| 00:45 | <Philip`> | Oh, it's October already? |
| 00:45 | <Philip`> | For some reason I thought that was tomorrow |
| 00:46 | <Philip`> | I guess that's why everyone's been filing bugs today |
| 00:53 | <Aleoss> | Phillip`: Depends where you live. Where I'm from (Canada) it is still September. You are obviously from somewhere in Europe or Asia. |
| 01:37 | <WillPittenger> | I created a HTML5 audio tag on the fly with JS. Can I assume that if I change the SRC attribute, the browser will reset it? (That is, play the new URL?) |
| 01:53 | <WillPittenger> | Well, never mind. |
| 04:14 | <dominicdinada> | question about some http banners etc? |
| 04:29 | <ashaw> | The am implementing big integer multiplication in javascript and was wondering if there was a way to speed this code, as it runs much slower than other native code converted to JS. |
| 04:29 | <ashaw> | http://pastie.org/1192649 |
| 04:34 | <ashaw> | hello |
| 08:30 | <hsivonen> | whoa! JF requested adding DRM to <video>. How sad. |
| 08:36 | <hsivonen> | the allegation made in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10904 is even more obviously BS |
| 08:38 | <annevk> | I wonder what the idea behind those bugs were |
| 08:40 | <annevk> | http://x264dev.multimedia.cx/?p=541 -- WebP analysis |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | If Google wants to unseat JPEG, why don't they support JPEG XR? Is JPEG XR not royalty-free? |
| 08:59 | <annevk> | JPEG XR is per Wikipedia |
| 08:59 | <hsivonen> | By default, I'm rather skeptical of all attempts to unseat JPEG. |
| 09:00 | <hsivonen> | because the claims made about JPEG 2000 turned out to be bogus when I tried to verify the claims myself |
| 09:02 | <hsivonen> | (that is, when I tried to verify them with shipped software which was what authors could have realistically used) |
| 09:03 | <hsivonen> | (I know nothing about the theoretical potential of JPEG 2000 compared to the theoretical potential of JPEG) |
| 09:34 | <jgraham> | Well happy bugspam day, everyone |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | it's also mailman day |
| 09:37 | <annevk> | double joy |
| 09:37 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: I felt pretty accomplished when I got through bugmail before lunch |
| 09:38 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Wow, dedication |
| 09:38 | annevk | sometimes forgets hsivonen is an hour ahead |
| 09:38 | <jgraham> | I'm not even sure I knew that |
| 09:39 | <jgraham> | Finland is a different timezone? |
| 09:39 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: yes, Sweden and Spain can be in the same time zone but somehow Portugal and Finland can't |
| 09:40 | <jgraham> | Fun |
| 09:40 | <hsivonen> | apparently *that* would strech things too much |
| 09:41 | <jgraham> | Arguably its bizzare that Spain isn't using GMT |
| 09:48 | <annevk> | or the UK is bizarre |
| 09:50 | <jgraham> | Hmm? Since the timezones are centered on the UK we must be right by definition :) |
| 09:53 | <hsivonen> | l'heure de Paris won the market share battle |
| 09:54 | <hsivonen> | (cue Tintin and using Paris for the zero meridian, too, for epic incompatibility) |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46936 -- this would at least decouple them somewhat more from DOM Level 3 Core |
| 10:34 | <annevk> | euh, Web DOM Core |
| 11:03 | <Rich_Clark> | Hey Guys, who can tell me about <s>? Does the 's' stand for 'strike-through'? |
| 11:04 | <Peter`> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-s-element |
| 11:04 | <Rich_Clark> | and both <s> and <strike> were 'absent' from HTML5 so why is it back in? |
| 11:05 | <Rich_Clark> | @Peter seen that yeah but I wondering what the 's' stands for |
| 11:05 | <Peter`> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9429 |
| 11:06 | <Peter`> | sorry for just giving links, searching around myself |
| 11:08 | <Peter`> | it seems to just be <s>trike |
| 11:12 | <Rich_Clark> | yeah, thanks peter |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | maybe validators should warn about UTF-16 in general |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | I also fail to see how http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10890 is an "i18n issue" -- seems more like a preference of someone |
| 11:25 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'd be OK with warning about UTF-16 |
| 11:25 | <hsivonen> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=599320 for the latest UTF-16 awesomeness |
| 11:28 | <MikeSmith> | do we have a "don't use UTF-16 on the Web" FAQ around somewhere? |
