| 01:39 | <ojan> | Hixie: for the record, i'm a big fan of the everything in one page-ness of HTML5 |
| 01:39 | <ojan> | Hixie: makes searching for things so much easier. |
| 01:42 | <Hixie> | ojan: hear hear |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | ojan: i'm vaguely hoping we can import things like XHR into the complete.html file at some point |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | ojan: and maybe the File API specs, DOM Core, CSSOM, etc |
| 01:43 | <ojan> | holy crap. i'm reading the DOM3 core spec for the first time in a while. |
| 01:43 | <ojan> | so many exceptions for things noone would care about. |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | that's a really poorly written spec |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | there's like no MUSTs anywhere |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | for example |
| 01:43 | <ojan> | hah. totally |
| 01:44 | <ojan> | and there's ambiguous cases |
| 01:44 | <ojan> | of which exception you should fire |
| 01:45 | <ojan> | at first glance it seems like a classic case of overgeneralizing instead of focusing on the needs of web pages |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | yes, they were considering Java servers at least as much |
| 01:48 | <boogyman> | <Hixie> ojan: i'm vaguely hoping we can import things like XHR into the complete.html file at some point <---- boo |
| 01:49 | <TabAtkins> | boo? Why? |
| 01:49 | <boogyman> | abstraction isn't evil :P |
| 01:50 | <TabAtkins> | I am unsure of how whether or not XHR shows up in complete.html has any bearing on something's abstraction level. |
| 01:50 | <TabAtkins> | I don't even know what *could* be affected. |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | boogyman: abstraction what? |
| 01:51 | <Hixie> | boogyman: how does it affect abstraction? |
| 01:53 | <boogyman> | hm, maybe I am misinterpreting your statement. can you explain more about importing the XHR |
| 01:54 | <TabAtkins> | You probably understood it correctly. He just means taking the current XHR spec, and making it a section of the HTML5 spec. |
| 01:54 | <TabAtkins> | The question is, what does this make more or less abstract, and how? |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | i just mean have the XHR spec be in complete.html, just like all of HTML and WebStorage and so on is complete.html |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | s/is/are in/ |
| 01:55 | <boogyman> | ah, i was thinking you were talking about the implementation. merging the front-end and backend |
| 01:55 | <TabAtkins> | Now *I* don't understand what you mean. |
| 01:56 | <ojan> | Hixie: i'm a big fan. too many disparate places too look. |
| 01:56 | <boogyman> | just forget it. evidently I was having a brain fart |
| 01:56 | <boogyman> | I agree it should be included int he HTML spec |
| 02:08 | <Hixie> | ojan: yeah |
| 06:18 | <mcarter> | hello |
| 06:52 | <MikeSmith> | mcarter: hei |
| 07:14 | <mcarter> | it feels weird to not come here for ws protocol discussion, now that the IETF has taken it over completely |
| 07:36 | <annevk> | Hixie, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ defines scrollIntoView now |
| 07:45 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: the spec bans <select required><option value selected disabled>Choose one... |
| 07:46 | hsivonen | wonders if some Web compat requirements are violated by allowing a script-inserted external script use a script that was loaded as the result of speculative parsing seeing the same URL in the document source |
| 07:47 | <annevk> | if it's just GET it should be fine |
| 07:47 | <hsivonen> | annevk: if sites don't violate HTTP... |
| 07:47 | <hsivonen> | but yeah |
| 07:48 | <annevk> | it would be pretty weird if it was different a few seconds later |
| 07:48 | <hsivonen> | hmm. our code is suspicious |
| 07:48 | <annevk> | afaict the only metric the server has here is a timestamp |
| 07:49 | <hsivonen> | sicking isn't on IRC :-( |
| 07:49 | <hsivonen> | annevk: also cookies |
| 07:49 | <hsivonen> | but cookies are racy anyway |
| 07:50 | <annevk> | oops, forgot about cookies |
| 08:21 | <kennyluck> | Any reason why "lyrics" is not a kind of <track> now? |
| 08:31 | <Hixie> | kennyluck: what would it do? |
| 08:32 | <Peter`> | It could be a use-case for <track> together with <audio>, although it'd be hard to decide rendering for it |
| 08:33 | <Hixie> | <audio> is <video> with no rendering |
| 08:33 | <Hixie> | if you want rendering, use <video> |
| 08:33 | <Hixie> | (even if your data is audio data) |
| 08:33 | <kennyluck> | Hixie: When you want to learn to sing a song. |
