| 00:10 | <gsnedders> | ojan: Which version of annevk's is latest |
| 00:11 | <ojan> | gsnedders: that's what i was wondering :) |
| 00:12 | <gsnedders> | s/Which/Whichever. |
| 00:12 | <gsnedders> | s#.#/# |
| 00:13 | gsnedders | doesn't know more than that |
| 00:15 | <ojan> | gsnedders: thx |
| 02:59 | <heycam> | is DOMStringMap used by any other spec? or is its only use for HTMLElement.dataset? |
| 03:25 | <heycam> | hmm, would be nice if you could make ES5 properties be deletable but not otherwise configurable |
| 06:26 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/detect-html5-parser.html |
| 06:26 | <hsivonen> | (also seen on html5test.com) |
| 06:27 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins: though I haven't checked if IE9 passes that one now |
| 07:03 | <myakura> | here's what I got in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/detect-html5-parser.html with IE9beta: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=pH6dGzfG |
| 08:03 | <zcorpan> | hmm, how do i remove my old account from bugzilla? |
| 11:36 | <zcorpan> | ojan: http://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/ |
| 12:04 | <jgraham> | Also http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/ Should be identical I think |
| 12:05 | <jgraham> | Indeed the hashes confirm it\ |
| 13:06 | hsivonen | wonders how often @howcome on gets tweets that meant to mention Håkon Lie |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | anyone seen ms2ger? |
| 14:10 | <hsivonen> | has someone already figured out what the sensible thing to do with a TPAC hotel booking is? |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | no |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | if I can share a room that someone else arranges that'd be great |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | gotta find some power |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | actually hsivonen, dbaron posted his info to w3c-css-wg |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | iirc |
| 14:40 | jgraham | mumbles something about having managed to book vacation that clashes with TPAC (not that I would necessarily have been allowed to attend anyway) |
| 14:44 | <variable> | TPAC ? |
| 14:44 | <variable> | Tennessee Performing Arts Center ? |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | maybe add W3C |
| 14:46 | <jarib> | "showing results for tupac w3c" |
| 14:46 | jarib | shakes fist at google |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | god damnit |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | to get Web DOM Core past pubrules is a pain |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | I think I now need to switch to the HTML4 Transitional DOCTYPE because HTML4 did not have the value attribute |
| 14:50 | <KaOSoFt> | ._. |
| 14:50 | <jgraham> | There should totally be more rap battles in standards meeting |
| 14:50 | <jgraham> | It's a good way to make decisions on controversial topics |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | pragmatic: allow subset of HTML5; W3C: insist on HTML4 |
| 14:51 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks! |
| 14:55 | <hsivonen> | these hotels really should get rid of the crashy Flash to get customers! |
| 15:00 | <hsivonen> | man. the only serious alternative to the W3C-suggested hotels has an epicly overflashy site |
| 15:00 | <hsivonen> | with autoplaying audio and Flash form controls |
| 15:00 | <hsivonen> | virtual 3D tours |
| 15:00 | <hsivonen> | plug-in crashes |
| 15:00 | <jgraham> | Maybe that's why it's not W3C suggested? |
| 15:00 | <hsivonen> | the third browser that I tried kinda works |
| 15:01 | <annevk> | last chance peoples: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-41-objection-poll/results |
| 15:02 | <annevk> | does kind of seem like it was just a few people that really cared for da namespaces |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | hmm, requests to dcvs keep timing out |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | guess DOM Core will not be published today |
| 15:03 | <jgraham> | (I asusme you mean dvcs) |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | conference wifi... |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | oh god |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | thanks you |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | such names fail so hard |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | and I do too I suppose for not remembering them properly |
| 15:05 | <jgraham> | Or adding them to hgrc so you don't have to? |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | I thought you could only do that for one URL at the time? |
| 15:05 | <jgraham> | You can only have one as the default |
| 15:06 | <jgraham> | You can have multiple named remotes |
| 15:07 | <jgraham> | (I think) |
| 15:09 | <karlcow> | oooh nico nico douga adds html5 video http://blog.nicovideo.jp/niconews/2010/09/009269.html |
| 15:10 | <annevk> | so maybe we'll get /TR/domcore/ today after all |
| 15:10 | <karlcow> | for more background on nico nico douga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Nico_Douga |
| 15:15 | <jgraham> | annevk: Oh it is quite simple |
| 15:15 | <jgraham> | In hgrc you just do |
| 15:15 | <hsivonen> | any opinions on the possible next steps at the end of this blog comment: http://blog.getify.com/2010/10/ff4-script-loaders-and-order-preservation/#comment-748 ? |
| 15:15 | <jgraham> | w3c = http://dvcs[...] |
| 15:15 | <jgraham> | bitbucket = http://bitbucket[...] |
| 15:15 | <jgraham> | in the [paths] section |
| 15:16 | <jgraham> | You need to fill in the full path of course |
| 15:16 | <annevk> | hsivonen, liking validator.nu uptime (validator.w3.org had a proxy failure of some sorts) |
| 15:16 | <jgraham> | Then you can do hg pull w3c |
| 15:16 | <jgraham> | for example |
| 15:16 | <annevk> | or hg push w3c ? |
| 15:16 | <annevk> | that seems quite nice |
| 15:16 | <jgraham> | yeah |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | oh heh |
| 15:21 | <annevk> | howcome does not have @howcome on twitter |
| 15:24 | <hsivonen> | is howcome on twitter at all? |
| 15:25 | <annevk> | pretty sure he is not |
| 15:25 | <Anti-X> | how come? |
| 15:25 | <Anti-X> | ahahaha i bet im the first one to say that hahahaha *cough* |
| 15:26 | <annevk> | people.opera.com/howcome |
| 15:28 | <Anti-X> | you're a boy named anne? |
| 15:28 | <Anti-X> | that's almost very johnny cash of you |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | heh, you're not the first to mention that today |
| 15:29 | <Anti-X> | johnny cash? |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/Rits/status/26650613549 |
| 15:29 | <Anti-X> | or you being a oy |
| 15:30 | <Anti-X> | ah |
| 15:30 | <Anti-X> | yeah |
| 15:30 | <Anti-X> | i bet you're tough as hell |
| 15:31 | <annevk> | it's a somewhat common name where I am from actually |
| 15:32 | <loucapo> | do u pronounce it like we would in the US? |
| 15:32 | <annevk> | but yeah, I do Thai boxing whenever |
| 15:32 | <karlcow> | Anti-X: plus annevk is a charming very tall guy |
| 15:33 | <annevk> | loucapo, no, it's more like ahn-ne or some such (I have no idea how to spell phonetically) |
| 15:33 | <loucapo> | ok, thats what i guessed |
| 15:33 | <Philip`> | Like Arnie? |
| 15:34 | <annevk> | Philip`, maybe? :) |
| 15:35 | <Philip`> | Probably not a good idea to get mixed up with him |
| 15:39 | <Anti-X> | so how much of your life is spent talking about this, annevk? :p |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | each airport visits it's at least a couple of seconds extra staring by each non-Dutch official up to questioning if I really am the person identified by the passport (fail) which takes somewhat longer |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | then for each new introduction it's a fun conversation starter usually, it doesn't bother me much |
| 15:43 | <annevk> | #newtwitter is pretty good, apart from the URLs |
| 15:43 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: Web DOM Core needs a better Introduction and Abstract |
| 15:43 | <MikeSmith> | actually it needs an Introduction, period |
| 15:44 | <MikeSmith> | I guess it's too late to add it for FPWD |
| 15:44 | <annevk> | it's an open source project |
| 15:44 | <annevk> | feel free to contribute lines of text |
| 15:44 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 15:44 | <annevk> | i do agree btw |
| 15:45 | <annevk> | the main goal for now though is to simplify implementations |
