| 01:45 | <m0> | Why can't WebWorkers interact with Plugins? |
| 01:46 | <m0> | If I want to create an infinite loop that pings a plugin, that cannot live within a worker, the spec doesn't allow that. |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | don't use plugins :-) |
| 01:54 | <boogyman> | ^ ++ |
| 02:37 | <m0> | Hixie: well, I want to prove to W3C about an Idea I have, and I need a plugin to do that :( |
| 02:37 | <m0> | Until the <device> tag gets implemented, because I want to put another "type" for "haptics" |
| 02:45 | <Hixie> | i'd recommend just implementing it in an open source browser (making a custom build) rather than making a plugin |
| 02:58 | <m0> | I thought about that, but when talking with the devs who are implementing <device> for Chromium, they said a plugin would be good at first :s I guess I am implementing this all wrong then :( I want to be able to send stuff back and forth between HTML5 Canvas and my external device. |
| 03:01 | <m0> | I am trying to experiment stuff in my spare time, to help blind people use the browser. The device can send out 1000 positions per second. So I thought I can create a NPAPI plugin, that communicates to the Device, and within the Canvas/WebGL I can communicate back and forth to the device. |
| 03:02 | <m0> | And the plugin can be installed an an extension. But I have no idea how to let a WebWorker access the plugin arrg :) Thanks for your time :-) |
| 05:30 | <Hixie> | m0: what kind of device? |
| 08:17 | <wirepair> | interesting... http://www.shodanhq.com/?q=Access-Control-Allow-Origin |
| 08:17 | <wirepair> | i guess 'use * sparingly' means 90% of people should use * |
| 08:17 | wirepair | sighs |
| 08:28 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: You probably want http://docs.python.org/library/tempfile.html if you need temp files |
| 08:40 | <jgraham> | micheil: I would really try to avoid supporting versions of the protocol that are not supported by an actual browser |
| 08:41 | <jgraham> | In particular I think it is worth pushing at this stage for the new handshake so that we have -00 with the old handshake and then a version with the new handshake |
| 09:29 | <micheil> | fair enough |
| 09:29 | <micheil> | I just am looking for practice in writing a state machine binary parser |
| 09:32 | <jgraham> | If you want to so something super-useful write a client / server implementation of -03 with the abarth handshake for testing |
| 09:33 | <jgraham> | If it turns out to be impossibly difficult because of e.g. the AES requirement that is useful information |
| 09:33 | <jgraham> | And we can use it to inform the AES vs XOR discussion |
| 09:41 | <roc> | AES, really? |
| 09:43 | <micheil> | jgraham: hmm.. |
| 09:43 | <micheil> | I've never done anything with AES |
| 09:45 | <micheil> | jgraham: however, I could make an early guess and say implementing his handshake may be easy, considering openSSL has AES implemented in it by the looks |
| 09:48 | <jgraham> | micheil: Yeah, the idea is that you just use libraries |
| 09:48 | <micheil> | jgraham: yeah |
| 09:49 | <jgraham> | roc: Why "really?"? |
| 09:49 | <micheil> | jgraham: I'll admit at first it sounds over the top |
| 09:50 | <jgraham> | micheil: In what sense? |
| 09:51 | <micheil> | well, the idea of encrypting something like websockets for the case of restricting cross protocol attacks just seems odd at first |
| 09:51 | <micheil> | but then when you see an actual exploit written and tested, it makes sense |
| 10:04 | <jgraham> | It is kinda unnerving to have a whole screenful of useful technical discussion on public-html |
| 10:04 | <jgraham> | But good, of course |
| 10:06 | <abarth> | boris and i were talking past each other for a bit |
| 10:06 | <abarth> | but i think we're making some progress |
| 10:07 | <jgraham> | Yes, but that always happens in these things. And this is not exactly the most trivial part of the spec |
| 10:08 | <abarth> | i'm writing up a diff for the websocket spec to include the new handshake |
| 10:08 | <abarth> | the style of the spec is super wordy |
| 10:08 | <abarth> | "followed by a UTF-8-encoded U+000D CARRIAGE RETURN U+000A LINE FEED character pair (CRLF)." |
| 10:09 | <jgraham> | That would be a Hixie-ism |
| 10:09 | <Hixie> | people complained when i gave byte values |