| 08:33 | <kennyluck> | Hixie: Okay. |
| 08:57 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: that means <video> is supposed to accept content of type audio/* in src? |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan_> | virtuelv: yes and it does |
| 08:59 | <virtuelv> | it's not really apparent from, at least, the w3c document |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan_> | virtuelv: what's more, audio/* can contain a video track |
| 09:01 | <Hixie> | virtuelv: the only differences between <video> and <audio> are that <video> has a rendering area (audio does not) and audio has a convenient constructor (video does not) |
| 09:01 | <hsivonen> | if some security mechanism vetoes an external script, should multi-level document.write()s still behave as if the script blocked the parser? |
| 09:02 | <hsivonen> | abarth: I figured out why the uglyducklinghouse blog didn't break in Chromium. (WebKit and Gecko run script-inserted scripts differently) |
| 09:02 | <hsivonen> | Gecko isn't conforming |
| 09:02 | <abarth> | ic |
| 09:02 | <abarth> | btw, i really like syncing tests via html5lib |
| 09:03 | <abarth> | that's working really well for us |
| 09:03 | <abarth> | sorry we haven't added any test cases in a while |
| 09:03 | <virtuelv> | multiple audio tracks for a video stream, is that handled any way yet? |
| 09:03 | <abarth> | i wish there was some way to expand that to more aspects of the platform |
| 09:03 | <hsivonen> | I have started importing the tests, but this script execution thing is more urgent |
| 09:04 | <abarth> | hsivonen: yeah, the extra tests are good for when you've resolved all the issues you know about and you're looking to polish more |
| 09:04 | <zcorpan_> | virtuelv: not really, it's not exposed in any way in the api although the browser could have ui for selecting an audio track |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | the test happily have test cases for problems I know about, too, so I don't need to write tests for those |
| 09:06 | <hsivonen> | Are Content Security Policies being implemented in non-Gecko engines? |
| 09:06 | <annevk> | we thought about it |
| 09:07 | <annevk> | but currently it's rather complex |
| 09:07 | <annevk> | there's some WG starting up about it |
| 09:07 | <hsivonen> | my immediate concern is document.write() semantics when CSP vetoes a document.written external script |
| 09:07 | <abarth> | i'd be interesting in implementing the parts that help with XSS |
| 09:08 | <abarth> | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/CSP/AllowedScripts |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | I think I'm going to preserve existing behavior on that point for now |
| 09:08 | <abarth> | the rest seems mostly uncessary |
| 09:08 | <hsivonen> | even though I'm not sure I like the existing behavior |
| 09:11 | <hsivonen> | fwiw, the existing behavior is that vetoed existing scripts behave like empty inline scripts for document.write() purposes |
| 09:11 | <annevk> | oh god |
| 09:11 | <annevk> | yet another origin-like syntax?! |
| 09:11 | <annevk> | boo |
| 09:11 | <abarth> | oh, i don't care about the syntax |
| 09:11 | <abarth> | i just copied whatever CSP was using at the time |
| 09:12 | <hsivonen> | s/existing/external/ |
| 09:12 | <annevk> | we should just use plain ASCII serialized origins rather than all the wildcard complexity |
| 09:13 | <abarth> | wildcards are a common request for postMessage's targetOrigin |
| 09:14 | <abarth> | personally, i'd rather skip wildcards |
| 09:14 | <annevk> | I had a few for CORS, but nothing strong |
| 09:14 | <abarth> | since folks shouldn't be using that many host names |
| 09:14 | <abarth> | (so slowwwww) |
| 09:14 | <annevk> | CORS used to have complex origin syntax; quite glad we got rid of that at least |
| 09:15 | <abarth> | none / self / * seem to make sense |
| 09:16 | <abarth> | so maybe keep those and origin literals |
| 09:16 | <annevk> | yeah, and use "/" for self just like postMessage() (once Hixie fixed the spec again) |
| 09:16 | <annevk> | or have postMessage use self |
| 09:18 | <abarth> | "/" makes more sense for postmessage |
| 09:18 | <abarth> | since its like a relative URL |
| 09:23 | <abarth> | annevk: ok, done |
| 09:24 | <abarth> | (once the page saves...) |
| 09:24 | <abarth> | there |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | yay |
| 10:10 | <hsivonen> | the lack of mutual understanding of what the spec says over at http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9843 bothers me |
| 10:10 | <hsivonen> | because it might mean that my reading comprehension sucks badly |