| 15:45 | <MikeSmith> | yep |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | it's a case where, the people who are implementing this know exactly what it's for |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | but that abstract and intro for many specs are typically are not for the people implementing them |
| 15:47 | karlcow | is looking at Web Dom Core |
| 15:48 | <MikeSmith> | karlcow: if after you read it, you have wording for the abstract or intro, that'd be welcome |
| 15:48 | <MikeSmith> | or, as annevk pointed out, it's an open-source project |
| 15:48 | <Rik`> | annevk: is next Opera gonna support pushState ? |
| 15:49 | <karlcow> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html this is the last version ? |
| 15:49 | <MikeSmith> | karlcow: //dvcs.w3.org/hg |
| 15:49 | <MikeSmith> | oops |
| 15:49 | <MikeSmith> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg |
| 15:49 | <annevk> | karlcow, yes |
| 15:49 | <MikeSmith> | hg clone https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore |
| 15:50 | <karlcow> | I suspect the file to edit is Overview.src.html then a make then a push |
| 15:51 | <annevk> | yes |
| 15:52 | <karlcow> | thanks annevk MikeSmith |
| 15:52 | <MikeSmith> | "Web DOM Core defines interfaces for accessing and updating various types of nodes in a DOM tree, as well as interfaces for collections of nodes and lists of strings and tokens." |
| 15:52 | karlcow | will first eat, then look at it. % mate Overview.src.html |
| 15:52 | <MikeSmith> | maybe |
| 15:52 | <annevk> | at the moment I have a tooling setup problem; while everything is available, I cannot get it to work, so only Ms2ger can generate Overview.html between the two of us |
| 15:53 | <MikeSmith> | what tooling does it require? |
| 15:53 | MikeSmith | looks at the makefile |
| 15:53 | <annevk> | anolis |
| 15:53 | <annevk> | as forked by Ms2ger |
| 15:53 | <annevk> | but it goes wrong with the dependencies somehow |
| 15:54 | <annevk> | Anolis fork is here: bitbucket.org/ms2ger/anolis |
| 15:54 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 15:54 | <jgraham> | I need to merge the fork into pms |
| 15:54 | <annevk> | I'm such a noob when it comes to simple Python library hacking :/ |
| 15:54 | <jgraham> | But I need to do many things :( |
| 15:54 | <annevk> | yeah, having someone else do the tooling would be great |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | can I bribe you? |
| 15:55 | <jgraham> | Probably. How did you have in mind? |
| 15:56 | <micheil> | I wonder what the ratio of active programmers to non-active programmers are in here.. |
| 15:56 | <jgraham> | You mean programmers who do exercise compared to those that just sit on the couch? |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | I was thinking beer initially and then I got stuck |
| 16:00 | <jgraham> | Yeah, beer is a bad way to bribe me |
| 16:03 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder how other people who aren't day-job programmers make time to program more actively |
| 16:03 | <MikeSmith> | other than just sacrificing sleep |
| 16:03 | <TabAtkins> | Sacrifice hobbies? |
| 16:05 | <annevk> | http://xkcd.com/802/ is great, especially the tooltip |
| 16:05 | <TabAtkins> | Hah, yeah. I've never even *heard* of Happy Farm. |
| 16:07 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: re tpac, I've got a room near the hotel, but it's only got a single queen bed. |
| 16:10 | <rubys> | mamund: http://twitter.com/#!/samruby/status/26605005709 |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | via twitter: http://dothtml5.com/ |
| 16:13 | <jgraham> | I take it that dotHTML5 isn't the next version of .NET |
| 16:14 | <jgraham> | Taking the buzzwordiness to new heights |
| 16:15 | <Workshiva> | HTML.NET is the next version of HTML5 |
| 16:16 | <KaOSoFt> | ._. |
| 16:23 | <Anti-X> | yay, japanese websites |
| 16:25 | karlcow | is checking if he has a Mercurial bundle file |
| 16:27 | <AryehGregor> | You know, I think we've got at least one person from each major browser opposed to the ISSUE-41 proposal. |
| 16:28 | <annevk> | it's not about browsers, stupid |
| 16:28 | <AryehGregor> | And the one person objecting to the zero-edit proposal isn't actually objecting. |
| 16:29 | <AryehGregor> | annevk, yes, I forgot, we have to care about all the zillions of non-browser, non-search engine UAs out there that people actually care about. |
| 16:29 | <AryehGregor> | Or I guess we have to care about the ones that people don't care about. Or that possibly don't exist. Not sure. |
| 16:30 | <AryehGregor> | (search engines only sort of count as UAs here, it's not like they actually care about more than 10% of the spec) |
| 16:30 | <TabAtkins> | You have to care about the space of all possible UAs. |
| 16:30 | <AryehGregor> | Including the ones that no one will ever actually write or use? |
| 16:31 | <AryehGregor> | Sigh. I guess I have to file yet another WebKit forms bug, against the absolutely crazy <input type=date> implementation. |
| 16:31 | <AryehGregor> | Does WebKit like not have a UI team that's reviewing these changes or something? |
| 16:31 | AryehGregor | was hoping it would go away, but apparently not |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | oh, it is actually in Safari too |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | o_O |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | I thought it was just Google messing it up |
| 16:33 | <AryehGregor> | The guy who's messing it up is paid by Google, but he's messing up Safari too, yeah. Or at least WebKit nightlies. |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | input type=date works in my Safari |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | I don't remember installing a nightly |
| 16:34 | <AryehGregor> | Safari 5? |
| 16:34 | <AryehGregor> | And by "works" you mean "treats it as a number-picker instead of a date-picker"? |
| 16:36 | <AryehGregor> | I'm not sure if it's actually worse than just treating it as a text box, to be fair. |
| 16:38 | <MikeSmith> | the guy who's messing it up is at least trying to actually implement the HTML5 forms feature |
| 16:38 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, I'll give him that. |
| 16:38 | <AryehGregor> | But a bad implementation is worse than no implementation. |
| 16:38 | <AryehGregor> | If it's no implementation, at least you can feature-detect. |
| 16:38 | <AryehGregor> | And substitute something scripted. |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | well, the solution to that is to put some other actual engineering resources on it |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | instead of simply bitching about it |
| 16:39 | <AryehGregor> | What do you mean? |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | it is open-source code |
| 16:41 | <AryehGregor> | I have no UI skills, even if I had time to do a lot of coding without pay (which I don't), and I don't have the money to pay someone else to do it, so my only real option is to complain. Better than nothing. |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/domcore/ |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | win |
| 16:42 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: didn't mean you personally |
| 16:42 | <AryehGregor> | I really wouldn't object to the work not getting done. It's not a critical feature. But shipping broken support is poisoning the well, making it much more difficult to use the feature in browsers that do support it well (like Firefox 4, to all indications). |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | thanks karlcow |
| 16:43 | <AryehGregor> | The only people who can stop the current work from being done are the person doing it and the people who run WebKit, so complaining to them is really the only thing anyone can do, except those people themselves. |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | I think Firefox does not support <input type=date> actually |
| 16:43 | <AryehGregor> | Right, which is fine. |
| 16:44 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: agreed about shipping with the broken implementation -- it seems like it did get enabled and released prematurely |
| 16:44 | <AryehGregor> | Not one, but now at least two different HTML5 form features in WebKit got shipped in alpha-quality state. |
| 16:45 | <AryehGregor> | (others shipped just fine, like placeholder AFAICT) |
| 16:46 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, it seems like there needs to be something to prevent similar problems from happening in the future |
| 16:51 | <hober> | TabAtkins: talked to Tantek re: using the microformats wiki for registering rel values. |