| 10:10 | <abarth> | i think the typical thing is to define an ABNF for the byte sequence |
| 10:10 | <jgraham> | I guess you are writing it assuming the full handshake after the fixed part is obfuscated, despite the reservations of some people about the depolyability of that? |
| 10:10 | <abarth> | and use that as an abbreviation |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | ABNF is useless for anything but defining validity |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | it doesn't define a parser |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | it doesn't define the semantics of individual components |
| 10:11 | <abarth> | in the case of CRLF |
| 10:11 | <Hixie> | and it doesn't define error handling |
| 10:11 | <abarth> | it defines a precise sequence of octets :) |
| 10:12 | <Hixie> | ABNF doesn't define a precise sequence of octets, it defines a pattern that can be matched against an input string in a specified encoding and returns a bootlean |
| 10:12 | <Hixie> | boolean |
| 10:12 | <jgraham> | Nevertheless it seems inevitable that we will end up with websockets defined in terms of ABNF |
| 10:12 | <Hixie> | wonderful |
| 10:12 | <abarth> | well, it defines a set of octet sequences |
| 10:13 | Hixie | blocks out a few months of his calendar to write up a real spec to clear up the mess of bugs that will create :-) |
| 10:13 | <abarth> | in this case, a singleton set |
| 10:13 | <Hixie> | anyway, i gotta go sleep |
| 10:29 | <hsivonen> | abarth: fwiw, I confirm that .ordered has been withdrawn and Kyle accurately describes the two options that are still open |
| 10:29 | <abarth> | ok |
| 10:29 | <asmodai> | mmm, this latest 3.6.11 firefox build has some weird interrupt problem |
| 10:29 | <abarth> | reading your mails now |
| 10:29 | <asmodai> | If I move my mouse Javascript and webpage loading seems to trigger |
| 10:29 | <asmodai> | if I don't do anything it just stalls o_O |
| 10:30 | <abarth> | why is adding more API surface a bad idea? |
| 10:30 | <abarth> | the alternative seems to be making the existing APIs more subtle |
| 10:32 | <hsivonen> | abarth: with .ordered, the problem was that a boolean was wanted by instead the proposal had two booleans and a vague case where both are false |
| 10:33 | <hsivonen> | abarth: with your waitFor, there are the complications that Boris mentioned |
| 10:33 | <abarth> | that sounds like you don't like the particular APIs that have been proposed so far |
| 10:33 | <abarth> | not that you're against new API surface in principle |
| 10:33 | <hsivonen> | abarth: furthermore, anything that doesn't use async has the problem of making async more confusing since it would have no effect on script-inserted scripts |
| 10:34 | <abarth> | i don't see why that's confusing |
| 10:34 | <abarth> | script inserted scripts just are async |
| 10:34 | <abarth> | whether or not they get the attribute |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | abarth: you don't see why it's confusing to have DOM-exposed properties that have no effect when you touch them? |
| 10:34 | <abarth> | there are lots of those |
| 10:35 | <abarth> | e.g., the language attribute of a script element |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | it has an effect: you can set it to a value that makes the script useless |
| 10:37 | <asmodai> | crap, how to debug this |
| 10:37 | <abarth> | i think its more confusing to have a fourth category of script execution which is almost identical to async, but subtly ordered in a way that most people will never realize |
| 10:38 | <asmodai> | yay, crash report |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | abarth: why is it a problem if it addresses a use case and if it is opt-in so that people who use it do have the use case to deal with? |
| 10:39 | <abarth> | none of those things speak to whether or not its confusing |
| 10:39 | <Peter`> | Wouldn't script prioritization be a solution? It'd be usable for both @async as @defer |
| 10:39 | <abarth> | that's not related either |
| 10:40 | <abarth> | priorization doesn't imply ordering |
| 10:40 | <abarth> | you can have something that's low priority randomly happen first |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | I have to go get lunch before my lunch place closes. sorry. |
| 10:40 | <abarth> | np |