| 10:12 | <hsivonen> | I'm unhappy about the ability to move nodes between documents so that the parser inserts stuff into a document that isn't the document the parser is associated with |
| 10:12 | <hsivonen> | I expect there to be bugs in that area |
| 10:13 | <hsivonen> | especially in script execution |
| 10:13 | <hsivonen> | and style sheets blocking scripts |
| 10:13 | <annevk> | wait, how does that happen? |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | ooh, hmm |
| 10:14 | <annevk> | can that really happen? ouch |
| 10:14 | <jgraham> | Moving a script that document.writes? |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | charset registry bah |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | i wish i had some more time |
| 10:22 | <hsivonen> | annevk: <div><script>// move the div to another doc</script><!-- stuff goes into the other doc --> |
| 10:23 | <annevk> | that is some insane trickery |
| 10:23 | <tantek> | yeah that's pretty nuts |
| 10:24 | <tantek> | hsivonen - minor validator.nu bugfix (I hope) when you've got a moment - allowing ins/del datetime to take only a date (not just a datetime) - http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=763 |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | fixed scrollIntoView() some more |
| 10:25 | <hsivonen> | tantek: thanks. |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | oh, Firefox has <input type=url> support |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | no icons, but a red outline when invalid |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | also email |
| 11:07 | <Rik`> | annevk: url, email, search, tel, <output> |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | search has no UI at all? |
| 11:08 | <Rik`> | nope |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | neither has tel |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | seems kind of wrongish |
| 11:09 | <lonimurar> | http://www.google.de/search?q=internet%20explorer%20%22nicht%20implementiert%22 |
| 11:09 | <lonimurar> | please look at the first and second results |
| 11:09 | <lonimurar> | how do I get something like http://mypa.ge > foo > bar |
| 11:09 | <lonimurar> | with foo and bar being actual links |
| 11:10 | <lonimurar> | wait this is the wrong channel, sorry |
| 11:10 | <Rik`> | annevk: well, people always complain about unstylable search in Safari so :) |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | you cannot set -webkit-appearance to none? |
| 11:10 | <annevk> | (horrible property name by the way; always wonder whether I spell it correctly) |
| 11:11 | tantek | is curious to hear what kind of default special UI folks expect from the new input types |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | on a Mac I would expect <input type=search> to look like it does in Safari |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | including the little erase icon |
| 11:12 | <Rik`> | annevk: but I think the coolest stuff implemented is support for @form, @formAction and all |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | form="" does not seem to work for me in latest trunk |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | at least not dynamically |
| 11:18 | <Rik`> | oh yes, haven't tested that before |
| 11:18 | <Rik`> | tantek: btw, I sent you a mail about :-moz-placeholder-visible |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | is there a list of all W3C Editor's Drafts somewhere? |
| 11:26 | <hsivonen> | including Member-confidential ones |
| 11:28 | <hsivonen> | annevk: OTOH, people think the Opera field icons are ugly, so for the adoption of these features, there must be no ugly icons |
| 11:29 | <hsivonen> | alternatively, does the W3C site have a search engine that searches the Member-confidential stuff? |
| 11:36 | <tantek> | Rik` - heh, irc ping about an email about a bug comment. lol. |
| 11:36 | <tantek> | hsivonen - I agree about the no ugly icons |
| 11:36 | <tantek> | and the problem is - any icon might/could look ugly within the context of a particular visual page design |
| 11:37 | <tantek> | Rik` - there's nothing that the extra -visible adds - so shorter is better really |
| 11:37 | <tantek> | the control is in the state of having/being a placeholder |
| 11:40 | <Rik`> | ok thanks, at least I know someone checked my proposition :) |
| 11:40 | <tantek> | np - sorry - email tends to be quite lossy for me. |
| 12:18 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: maybe you could check out the dev.w3.org and www.w3.org repositories |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | hsivonen, yeah, not sure our solution is that great |