| 16:52 | <hober> | TabAtkins: we've got buy-in from him to alter the existing-rel-values page to better match what hixie's looking for |
| 16:52 | <TabAtkins> | Sounds good. |
| 17:13 | <MikeSmith> | AryehGregor: sorry for snapping earlier |
| 17:13 | <AryehGregor> | No problem. |
| 17:14 | TabAtkins | needs to learn how to use grep more effectively. |
| 17:14 | <MikeSmith> | I think I've been drinking too much coffee |
| 17:14 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, ack seems to be better for most purposes. |
| 17:14 | <MikeSmith> | +1 to ack |
| 17:14 | <AryehGregor> | Although I've only just started using it. |
| 17:15 | <MikeSmith> | ack works best if you take time to set up a good user config file for yourself |
| 17:15 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., ack doesn't know about javascript by default |
| 17:15 | <MikeSmith> | but you can tell it in your user config |
| 17:16 | <Philip`> | My one seems to know about .js files by default |
| 17:17 | <TabAtkins> | Hm, ack's smarts about where to look seem pretty useful. |
| 17:17 | <Philip`> | and http://betterthangrep.com/ lists .js |
| 17:17 | <MikeSmith> | Philip`: I have ack 1.92 |
| 17:18 | MikeSmith | wonders what the latest version is |
| 17:18 | <AryehGregor> | I have 1.92 too. |
| 17:18 | <TabAtkins> | Huh. My port only has 1.39. |
| 17:18 | <TabAtkins> | But I need to upgrade my distro anyway. |
| 17:19 | <AryehGregor> | Mine knows about js too. |
| 17:19 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe it's a Debian improvement. |
| 17:19 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 17:19 | <MikeSmith> | I suspect so |
| 17:24 | <Philip`> | I don't use Debian, and it's on the official site anyway |
| 17:27 | <MikeSmith> | I guess "ack --help=types" is the way to list out what types it has built-in support for |
| 17:27 | <AryehGregor> | Yes. |
| 17:27 | <MikeSmith> | hmm |
| 17:27 | <MikeSmith> | and I find my ack does in fact have built-in support for js also |
| 17:28 | <MikeSmith> | seems like it didn't whenever I first set up my user config file |
| 18:20 | <AryehGregor> | I have my doubts about whether it's worth spending this much effort to respond to ACs on Slashdot. http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1810648&cid=33810820 |
| 18:20 | <AryehGregor> | I guess it would have been if the comment got modded up a lot and enough people saw it, but it's more than a day old, so probably not. |
| 18:26 | Philip` | mods it up |
| 18:26 | <Philip`> | (I didn't bother actually reading it, admittedly) |
| 18:26 | <AryehGregor> | See, that's a good strategy, we should all coordinate here so the ones with mod points mod up the ones without them at any given time. |
| 18:27 | <AryehGregor> | I used to post and moderate HTML5-related stuff a lot on Slashdot, but I got tired of it. |
| 18:27 | <AryehGregor> | A Sisyphean task. |
| 18:54 | <f1lt3r> | question: is all of the CSS3 spec. considered to be a part of HTML5? |
| 18:54 | <Hixie> | by whom? |
| 18:54 | <KaOSoFt> | "part of"? |
| 18:54 | <f1lt3r> | lol |
| 18:55 | <f1lt3r> | perhaps i can ask this a different way |
| 18:55 | <Ms2ger> | By people who know what HTML5 means, no |
| 18:55 | <f1lt3r> | that's what i thought Ms2ger |
| 18:55 | <f1lt3r> | Is there functionality defined in the Css3 spec which is considered to be technically outside of the HTML5 spec? |
| 18:56 | <virtuelv> | all of it |
| 18:56 | <Ms2ger> | I didn't understand your question, but I'll note there are a lot of CSS3 specs |
| 18:56 | <f1lt3r> | virtuelv, all of css is separate from HTML5? |
| 18:56 | <f1lt3r> | i thought css3 colors were in there |
| 18:57 | <Ms2ger> | In what way? |
| 18:57 | <Anti-X> | html and css are complements, but they do not overlap in any way |
| 18:57 | <Ms2ger> | Canvas uses css3 colors, I guess |
| 18:58 | <Anti-X> | no, JS uses css3 colors |
| 18:58 | <virtuelv> | Ms2ger: either way, in the sense that html5 might have dependencies on css3, it would be found in the "references" section of the html5 spec |
| 18:59 | <f1lt3r> | thanks |
| 19:00 | <Ms2ger> | virtuelv, thanks, I wrote most of that section :) |
| 19:00 | <f1lt3r> | 2.5.6 - Colors: If keyword is an ASCII case-insensitive match for one of the keywords listed in the SVG color keywords section of the CSS3 Color specification, then return the simple color corresponding to that keyword. |
| 19:00 | <Ms2ger> | That sounds like bgcolor parsing |
| 19:01 | <AryehGregor> | f1lt3r, HTML5 normatively depends on some CSS 3 standards: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/references.html#references |
| 19:01 | <AryehGregor> | However, they aren't part of HTML5, any more than any other normative references (e.g., RFC 2616). |
| 19:01 | <f1lt3r> | interesting |
| 19:02 | <f1lt3r> | thanks guys, much appreciated |
| 19:02 | <AryehGregor> | However again, "HTML5" is often used as a buzzword to include any modern web technology. |
| 19:02 | <Anti-X> | also i'm guessing html5 defines some default css settings |
| 19:02 | <Anti-X> | if that counts |
| 19:02 | <f1lt3r> | yeah AryehGregor seems to cause a lot of issues, but it's great for sales ;) |
| 19:02 | <AryehGregor> | So it's not part of the spec that the W3C or WHATWG calls "HTML5", but it is part of the vague all-encompassing concept popularly known as "HTML5" right now. |
| 19:03 | <AryehGregor> | Anti-X, yes, the whole rendering section does that. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#rendering |
| 19:04 | <KaOSoFt> | People sees HTML5 as a new AJAX: a mix of different "technologies" working as a whole. |
| 19:04 | <AryehGregor> | Or DHTML. |
| 19:04 | <Anti-X> | oh horror |
| 19:05 | <Anti-X> | dhtml - the dinosaur from when before JS was cool |
| 19:05 | <Ms2ger> | Or DHTML5 |
| 19:05 | <Ms2ger> | http://dhtml5.com/ |
| 19:05 | <KaOSoFt> | ._. |
| 19:05 | AryehGregor | laughs hysterically at that link |
| 19:05 | <Anti-X> | haha |
| 19:06 | AryehGregor | wonders who Michael Taylor is |
| 19:07 | <Anti-X> | i bet it's a guy! |
| 19:07 | <Anti-X> | i just eliminated 50% of your suspects |
| 19:08 | <Anti-X> | you'll never eliminate as many as i just did |
| 19:09 | <Anti-X> | i could go on with my lame jokes, but that would be, well, lame |
| 19:09 | <Ms2ger> | Well, if he's in the standards world, more like 10%, I'm afraid |
| 19:09 | <AryehGregor> | If that. |
| 19:09 | <AryehGregor> | Also, you could have eliminated more by guessing that he lives in an English-speaking country. |
| 19:09 | <AryehGregor> | That's less than 10% of the world, right? |
| 19:09 | <Anti-X> | that's not necessarily true |
| 19:10 | <AryehGregor> | Well, he could also be female. I'm sure there's at least one woman named Michael in the world. |
| 19:10 | <Ms2ger> | Jackson? |
| 19:10 | <Anti-X> | well there's a guy named anne in here, so why not |
| 19:10 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, I was thinking of people who were alive, but . . . |
| 19:10 | <AryehGregor> | I assume "Anne" is a male name in Scandinavia. |
| 19:10 | AryehGregor | checks Wikipedia |
| 19:10 | <Anti-X> | he's dutch |
| 19:10 | <AryehGregor> | Really? Drat. |
| 19:11 | <Anti-X> | oh he's not here now |
| 19:11 | <Ms2ger> | And, it isn't |
| 19:11 | <Anti-X> | annevk |
| 19:11 | <AryehGregor> | "It is common used as a male name in the Netherlands (for example Anne de Vries) and has also been used male in France (Anne de Montmorency)." |
| 19:11 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, well, then I've learned something today. |
| 19:12 | gsnedders | did learn "they", "them", and "their" are from Old Norse in origin, which struck me as weird. |
| 19:12 | <gsnedders> | s/me/him/ |
| 19:13 | <Ms2ger> | Still having trouble with actions? :) |
| 19:13 | <Workshiva> | gsnedders: The Norsemen were big on 'th' sounds |
| 19:13 | <gsnedders> | Workshiva: Well, yeah, I know that. |
| 19:14 | <Anti-X> | more like a d´ |
| 19:14 | <gsnedders> | Workshiva: But introducing new closed-class words into a language, almost certainly replacing older ones? Weird. |
| 19:14 | <Anti-X> | the vikings conquered england |
| 19:14 | <Anti-X> | that might explain it |
| 19:14 | <gsnedders> | Well, depends what you mean by England |
| 19:14 | <Anti-X> | all of britain |
| 19:14 | <Ms2ger> | More like a ð, no? |
| 19:15 | <Anti-X> | except wales |
| 19:15 | <Anti-X> | nobody wants wales |
| 19:15 | <Anti-X> | Ms2ger exactly |
| 19:15 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, irc://irc.freenode.net/#whatwg is an invalid URL, isn't it? It's normally written irc://irc.freenode.net/whatwg. |
| 19:15 | <Anti-X> | it's a blunt 'th' sound |
| 19:15 | <jwalden> | Michael Jackson is alive, I saw him at the gas station a couple weeks ago |