| 11:29 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: instead, the i18n group maintains advice pages on w3.org that say how to use UTF-16 |
| 11:29 | <hsivonen> | which to a reader implies that using UTF-16 is OK |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, I wrote up http://annevankesteren.nl/2009/09/utf-8-reasons at some point |
| 11:31 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah, I know… I need to talk with RIchard Ishida about this |
| 11:34 | <annevk> | hsivonen, would fixing that not break something else? I guess it wouldn't since UTF-16 is always identified properly |
| 11:34 | <annevk> | hsivonen, I guess that's another case where you want to replace UTF-16 with UTF-8 or some such... |
| 11:48 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I don't know if fixing the inheritance bug would break something else, but clearly it's always dangerous to have a tentative encoding that's not a rough ASCII superset |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | annevk: though we can get into that situation with chardet, too |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | but if chardet sniffs something as UTF-16, chances are it really is |
| 11:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: did I perform the escalation mechanics correctly in http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10589 ? |
| 12:07 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yep |
| 12:20 | <hsivonen> | whoa. It seems I'm empowered to create a new issue. Should I just go ahead and do it myself? |
| 12:21 | <hsivonen> | the Decision Process says I'm allowed to do it |
| 12:22 | <hsivonen> | Done |
| 12:30 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: yeah, DIY tracker-issue creation is the preferred means |
| 12:32 | <MikeSmith> | the TrackerRequest keyword mechanism was originally just intended for people who aren't members of the group |
| 12:59 | <MikeSmith> | eighty4: |
| 12:59 | <MikeSmith> | oops |
| 13:00 | <MikeSmith> | (ignore that -- fat-fingered) |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | why has http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html such a confusing style sheet? |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | i.e. every third row colored... |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | I thought the important rows were colored for a moment |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: dunno, but Sam would seem to be the one to ask |
| 13:04 | <MikeSmith> | http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/status/status.css |
| 13:04 | <annevk> | yeah, that's how I found out |
| 13:08 | <hsivonen> | it's now been two months since the versioning poll closed... |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | maybe they felt uncomfortable making a decision with Larry on vacation |
| 13:11 | <hsivonen> | dunno. |
| 13:11 | <annevk> | me neither |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | but it seems to me it was more relevant to have the poll open while Larry wasn't on vacation |
| 13:12 | <hsivonen> | I mean, after the Chairs hand down a Decision, you aren't supposed to discuss anymore |
| 13:25 | <annevk> | So how did the dragon get so big so fast in Sintel? |
| 13:42 | eighty4 | ignores nothing! |
| 13:42 | <jcranmer> | ignore that |
| 13:47 | <loucapo> | hey everyone, anyone here have experience with cross origin xmlhttp in FF? |
| 13:50 | <loucapo> | for some reason the code that annevk helped me work through the other day is functional in chrome and safari, but I cant get Firefox working…even in the nightlies. |
| 13:52 | <Rik`> | loucapo: have you checked https://developer.mozilla.org/En/HTTP_Access_Control ? |
| 13:52 | <loucapo> | yup |
| 13:52 | <loucapo> | i am not see anything obviously different |
| 13:57 | <annevk> | loucapo, Firefox has a bug |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | loucapo, as I expected |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | loucapo, see the patches from sicking in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=597301 which hopefully means the issues will be resolved before Firefox 4 |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | that contenteditable test suite is pretty sweet |
| 14:13 | <loucapo> | annevk, interesting and thanks for that. i guess its 200 only for Firefox for the time being. |
| 15:23 | <annevk> | hmm, even Denon receivers require firmware updates these days |