| 12:20 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: I guess that's what I would have to do. I just gave up instead. |
| 12:20 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: email a feature request to the webmaster |
| 12:26 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: ok. I emailed site-comments@ |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | why did Hixie change the meaning of <dt>? |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | oh, I'm reading it wrong |
| 15:08 | <miketaylr> | w3c bugzilla is toast |
| 15:09 | <jgraham> | <style type=""></style> -> what is supposed to happen here? Should the contents be treated as CSS or not? |
| 15:09 | jgraham | can't find the relevant UA conformance requirements |
| 15:12 | <jgraham> | OK so spec probably doesn't consider it a supported style langauge |
| 15:12 | <jgraham> | Opera and IE agree with the spec, Gecko and WebKit agree with each other |
| 15:12 | <jgraham> | would be interesting to get data on this |
| 15:14 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: i dislike the :target styling |
| 15:14 | <jgraham> | +1 |
| 15:14 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 15:17 | <cheeser> | bugzilla-- |
| 15:32 | <annevk> | TabAtkins, having getClientRects() differ between CSS and SVG is not good |
| 15:33 | <annevk> | TabAtkins, as I said, we can use another term than border box which is sometimes border box and sometimes bounding box |
| 15:51 | <ReadPlease> | Is this an html5 chan? |
| 15:52 | <hober> | sure |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | nothing to work on |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | unless I'm missing something |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | so either test suites or Web Dom Core |
| 15:59 | <annevk> | or legacy encodings but I really rather wait with that a little longer |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, you around? |
| 16:00 | <zcorpan_> | yep |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, http://simon.html5.org/specs/ has the latest version right? |
| 16:00 | <jgraham> | annevk: You could fix the bug you found in testharness.js |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, I read through it a few times, seems like a sensible start |
| 16:01 | <jgraham> | annevk: gsnedders did some more work on Web DOM Core |
| 16:01 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: no, it's on gsnedders' site somewhere |
| 16:01 | <jgraham> | http://hg.gsnedders.com/web-dom-core/ |
| 16:01 | <annevk> | interesting |
| 16:02 | <annevk> | jgraham, not gonna work on test suites :) |
| 16:03 | <jgraham> | annevk: It is a trivial fix |
| 16:03 | <jgraham> | I would do it but I am not short of things to do |
| 16:03 | <jgraham> | :) |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | i'll fix it once there's some movement on that test suite |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | i've been wondering about pestering vendors about bugs |
| 16:10 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: the styling is nice, IMO |
| 16:13 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: it's distracting me from reading when i click around in the spec |
| 16:19 | <ReadPlease> | uh... |
| 16:19 | <ReadPlease> | alright, cool. |
| 16:20 | <ReadPlease> | I got this thing in google chrome, where if i ctrl-tab right after I click play on a video, then ctrl-shift-tab back, the video is all white. |
| 16:20 | <ReadPlease> | I can hear it playing, but I can't see anything, unless I can highlight the video. |
| 16:20 | <ReadPlease> | If I can highlight the video, I highlight it and then stuff starts showing up, again. |
| 16:25 | <TabAtkins> | ReadPlease: Sounds like a painting bug in Webkit. File a bug with them. |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | Sweets next to computer = badness. |
| 16:35 | <jgraham> | *badass |
| 16:36 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I've done a few things at http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core |
| 16:36 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Based on my copy of the spec or Simon's? |
| 16:37 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, yours |
| 16:37 | <jgraham> | Hah |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | oh sweet |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | do you want to be the editor instead? |
| 16:39 | <Ms2ger> | All yours ;) |
| 16:39 | <jgraham> | Web DOM Core is going to get a reputation for being the slut of spec land; everyone's had a go on it but no one wants commitment |
