| 07:22 | <boblet> | Hey all, anyone know what’s up with Flexbox, Template Layout and Grid Positioning CSS3 modules? Are all being actively developed? Are all expected to continue? |
| 08:34 | <annevk> | jgraham, you around? |
| 08:37 | <annevk> | jgraham, function assert throws a new AssertionError, but what is catching that? |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | jgraham, your script is fucking complicated |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | jgraham, I put an hour into debugging this assert_throws madness but no luck |
| 09:34 | <annevk> | jgraham, too much functions invoking each other and all kinds of crazyness |
| 09:36 | <annevk> | jgraham, I did found some smallish bugs |
| 09:40 | <annevk> | btw, rather than <?xbl?> maybe we should have <html binding=""> instead? |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | (or maybe name it bindings as it presumably takes a space-separated list) |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | jgraham, we should have some more discussion on the framework |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | jgraham, http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/changeset/d5e2a858a519 has the minor fixes |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | prolly away most of the day -- trying to get back to Oslo |
| 10:22 | <jgraham> | Wow I missed anne by || that much |
| 11:08 | <jgraham> | Oh it was a simple bug |
| 12:18 | <jgraham> | I pushed the fix to W3C repository BTW |
| 14:21 | <espadrine> | I'm confused about "new Image(undefined,undefined);" |
| 14:21 | <espadrine> | Firefox, Chrome, Opera all do something different |
| 14:21 | <espadrine> | Firefox fires an error, Chrome turns undefined into the number 0, Opera treats this as new Image(). |
| 14:21 | <espadrine> | Which one is right? |
| 15:14 | <Damark> | Hey |
| 15:14 | <Damark> | I want help |
| 15:15 | <gsnedders> | espadrine: I think, if I'm understanding WebIDL correctly, Chrome is correct |
| 15:15 | <gsnedders> | Damark: Then ask. |
| 15:16 | <Damark> | i need shells please |
| 15:18 | <jgraham> | Damark: I assume you are not talking about Mario Kart, but can't really work out what you might be talking about |
| 15:19 | <jgraham> | annevk: see logs |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | sure |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | might grab some food first |
| 15:19 | <jgraham> | annevk: np |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | just arrived at heathrow |
| 15:19 | <jgraham> | annevk: Fix pushed to W3C repository |
| 15:19 | <jgraham> | ah |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | k |
| 15:19 | <jgraham> | Simple bug that I should find a generic solution for |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | did you see my fixes? |
| 15:20 | <jgraham> | The template stuff requires explicit string conversions everywhere at the moment |
| 15:20 | <jgraham> | Or it just dies in confusing ways |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | i figured something went wrong with that |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | but I couldn't find it |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | it's a maze of functions |
| 15:20 | <jgraham> | I fixed this one instance but it whould probably be fixed in more places |
| 15:21 | <annevk> | i wonder if we can simplify it somehow |
| 15:21 | <annevk> | less elegant but more clear or some such :) |
| 15:23 | <jgraham> | Maybe :) |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | i'm mostly worried about you being the only person that can fix "simple bugs" :) |
| 15:28 | <jgraham> | So am I :) |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | jgraham, the error message is still incorrect btw |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | oh maybe not |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | never mind |
| 15:46 | <boblet> | annevk: yt? |
| 15:46 | <annevk> | yup |
| 15:46 | <boblet> | re: CSS3 layout modules, I’m wondering how they’re going — are all being actively developed? Are all expected to continue? |
| 15:47 | <annevk> | flexbox seems like it will happen in some form |
| 15:47 | <annevk> | not sure about any of the others |
| 15:48 | <boblet> | I guess having implementation is a big help |
| 15:49 | <annevk> | sure |
| 15:50 | <boblet> | I perceive flexbox as being good for web app interfaces, would that be right? also would grid positioning & template layout be better (in certain cases) for more web page content layout |
| 15:50 | <boblet> | ? |
| 15:54 | <annevk> | flexbox can be used for web page layout as well |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | I haven't studied layout models enough to give a really good answer, though according to Tab (iirc) most should be doable with flexbox |
