| 09:49 | <micheil> | Hixie: are you about? |
| 11:53 | <Workshiva> | Re: the BBC article on Friday |
| 11:53 | <Workshiva> | "For this reason we are committed to the aims of HTML5. In combination with CSS3 and Javascript it promises a step forward for the web." |
| 11:53 | <Workshiva> | They actually managed to separate CSS3 from HTML5! |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | oh my god |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | Shelby Moore is back |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | and it just got better |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | "Let me confess that I have only been studying the entire issue of Comet, |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | BOSH, WebSocket, and this mailing list, for a several hours. I came to |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | this from Wikipedia, because I need to choose an architecture strategy for |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | a social network I am developing. So take my comments as one perspective |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | of an outsider (but an outsider with considerable experience in web |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | development and successful commercial software both pre-internet and |
| 12:03 | <annevk5> | post). " |
| 12:04 | <Workshiva> | Several hours, impressive |
| 12:05 | <annevk5> | this stuff is great |
| 12:05 | <annevk5> | and he's already flooding the mailing list |
| 12:06 | <Workshiva> | I'm considering reading the public-html archives for July |
| 12:09 | <annevk5> | "Sorry to drop a Snicker bar in the swimming pool. Maybe someone can set me straight." |
| 12:11 | <annevk5> | context |
| 12:11 | <annevk5> | http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1132620717&count=1 |
| 12:12 | <annevk5> | http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1041735552&count=1 |
| 12:12 | <Workshiva> | It wasn't Snickers |
| 12:12 | <Workshiva> | I wish people would keep their references straight |
| 12:12 | <annevk5> | http://www.glazman.org/weblog/newarchive/2003_01_05_glazblogarc.html#s87008479 |
| 12:13 | <Workshiva> | Commenting on people's names and it's only the second paragraph... hoo boy |
| 12:15 | <Ms2ger> | "This really has to end some time, but I will reply again in detail" |
| 12:15 | <Ms2ger> | Now that's a gem. |
| 12:15 | <annevk5> | I quite like the one about how he works well in multiple dimensions |
| 12:15 | <annevk5> | or when the epiphany happens in your mind |
| 12:15 | <Workshiva> | 'Conflated' |
| 12:17 | <Workshiva> | <princess bride quote/> |
| 12:18 | <Workshiva> | So did he ever release Cool Page 4? |
| 12:20 | <annevk5> | does it matter? |
| 12:20 | <annevk5> | he's obviously amazing |
| 12:21 | <annevk5> | anyway, boarding time |
| 12:21 | <Workshiva> | Well, if it's as cool as he says, I want to use it! |
| 12:21 | <Ms2ger> | Hmm, I missed http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg03198.html |
| 12:24 | <Workshiva> | http://www.cssquirrel.com/comic/?comic=66 |
| 13:17 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Yay! Applying a SEP field worked! |
| 13:19 | <Workshiva> | Eventually you ascend beyond applying to a SEP to considering powering the actual field to be SEP |
| 13:19 | gsnedders | isn't sure his head can think such things yet today |
| 13:21 | <Ms2ger> | Make thinking about it a SEP? |
| 13:23 | <Workshiva> | This talk about meta charset=utf-16 (yes, I'm a month behind) seems like an accident waiting to happen |
| 13:30 | <Workshiva> | "@srcdoc, for the first time, introduces HTML markup into attribute values. This is bad design." |
| 13:30 | <Workshiva> | But the alternative solution, using data: URLs, is of course completely cool |
| 13:33 | <Philip`> | A data: URI isn't markup, it's an identifier of a resource representation that contains markup |
| 13:34 | <Philip`> | Totally different things |
| 13:34 | <Workshiva> | Of course |
| 13:34 | <Workshiva> | That's why it's completely cool |
| 13:35 | <Workshiva> | Wow, that's a lot of mail about @alt in private email |
| 13:45 | Workshiva | wonders how the mimeheads expect servers to be configured to provide correct audio and video codec subparameters in content-type without looking at the file contents |
| 13:49 | <jcranmer> | Workshiva: file ? |
| 13:50 | <Workshiva> | jcranmer: ? |
| 13:51 | <jcranmer> | use the file program |
| 13:51 | <jcranmer> | yes it looks at file contents, but you can assume it's a black box |
| 13:51 | <jcranmer> | and plead operational ig |
| 13:51 | <jcranmer> | norancce |
| 13:51 | <Workshiva> | Sure, but that's still sniffing |
| 13:52 | <jcranmer> | either that, or you require that the filename contains the codec in there |
| 13:53 | <Philip`> | Store the files with metadata |
| 13:53 | <Philip`> | either in the filesystem or in a database or something |
| 13:54 | <erlehmann> | use file extension :P |
| 13:54 | <Philip`> | rather than sticking with the boring old primitive view that one URL = one file on the disk |
| 13:54 | <Workshiva> | Well, you can replace file with resource representation |
| 13:55 | <Philip`> | The representation already has content-type metdata so there's no problem from that point |
| 13:55 | <Workshiva> | We're at the stage where the server is trying to decide what to emit |
| 14:49 | <erlehmann> | Is there a test suite for serving media files? I figured out I had to handle range-requests and send an X-Content-Duration request but am unsure if my ad-hoc webserver is doing it right. |