| 15:23 | <annevk> | takes bloody long too |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | and lets not discuss the UI |
| 15:24 | <zcorpan> | do receivers have a web browser these days? |
| 15:26 | <annevk> | it actually comes with support for some web services, but I believe it is all hardcoded and terrible (haven't played with it yet) |
| 15:26 | <annevk> | supposedly Live.fm, Flickr, various internet radio stations, and some other stuff |
| 15:31 | <annevk> | still updating |
| 15:31 | <annevk> | it has said 01min for a long time now |
| 15:32 | <annevk> | though something is still moving, I guess that's supposed to tell me it hasn't crashed yet |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | ooh, it's on again |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | and started playing music -- scared me |
| 15:45 | <jgraham> | flickr integration? What does that do? |
| 15:46 | <virtuelv> | this thread is depressing |
| 15:46 | <virtuelv> | http://www.reddit.com/r/web_design/comments/dl2ek/til_what_exactly_xhtml_is/ |
| 15:46 | <virtuelv> | «Unfortunately, Ian Hickson is persistent and insane» |
| 15:48 | <Philip`> | Change that to "Fortunately" and I'd agree |
| 16:03 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: actually i think the spec says <track kind=descriptions> means synthesized audio |
| 16:04 | <zcorpan> | or if the kind="" was called somethign else |
| 16:14 | <jgraham> | virtuelv: Unfortunately, random people on the internet can't be relied on to correlate their strength of their assertions with their actual domain knowledge |
| 17:20 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: Ah, right you are. |
| 17:50 | <mven> | TITLE: Chile miners request female trainer |
| 17:51 | <TabAtkins> | ...?_? |
| 17:51 | <mven> | IMAGE: Group pic of Chile miners with no shirts and the pic is waist up |
| 17:51 | <mven> | crap |
| 17:51 | <mven> | sorry wrong channel :( |
| 17:51 | <TabAtkins> | kk |
| 17:56 | <Aleoss> | That reminds me of that time I put a dos-look-alike script URL to #linux. :P |
| 17:57 | <mven> | heh |
| 17:57 | <Aleoss> | If anyone is wondering what I'm describing.. http://aleoss.ath.cx/domain/ |
| 17:58 | <Aleoss> | They were annoyed but not too annoyed since it is the latest HTML and is completely valid. |
| 17:58 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, you don't seem to handle getComputedStyle(null) |
| 18:00 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, that depends on Web IDL |
| 18:00 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, or you mean it does something special? |
| 18:01 | <Ms2ger> | You mean you're waiting for [NoNull]? |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | the new plan is to require ? if you want null |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | rather than having host objects always be nullable |
| 18:02 | <Ms2ger> | Really? That kinda sucks |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | it's way better imo |
| 18:27 | <mven> | wow. webp shows some pretty good compression |
| 18:28 | <mven> | http://code.google.com/speed/webp/gallery.html |
| 18:31 | <Aleoss> | mven: I am not sure what that site is trying to say, I looked at the file sizes and the .jpg is smaller than the .png |
| 18:32 | <Aleoss> | Like where did they bull these sizes from? They're made up or something. |
| 18:32 | <mven> | yea i'm a bit confused. but i think they state its in a png container right now since browsers cant support webp |
| 18:33 | <mven> | does a container create that much overhead to explain the added kb ? |
| 18:33 | <annevk> | PNG is losless |
| 18:33 | <annevk> | so way bigger |
| 18:33 | <mven> | ah right |
| 18:33 | <Aleoss> | That is correct. |
| 18:34 | <mven> | how long before IE supports RIFF |
| 18:34 | mven | chuckles |
| 18:34 | <Aleoss> | Even if IE does go and support it, nobody will use it for years because companies use older browsers of IE. |
| 18:35 | <Philip`> | Microsoft was the originator of RIFF |
| 18:35 | <mven> | yea. lots of corps still using IE6. sucks. |
| 18:35 | <mven> | well IBM and MSFT developed it |
| 18:36 | <mven> | but doesn't necessarily predict it would have support in IE. I couldn't find anything on google for a browser compatability list. |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10345 are these all "limited to only non-negative numbers" or should i test it carefully? |
| 18:37 | <Philip`> | mven: It doesn't make sense to support RIFF anyway |
| 18:37 | <Philip`> | It's more like a system for writing file formats than a format itself |
| 18:37 | <TabAtkins> | RIFF is like XML? |
