| 03:07 | Aryeh-laptop | experiments with Empathy |
| 03:29 | <karlcow> | http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javascript-disabled/ |
| 03:33 | <wirepair> | woa interesting stats. |
| 08:47 | <hsivonen> | http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#AVNormalize is still the XML spec section I need to quote the most often :-( |
| 08:53 | <zcorpan> | i wonder what happens with the polyglot spec when it's going to be published again since it now uses the html5 doctype |
| 08:53 | <Hixie> | shouldn't it be a polyglot document? |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | yes, that's why it uses the html5 doctype |
| 08:54 | <Hixie> | ah, interesting |
| 08:54 | <Hixie> | well it can always use the XHTML1.0 one when the pubteam complain |
| 08:55 | <zcorpan> | then it's not polyglot anymore according to the polyglot spec iirc |
| 08:55 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 08:55 | <Hixie> | well then |
| 08:55 | <Hixie> | this ought to be fun |
| 08:56 | <Hixie> | as the pubteam's immovable wall of policy meets the polyglot's unstoppable force, as they say |
| 08:58 | <zcorpan> | oh, it seems it allows the xhtml 1.0 doctype |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan> | actually the normative part allows html4 doctype without url |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan> | that seems like a bug |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-xhtml-author-guide/html-xhtml-authoring-guide.html#doctype |
| 09:01 | <zcorpan> | anyway, i don't care about that document |
| 09:12 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: wait! is there now a normative part in the polyglot guide? |
| 09:13 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: well i guess the document as a whole is non-normative, but it has "must"s |
| 09:13 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: hmmkay |
| 09:14 | <zcorpan> | and also "this section is non-normative" and normative references and informative references |
| 09:15 | <Hixie> | um... it seems to do a poor job at being non-normative then |
| 09:15 | <Hixie> | someone should, like, file a bug |
| 09:15 | <hsivonen> | yay for leaky abstactions. when I read the email I just set to public-html (as sent back to me by the list server), I see two instances of ">From" at the start of a line in Zimbra |
| 09:15 | <Hixie> | that design bug has plagued the mail world for years |
| 09:15 | <zcorpan> | > From is so annoying |
| 09:17 | <zcorpan> | at least opera doesn't do that |
| 10:12 | <zcorpan> | does space need to be escaped in srcdoc in xml? |
| 10:13 | <Hixie> | we had a whole poll about that topic recently |
| 10:13 | <zcorpan> | yeah i know |
| 10:14 | <zcorpan> | "For a white space character (#x20, #xD, #xA, #x9), append a space character (#x20) to the normalized value." |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | seems to me that space doesn't need to be escaped |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | the paragraph about non-CDATA attributes doesn't apply since srcdoc is a CDATA attribute |
| 10:16 | <Hixie> | well then i guess we have new information: it turns out it IS too complicated for julian to come up with accurate text after all, and the concerns in my CP were justified. |
| 10:19 | <Workshiva> | But surely Julian isn't representative for the average XHTML author ;) |
| 10:22 | <zcorpan> | ok so what do i do? just file a new bug? |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | so srcdoc really is just a nice syntax for data URLs, right? |
| 10:22 | <annevk> | with the media type implied |
| 10:22 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: sam's e-mail said something about how to escalate it, i didn't read the details |
| 11:54 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: It could be a non-CDATA attribute, if the DTD specifies it to be so |
| 11:57 | <Philip`> | (That's very unlikely, but if the goal is to describe how to safely escape attributes then it shouldn't ignore that case, and to avoid being far more complex it should just say to always escape whitspace) |
| 12:03 | <kuya> | hello, im using html5lib python version and its showing an error i cant work out |
| 12:04 | <kuya> | *an error parsing my html |
| 12:04 | <kuya> | could anyone help? |
| 12:06 | <jgraham> | kuya: Maybe. Just ask the question :) |
| 12:06 | <kuya> | im not quite sure what my question is! ;D |
| 12:06 | <kuya> | im seeing 194:11 Unexpected end tag (form). Ignored. |
| 12:07 | <kuya> | http://dpaste.com/257740/ |
| 12:08 | <kuya> | is the relevant bit of html |
| 12:08 | <kuya> | the w3c validator doesnt seem to complain on the same code |
| 12:09 | <kuya> | (im willing to accept the error might be in a ton of html before that line...) |
| 12:10 | <kuya> | actually if i remove that form from the html the error goes away |
| 12:10 | <kuya> | so wth is wrong with my form? |
| 12:11 | <jgraham> | Possibly it is just the error detection in html5lib gone wrong |
| 12:11 | <jgraham> | that is not very well tested |
| 12:11 | <jgraham> | I didn't really think anyone was using it :) |
| 12:12 | <kuya> | should i try html5lib from svn ... or try and fix html5lib... or just give up :) |
| 12:12 | <jgraham> | You could try the latest version from mercurial |
| 12:12 | <jgraham> | What are you actually trying to achieve? |
| 12:13 | <jgraham> | I mean wy do you care about the parse error? |