| 10:41 | <asmodai> | http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/bp-59e7127e-8f5d-434c-8182-12f152101018 |
| 10:41 | <asmodai> | Curious where it ended though |
| 12:30 | <zcorpan> | abarth|zZz: "9. Send /response/." - leftover? i don't see /response/ mentioned anywhere else |
| 13:16 | <hsivonen> | when is one supposed to use http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/w3centities-f.ent and when http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/htmlmathml-f.ent |
| 13:16 | <hsivonen> | ? |
| 13:17 | <annevk> | hsivonen, what virtual machine thing do you use on Mac? |
| 13:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Parallels |
| 13:18 | <hsivonen> | annevk: version 5 |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | just because 6 was not out yet? |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | is Parallels much better than http://www.virtualbox.org/ ? |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I didn't see why I'd need to upgrade to 6 |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | annevk: esp. now that I'm using VirtualBox on Linux more often than I use Parallels on Mac |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I haven't tested VirtualBox on Mac |
| 13:22 | <hsivonen> | annevk: for Windows, Parallels has the Coherence mode, which is nice (Mac windows and Windows windows intermingle) |
| 13:22 | <hsivonen> | annevk: also, Parallels provides a higher-spec virtual GPU than VirtualBox |
| 13:23 | <hsivonen> | david_carlisle: when is one supposed to use http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/w3centities-f.ent and when http://www.w3.org/2003/entities/2007/htmlmathml-f.ent ? |
| 13:23 | <david_carlisle> | hsivonen: use w3centities if you are me and htmlmathml if you are you |
| 13:24 | <annevk> | hsivonen, so I would buy Parallels plus get a Windows disk somehow? |
| 13:24 | <david_carlisle> | Or more exactly it depends if you care about the iso entity sets that are not in html or mathml |
| 13:24 | <hsivonen> | david_carlisle: ok. thanks. |
| 13:25 | <david_carlisle> | while you are there is it just me or is |
| 13:25 | <david_carlisle> | Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at html5.validator.nu. |
| 13:25 | <david_carlisle> | a general problem at mo? |
| 13:25 | <annevk> | david_carlisle, http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/html5.validator.nu/ |
| 13:27 | <nessy> | annevk: I use VirtualBox on Mac quite successfully - happy with it running ubuntu, window7 et |
| 13:27 | <nessy> | etc |
| 13:27 | <hsivonen> | I'm looking into the html5.validator.nu situation |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | nessy, k thanks |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | guess I'll use that then |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | jgraham was also recommending VirtualBox |
| 13:29 | <hsivonen> | david_carlisle: the server process had died. I'm restarting it now. |
| 13:29 | <jgraham> | I think I have used virtualbox on the mac too |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | david_carlisle: works again now. |
| 13:30 | <jgraham> | (I was recommending it based on Linux mainly, but I don't recall any issues on Mac) |
| 13:30 | <timeless_mbp> | hsivonen: i use vbox on mac |
| 13:30 | <david_carlisle> | hsivonen: thanks, mainly I was just checking I wasn't lying in the polyglot document bug thread when I referenced validator.nu:-) |
| 13:31 | <hsivonen> | VirtualBox has worked for basic browser testing for me when running Windows 7 32-bit over Linux 64-bit |
| 13:31 | <timeless_mbp> | fwiw i'm trying to use hg ann on /source, it's um.. unpleasant |
| 13:31 | <hsivonen> | but I can't test Direct2D stuff with it |
| 13:31 | <timeless_mbp> | annevk: i'm quite happy w/ vbox on mac |
| 13:31 | <timeless_mbp> | i did try parallels on mac, it did have half of a feature i wanted, but it wasn't worth it to me |
| 13:32 | <timeless_mbp> | oh, i was trying to use parallels to access a legacy usb video capture device |
| 13:32 | <hsivonen> | Parallels makes it easier to make throw-away virtual machine copies |
| 13:32 | <annevk> | guess now I need to get an Ubuntu iso and maybe a Windows 7 iso |
| 13:32 | <timeless_mbp> | it almost supported it, but my guest os's didn't really :) |