| 18:37 | <mven> | I dunno. I think the savings they claim might be justified to support it. |
| 18:40 | <Hixie> | wow |
| 18:40 | <Hixie> | <applet> in gecko turns into a new DOM Node that isn't an Element |
| 18:40 | <Hixie> | it's a [Java Package] |
| 18:40 | <Hixie> | that's messed up |
| 18:41 | <annevk> | DOM Core is gonna treat that as a bug :) |
| 18:43 | <mven> | is there any book out there that will explain the DOM more than what wikipedia tries to do? |
| 18:43 | <mven> | *good* |
| 18:52 | <TabAtkins> | What aspect of DOM do you need? Conceptual, implementation, how-to-use-in-a-browser? |
| 18:55 | <karlcow> | mven: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM |
| 18:55 | <karlcow> | http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/traversing-the-dom/ |
| 18:55 | <mven> | karlcow: nice thanks |
| 19:54 | <Hixie> | any opinions on adding a dropzone attribute to complement the draggable attribute? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10712 |
| 19:55 | <Ms2ger> | Sounds pretty nice |
| 19:55 | <Hixie> | maybe dropzone="mime type list"? |
| 19:55 | <Ms2ger> | Not that I've ever used drag and drop |
| 19:57 | <variable> | Hixie, and how would you wildcard (ie to upload anything)? |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | if you want to accept files you'd set it to Files |
| 19:58 | <Hixie> | i guess |
| 19:58 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 19:59 | <variable> | I'd like to see a dropzone attribute - but I duno about the mime-types part |
| 19:59 | <variable> | erm - would Files match the mime type of all files? |
| 19:59 | <Hixie> | the mime type right now would not match the files mime types |
| 19:59 | <Hixie> | only setData() mime types |
| 19:59 | <Hixie> | we could just say that if you set dropzone then you'll accept anything at all, and if you want to filter you need to use script still |
| 20:01 | <variable> | Perhaps upon drop a certain callback could be run - and if it returns true; the drop is done and if it returns false; it isn't? |
| 20:01 | <Hixie> | we already have all the callbacks |
| 20:01 | <variable> | and the callback could access mime-type/file-size/whatever other data it might need? |
| 20:01 | <Hixie> | that's already done |
| 20:02 | <variable> | :-) |
| 21:24 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: I really need to play with drag-and-drop, but it sounds potentially interesting. |
| 21:24 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: I do know that DnD is pretty sucky to work with right now, because I was helping some people get it working a few weeks ago at a code campout and everyone agreed that it was confusing and stupid. |
| 21:31 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, innerHTML is not in DOM Range |
| 21:32 | <Ms2ger> | No, it isn't |
| 21:54 | <Migs> | wtf is whatwg? |
| 21:55 | <Migs> | herro? |
| 21:55 | <daekano> | what? |
| 21:55 | <aho> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whatwg |
| 21:55 | <Philip`> | Migs: It's a group of people who sometimes write HTML5 |
| 21:55 | <daekano> | >.> |
| 21:55 | <variable> | Migs, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ |
| 21:55 | <Aleoss> | King John Il? |
| 21:55 | <Migs> | oic |
| 21:55 | <Migs> | howtf do I join? |
| 21:55 | <Philip`> | You can subscribe to the mailing list via pointers on the web site |
| 21:56 | <Migs> | cool thanks |
| 21:56 | <jgraham> | It should not be confused with whattf which is quite different |
| 21:56 | <aho> | wtf? :> |
| 21:56 | <aho> | yea... exactly |
| 21:56 | <Aleoss> | What about whatts? |
| 21:57 | <jgraham> | Test Suite? |
| 21:57 | <Philip`> | Nor should it be confused with Watto, as he is a Toydarian and not a web standards group |
| 21:57 | <jgraham> | Or Waldo, who was a character in a Velvet Underground song |
| 21:58 | <Aleoss> | No way, "The Shit" |
| 21:58 | <Ms2ger> | Or, for that matter, Wally. Where is he, actually? |
| 22:01 | <variable> | jgraham, they found waldo!? |
| 22:02 | <gsnedders> | variable: Well, only after cutting him in two |
| 22:03 | <jgraham> | Hence the past tense |
| 22:04 | <jgraham> | It's Wally we can't find |
| 22:04 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Indeed, silly American's tihnking he is called Waldo |
| 22:04 | <variable> | https://thefullfool.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/wheres-waldo1.jpg -> I can't find waldo |
| 22:05 | <variable> | he /is/ called waldo |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders> | variable: It's called Where's Wally in the original language :P |