| 14:50 | <erlehmann> | And having curl as your only validation tool is kinda weak. |
| 14:50 | <Workshiva> | Try redbot.org |
| 14:58 | <erlehmann> | thx, interesting. |
| 15:08 | <erlehmann> | My content-lenght is 248 bytes too long. Everytime. |
| 15:08 | <erlehmann> | o.0 |
| 15:58 | <micheil> | hmm... anne's not here anymore? |
| 16:00 | <Ms2ger> | <annevk5> anyway, boarding time |
| 16:01 | <micheil> | k, I didn't see the part message |
| 16:02 | <micheil> | hmm.. Is someone trying to change the WebSocket protocol further away from where it was starting to head? |
| 16:02 | <micheil> | or, rather proposing a different client-side API? |
| 16:05 | <jgraham> | micheil: no to the secod part. Possiblyt to the first part depending on what you meant |
| 16:05 | <micheil> | well, what's that thing on the hybi list about a) sendTextMessage(char []buffer, int offset, int length); // JavaScript 16-bit text send |
| 16:06 | <micheil> | because the one thing I constantly hear from developers is how easy the client side websocket API is to work with. |
| 16:06 | <jgraham> | micheil: I think that was not about the js-api |
| 16:07 | <micheil> | I actually have a proposal for the client-side api (which is/should be backwards compatible), if we do get a consensus on the binary sending of data |
| 16:07 | <jgraham> | It was examples of possible api styles in general |
| 16:07 | <jgraham> | People seem to be interested in non-js clients |
| 16:07 | <micheil> | I'm thinking to indicate binary data, you would add on a second argument |
| 16:07 | <micheil> | there should be one client side api. |
| 16:08 | <micheil> | no matter what. Because really, why would you need to change it. |
| 16:08 | <jgraham> | micheil: If you build e.g. a python client the api will likely look different |
| 16:08 | <micheil> | not really |
| 16:09 | <jgraham> | micheil: Well python code is not necessarily evented |
| 16:09 | <jgraham> | depending on what you are doing |
| 16:09 | <micheil> | well, the sending on a websocket isn't evented at all. |
| 16:09 | <gsnedders> | To take a more extreme example, a Haskell impl would likely be even more radical |
| 16:09 | <micheil> | it's actually blocking, iirc. |
| 16:09 | <jgraham> | Receiving is also part of the api |
| 16:09 | <micheil> | okay, true, functional programming languages would be different, but an object oriented or similar language would not |
| 16:10 | <micheil> | true |
| 16:10 | <jgraham> | Anyway, in the js case, you don't need any parameters to indicate binary or not |
| 16:10 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: (please don't murder me for mentioning Haskell) |
| 16:10 | <micheil> | yeah, you could use typeof |
| 16:10 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: What? You make no sense |
| 16:10 | <micheil> | (and similar methods) |
| 16:10 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Well every time I've mentioned Haskell on IRC with you around recently… |
| 16:10 | <jgraham> | micheil: in the implementation you just have send(data) |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | and if data is a String you make a text frame and if it is a Blob you make a binary frame |
| 16:11 | <micheil> | currently a thing we do in node.js, is that in order to send non-utf8 data but by storing it as a string, we do something like: |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | s/Blob/BinaryArray/ or whatever |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You still make no sense |
| 16:11 | <micheil> | socket.write("\xff", "binary"); |
| 16:11 | <jgraham> | All I have said is that Haskell has a steep learning curve |
| 16:11 | <micheil> | if the second argument is blank, I believe it'll actually default to UTF8 |
| 16:12 | <micheil> | or ascii |
| 16:12 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Why I would murder you because of that fact is not at all clear |
| 16:12 | <micheil> | which ever is the default set by socket.setEncoding |
| 16:12 | <jgraham> | I don't evcen think it is a controversial statement |
| 16:14 | <micheil> | annevk5: moin. |
| 16:14 | <annevk5> | hey hey |
| 16:15 | <annevk5> | discussion on list is about the wire format (well, apart from the current Shelby Moore entertainment) |
| 16:15 | <annevk5> | the API is unlikely to be affected |
| 16:15 | <micheil> | what's with that, any way? |
| 16:16 | <annevk5> | the wire format? |
| 16:16 | <annevk5> | it seems like we will get something more complicated |
| 16:17 | <micheil> | currently I'm really liking the direction of having a length indicator |
| 16:17 | <annevk5> | mostly due to Google |
| 16:17 | <annevk5> | sure |
| 16:17 | <micheil> | perhaps have two length indicators? The first which is the metadata length, the second which is the message length |
| 16:17 | <micheil> | if that's part of the issue? |
| 16:22 | <micheil> | annevk5: what's the issue google has with the protocol? |
| 16:25 | <annevk5> | they want more features in the initial version essentially |
| 16:26 | <annevk5> | gotta run |
| 16:26 | <micheil> | ouch |
| 16:26 | <micheil> | is there a list of these features? |
| 17:27 | <henrikbjorn> | from what i understand in the spec a <article> dosent have to includ a <header> is that right ? |
| 17:30 | <Ms2ger> | Sounds right |
| 17:30 | <Ms2ger> | You'll probably want a h1, though |
| 18:24 | <henrikbjorn> | Ms2ger: the problem is the article is a comment and comments dont have a headline |
| 18:24 | <Ms2ger> | Then I guess it's fine |