| 16:41 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Well, the ho has already touched it. |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | how do you hg clone something into an existing repository? |
| 16:44 | <jgraham> | annevk: You don't |
| 16:45 | <annevk> | so should I do something else? |
| 16:45 | <Ms2ger> | hg pull <repo>? |
| 16:46 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: will that work? |
| 16:46 | <jgraham> | annevk: What are you trying to do? |
| 16:47 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, nope |
| 16:47 | <jgraham> | annevk: Why not just clone the repo and edit the default push destination to be something else if that's what you want? |
| 16:48 | <annevk> | i guess the problem is that i'm still working with directories |
| 16:50 | <jgraham> | You want one repo per atomic peice of content |
| 16:53 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, I have to go soonish, but could you help me out with the commandline foo needed for Makefile? :) |
| 16:54 | <Ms2ger> | 1. Get my anolis fork |
| 16:54 | <Ms2ger> | 2. `make` |
| 16:54 | <Ms2ger> | 3. ??? |
| 16:54 | <TabAtkins> | 4. Obligatory profit! |
| 16:55 | <Ms2ger> | 4. Profit^H^H^H^H^H^H You get to be editor of WDC |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | ah |
| 16:55 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: You've forked Anolis? |
| 16:55 | <annevk> | it complaints about anolis |
| 16:56 | <jgraham> | Maybe annevk will take WDC to ISO and make browser members pay thounsands of dollars a copy? |
| 16:58 | <Ms2ger> | http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis |
| 17:00 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, heh, planning on taking over the spec world? :) |
| 17:00 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, quite a nice set of tools |
| 17:00 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, too much time on my hands :) |
| 17:01 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, I have a bitbucket account, maybe you can add me to the project |
| 17:01 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: I guess I should push Anolis2 somewhere… |
| 17:01 | <Ms2ger> | Sure |
| 17:01 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, might as well fix the spec there |
| 17:04 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, done |
| 17:04 | <annevk> | cool |
| 18:43 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: are you around? |
| 18:51 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: yes |
| 18:51 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: you're the one responsible for the script that adds issue markers to the spec, right? |
| 18:52 | <jgraham> | Yeah |
| 18:52 | <othermaciej> | can you get it to not say "Last call for comments" for every marker, at least in the W3C version? |
| 18:52 | <othermaciej> | (since in the W3C context that is not accurate, and having that on every single issue marker doesn't add much) |
| 18:52 | <othermaciej> | as an added bonus, if this is done, we can close HTML WG ISSUE-116 |
| 18:53 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: I guess all things are possible |
| 18:53 | <jgraham> | It is a while since I looked at the code though |
| 18:54 | <othermaciej> | I figure it's probably still easier for you than for someone new to learn how it works |
| 18:55 | <jgraham> | othermaciej: What do you want, exactly? |
| 18:55 | <jgraham> | No status annotations on the W3C version? |
| 18:55 | <jgraham> | just ISSUE markers? |
| 18:55 | <othermaciej> | yes please |
| 18:55 | <jgraham> | OK I guess that will not be so hard |
| 19:15 | <hsivonen> | asmodai: D2D is now on by default in Minefield, so you could be seeing a D2D vs no D2D difference. |
| 19:36 | gsnedders | has for a second time bought tickets to Avenue Q! |
| 19:42 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: did you see it the first time? |
| 20:04 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: ok |
| 20:04 | <asmodai> | hsivonen: will check a nightly tomorrow |
| 20:19 | <dandaman> | hi |
| 20:21 | <dandaman> | I have a site where the height of one of my divs is 100% as to fill the whole screen(for a mobile site). it works fine, problem is, i have a form on it that when you enter an invalid input a little box gets displayed and pushes some stuff down which spills out of the height. Is there a way to make the height reset once the box is displayed so that it will cover everything? |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I missed it the first time as my train was late |
| 20:23 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: So this will be my first time (and probably last time, seeming it closes in London in October) |