| 19:15 | <Anti-X> | you sure it wasn't a crazed fan? |
| 19:16 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: Well, they got the majority Kingdom of Northumbria, so not much of Scotland either… And they didn't conqure the Kingdom of Wessex either. |
| 19:16 | <Anti-X> | wessex schmessex |
| 19:16 | <gsnedders> | They probably only got around half of modern-day England, and a very small bit of Scotland (for I think they got that far north within Northumbria) |
| 19:17 | <Anti-X> | yeah but you're missing a vital piece |
| 19:17 | <Anti-X> | norwegians->scotland/ireland, danes->england |
| 19:17 | <gsnedders> | Still, odd to replace closed-class words, even with conquest. |
| 19:17 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Is it? I dunno. I'll change it. |
| 19:17 | <gsnedders> | The Normans never managed that (though did in Standard English replace the Genitive phrase more or less.) |
| 19:17 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, I was too lazy to look up the spec. |
| 19:17 | <Anti-X> | normans = french |
| 19:17 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: It's a valid. Why would it be invalid? |
| 19:18 | <AryehGregor> | Does it work as expected? |
| 19:18 | <Anti-X> | you're confusing stuff |
| 19:18 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, is the fragment allowed but optional? |
| 19:18 | AryehGregor | looks up the RFCs |
| 19:18 | <AryehGregor> | (if there are any?) |
| 19:18 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: For the irc scheme? Unspecified. |
| 19:18 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: It's a valid URI was what I was saying |
| 19:18 | <AryehGregor> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-butcher-irc-url-04#section-2.5.1 |
| 19:19 | <AryehGregor> | I see. |
| 19:19 | <AryehGregor> | It looks like the fragment is optional, but must be encoded if it's present, according to that draft. |
| 19:19 | <AryehGregor> | Actual fragments appear to be ignored in irc:// URLs, according to the spec. But I bet some applications support them anyway. |
| 19:20 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: Well, the King of France had little control over anything, so I'd argue they weren't particuarly French |
| 19:20 | <TabAtkins> | Perhaps I will change it to "on the freenode.net server, #whatwg room". |
| 19:21 | Ms2ger | found http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1042630901&count=1 an interesting read |
| 19:21 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Real implementations treat paths (ignoring leading slash) and fragments equivilantly |
| 19:21 | <AryehGregor> | Yay. |
| 19:21 | <AryehGregor> | Makes sense. |
| 19:21 | <AryehGregor> | I just hadn't seen it before. |
| 19:22 | <Anti-X> | gsnedders, you're confusing a few centuries here |
| 19:22 | <AryehGregor> | I never use IRC URLs anyway. Or mailto URLs. If it's not handled by my browser, it tends not to do what I want it to. |
| 19:23 | <TabAtkins> | Ms2ger: Huh, I didn't remember that post. Interesting how widely Hixie's opinions have swung re: draconian errors and Namespaces-in-XML. |
| 19:23 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: I was under the impression the King of France had little influence, and the most influencal people in France at the time were the Dukes |
| 19:23 | <Anti-X> | gsnedders, 900's->vikings invade the british isles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canute.PNG), 1060's->normans(france) invade england |
| 19:23 | gsnedders | wonders what he's mixing up |
| 19:24 | <Anti-X> | that map just tells about one king though, lots of stuff happened before that |
| 19:24 | <Anti-X> | he's the most famous king so i picked that |
| 19:24 | <Ms2ger> | I wish Hixie would blog more |
| 19:24 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, yeah, that post is amusing. |
| 19:24 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: Yes, I am aware it happened at different times, but for progression of English as a language they're comparable events. |
| 19:25 | <Anti-X> | yes, but you were wondering how norse could influence english so much, that's how |
| 19:25 | <Anti-X> | they owned it |
| 19:25 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: I am aware of that. |
| 19:25 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: But still, replacing closed-class words is still odd, even given that. |
| 19:25 | <Anti-X> | i don't think they were replacing anything per se |
| 19:25 | <Anti-X> | since they probably had a lot of languages |
| 19:25 | <Anti-X> | and now they got one common one |
| 19:26 | <Anti-X> | sort of |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: Old English has a set of pronouns corrosponding to the modern-day they, them, etc., replacing pronouns is, uh, exceptionally unusual. |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | that post was written less than a year befor we startd html5 |
| 19:27 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: The Norman influence is nowhere near so radical, primarily adding words to open-class categories of words |
| 19:27 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, when you were young :) |
| 19:28 | <gsnedders> | (Amusingly, the majority of words of French origin only come much later.) |
| 19:29 | <Ms2ger> | Also, what's the cabal's opinion on making the named access on window quirks-only? |
| 19:29 | <gsnedders> | I would be amazed if that didn't break a large number of sites. |
| 19:29 | <Anti-X> | i'm thinking creole here |
| 19:29 | <Anti-X> | sort of |
| 19:29 | <Workshiva> | Large may not be large enough |
| 19:29 | <Ms2ger> | Gecko doesn't have it in standards mode |
| 19:30 | <Anti-X> | that was for gsnedders |
| 19:30 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Oh. That surprises me. Oh well. |
| 19:30 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: In terms of forcing it upon the language? Or? |
| 19:30 | <Anti-X> | no, more like.. lots of trade leads to people wanting to understand each other |
| 19:30 | <Anti-X> | so they assimilate words |
| 19:31 | <gsnedders> | Yes, sure. But very almost no exceptions, open-class words, especially nouns. |
| 19:31 | <Ms2ger> | Also, it only has `window.a` if you look at `a` first |
| 19:31 | <gsnedders> | s/But very/But with/ |
| 19:31 | <Anti-X> | what are the old english equivalents then |
| 19:32 | gsnedders | should know this, but can't remember it off hand |
| 19:32 | gsnedders | looks up |
| 19:32 | <Anti-X> | and i don't think old english refers to the time before the vikings, i think old english means medieval english |
| 19:32 | <Workshiva> | Isn't that olde english? |
| 19:34 | <gsnedders> | wē, ġē, hīe was nominative plural in all three declensions |
| 19:34 | <KaOSoFt> | Wow, I had not seen true old english in a while. |
| 19:35 | <Anti-X> | they, them, their? |
| 19:35 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: "The term Anglo-Saxon came to refer to all things of the early English period by the 16th century, including language, culture, and people. While this is still the preferred term for the latter two aspects, the language starting from the 19th century began to be called Old English." — The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language |
| 19:35 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: they, they, and they |
| 19:35 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: (unless I'm being stupid…) |
| 19:36 | <Anti-X> | the first two they make sense |
| 19:36 | <Anti-X> | the last one not so much |
| 19:36 | <Anti-X> | but it could be the case form that changed it |
| 19:36 | <Anti-X> | they had a lot of that then |
| 19:37 | <gsnedders> | Oh, I am just being stupid. |
| 19:38 | <gsnedders> | hīe (nominative, modern: "they"), hīe (accusative, modern: "them"), him (dative, modern: "them"), and hira (genitive, modern: "their"/"theirs") |
| 19:38 | gsnedders | misunderstood the table he was reading before |
| 19:39 | <gsnedders> | (and the first is pronounced [hiːə]) |
| 19:40 | <Anti-X> | we still use some of it today here, but not as a rule, more as exceptions... like... they have something: dei har noko (nominative). i saw them: eg såg dei (accusative). to them: til dei (dative). it is their(s): det er deira (genitive) |
| 19:40 | <Anti-X> | for some other pronouns we use their nominative form for all of these |
| 19:41 | <Anti-X> | i think |
| 19:41 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: "we"? Swedish from the examples? |
| 19:41 | <gsnedders> | Or? |
| 19:41 | <Anti-X> | nynorsk |
| 19:41 | <Anti-X> | new norwegian |
| 19:41 | <Anti-X> | based on dialects |