| 12:13 | <kuya> | im trying to use html5lib as a validator |
| 12:13 | <kuya> | is that a dumb idea? |
| 12:13 | <jgraham> | Oh, that sounds like a bad idea :) |
| 12:13 | <kuya> | ergh |
| 12:13 | <jgraham> | I mean it should theoretically tell you about misnested tags |
| 12:14 | <jgraham> | But it knows nothing of content models or restrictions on attribute values, for example |
| 12:14 | <jgraham> | Maybe you could run a local instance of validator.nu to get the effect you want? |
| 12:14 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: if the author uses his own DTD then he doesn't need to read the note |
| 12:15 | <kuya> | jgraham: i was hoping to not have to run a whole instance of that... but if its my best bet i guess ill have to |
| 12:16 | <jgraham> | kuya: Well it depends on your needs. But adding true validation to html5lib would be highly non-trivial |
| 12:17 | <zcorpan> | kuya: http://about.validator.nu/#api |
| 12:17 | <kuya> | ok thanks for the info jgraham |
| 12:21 | <Philip`> | zcorpan: You're assuming the authors understands all the details of XML, and the purpose of the escaping note was to be for people who don't understand XML (but are using it anyway) and need the HTML5 spec to tell them about it |
| 12:23 | <Philip`> | I suppose it just seems odd to give specific advice that is only partially correct |
| 12:23 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: i'm assuming that no-one is going to change srcdoc from being CDATA |
| 12:24 | <zcorpan> | and if they do then they understand the concequences |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: That doesn't really fit with the "monkies with guns" model of web developers |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | monkeys maybe |
| 13:11 | <kuya> | does anyone some js that posts data to validator.nu? for some reason i cant do it |
| 13:13 | <zcorpan> | doesn't XMLHttpRequest work? |
| 13:13 | <zcorpan> | or a form? |
| 13:14 | <kuya> | afaict this should work $.ajax({url:'http://localhost:8888/';, type: 'POST', data: 'some_html', success: function(d) { console.log(d); }}) |
| 13:15 | <kuya> | but i get nothing back and the request looks totally screwy in firebug |
| 13:18 | <zcorpan> | oh, i guess it's because it's a cross-origin request |
| 13:18 | <kuya> | it comes back looking like an OPTIONS request (wth that is) |
| 13:19 | <zcorpan> | have a look at the xmlhttprequest level 2 spec and the CORS spec |
| 13:20 | <zcorpan> | this is because it's cross-origin |
| 13:21 | <zcorpan> | if your page is on http://localhost/ then it's cross-origin because the port is different |
| 13:22 | <zcorpan> | if you serve your page from http://localhost:8888/ also then it should work without the preflight CORS stuff |
| 13:22 | <kuya> | hrm |
| 13:22 | <kuya> | cant serve two apps from the same port :S |
| 13:22 | <kuya> | maybe i can stick in a little proxy |
| 13:23 | <zcorpan> | well, i think validator.nu should support CORS so unless i'm mistaken it should just work |
| 13:25 | <kuya> | i dont quite understand what your telling me about CORS |
| 13:30 | <zcorpan> | ok. traditionally browsers haven't allowed cross-origin requests in XHR at all |
| 13:30 | <zcorpan> | a new spec called CORS changed that by letting the server opt-in to cross-origin XHR |
| 13:31 | <zcorpan> | but it does that by doing a pre-flight request for POST before doing teh real request |
| 13:32 | <zcorpan> | validator.nu should support this so I don't know why it doesn't work for you, but at least it explains what you see in firebug |
| 13:32 | <kuya> | ah ok |
| 13:32 | <kuya> | i think i follow |
| 13:32 | <kuya> | i certainly see some headers regarding this CORS stuff |
| 13:33 | <kuya> | but im no closer to making it actually work hehe |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | the browser should do the magic for you in theory :) |
| 13:36 | <kuya> | i get exactly the same problem trying to do the request to validator.nu so its not to do with my local install |
| 13:50 | <kuya> | ah i think i get the problem |
| 14:13 | kuya | fail |
| 14:13 | <KaOSoFt> | http://www.blambot.com/grammar.shtml |
| 14:13 | <kuya> | if anyone can do a cors ajax request to validator.nu please tell me |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | has the CORS spec changed from the headers that validator.nu sends? |
| 14:26 | <zcorpan> | the headers are here http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/#syntax |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | kuya: the spec has changed and v.nu hasn't kept up :-( |
| 14:32 | <kuya> | ah ok |
| 14:33 | <kuya> | im proxy requests to it now to side step the problem |
| 14:33 | <kuya> | im not hacking java |
| 14:33 | <zcorpan> | kuya: you could file a bug in bugzilla.validator.nu so hsivonen can fix it at some point |
| 14:33 | <zcorpan> | (or someone else) |
| 14:33 | <hsivonen> | annevk: just curious, when the header names changed anyway, why didn't you get rid of the "Access-Control-" prefix and use a "CORS-" prefix? |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | when did the header names change? |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | oh, I see |
| 14:34 | <hsivonen> | so now I send Access-Control: allow <*> |