| 21:15 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, not sure what timezone you are in, but I'll look at it tomorrow |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, I briefly looked at your stuff before dinner though and it seems like you made quite some progress; so great |
| 21:16 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, and I probably introduced quite some bugs too :) |
| 21:20 | <annevk> | heh |
| 21:21 | <annevk> | we'll sort them out in due course |
| 21:25 | jgraham | loves having tests checked in with the spec |
| 21:29 | <annevk> | well really tests should be written by someone else than the spec writer |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | but you can't have it all |
| 21:30 | <Ms2ger> | If someone else volunteers to write tests, I'm all for it |
| 21:32 | <annevk> | btw, it's really quite awesome that you just took the spec and wrote bits |
| 21:33 | <annevk> | I guess we should make specs more accessible so it's easier for people to fix things |
| 21:37 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, now I filed all Gecko and WebKit bugs I found. |
| 21:38 | <AryehGregor> | I filed as many spec bugs as Gecko plus WebKit combined. |
| 21:38 | <AryehGregor> | (in my reflections test suite) |
| 21:38 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe I'll try filing all the bugs in IE9, just to be fair. |
| 21:38 | <AryehGregor> | Although the Windows 7 machine is in another room. :( |
| 22:27 | <TabAtkins> | dandaman: No. You need flexbox to make things fill all available space. For now, you need script. |
| 22:59 | <llrcombs> | who wants to read some BS? |
| 22:59 | <llrcombs> | http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/compare/mythbusting.aspx ++ http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/compare/default.aspx |
| 23:01 | <AryehGregor> | Hahahaha. |
| 23:01 | <llrcombs> | some of the funniest shit ever |
| 23:03 | <TabAtkins> | Sigh at marketing departments. |
| 23:03 | <AryehGregor> | I think the only accurate thing on the second link is "Manageability". |
| 23:03 | <AryehGregor> | Of course, that's the most important thing to corporate IT departments . . . |
| 23:04 | <AryehGregor> | The "Privacy" entry doesn't even make any sense for Firefox. That also separates the URL and search bars. |
| 23:07 | <llrcombs> | they market IE as if people not using it didn't know they could |
| 23:09 | <gsnedders> | What's IE? |
| 23:09 | <llrcombs> | internet exploder |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | "By default, Internet Explorer 8 separates the address bar and search bar functions to help ensure that what you type in your address bar stays private and isnât shared with anyone" |
| 23:13 | <nessy> | point is: they've lost market share to firefox and chrome and it hurts! |
| 23:13 | <nessy> | yeah, I laughed about that one, too :) |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | i hope someone points out how IE9 is LESS PRIVACY CONSCIOUS when it comes out |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | "MICROSOFT SAYS IE9 REGRESSES PRIVACY" |
| 23:15 | <espadrine> | Well then, I'll drop Chrome: it isn't compatible, it doesn't have tab isolation, developer tools are absent, and it certainly isn't easy to use! Let alone security, which isn't made a feature! |
| 23:16 | <llrcombs> | lol |
| 23:23 | <AryehGregor> | What's wrong with what Hixie quoted? It's considerably less false than most of the rest. |
| 23:23 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway, the list is just something for ignorant IE defenders to present to anyone who suggests they switch. |
| 23:23 | <hdhoang> | AIUI, IE9 merges them |
| 23:24 | <AryehGregor> | It's not meant to convince anyone. |
| 23:24 | <AryehGregor> | Just to provide plausible deniability. |
| 23:24 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Hixie typed it and then followed it up with the fact that IE9 uses the single bar like everyone else. |
| 23:24 | <AryehGregor> | I thought no IE9 UI details were announced? |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | you're not up to date with yet leaks mah boy :-) |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | er, "yer leaks" |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | i can't even fake accents when typing |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | i suck |
| 23:25 | <AryehGregor> | I saw mention of a leak, but I thought it wasn't really credible. |
| 23:26 | <Hixie> | what, you think microsoft faked their own screenshot that they then pulled down? :-) |
| 23:26 | <AryehGregor> | Possibly. |