| 15:57 | <boblet> | annevk: ok. yeah I know flexbox should work for everything, but was wondering if setting up a page layout for content would be easier with the others, or what the different strengths of each one were. Maybe I should ping Tab :) |
| 15:57 | <boblet> | annevk: thanks for your help yo |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | jgraham, ms2ger had this feature request: http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/issue/1/make-assert_throws-do-an-instanceof-domexception |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | jgraham, of course that does not work for ECMAScript exceptions |
| 16:18 | <jgraham> | Sure but one could assume that anything with a code is a DOMException |
| 16:19 | <jgraham> | So it should be rather easy to implement I think |
| 16:21 | <annevk> | what might also be nice is adding a check for e.name |
| 16:21 | <annevk> | e.name == arg basically |
| 16:32 | <annevk> | wait, why does getElementsByTagName match on local name for HTML elements? I doubt that's true |
| 18:24 | gsnedders | wonders if you could write a generic runner for JS tests (for HTML5) using Watir |
| 18:24 | gsnedders | wonders if Watir works with IE9/Fx4/WebKit ToT |
| 18:34 | <jarib> | gsnedders: basically just opening a list of URLs? |
| 18:35 | <jarib> | i'd recommend looking at watir-webdriver instead, but i'm biased :) |
| 18:35 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Why would you bother? |
| 18:35 | <jgraham> | To avoid the problems of <iframe>s |
| 18:35 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 19:17 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Process everything and come up with something listing tests that fail in all browsers too, for example |
| 19:17 | <gsnedders> | jarib: And read the DOM |
| 19:20 | <jarib> | gsnedders: watir doesn't support any webkit browsers, and its firefox support is pretty shaky (especially now when Jssh is being EOLed) |
| 19:21 | <gsnedders> | jarib: Ah, I thought the status of both of those was better than that |
| 19:25 | <jarib> | webdriver supports IE (though I haven't tested in IE9), chrome (though a rewritten driver just landed in the chromium tree), and firefox (Fx4 support just landed in trunk). a safari driver is under development |
| 19:25 | <jarib> | you might want to look at the selenium-webdriver gem to use that from ruby directly |
| 19:25 | <gsnedders> | webdriver can't actually access the DOM, though, right? |
| 19:26 | <jarib> | watir-webdriver is a watir wrapper around the selenium-webdriver gem |
| 19:26 | <jarib> | it can |
| 19:26 | <jarib> | the watir api is just more high level |
| 19:28 | <jarib> | i maintain both of those gems, feel free to pm/email me if you need any assistance |
| 19:40 | <Lachy> | Hixie, Requiem 1.9.7 has been released now. It should work for iTunes 9.2.1. Won't work for iTunes 10, if you've upgraded already |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | jarib: Assistance is only useful if I reach the point of bothering to automate them in the general case :P |
| 19:49 | <jarib> | yep. don't think i can help you reach that point :) |
| 19:50 | <jarib> | out of curiosity though, what tests are you referring to? |
| 19:50 | <gsnedders> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/ |
| 19:52 | <jarib> | thanks |
| 19:54 | AryehGregor | discovers that fall classes start in two days, drat |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | heh |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | I have another two weeks till that panic |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | But then it'll be like, "uh, studying? I stopped doing that before when I realized I hated that. Why am I here?" |
| 19:58 | <AryehGregor> | I was hoping to finish up my reflection test cases and submit them to the W3C before school started. |
| 19:58 | <AryehGregor> | Well, with luck I'll be able to do that before I have too much coursework to do. |
| 19:59 | <AryehGregor> | (not to mention all the other things I planned to do . . .) |
| 20:11 | <Hixie> | Lachy: k |
| 21:03 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Except for special cases loading tests in an iframe should work rather well, no? |
| 21:04 | <jgraham> | The special cases being things that require a top-level browsing context |
| 21:04 | <jgraham> | In fact I was somewhat under the impression that that was what the Microsoft thing already did |
| 21:04 | <jgraham> | Although I confess I haven't really looked at it hard |
| 21:07 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: But then you have to then aggregate the results from different browsers separately |
| 21:07 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: That doesn't seem like a problem, really |
| 21:08 | <jgraham> | This isn't like the CSS case where you have thousands of manual tests |
| 21:08 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Indeed |