| 19:41 | <gsnedders> | Ah |
| 19:41 | <Anti-X> | we had danish for a while and some people were pissed |
| 19:41 | gsnedders | can normally tell the difference, but shorter the fragment the harder it gets :) |
| 19:42 | <Anti-X> | a while = 400 years |
| 19:42 | <Anti-X> | barely an afternoon |
| 19:42 | <Anti-X> | in history |
| 19:42 | <gsnedders> | The origin of they/their/them is thought to be þæir, þæim, þæira from Old Norse |
| 19:42 | <AryehGregor> | "hg out" is pretty cool. |
| 19:42 | gsnedders | has no idea how to pronoun them, though |
| 19:42 | <AryehGregor> | Easy to type. |
| 19:43 | <Anti-X> | þ = 'th' |
| 19:43 | <Anti-X> | exactly |
| 19:43 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: Yeah, that's about as far as my knowledge gets. "ae" is what? |
| 19:43 | <Anti-X> | æ = like the a in 'glad' |
| 19:43 | <Anti-X> | english glad |
| 19:43 | <Anti-X> | as in happy |
| 19:44 | <gsnedders> | and how do you get the i in after that then? |
| 19:45 | <Anti-X> | 'ea' in east |
| 19:45 | gsnedders | sighs at himself |
| 19:45 | <Anti-X> | don't type it out like that though, it'll be all wrong |
| 19:45 | <Anti-X> | :p |
| 19:45 | <Anti-X> | thaear |
| 19:45 | <Anti-X> | actually if you're scottish that may be right |
| 19:46 | <gsnedders> | gsnedders: You are trying to pronoun Old Norse. Basing it upon Swedish is probably better than basing it upon English. |
| 19:46 | <Anti-X> | probably a horrible mistake |
| 19:46 | <Anti-X> | swedish is fucked |
| 19:46 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: Cooler than the Git equivalent of that command? :-) |
| 19:46 | <Anti-X> | pardon my.. english |
| 19:46 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, it's just a shortcut, the git version is a lot longer to type. |
| 19:46 | <AryehGregor> | I think this is the first thing I like about Hg. |
| 19:47 | <Anti-X> | gsnedders, do you know the ä sound in swedish? it's the same as the æ |
| 19:47 | <gsnedders> | Anti-X: Well, yeah. But from my (admittedly fairly limited) knowledge of Old Norse, it's still closer than English. (As the Old Norse influence on English is small, but in places radical.) |
| 19:48 | <Anti-X> | and not to mention the various english dialects and accents that make vowels completely different |
| 19:48 | <gsnedders> | Heh. |
| 19:49 | gsnedders | had one of his friends say something like, "if I come and visit you, will I understand anyone?", earlier today |
| 19:49 | <gsnedders> | (I live in Glasgow.) |
| 19:49 | <Anti-X> | oh you could have said that |
| 19:50 | <Anti-X> | so you have a proper R then |
| 19:50 | <Anti-X> | like normal people |
| 19:50 | <gsnedders> | I don't have a Glaswegian accent, however |
| 19:51 | <gsnedders> | And if my proper you mean rolled, I really don't at all. |
| 19:51 | <Anti-X> | there are four types of Rs... proper, french, and gutteral (split into british and american (extreme)) |
| 19:51 | <Anti-X> | i call it gutteral |
| 19:51 | <Anti-X> | but it's really not |
| 19:52 | <Anti-X> | but it sounds ugly |
| 19:52 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, clearly my lack of C++ experience is showing. Can anyone tell me what this line means? http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/3dcf107b7267/content/html/content/src/nsHTMLInputElement.h#l142 |
| 19:52 | <AryehGregor> | I'd think it was a symbol #define'd someplace else, but I can't find the definition anywhere. |
| 19:53 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, I bet it's magically generated from an IDL, that must be it. |
| 19:53 | AryehGregor | goes to find the IDL |
| 19:55 | <Philip`> | http://hg.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/file/3dcf107b7267/dom/interfaces/html/nsIDOMHTMLInputElement.idl |
| 19:55 | Philip` | would guess so |
| 19:56 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, now it turns out that the helper method I was trying to use was expecting it to be signed, but it's unsigned. |
| 19:57 | AryehGregor | starts to think this code needs to be largely rewritten to match the spec, since it's different at a conceptual level in so many places. |
| 19:57 | <AryehGregor> | Probably true for all other browsers too. The HTML5 reflection stuff seems to be a rationalization of the giant soup of preexisting practices. |
| 19:59 | <AryehGregor> | It's drastically simpler than what I'm seeing in the Gecko source code, which is really a case-by-case mishmash that makes no sense as a whole. |
| 19:59 | <AryehGregor> | (which, again, is probably what other browsers do too) |
| 20:07 | jwalden | wonders when Opera will get around to fixing rendering of http://whereswalden.com/files/mozilla/background-size/page-cover.html when the viewport is tall and narrow (he *thinks* he formally reported it as a bug once) |
| 21:10 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: The answer is no, obviously |
| 21:11 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: To what? |
| 21:11 | <jgraham> | 13:54 * gsnedders had one of his friends say something like, "if I come and visit you, will I understand anyone?", earlier today |
| 21:14 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Ah. |
| 21:14 | <gsnedders> | It's not that hard. |
| 21:15 | <jgraham> | Um, yes it is |
| 21:15 | <jgraham> | Especially if you are not a native speaker |
| 21:15 | <gsnedders> | Bah, grow up around people speaking Scots, it's not that hard. :P |
| 21:15 | <gsnedders> | (Yeah, just grow up again. :P) |
| 21:16 | <jgraham> | I refer you to my original statement |
| 21:17 | <AryehGregor> | "Hello Dr. Fantasai," |
| 21:18 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: ? |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | Someone started an e-mail to www-style with that two days ago. |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | It amused me. |
| 21:19 | <Ms2ger> | Me too |
| 21:19 | gsnedders | must admit he doesn't read www-style very closely |
| 21:19 | <AryehGregor> | I wonder which of the following is true: a) The writer thinks "Fantasai" is her real name. b) The writer thinks she has a Ph.D. (I assume she doesn't?) c) The writer thinks that it's appropriate to refer to random people as "Dr." regardless of whether they have a Ph.D. |
| 21:20 | <Ms2ger> | d) The writer, despite signing as "Dr.", is not a doctor |
| 21:21 | <jgraham> | It sould be a real surname, I guess. And I guess some people pick the highest title that seems at all probable in case they offend you |
| 21:21 | <jgraham> | OK that is a rubbish theory |
| 21:21 | <AryehGregor> | "fantasai" is not remotely plausible as a real surname. |
| 21:22 | <Workshiva> | That's what I would say about Anne as a male name a few years ago |
| 21:22 | <jgraham> | The only times I have ever been adressed as "Dr." by email was by suspicious-looking "journals" asking for contributions |
| 21:22 | <AryehGregor> | Anne is at least a real name, it's not totally implausible that some crazy places would use it as a male name. |
| 21:23 | <Workshiva> | Djikstra definitely looks fake |
| 21:23 | <jgraham> | I assume different cultures have different naming traditions |
| 21:23 | <Workshiva> | Assuming I can even spell it |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | "fantasai" sounds like exactly what it is, an Internet handle chosen by a teenage girl. (I think she had it since she was a teenager, didn't she? I vaguely recall reading her website once.) |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, that's a silly assumption. I'm pretty sure all cultures have the same naming conventions exactly. |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | Also, ++ on the "people call you Dr. when trying to get money out of you". |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | The AMS called me Dr., I think. |
| 21:24 | <AryehGregor> | Or Professor or something. |
| 21:24 | <AryehGregor> | Uh-huh. |
| 21:24 | gsnedders | calls jgraham Dr sometimes when he wants to get something out of him |
| 21:24 | <gsnedders> | It turns out this is unsuccessful |
| 21:24 | <Workshiva> | Is that so... Doctor Curien? |
| 21:25 | <jgraham> | Indeed, the demise of me bein refered o as "Dr" by email coincides exacly with the point at which it would at least be accurate to do so |
| 21:27 | jgraham | notes that while it may technically be accurate to refer to him as Dr it will always be unwelcome, as gsnedders discovered |
| 21:27 | <Workshiva> | Herr Dokter Graham |
| 21:28 | <jgraham> | Workshiva: If looks could kill they probably will |
| 21:30 | <Ms2ger> | Workshiva, Dijkstra, btw |
| 21:31 | <jgraham> | If we're going for "names that look made up" let's not forget krijn |