| 23:27 | <AryehGregor> | The analysis I looked at observed that the contents of the browser window seemed incongruous as to what date it was taken at, so they suggested maybe it was a mockup. |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | why pull it down then? |
| 23:27 | <llrcombs> | is JScript getting more similar to JavaScript? |
| 23:28 | <AryehGregor> | I don't know. |
| 23:28 | <llrcombs> | maybe in IE13, you'll be able to write JS to-spec that works in WK+Gecko and it'll work in IE too! |
| 23:28 | <AryehGregor> | The beta's out in like two weeks, we'll see. |
| 23:28 | <AryehGregor> | llrcombs, you didn't see their lengthy blog posts about how they're ES5 conformant and have removed lots of IE-only features? |
| 23:28 | <AryehGregor> | IE9 is going to be a *huge* step forward in web compat. |
| 23:29 | <AryehGregor> | Although that's not saying much, for IE. |
| 23:29 | <llrcombs> | so I've heard |
| 23:29 | <llrcombs> | but I'd expect that they've still managed to screw up somehow |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | IE6, 7, and 8 were all huge steps forward too |
| 23:29 | <llrcombs> | wait, it didn't support CSS backgrounds or borders before? |
| 23:29 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, true. |
| 23:29 | <Rik`> | so far, the only screw up people noticed is dropping XP support |
| 23:29 | <llrcombs> | @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_9 |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | they release browsers so rarely that they have to make huge steps forward just to keep up |
| 23:30 | <AryehGregor> | Not CSS3 backgrounds and borders. |
| 23:30 | <AryehGregor> | IE8 was fully CSS2.1-compliant. For real AFAICT, not just as a marketing bullet. |
| 23:30 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, true. |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | "fully CSS2.1-compliant" is meaningless |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | i guarantee i could find a CSS2.1 bug in IE8. |
| 23:30 | llrcombs | wishes Apple released minor Safari versions a bit more often |
| 23:31 | <AryehGregor> | I believe I read a Slashdot comment by bzbarsky saying that he thought IE8 had a CSS2.1 implementation at least as conformant as anyone's. |
| 23:31 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, nothing is *perfect*. But it's as good as the other browsers if not better. |
| 23:31 | <TabAtkins> | IE8's 2.1 impl is, as far as I know, equal or better than everyone else's. |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | that's possible |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | but that's nothing like "fully" :-) |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | IE6's CSS1 impl was equal or better than everyone else's too |
| 23:32 | <aho> | back then |
| 23:32 | <aho> | 9 years ago |
| 23:32 | <aho> | :> |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 23:32 | <Rik`> | http://jhop.me/ie8-bugs |
| 23:32 | <aho> | i still have to support that pos btw :_ |
| 23:34 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, but IE7's CSS was terrible compared to the competition. |
| 23:34 | <llrcombs> | I mean, WebKit has something new every day (at least), be it a bugfix or a new feature |
| 23:34 | <Rik`> | IE8 was a huge step forward but it was more like building a foundation for improvements |
| 23:34 | <llrcombs> | Safari's updated less than monthly |
| 23:35 | <llrcombs> | so most people don't get WebKit's new stuff for a while |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: well yeah, they worked on it for 6 months when everyone else had spent 6 years on it |
| 23:35 | <Rik`> | llrcombs: same for every engine |
| 23:35 | <llrcombs> | Google's fairly nice about pushing out Chrome updates |
| 23:35 | <Rik`> | I'm not sure I'd call it "nice" |
| 23:35 | <aho> | i really like those 2 minutes of awkward silence my comment has caused :>~ |
| 23:35 | <llrcombs> | well, updates go out more often than most |
| 23:36 | <Rik`> | yes and mistakes too |
| 23:36 | <AryehGregor> | Chrome is great. |
| 23:36 | <AryehGregor> | Are there many glitches that get through to Chrome stable? |
| 23:36 | <aho> | ff4 looks pretty nice too |
| 23:36 | <aho> | (+the new firebug... it's fast!) |
| 23:36 | <Rik`> | AryehGregor: the state of form validation was |
| 23:36 | <AryehGregor> | They release a new version every six weeks now, but any given feature is likely to spend more than that being tested in beta and dev, as I understand it. |
| 23:37 | <AryehGregor> | Rik`, that was a Safari bug too. |
| 23:37 | <Rik`> | yes |
| 23:37 | <llrcombs> | Rik`: that was a WebKit issue |