| 14:34 | <hsivonen> | is Access-Control-Allow-Origin: * what I need to send instead? |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | yes |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | the header names changed before I renamed the draft to something more appropriate |
| 14:35 | <hsivonen> | annevk: ok |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | the header names changed around August 2008, the next publication that called it CORS was in March 2009 |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | I see |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | so v.nu has been broken for 2 years... |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | and nobody noticed... |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | I have repeatedly suggested changing the header names, but since Microsoft has some deployment sicking is not really open to it |
| 14:37 | <annevk> | Microsoft shipped IE8 around that time, I think that made the whole thing stuck |
| 14:38 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I think it's better not to bikeshed names after browsers have shipped |
| 14:39 | <hsivonen> | grumble, grumble. looks like I need to use Access-Control-Allow-Methods, too |
| 14:39 | <hsivonen> | apparently in addition to Allow |
| 14:40 | hsivonen | wonders what the rationale is |
| 14:40 | <zcorpan> | maybe you just want to allow GET in the normal case? |
| 14:41 | zcorpan | hasn't followed CORS stuff |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | Hmm. I have access-control-policy-path |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | that's no longer in the spec, either |
| 14:41 | <annevk> | hsivonen, the whole specific opt-in was something from the Mozilla security team |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | annevk: what should I replace the policy path with? |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | there's no replacement |
| 14:42 | <annevk> | just need to make sure you allow for each URL |
| 14:43 | <hsivonen> | annevk: so I'll just zap that header... |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | right |
| 14:50 | <hsivonen> | kuya: does it work for you now? |
| 14:51 | hsivonen | redeployed v.nu with now CORS headers |
| 14:51 | <kuya> | ooh |
| 14:52 | <kuya> | thanks hsivonen i will check in a moment |
| 14:55 | <hsivonen> | s/now/new/ |
| 14:59 | <kuya> | i cant seem to construct a request via js that validator.nu will accept |
| 14:59 | kuya | just tried hand crafting a multipart request and failed |
| 15:03 | <kuya> | hsivonen: would supporting application/x-www-form-urlencoded be very hard? |
| 15:05 | <kuya> | oh wow i just did it |
| 15:05 | <kuya> | i was being dumb |
| 15:09 | <kuya> | hsivonen: CORS now works :) |
| 15:09 | <kuya> | hsivonen: im sending the content as the POST body - but adding ?out=json returns nothing |
| 15:10 | <kuya> | nope i lieing |
| 15:10 | <kuya> | works now with CORS |
| 15:10 | <kuya> | woot |
| 18:41 | <bluejay2> | is this the chan for html5? |
| 18:41 | <KaOSoFt> | Web technologies, mostly, including of course HTML5. |
| 18:43 | <bluejay2> | Cool. I've worked on a method to allow a user to download a file encoded in base64 via URL string but of course browsers have a URL size limit, so I want to explore the possibilities of using localstorage for file downloading. |
| 18:43 | <bluejay2> | I've read about the file "uploading" via drag and drop, very awesome, but haven't found an example of downloading a file other than plain ascii text |
| 18:56 | <TabAtkins> | bluejay2: You'll want the FileSystem API and/or FileWriter API. Neither are implemented publicly yet, though. |
| 18:57 | <TabAtkins> | Currently file downloading is usually done by passing the information back to the server and then opening an iframe to the server, where the server can then present the information back with appropriate headers to trigger a download. |
| 19:07 | <bluejay2> | TabAtkins: What do you think the ETA is for filewriter support in browsers? |
| 19:20 | <TabAtkins> | bluejay2: No clue, but since it's Chrome people writing the spec, it'll probably show up in Chrome/Webkit first. |
| 19:32 | <Ms2ger> | "I am usually the one to argue for orthogonality" |
| 19:32 | <Ms2ger> | Who can guess the author? |
| 19:38 | <jgraham> | trick question? |
| 19:38 | <Ms2ger> | Nope |
| 19:43 | <svl> | Shelby! |
| 19:56 | <Ms2ger> | svl, you win an axiomatic proof! |
| 19:59 | <svl> | \o/ |
| 19:59 | svl | fears |
| 20:01 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, ping |
| 20:53 | <Hixie> | Ms2ger: here |
| 20:54 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, I filed a bug to remove the File API exceptions, as they now use a separate counter |
| 21:02 | <Hixie> | k |
| 21:40 | <heycam> | "polyglot heartbeat" sounds like a terrible condition to have |
| 21:43 | <karlcow> | heycam: sounds to me inter-ethnic love :) |
| 22:01 | <Ms2ger> | "W3C Invites Implementations of CSS Style Attributes" |
| 22:01 | <Ms2ger> | Also, http://twitter.com/sgalineau/status/27374482354 |
| 22:02 | <annevk> | CSS WG comedy week :) |
| 22:14 | <karlcow> | discovering http://www.gnu.org/software/pythonwebkit/ |
| 22:15 | <karlcow> | "Python-Webkit is a python extension to Webkit to add full, complete access to Webkit's DOM - Document Object Model." |
| 22:15 | <karlcow> | the repository seems to be active http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/pythonwebkit.git |
| 22:30 | <hober> | heycam: it'd be a good band name |