
| 17:56 | <kennyluck> | But Taiwanese people should be more aware of the Ruby stuff. |
| 17:56 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: well I wouldn’t call my wife a stranger :| |
| 17:56 | <kennyluck> | Ah, great. Thanks. |
| 17:56 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, living off a sugarmomma. Good times. |
| 17:58 | <FastJack> | hi |
| 18:00 | <boblet> | FastJack: hey there |
| 18:02 | <boblet> | TabAtkins: unfortunately sugarmomma salaries aren’t what the used to be |
| 18:02 | <boblet> | they |
| 18:02 | <boblet> | ;( |
| 18:04 | <TabAtkins> | ;_; |
| 18:06 | <MikeSmith> | too much sadness and crying here today |
| 18:06 | <TabAtkins> | \o/ |
| 18:06 | <TabAtkins> | Does that help? |
| 18:06 | <MikeSmith> | Yes! |
| 18:06 | <TabAtkins> | \o/ |
| 18:06 | <MikeSmith> | let's keep this the happy, positive place that it's always been |
| 18:06 | TabAtkins | wonders why he gets so much chinese spam. |
| 18:07 | <boblet> | kennyluck: no changing my ruby examples now — they were meant to be humorously offensive to each nationality equally ;-) |
| 18:07 | <MikeSmith> | cause your name sounds Chinese |
| 18:07 | <TabAtkins> | I doubt this. |
| 18:07 | <TabAtkins> | Also: the spammers only know my email address. |
| 18:07 | <boblet> | although I couldn’t find something dodgy to say about Taiwanese ;( |
| 18:08 | <TabAtkins> | On that note, can anyone guess what nationality "Almage" would be a last name for? |
| 18:08 | boblet | so should be sleeping now |
| 18:09 | <kennyluck> | boblet, ah great! |
| 18:09 | <kennyluck> | I like 草泥馬 |
| 18:09 | <Philip`> | TabAtkins: French? |
| 18:10 | <TabAtkins> | Maybe. |
| 18:10 | <boblet> | kennyluck: but that’s more Chinese-relevant. I’d have liked something equally … fun in Taiwanese ;-) |
| 18:10 | <boblet> | ok nn all |
| 18:10 | <TabAtkins> | My email address provides me with a decent fake name - Jack Almage - and I was wondering what nationality to claim the name is. |
| 18:10 | TabAtkins | always gets a "Hi, Jack!" at the beginning of bug-report emails from strangers due to this. |
| 18:11 | <kennyluck> | bye boblet. |
| 18:12 | <MikeSmith> | Almagalmate |
| 19:00 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, when do you expect the decisions for issues 30 and 88 to be made? |
| 19:01 | <Lachy> | just curious cause I'm hoping to write up some more about longdesc on my blog to elaborate on the arguments I left in the poll, and wanted to get it done well before the decision was due |
| 19:01 | <Lachy> | I was rushed for time this week, so I didn't get that completed yesterday. |
| 19:11 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: I don't know for sure - we'll probably publish more of the others first |
| 19:11 | <othermaciej> | I'm working on drafting one of those right now |
| 19:30 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, do you mean more polls, or decisions based on polls we've already had? |
| 19:30 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: I mean the polls we already had |
| 19:30 | <Lachy> | btw, I thought the decision on details was really well written, cause it evaluated based on the strength of the arguments |
| 19:31 | <othermaciej> | we have the three polls that completed back in May, I think we will try to get through the rest of those before pushing on with 30 or 88 |
| 19:38 | <Peter-> | othermaciej: if you don't mind me asking, how about issue 95? I noticed that you were implementing @hidden in WebKit during the decision period |
| 19:39 | <othermaciej> | Peter-: that one is probably coming soon |
| 19:40 | <othermaciej> | Peter-: me implementing it was largely because I was bored and needed an easy task, though I kind of wish I had waited so it wouldn't cloud the issue |
| 19:40 | <Peter-> | othermaciej: I don't really mind, it caught the attention of a reader of my blog. Don't think it matters either way, I supplied a WebKit patch for <mark> for exactly the same reason |
| 19:42 | <othermaciej> | does your patch need review still? |
| 19:42 | <othermaciej> | I can look it over if needed |
| 19:43 | <Peter-> | It does, thank you: http://webk.it/41144 |
| 19:44 | <Peter-> | I am in #WebKit too by the way, might be better to discuss it there |
| 22:02 | <estellevw> | Weird question: I always thought that the id value was case sensitive, but the html5 spec doesn't indicate it to be. http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/elements.html#the-id-attribute |
| 22:03 | <estellevw> | is there anyplace that indicates the case sensitivity? |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | case sensitive with respect to what? |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | estellevw, it doesn't make sense to say that a string is case-sensitive or case-insensitive. A string is a string. Algorithms can treat them case-sensitively or not. |
| 22:06 | <AryehGregor> | For instance, elem.id == 'foo' will do a case-sensitive match, because string comparison is case-sensitive in JavaScript. |
| 22:06 | <estellevw> | that's what i thought. someone in another forum corrected me to state that id was no in fact case sensitive |
| 22:06 | <estellevw> | looking to disprove |
| 22:07 | <estellevw> | <label for="myID"> matches id="myID" only as well |
| 22:07 | <estellevw> | just couldn't find mention |
| 22:07 | <AryehGregor> | Generally speaking, string comparison is case-sensitive unless stated otherwise. |
| 22:08 | <AryehGregor> | Any sane programming language handles it that way, for instance. |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#the-id-attribute says "user agents must associate the element with the given value (exactly, including any space characters) for the purposes of ID matching" |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | which implies it is case-sensitive |
| 22:08 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe this should mention that all string comparisons are case-sensitive unless stated otherwise: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#case-sensitivity-and-string-comparison |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | however, whether it actually is or not depends on exactly what context you mean |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: if there are string comparisons that don't say whether they're case-sensitive or not, let me know |
| 22:09 | <estellevw> | thank you both of you. |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | "If the attribute is specified, the attribute's value must be the ID of a . . ." http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#attr-label-for |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | Doesn't say what it means to "be the ID of" something. |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | yeah, that should be clarified |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | can you file a bug? |
| 22:11 | <AryehGregor> | Sure. |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 22:14 | <AryehGregor> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10062 |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | ta |
| 22:18 | <jgraham> | If I were inclined to use twitter, I might say somthing like "The Ditty Bops!" |
| 22:18 | <jgraham> | That is unusually off topic, even for me |
| 22:19 | <jgraham> | But sometimes you are very excited about things and have to shout about them |
| 22:19 | <jgraham> | spotify:track:1kqTuY7rbpPSOrOjQlumDN for example |
| 22:20 | <jgraham> | You may now return to your regularly scheduled chat |
| 22:50 | <AryehGregor> | Does anyone implement accessKeyLabel? |
| 22:58 | <fagan> | AryehGregor: whats it for? |
| 22:58 | <fagan> | It sounds like it wouldnt be high on the list of things to do |
| 23:00 | <AryehGregor> | It's so you don't need stuff like lines 234 to 250 here: http://svn.wikimedia.org/viewvc/mediawiki/trunk/phase3/skins/common/wikibits.js?revision=68611&view=markup |
| 23:00 | <AryehGregor> | Which is not only tedious, but buggy (e.g., on Firefox it's configurable and we can't detect that). |
| 23:00 | <AryehGregor> | And slow to get updated, since the Chrome code was only added a few days ago. |
| 23:14 | <annevk> | jgraham, you should get twitter |