| 21:31 | <Workshiva> | See, I can't even spell it correctly |
| 21:32 | <jgraham> | That's just a random selection of constanants with a token vowel |
| 21:32 | <AryehGregor> | I think it would be most effective to just look in a Polish phonebook. |
| 21:32 | <AryehGregor> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_casualties_of_the_2010_Polish_Air_Force_Tu-154_crash |
| 21:33 | <AryehGregor> | Czesław, Przemysław, come on. |
| 21:33 | <AryehGregor> | (probably a tasteless source of Polish names to pick) |
| 21:33 | <Ms2ger> | Probably? |
| 21:36 | <AryehGregor> | :/ |
| 21:36 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Discovered? I've always done it because I know it's unwelcome. |
| 21:36 | gsnedders | can't remember who told him jgraham found it unwelcome |
| 21:38 | <jgraham> | Things that annoy me but shouldn't #216: People who write "here here" when they are agreeing with something |
| 21:40 | <TabAtkins> | teehee: "the use of ass commands" |
| 21:40 | <Ms2ger> | Your just pedantic, jgraham :) |
| 21:40 | <AryehGregor> | I didn't realize jgraham had a Ph.D., and that referring to him as Dr. annoys him. I'll have to remember this. |
| 21:40 | <TabAtkins> | Oh man. |
| 21:40 | <TabAtkins> | Dr. Graham. |
| 21:40 | <TabAtkins> | Excellent. |
| 21:43 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: I can assure you that it was somewhat difficult for *me* to understand you at first, until I got used to your accent. |
| 21:43 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: gsnedders doesn't have a Scottish accent |
| 21:44 | <jgraham> | Much less a Glasgow one |
| 21:44 | <TabAtkins> | Whatever. You northern europeans are all the same. |
| 21:44 | <TabAtkins> | Also, I didn't meantion "Scottish". |
| 21:44 | <TabAtkins> | Just "accent". |
| 21:44 | <TabAtkins> | Also: I'm about to miss lunch. brb. |
| 21:46 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: Well if gsnedders' accent isn't Scottish, how hard he is to understand has little bearing on how hard someone from Glasgow would be to understand |
| 21:46 | <gsnedders> | I basically have Recieved Pronouncation… or, alternatively, am a posh git. |
| 21:47 | <jgraham> | Except insofar as one can make some analysis on the relative difference between accents |
| 21:47 | <Workshiva> | Ms2ger: Did you do that on purpose? |
| 21:47 | <Ms2ger> | Workshiva, yes |
| 21:47 | <jgraham> | That puts A B and C at different points on some one-dimensional scale |
| 21:47 | gsnedders | would quite like to not sound like a posh git |
| 21:48 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I recommend spending some time in Glasgow |
| 21:48 | <jgraham> | No one from Glasgow sounds posh |
| 21:48 | <jgraham> | Although arguably people from liverpool sound less posh </flamebait> |
| 21:50 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: Come live in America for four years. That'll beat the accent out of you (/replace it with an American one - choose your flavor). |
| 21:51 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I've already met one girl that disproves that. |
| 21:51 | <jgraham> | Maybe we should try and convince him that accents are mainly transferred by sex |
| 21:51 | <gsnedders> | hah |
| 21:51 | <gsnedders> | beer and casual sex, it's how I was told I'm meant to get through uni. |
| 21:51 | <jgraham> | So to get a less-posh accent he should sleep with less-posh-sounding people |
| 21:53 | <Workshiva> | Nah, tey |
| 21:53 | <Workshiva> | They |
| 21:53 | <Workshiva> | ... I hate this keyboard |
| 21:53 | <Workshiva> | They'll all be like "Speak fancy to me, baby" |
| 21:54 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I believe the idea is that if you apply enough of the first the second will come as a consequence |
| 21:54 | <jgraham> | This is far from my area of expertise however |
| 21:55 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Hmm, so I have to drink more than I did at my birthday party? |
| 21:56 | <jgraham> | Well that and hang out with more people that aren't 10 years older than you and mostly in relationships, yes |
| 21:56 | <gsnedders> | (For the benefit of everyone else: I have never been anywhere near as drunk as I was at my 18th birthday party. I don't intend on getting as drunk ever again.) |
| 21:57 | <AryehGregor> | I don't drink. Seems to cause more trouble than it's worth. |
| 21:57 | <TabAtkins> | Sure, if you do it wrong. |
| 21:57 | TabAtkins | does it right. |
| 21:57 | TabAtkins | knows this, because he has alcoholic friends that do it wrong. |
| 21:57 | gsnedders | has no objection to drinking a glass of wine with food, but rarely drinks apart from that |
| 21:57 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, pretty much the same with me. I have a glass or two of wine occasionally, that's it. |
| 21:58 | <AryehGregor> | I don't get why anyone would want to trade away their mental faculties temporarily for a buzz. |
| 21:58 | <AryehGregor> | Seems like a terrible tradeoff. |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | hear hear |
| 21:58 | <TabAtkins> | Because it's temporary? |
| 21:59 | <TabAtkins> | If I could get a buzz without dulling my brain, I'd go for that instead. But I work with what I have. |
| 21:59 | <gsnedders> | But it's consquences aren't, it does have a long term affect on parts of your body, like your liver. |
| 21:59 | <AryehGregor> | But why would you want to temporarily make yourself stupider? It seems like it's not worth it at all. |
| 21:59 | gsnedders | doesn't even really get a buzz from alcohol |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: there are lots of ways of getting a buzz without alcohol :-) |
| 21:59 | <TabAtkins> | Consequences are only a problem if you (a) drink too much and (b) are stupid to begin with. Long-term consequences are no worse than any other food if used in moderation. |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | almost any physical exercise, for instance |
| 21:59 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Completely different buzz. |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | nobody specified the kind of buzz |
| 22:00 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: It doesn't make you stupider. It makes you less alert, and does strange things to your executive function. But your intelligence remains high. |
| 22:00 | <TabAtkins> | (At least, until you get deep into the depressive effect.) |
| 22:01 | <AryehGregor> | You would do much worse on any kind of standardized test of intelligence while drunk. |
| 22:01 | <AryehGregor> | Correct or incorrect? |
| 22:01 | <hober> | I find that ranting about distributed extensibility is best done while drinking |
| 22:02 | <Hixie> | hober: i would advise against both activities :-P |
| 22:02 | <hober> | :) |
| 22:02 | <Hixie> | speaking of ranting, how long has it been since a chair decision? |
| 22:02 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Ah, if you use that as your definition, then sure. |
| 22:02 | <hober> | I've been really pleased with the answers to the ISSUE-41 poll |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | are they just going to announce all the decisions at once on the day we go to LC? |
| 22:03 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, didn't they tell you? |
| 22:03 | <AryehGregor> | hober, it's a landslide. Maybe we should require higher standards for bringing up an issue, like strong support by a second person. |
| 22:03 | <AryehGregor> | We had one or two like this before. Waste of time. |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, they have a schedule on when they're supposed to get all the chair decisions done. |
| 22:04 | <TabAtkins> | Like, sigh, the "Remove <small>" issue that SP just raised to the tracker? |
| 22:04 | <Ms2ger> | Also, a standard that would avoid creating an issue about lang=en-us-x-hixie |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, exactly like that one. |
| 22:04 | <Workshiva> | I'm almost starting to miss Dmitri Turin |
| 22:04 | <Ms2ger> | No |
| 22:05 | <hober> | Workshiva: DON'T SUMMON HIM |
| 22:05 | <Ms2ger> | No you aren't |
| 22:05 | <hober> | he doesn't kiboze irc, does he? |
| 22:05 | <Ms2ger> | I hope not |
| 22:05 | <Hixie> | i miss the guy who wanted Accept headers set by an attribute |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | Who's Dmitry Turin? |
| 22:05 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, I remember him! |
| 22:05 | <Workshiva> | Get out Hixie |
| 22:05 | <TabAtkins> | mookid? |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | that's him |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | i think |