| 13:32 | <hsivonen> | if you copy a Parallels VM, it say, "hey, you copied a VM. do you want it to work?" |
| 13:32 | <hsivonen> | then you say yes and it works |
| 13:33 | <timeless_mbp> | in vbox you don't bother, just make a snapshot and diverge... |
| 13:33 | <hsivonen> | with VirtualBox, if you copy a VM, it says you have a corrupt VM |
| 13:33 | <timeless_mbp> | at least, that's what i normally do... |
| 13:33 | timeless_mbp | is pretty sure there's a way to clone a vm using some command, possibly even a gui, not sure |
| 13:34 | <timeless_mbp> | #vbox is user help, i'm supposed to visit #vbox-dev and give them a patch this week |
| 13:39 | <roc> | Parallels and VirtualBox do not support record and replay, therefore they are inferior |
| 13:40 | <jgraham> | roc: I hope VMWare are paying you well ;) |
| 13:41 | <roc> | the money tends to flow in the other direction |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen> | roc: does R&R work in practice on non-Windows yet? |
| 13:42 | <roc> | no |
| 13:43 | <hsivonen> | I wish one day Linux GUI debugging advanced to the state where I could launch Firefox in the Eclipse gdb front end |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | now at least I have gotten so far that I can attach the Eclipse gdb front end to an Eclipse-launched Firefox process |
| 13:44 | <hsivonen> | I'm not holding my breath for this stuff working with a VM thrown into the mix :-( |
| 13:59 | <timeless_mbp> | roc: but that's what we have you for :) |
| 14:01 | <annevk> | wait, VirtualBox for Mac is 32bit? |
| 14:02 | <timeless_mbp> | um |
| 14:02 | <timeless_mbp> | i'm using 64bit |
| 14:02 | <timeless_mbp> | at least, i think i am |
| 14:02 | <timeless_mbp> | it certainly has 64bit kernel support |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | when installing Ubuntu it complaints that my CPU is 32bit |
| 14:03 | <timeless_mbp> | and it can host 64bit os's even if the host os isn't 64bit |
| 14:03 | <timeless_mbp> | you have to select a 64bit guest emulation |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | where do you do that? |
| 14:05 | <timeless_mbp> | hrm, maybe you don't |
| 14:05 | timeless_mbp | ponders |
| 14:05 | <timeless_mbp> | http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Guest_OSes |
| 14:05 | <timeless_mbp> | how old is your computer? |
| 14:05 | <hsivonen> | I hate it when I don't manage to write a test that fails without a fix |
| 14:05 | <timeless_mbp> | to do 64bit guest iirc requires hardware support |
| 14:06 | <timeless_mbp> | annevk: hold on |
| 14:06 | <timeless_mbp> | annevk: when you create the vm |
| 14:06 | <timeless_mbp> | by using the 'new' button |
| 14:06 | <timeless_mbp> | in the lower (os) drop down, select <some linux> 64 |
| 14:07 | <timeless_mbp> | sorry in the upper you chose Linux (OS), in the lower (Version) you choose <some linux> 64 |
| 14:07 | <annevk> | ooh thanks |
| 14:07 | <timeless_mbp> | sorry, i knew i'd seen it, but i haven't made one in ages :) |
| 14:08 | <timeless_mbp> | on my mac i have 4 things which aren't 64bit: GoogleTalk, GoogleTalk, Flash, QuickSilver |
| 14:08 | <timeless_mbp> | everything else is 64bit :) [I changed to 64bit kernel this morning] |
| 14:08 | <timeless_mbp> | wah, and Picasa :( |
| 14:14 | <Tux> | Hello. After a great html5 code camp this weekend I decided to post a proposal to the new html5 specification: I would like to see an "acronym" parameter on the <abbr> tag. This to help text readers how to pronounce abbreviations. |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | Tux, why can't they do that based on a dictionary? |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | Tux, I mean, how is this more of a problem than any other number of items for which there might be ambiguities |
| 14:20 | <zcorpan> | hmm i don't know what to make of http://html5doctor.com/html5-simplequiz-3-how-to-mute-a-video/#comments |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I guess at least some authors don't expect attribute reflection to work like it does |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: if we made .async not reflect fully, I think the only people who'd notice would be people implementing the DOM property or people writing test cases for it |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | zcorpan, when browsers give such diverse answers we usually just go with something |