| 22:06 | <jgraham> | variable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where's_Wally%3F |
| 22:07 | <variable> | thats silly |
| 22:07 | <variable> | ""On Thursday 2 April 2009, 1,052 students, alumni, and members of the community at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA, captured the Guinness World Record for the largest gathering of people dressed as Waldo"" |
| 22:07 | <variable> | heh |
| 22:48 | <zcorpan> | annevk: maybe we should drop the 'Web' from 'Web DOM Core' |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | zcorpan, yeah, I think so |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: we added the Web to emphasise that it was optimised for the web, and not other environments (like servers) |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | they can have Document Object Model Level 3 Core |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | :) |
| 22:54 | <annevk> | if I can manage to convince the W3C Team I'd prefer to just go with TR/domcore and DOM Core as it is less to remember |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | the problem was people thinking "DOM Core" was for them, when it was for the web |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | oh for the short name sure |
| 22:54 | Hixie | doesn't really care about the TR/ page anymore anyway |
| 22:55 | <zcorpan> | i don't think it needs to be emphasized in the name of the spec |
| 22:55 | <zcorpan> | not that i really care though :) |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | it's not a big thing, it's just slightly more convenient if it's shorter |
| 22:57 | <annevk> | the alternative would be "Web DOM" which includes the basics of events |
| 22:57 | <jgraham> | I prefer "Web" |
| 22:57 | <jgraham> | I mean "Web DOM Core" |
| 22:57 | <jgraham> | Or just "Web DOM" |
| 22:57 | <Hixie> | Web DOM is good |
| 22:57 | <annevk> | yeah well, if you wanna take over editing you can name it jgraham :) |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | it's indeed up to the editor :-) |
| 22:58 | <jgraham> | I can take over to edit the title |
| 22:58 | <jgraham> | And then hand it back to you when I realise that you get paid for it |
| 22:58 | <jgraham> | and I don't |
| 22:58 | <jgraham> | :p |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | they don't pay you?! :-P |
| 22:58 | <jgraham> | Not to edit Web DOM Core, no |
| 23:00 | <jgraham> | (seriously, I don't really see what the advantage of a shorter title is, whereas havin "web" in there explicitly sets the right expectations for who the spec is aimed at) |
| 23:01 | <jgraham> | (calling it "We don't care about Java servers DOM Core" would also work, but seems unweildy) |
| 23:04 | <annevk> | Web DOM Core is annoying to type; DOM Core less so |
| 23:04 | <annevk> | it's like HTML5 vs Web Applications 1.0 |
| 23:05 | Hixie | notes he went back to Web Applications 1.0 :-) |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | annevk: Then you'll have Java people complaining it's incompatible with deloyed code. |
| 23:06 | <annevk> | I hope to go to just DOM one day :) |
| 23:06 | <jgraham> | I would drop the "core" rather than the "web" |
| 23:06 | <annevk> | gsnedders, it's not a successor to what came before, it's just based on |
| 23:06 | <jgraham> | annevk: I think you will still get complaints |
| 23:07 | <annevk> | well that is inevitable |
| 23:08 | <zcorpan> | nn |
| 23:08 | <jgraham> | gn |
| 23:11 | <annevk> | maybe we should add a color to it |
| 23:12 | <annevk> | Green DOM Core |
| 23:12 | <Moo--__> | sounds like a plot twist from Matrix |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | DOM Red Pill |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | (original: http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html-red-pill ) |
| 23:14 | <Moo--__> | SVG sucks? :< |
| 23:15 | <annevk> | it's funny that all those things were contested and none of those things changed |
| 23:15 | <Moo--__> | annevk: well, you know.. the general state of human kind |
| 23:15 | <annevk> | Moo--__, don't pay attention to that guy |
| 23:15 | <annevk> | Moo--__, he claimed CSS and standards suck too |
| 23:16 | <Moo--__> | annevk: I don't trust monotone people with hercules poirot moustache |
| 23:17 | <annevk> | also, if you peek in the source you'll find out he's drawn using SVG |
| 23:18 | <annevk> | good night everyone |
| 23:18 | <Moo--__> | good night |
| 23:23 | <mven> | night |
| 23:33 | <cardona507> | drawn using svg - nice |