| 21:08 | <gsnedders> | But it's still more work than it need be |
| 21:08 | <jgraham> | in the ideal case you open the browser, start the testsuite, it generates a json file of all the results for you |
| 21:08 | gsnedders | tries scanning some of his old 35mm film |
| 21:08 | <AryehGregor> | CSS has thousands of manual tests? Yikes. |
| 21:09 | <jgraham> | CSS2.1 does |
| 21:09 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Almost all of them are visual tests |
| 21:09 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, so you can just skim through to see what's green? |
| 21:09 | <jgraham> | For CSS 3 they will mostly use reftests which can be auomated more easilly |
| 21:09 | <AryehGregor> | (unless you're color-blind, oh well) |
| 21:09 | <AryehGregor> | Yay reftests. |
| 21:09 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Well, yeha. But it's really way more time-consuming than that. |
| 21:10 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: MS guy in the F2F said it took 16 hours for all the HTML copies for one browser. There are XHTML copies of all the tests too. |
| 21:10 | <jgraham> | although browsers don't generally expose a consistent API for taking a screenshot so it is non-trivial to make a reftest harness |
| 21:10 | <gsnedders> | So the full testsuite would take 32 hours to run. |
| 21:10 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, but that could be standardized pretty easily. |
| 21:10 | <AryehGregor> | At least in privileged contexts. |
| 21:10 | <jgraham> | that would be good |
| 21:11 | gsnedders | wants to get around 800 tests in the CSS 2.1 testsuite coverted to reftests in the next week |
| 21:13 | <gsnedders> | (there are around 9k) |
| 21:13 | <gsnedders> | (source files, that is) |
| 21:13 | <gsnedders> | (then there are generated from that 9k HTML copies) |
| 21:13 | <Philip`_> | AryehGregor: That sounds like it probably wouldn't help in the case of e.g. mobile browsers (when you're not a developer of that browser, e.g. you're someone who just wants to check standards compliance) |
| 21:13 | <gsnedders> | (but all that matters is the number of source files) |
| 21:14 | <Philip`_> | AryehGregor: or at least it doesn't sound pretty easy to standardise and implement in that context |
| 21:15 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`_, the obvious thing would be to just do a screenshot API that only works if nothing in the page is cross-domain. Is there any reason you know of not to do that? |
| 21:15 | <AryehGregor> | It would probably have other applications too. |
| 21:16 | <Philip`_> | AryehGregor: That seems unsafe for non-privileged code, because you could do stuff like read vlink colours |
| 21:16 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, bleh. |
| 21:17 | <Philip`_> | and the text in <input type=file>s etc |
| 21:17 | <AryehGregor> | I guess so. |
| 21:17 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe you could have a command-line flag where the browser will retrieve a URL, execute it non-interactively with a fresh profile with the screenshot feature enabled, and spit out a result. |
| 21:18 | <Philip`_> | Same issues as with exposing Mozilla's context2d.drawWindow to web content |
| 21:19 | <AryehGregor> | If you can get the user to type an arbitrary command line, you can pwn them anyway, right? |
| 21:19 | <Philip`_> | Does a command-line flag help if you want to test the browser on your mobile phone which doesn't have a command line? |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | Mobile browsers are so hopelessly broken anyway that they can be set aside for now. |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | Perfect is the enemy of good, you know. |
| 21:23 | <Philip`_> | It could be e.g. Opera on Wii, which probably isn't hopelessly broken, where some user wants to run the test suite to see how well they can rely on various features |
| 21:23 | <Philip`_> | and reftests would be less useful than some other pure JS style of testing |
| 21:24 | <gsnedders> | Philip`_: It does use Presto 1, so I expect it isn't exactly bug-free wrt stuff fixed in the past few years |
| 21:24 | <AryehGregor> | It doesn't have to be command-line. Every browser just has to provide some reasonably secure way to expose the functionality. |
| 21:24 | <AryehGregor> | You could try exposing this to non-privileged JS, but it would be a minefield. |
| 21:25 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Presto 2.1 and above with Scope protocol? |
| 21:25 | <gsnedders> | (or maybe the screenshot API was only added later) |
| 21:25 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe? |
| 21:26 | <gsnedders> | STP/1 certainly supports screenshots being taken |
| 21:26 | <gsnedders> | http://dragonfly.opera.com/app/scope-interface/services/Exec/Exec_2_0.html#setupscreenwatcher |
| 22:21 | <TheLifelessOne> | Soo |