| 14:25 | <Tux> | annevk: It can be based on a dictionary. But as with other things in html5 it was written to help text readers. In html4 there was an acronym tag which is now deprecated. |
| 14:26 | <Tux> | To deprecate it is all nice, but I miss the option as a parameter |
| 14:27 | <zcorpan> | annevk: browsers? |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | zcorpan, yeah, for a testcase |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | Tux, <acronym> could not be meaningfully used for that |
| 14:28 | <Philip`> | Tux: http://philip.html5.org/data/abbr-acronym.txt - I don't think text-to-speech could reliably derive much pronunciation information from abbr vs acronym |
| 14:28 | <Philip`> | and almost all abbreviations/acronyms aren't marked up at all |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan> | annevk: what are you talking about? |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | zcorpan, I'm saying your question was a testcase and the answers are diverse so we should just go with something |
| 14:30 | <annevk> | or you could set up usability testing I suppose, but for something this simple I am not sure that is worth it |
| 14:30 | <zcorpan> | annevk: oh. now i follow what you're saying |
| 14:31 | <zcorpan> | i guess the lesson here is that it might not be a good idea to ask authors what they think when doing language design, since everyone apparently have different ideas about how it should be |
| 14:34 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I invited comments on the <p><figure> thing from authors. have there been any? |
| 14:35 | <hsivonen> | (other than the comment from Tab, but he is now deeper in the spec land) |
| 14:42 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: where did you invite the comments? |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | zcorpan, on public-html |
| 16:25 | <TabAtkins_> | hsivonen: What do you mean "deeper in the spec land"? I'm still definitely an author; I just also get to write specs that I hope to be able to use in the future. |
| 16:27 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins_: I think that disqualifies you from being "just" an author |
| 16:28 | <jgraham> | If you are also a spec author and a browser developer |
| 16:28 | <TabAtkins_> | Sure, I'm not "just", but that doesn't make me "not". |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | No but it does make your opinion less relevant on questions aimed discerning what the average author would find intuitive |
| 16:31 | <TabAtkins_> | Bah. |
| 16:31 | <TabAtkins_> | My opinion as an "average" author was compromised long ago, when I started caring about standards. |
| 16:33 | <TabAtkins_> | Hmm. I wonder how using <details> for a tablist would work, if you ripped out the <summary>s via CSS to display together. Sounds like it has potential. |
| 16:40 | <TabAtkins_> | I forget - does [open] on details reflect the current open state? |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | yes |
| 16:40 | <TabAtkins_> | kk |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | that might also cause mutating on parsing given a preference to open all <details> by default |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | and maybe when printing |
| 16:41 | <TabAtkins_> | Yeah, sure. |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | I don't like it at all for that reason |
| 16:41 | <TabAtkins_> | That's what you want, in terms of styling, though. |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | for styling we could just have :open |
| 16:42 | <TabAtkins_> | Well, I suppose you could just introduce :open, yeah. |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | would be more consistent too |
| 16:42 | <TabAtkins_> | Either way works for me. |
| 16:42 | <TabAtkins_> | Bug Hixie on it, then. |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | why do I need to use :checked here and [open] there? aaah |
| 16:42 | <TabAtkins_> | Yeah, good argument. |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | I failed to convince him |
| 16:42 | <TabAtkins_> | You actually file a bug? |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | and I don't care enough I guess; I just think it's silly |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | no |