| 23:37 | <Rik`> | but a pretty big one… |
| 23:37 | <llrcombs> | they pulled it |
| 23:37 | <llrcombs> | the WK team |
| 23:37 | <AryehGregor> | But it's fixed in Chrome, right? |
| 23:37 | <llrcombs> | no |
| 23:37 | <llrcombs> | pulled altogether |
| 23:37 | <AryehGregor> | That's what I meant. |
| 23:37 | <llrcombs> | the feature's gone from WK |
| 23:37 | <AryehGregor> | I was the one who reported that bug, you know. :P |
| 23:37 | <AryehGregor> | No, it's just disabled. |
| 23:37 | <llrcombs> | I hope they re-add it with a workable implementation |
| 23:37 | <llrcombs> | well, pulled from usability |
| 23:38 | <llrcombs> | you get the picture |
| 23:38 | <AryehGregor> | They will. It's still there, just disabled until there's UI. |
| 23:38 | <llrcombs> | ahh, nice! |
| 23:38 | <AryehGregor> | I was banging on them about that bug for weeks before they pulled it. |
| 23:38 | <llrcombs> | I was the one that filed the bug to add a volume control in <video> |
| 23:38 | <AryehGregor> | http://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=45804 |
| 23:39 | <llrcombs> | what'd you file it with Chromium for? |
| 23:39 | <llrcombs> | that's a pet peeve of mine |
| 23:39 | <AryehGregor> | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40747 |
| 23:39 | <AryehGregor> | I filed it with Chromium first because I didn't have Safari handy to test in. |
| 23:39 | <llrcombs> | people who either a. file bugs with Chromium that should be in WebKit |
| 23:39 | <AryehGregor> | So couldn't initially confirm where it was. |
| 23:40 | <AryehGregor> | Fixed: July 27. My first bug filed: June 3. |
| 23:40 | <llrcombs> | and b. post in blogs about how WK (or other software) needs such-and-such new feature or bugfix, but never file a bug |
| 23:40 | <AryehGregor> | As it turned out, the one doing the work was Tamura Kent, who's with Chromium anyway, so he saw it. |
| 23:40 | <AryehGregor> | My WebKit bug was filed less than two weeks later anyway. |
| 23:40 | <llrcombs> | there were several blog posts which, at some point, asked for a volume control in WebKit <video> |
| 23:40 | <llrcombs> | dating back months |
| 23:41 | <llrcombs> | I filed a bug, it was fixed in.. how long was it? |
| 23:41 | <llrcombs> | lemme check |
| 23:41 | <aho> | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22500 <- filed that boring one... no one cared :_ |
| 23:43 | <Rik`> | AryehGregor: this bug was kind of big |
| 23:44 | <Rik`> | I mean, while you implement it, you'll see it |
| 23:44 | <AryehGregor> | The interactive validation thing? |
| 23:44 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, it was completely ridiculous. |
| 23:44 | <AryehGregor> | tkent thought it was acceptable for some reason. |
| 23:44 | <AryehGregor> | I still have no idea why. |
| 23:44 | <AryehGregor> | Every other WebKit person I asked seemed to think it was a bad idea, but not enough to actually ensure that it got fixed. |
| 23:45 | <AryehGregor> | At least not until it made it into major releases. |
| 23:45 | <AryehGregor> | It's going to destroy the utility of HTML5 form validation stuff. |
| 23:45 | <Rik`> | I don't even understand how Apple let it pass through QA |
| 23:45 | <AryehGregor> | I had to completely disable all of it for MediaWiki. |
| 23:45 | <AryehGregor> | Because practically no sites use the attributes. |
| 23:45 | <Rik`> | well, mediawiki is kind of used |
| 23:46 | <AryehGregor> | It was only in trunk versions. |
| 23:46 | <Rik`> | Facebook uses required too |
| 23:46 | <Rik`> | (don't know when they added it) |
| 23:46 | <Rik`> | anyway, I mean it's freaking obvious you're gonna break sites |
| 23:47 | <Rik`> | so yeah, Chrome is "cool" |
| 23:48 | <AryehGregor> | But in this case, the fast release cycle works to everyone's advantage. Since the fix will be pushed out quickly. |
| 23:48 | <AryehGregor> | Safari 5 got the breakage too. |
| 23:48 | <AryehGregor> | But won't get the fix so quickly. |
| 23:49 | <Rik`> | isn't it already fixed ? |
| 23:49 | <AryehGregor> | Actually, I expect Chrome probably already has the fix. |
| 23:49 | <Rik`> | in a minor version ? |
| 23:49 | <AryehGregor> | Is it? |
| 23:49 | <AryehGregor> | I don't know. |
| 23:49 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway, slow release cycles don't help you if your QA isn't more rigorous. |
| 23:49 | <AryehGregor> | QA is really orthogonal to release speed. |
| 23:50 | <AryehGregor> | Chrome makes it really easy to use experimental versions, that's one thing I like about it. |
| 23:51 | <llrcombs> | power's out! |
| 23:51 | <Rik`> | no, Safari is not fixed yet… |
| 23:51 | <Rik`> | great for moving forward… |