| 22:06 | <Workshiva> | He's still around under another name sometimes |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 22:06 | <TabAtkins> | He's /ignore'd in my prefs under both his names, so shrug. |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | awww |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | poor guy! |
| 22:06 | Ms2ger | has a user style sheet to ignore him in the logs |
| 22:07 | <hober> | M-x erc-add-fool |
| 22:07 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I would like so see some study indicating the long term liver damage of drinking in moderation |
| 22:08 | <jgraham> | Because I am quie skeptical |
| 22:08 | <Workshiva> | I should probably go home before midnight |
| 22:08 | <TabAtkins> | I'm quite certain there've been studies of it, which showed nothing appreciable. |
| 22:09 | jgraham | doesn't drink at all fwiw |
| 22:10 | <TabAtkins> | On that note, I'll be picking up my wineclub selections for the month next weekend! yay! |
| 22:11 | <hober> | "People who don.t drink tend to die sooner than those who do, this according to a paper published in the journal Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, says TIME Magazine." http://sundaystandard.info/article.php?NewsID=8909&GroupID=2 |
| 22:11 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, but that's purely correlational, right? |
| 22:11 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe it's just because they're . . . antisocial or something. |
| 22:12 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe people who actually have friends are under pressure to drink. I wouldn't know. |
| 22:12 | <jgraham> | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15804034 makes some claims wrt liver disease |
| 22:13 | <jgraham> | Although it's hard to draw conclusions from a single paper |
| 22:14 | <jgraham> | Especially one in Swedish that I sem to have no access to |
| 22:15 | <jgraham> | actually s/hard/impossible/ |
| 22:16 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I've seen others, too, but I can't find any now. |
| 22:19 | <jgraham> | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8985826 claims otherwise for example, although only in passing |
| 22:20 | <jgraham> | In any case it is a bit of a dumb thing to worry about. The probability of dying of liver disease is still tiny compared to many other things, lots of which are also lifestyle-choice related |
| 22:21 | <AryehGregor> | Like the risk of traffic accidents, which can be avoided if you become a hermit and live in the wilderness. |
| 22:21 | <jgraham> | (unless you are an alcoholic of course. But we are assuming moderation here) |
| 22:21 | <jgraham> | I was thinking more of heart disease which can be avoided by not living in Scotland |
| 22:22 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Uh… |
| 22:22 | <jgraham> | But probably other things like being run over when wearing headphones that prevent you hearing the traffic |
| 22:23 | <AryehGregor> | You can also avoid heart disease by choosing to be heartless. |
| 22:23 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You've seen the statistics? Being Scottish is just bad for the heart :p |
| 22:24 | <AryehGregor> | It's interesting that practically all the leading causes of death are disease. |
| 22:24 | <TabAtkins> | Heart disease is, in fact, specific only to Scotland and Texas. |
| 22:24 | <AryehGregor> | I wonder how that compares to a hundred years ago. |
| 22:24 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Oh, you just mean like that :P |
| 22:25 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: And statistically, Glasgow is the worst place in Scotland :) |
| 22:26 | <gsnedders> | (There again, for what is common, I don't have anywhere near the diet needed to die) |
| 22:51 | AryehGregor | just found a ridiculously stupid bug that meant his test suite wasn't testing string, boolean, url, or urls types at all |
| 22:51 | AryehGregor | can't believe he didn't spot that before: "type" instead of type |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 22:52 | Philip` | hates bugs that make test suites silently pass without running any code |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | so hard to spot too |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | especially when most of the test fails |
| 22:53 | <Philip`> | And when you eventually discover it, you see it's a ridiculously stupid bug |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | usually |
| 22:54 | <Hixie> | and if you're lucky it's not baked into hte platform by that time... |
| 22:54 | <Philip`> | which makes it seem more embarrassing than if it was a legitimate difficult bug |
| 22:54 | <AryehGregor> | Also, Opera now completely crashes when running the test suite. |
| 22:54 | <AryehGregor> | Sigh. |
| 22:54 | <Philip`> | Completely crashes, as opposed to only partially crashing? |
| 22:54 | AryehGregor | filled out the crash report form, one of you Opera people can go look for it |
| 22:55 | <AryehGregor> | Well, before it was terminating JavaScript execution due to OOM. |
| 22:55 | <AryehGregor> | Now it just crashes. |
| 22:55 | <Philip`> | Ah |
| 22:55 | <AryehGregor> | Is there a way to make hg diff colored? |
| 22:57 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, it requires an extension. So typical. |
| 22:57 | <Philip`> | http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/ColorExtension |
| 22:58 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Submit it with an email address? |
| 22:58 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, yeah, I submitted the last one with an e-mail address. |
| 22:58 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: What email address? :) |
| 22:58 | <AryehGregor> | I think it was AryehGregor+operacrash⊙gc |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | Call it an off-by-default boolean user configuration variable, if that makes you happier than "extension" |
| 22:59 | <AryehGregor> | Might have been Simetrical+operacrash⊙gc |
| 22:59 | <AryehGregor> | Might have been your e-mail address, just to mess with you. |
| 22:59 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, that's not a good argument for rebase, though, because "hg rebase" doesn't work until you add the line to your config. |
| 22:59 | <AryehGregor> | That's senseless. |
| 23:00 | <Philip`> | Yeah, I'm not sure how that is considered a good idea |
| 23:01 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Can't find any with either address |
| 23:01 | <gsnedders> | (or my own :P) |
| 23:01 | <AryehGregor> | Hmph. |
| 23:01 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe your crash report system doesn't like + in e-mail addresses, like so many systems don't. |
| 23:05 | <gsnedders> | No, it works fine |
| 23:05 | TabAtkins | figures the only usable, understandable regex for email addresses is /[^@]+@.+/. |
| 23:07 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: (FWIW, there's no validation done on it at all. You could put in garbage there.) |
| 23:08 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: How about IP? :P |
| 23:08 | gsnedders | could just try running it himself… |
| 23:13 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: I can't reproduce crash on AMD64 Linux |
| 23:13 | <gsnedders> | (using the version at http://aryeh.name/tests/reflection.html) |
| 23:39 | <TabAtkins> | I need a clever name for my blog. |
| 23:40 | <othermaciej> | How about "standards suck"? |
| 23:40 | <othermaciej> | (sadly that's taken already) |
| 23:40 | <TabAtkins> | Serious suggestions only, please. ^_^ |
| 23:41 | <hober> | "The Tab on Tab" |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | "Tab Atkins' Blog" |
| 23:41 | <TabAtkins> | That's the best one so far. |
| 23:41 | <Dashiva> | The Tabloid |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | "My Home Page" |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | Tabloid is pretty funny |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | i like that |
| 23:42 | <TabAtkins> | "My Cool Home Page (under construction) |
| 23:42 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, me too! |
| 23:42 | <Dashiva> | Well come to my web sight |
| 23:42 | <othermaciej> | "Tab Complete" |
| 23:42 | <hober> | othermaciej++ |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | Alt+Tab |
| 23:42 | <TabAtkins> | Oh man. |
| 23:42 | <hober> | or tab completion |
| 23:42 | <othermaciej> | "Tabbed Browsing" |
| 23:42 | TabAtkins | will have to rotate these titles. |
| 23:42 | <Hixie> | lol |
| 23:42 | <hober> | damn |