| 16:43 | <TabAtkins_> | k, I'll do so. |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | good luck, you got my vote |
| 16:43 | <TabAtkins_> | How would it be reflected, then? defaultOpen, like muted and value? |
| 16:43 | <TabAtkins_> | How does checked reflect? |
| 16:44 | <annevk> | .checked is the actual value, .defaultChecked is checked="" and [checked] |
| 16:44 | <TabAtkins_> | Okay, cool. |
| 16:48 | <annevk> | yeah: http://enterprise-html.com/4 |
| 16:48 | <TabAtkins_> | Aw yeah. |
| 16:50 | <annevk> | only 39 bugs left |
| 16:50 | <annevk> | way to go Hixie |
| 16:50 | <Workshiva> | Wait what |
| 16:50 | <Workshiva> | It has unpaired quotes |
| 16:52 | <TabAtkins_> | Workshiva: ?_? |
| 16:52 | <Workshiva> | Also, what has science done: http://enterprise-html.com/10 |
| 17:59 | <TabAtkins_> | Workshiva: Science has made some bitching broken lines from any-to-any HTML document, that's what. |
| 19:38 | <hsivonen> | TabAtkins_: I mean you may know too much about language design from the spec writing side to have opinions like a typical author |
| 19:44 | <zcorpan> | oh, the xml-stylesheet PER period is over |
| 19:45 | <zcorpan> | seems there were no comments |
| 19:46 | <zcorpan> | (though there were a number of comments before PER) |
| 20:11 | <karlcow> | http://ksi.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/archives/WWW-TALK/www-talk-1993q2.messages/672.html |
| 20:12 | <karlcow> | <nav> |
| 21:29 | <jcranmer> | timeless_mbp: you work at the same place as smaug____ ? |
| 21:29 | <TabAtkins> | timeless works for Nokia, but is a Mozilla contributor. |
| 21:29 | <jcranmer> | I know that |
| 21:29 | <jcranmer> | but the hostmasks |
| 21:30 | <jcranmer> | @YZKMMDCCLV.gprs.sl-laajakaista.fi versus @a88-115-8-36.elisa-laajakaista.fi |
| 21:30 | <AryehGregor> | That looks like the same ISP to me. |
| 21:30 | <AryehGregor> | Although the second-level domain is actually different, in fact. |
| 21:30 | <AryehGregor> | So maybe not. |
| 21:30 | <AryehGregor> | "laajakaista" means "broadband" in Finnish, apparently. |
| 21:30 | <jcranmer> | I don't know Finnish, so I can't say what's true |
| 21:31 | <AryehGregor> | So probably two different companies. |
| 21:31 | <jcranmer> | hmm |
| 21:31 | <nw> | yeah, they're basically the same isp |
| 21:31 | <nw> | sl = saunalahti, which is a daughter company of elisa |
| 21:31 | <TabAtkins> | So it seems all you can draw is that they both work in Finland. |
| 21:32 | <nw> | and laajakaista is indeed broadband |
| 21:35 | <smaug____> | jcranmer: I work for Mozilla |
| 21:35 | <jgraham> | Is it me or are there a surprisingly high number of people from finland in here? |
| 21:35 | <jcranmer> | then why are you on an .fi ? |
| 21:35 | <smaug____> | why wouldn't I |
| 21:35 | <jcranmer> | I didn't realize Mozilla had an office in finland |
| 21:35 | <smaug____> | you know, Mozilla is a global project/organization |
| 21:36 | <smaug____> | there is no office in Finland |
| 21:36 | <jcranmer> | yes, I'm aware of the offices in Toronto, Mountain View, and New Zealand |
| 21:36 | <smaug____> | just I and hsivonen |
| 21:36 | <jcranmer> | ah |
| 21:36 | jcranmer | had thought you were at the MV office |
| 21:36 | <timeless_mbp> | well |
| 21:36 | <AryehGregor> | Lots of Mozilla people aren't in offices. |
| 21:36 | <jgraham> | (one might naively expect about twice as many people from London as from Finland) |
| 21:36 | <timeless_mbp> | you can conclude we have a Point of Presence in Finland |
| 21:37 | <timeless_mbp> | you can't even conclude we work here |
| 21:37 | <timeless_mbp> | (we do, but...) |
| 21:38 | <AryehGregor> | http://hire.jobvite.com/CompanyJobs/Jobs.aspx?c=qpX9Vfwa "Most positions are based at our headquarters in Mountain View, California, but we also have offices in Tokyo, Paris, Toronto, Beijing and Auckland (with more to come!). Not near one of our offices? Mozilla thrives as an organization because of our diverse and distributed workforce, so remote employment is an option." |
| 21:38 | <timeless_mbp> | oh, you should also conclude that DNS is good for spoofing, because you were more or less spoofed :) |
| 21:38 | jgraham | presumes he appears somewhere on the US east coast despite being nowhere near there |
| 21:38 | <jgraham> | And Hixie is not actually in Norway |