| 23:42 | <hober> | lots of good ones |
| 23:42 | <othermaciej> | "Tabular Data" |
| 23:43 | <hober> | if he named it that, he'd have to use ironic tables for layout |
| 23:43 | <TabAtkins> | <table role=ironic> |
| 23:43 | <Dashiva> | <table role=ironic> |
| 23:43 | <TabAtkins> | HAH |
| 23:43 | <Dashiva> | Damn! |
| 23:43 | <hober> | <table role=presentation class=ironic> :) |
| 23:44 | TabAtkins | will use a table for the title when "Tabular Data" comes up. |
| 23:46 | <othermaciej> | "Tab Stops" |
| 23:46 | <Dashiva> | \t |
| 23:46 | <othermaciej> | New Tab |
| 23:47 | <TabAtkins> | Everyone wins! |
| 23:47 | <Philip`> | "I Prefer Spaces" |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: are you "doing real world testing of specification usability" in your 20% time? |
| 23:47 | <othermaciej> | heh |
| 23:47 | <othermaciej> | or "Eight Space" |
| 23:48 | <TabAtkins> | "New Tab" is confusing in the tab name when it comes up. |
| 23:48 | <othermaciej> | TabAtkins: that's the best thing about it! |
| 23:48 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Actually, sorta...? |
| 23:48 | <Dashiva> | <title> </title> |
| 23:48 | <hober> | ^I |
| 23:48 | <TabAtkins> | Dashiva: I need that spacing character, the little square cup thing. |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: much of my site was built the same way :-P |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Writing up my articles for the talks I'm giving this weekend. I already had a document editor, but I've never taken the time to turn it into a blog. |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 23:49 | <TabAtkins> | Having a blog was becoming increasingly necessary as my public presence increased. |
| 23:49 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, the report was sent from monoid.aryeh.name. |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | i found needing a blog has become increasingly unnecessary personally :-P |
| 23:50 | <gsnedders> | AryehGregor: Okay, weird. Vanished. Totally. |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | but that's mostly because whenever i blog i end up on reddit and then flamed in the htmlwg |
| 23:50 | <TabAtkins> | Hahaha. |
| 23:50 | <gsnedders> | (and yes, that scares me) |
| 23:51 | <othermaciej> | if you don't blog, your emails will end up on reddit |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: already happened |
| 23:51 | <othermaciej> | or bug comments |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | i'm at a loss as to how to fix http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10712 usefully (dropzone="" attribute) |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | any ideas? |
| 23:51 | gsnedders | just doesn't have a blog because he has nothing to say |
| 23:51 | <TabAtkins> | Well, for future reference, www.xanthir.com/blog now has a few random documents I'd written that I don't mind making public, and about 5 minutes worth of styling and usability attention. |
| 23:51 | <gsnedders> | (Okay, I have one, that I intend on getting rid of) |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | it has to be something that actually reduces authoring burden, while not making web pages less usable |
| 23:52 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: Planning on using any blogging platform? |
| 23:52 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: My document editor? |
| 23:52 | <othermaciej> | how do Web pages normally indicate what is a valid drop target? |
| 23:52 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, that name is really very confusing. |
| 23:52 | <AryehGregor> | I love it. |
| 23:53 | <AryehGregor> | Especially since you have no favicon. |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: they have to cancel an event if the type of data being dragged is accepted |
| 23:53 | <AryehGregor> | Doesn't work for Opera, that says "Speed Dial". |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: reload |
| 23:53 | <TabAtkins> | I think I might freeze the <title>, so bookmarks aren't as confusing. Probably on "New Tab". |
| 23:54 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: does that event occur when the drag enters the element, or only when the actual drop occurs? |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | tab: just freeze the title once for each user |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: set a cookie to the selected title |
| 23:54 | <TabAtkins> | othermaciej: The former. |
| 23:54 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Ooh, that's an idea. |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: continuously while you hover over the element |
| 23:54 | <AryehGregor> | Whoa. |
| 23:54 | <AryehGregor> | That's unusual. |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: and in particular when you enter the element |
| 23:54 | <AryehGregor> | You really are rotating them. |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: (there's two events -- one has to be canceled to accept the drop, another to set the cursor to something that accepts the drop.) |
| 23:55 | <othermaciej> | it seems like during a drag you may want to change appearance |
| 23:55 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, I re-crashed and re-sent. |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: another event fires when you leave the element |
| 23:55 | <othermaciej> | even if you aren't going to accept the item |
| 23:55 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: I don't know what's more useful, personally - an attribute on the dragged item that says where it can be dropped, or an attribute on drop zones that says what they can accept somehow. |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: you get an event on enter, an event on hover, and an event on leave |
| 23:55 | <othermaciej> | so maybe the attribute could also have a related pseudo-class |
| 23:55 | <TabAtkins> | The former would let you switch off the "fire events at everything all the time". |
| 23:56 | <othermaciej> | is it at all feasible to express type of data that can be accepted declaratively? |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: it can't be the former, since you could be dragging from another document (or even not the browser at all) |
| 23:56 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Hmm, rght. |
| 23:56 | <TabAtkins> | othermaciej: Yeah, you can set a type in the dragstart, and just check for that. |
| 23:56 | <othermaciej> | in some cases of drop behavior you really do need to update appearance on every drag event |
| 23:56 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: nothing can be done declaratively at all, currently, that's the bug i'm trying to fix |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: the problem is that with just events, ATs have no idea what drop zones to offer |
| 23:57 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I'm just wondering if a feature of declratively saying "I accept drops of these types" is feasible, i.e. does the drag source provide any type info? |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: without just sending an event to every element one after hte other to test the whole page |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yeah, we could do that |
| 23:57 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: it'd be difficult to do without redoing the API at the same time since right now the API is kind of a mess when it comes to dragging files and we wouldn't want to make this attribute inherit that mess |
| 23:58 | <TabAtkins> | Perhaps, if a @dropzone specifies a particular type, the page notices this, and changes so that drags with that type only fire events on the appropriate dragzones, not everything? |
| 23:58 | <othermaciej> | the API is kind of a wreck |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: i don't follow |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yeah |
| 23:58 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: there's a proposal to make it better (in a comment in the spec) |
| 23:58 | <hober> | TabAtkins: re: your blog, no feed makes me a sad panda |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: should i just go ahead and do it? (i dunno if it's too late to be adding entire untested APIs...) |
| 23:59 | <TabAtkins> | hober: I just turned it on! Right now the entire code is about 10 lines, not counting CSS. |
| 23:59 | <hober> | :) |
| 23:59 | <TabAtkins> | More features will come later. I just needed something I could point people to during my talks, so they could get all the links and info I'll be talking about. |