| 21:38 | <AryehGregor> | web22.webfaction.com |
| 21:40 | <timeless_mbp> | jgraham: i can't find any useful pointer w/ whois for webfaction.com |
| 21:40 | <jgraham> | http://www.webfaction.com/ |
| 21:40 | <timeless_mbp> | yeah, i can't find any addresses there |
| 21:40 | <timeless_mbp> | not in contact and not in jobs |
| 21:41 | <jgraham> | Well the default server timezone is what I am using |
| 21:41 | <jgraham> | Doesn't narrow it down much |
| 21:42 | <Philip`> | traceroute strongly suggests Dallas |
| 21:42 | <AryehGregor> | traceroute seems to suggest Texas. |
| 21:42 | <AryehGregor> | Dallas specifically, yeah. |
| 21:42 | <timeless_mbp> | dllstx6 |
| 21:42 | <timeless_mbp> | hrm, yeah dallas-texas |
| 21:42 | <timeless_mbp> | but that requires you to be awake |
| 21:42 | <AryehGregor> | Well, theplanet.com is the ISP. |
| 21:42 | <timeless_mbp> | it's nearly midnight here |
| 21:42 | <AryehGregor> | theplanet-cr01.dallas.tx.ibone.comcast.net |
| 21:42 | <AryehGregor> | That's the last interesting one, before the ISP. |
| 21:43 | <timeless_mbp> | http://pastebin.mozilla.org/820843 |
| 21:43 | <AryehGregor> | (well, from my traceroute) |
| 21:43 | <timeless_mbp> | i didn't come in via comcast, you got a US connect |
| 21:43 | <AryehGregor> | Although it so happens that I used to host my website on The Planet and could probably have remembered their main data center is in Dallas. |
| 21:43 | <jgraham> | (the parent company seems to be registered in London) |
| 21:43 | <timeless_mbp> | theplanet seems to have a uk peer |
| 21:44 | <AryehGregor> | Huh, yeah, you're jumping across the ocean without any intermediary there. |
| 21:44 | <timeless_mbp> | AryehGregor: that'd definitely be cheating |
| 21:44 | <AryehGregor> | Well, theplanet.com says so, so it's not totally cheating. |
| 21:44 | Philip` | goes through Level3 all the way to Dallas, then theplanet |
| 21:45 | <timeless_mbp> | wow, theplanet actually lists an international phone number |
| 21:45 | <timeless_mbp> | that's just odd |
| 21:45 | <timeless_mbp> | do you guys see that too? <https://www.theplanet.com/content/images/shell/footer-contact.jpg>; |
| 21:46 | <AryehGregor> | Yes. |
| 21:46 | <jgraham> | It would be more odd if we didn't :) |
| 21:46 | <timeless_mbp> | jgraham: they could be geo reversing me |
| 21:46 | <timeless_mbp> | and giving me intl content |
| 21:46 | <timeless_mbp> | hrm, yeah, i think i came in via theplanet's uk pop, because the ms delay between 8 and 9 would be a pond crossing |
| 21:47 | <timeless_mbp> | smaug____: so…. my stupid DVR's remote stopped working. i'm trying to use my n900 as a remote |
| 21:47 | <jgraham> | timeless_mbp: Oh well in that case AryehGregor is the only person with an interestingly different perspective |
| 21:47 | <timeless_mbp> | but the programming for it doesn't know about Play/Pause/FF/Rewind/menu |
| 21:48 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm? |
| 21:49 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: You are the only person in the US that is participating in the conversation |
| 21:49 | <timeless_mbp> | jcranmer is in the us |
| 21:49 | <timeless_mbp> | but he dropped out |
| 21:50 | <jgraham> | Fair point |
| 21:50 | <AryehGregor> | Well, I can also use my server in Amsterdam if we need more European perspectives. |
| 21:50 | <timeless_mbp> | heh |
| 21:50 | <timeless_mbp> | i have half a dozen PoPs in the US, but i'm too lazy :) |
| 21:50 | <jcranmer> | huh |
| 21:51 | <timeless_mbp> | but seriously, have any of you actually seen US International formatted phone numbers on web pages? |
| 21:51 | <AryehGregor> | I think right now I only have New York, Denver, and Amsterdam. Hmm, maybe Tampa. |
| 21:51 | timeless_mbp | can't recall seeing such things |
| 21:51 | <AryehGregor> | I don't even know what a US International formatted phone number is. |
| 21:51 | <AryehGregor> | If I see something that doesn't look like an American number, I ignore it. |
| 21:51 | <AryehGregor> | My brain files it under "crazy foreign stuff". |
| 21:51 | <timeless_mbp> | i have DC, Was State, CA |
| 21:51 | <timeless_mbp> | AryehGregor: heh |
| 21:51 | <TabAtkins> | Presumably the +1-xxx-yyy-zzzz? |
| 21:52 | <timeless_mbp> | TabAtkins: the picture above was 001 |
| 21:52 | <timeless_mbp> | https://www.theplanet.com/content/images/shell/footer-contact.jpg |
| 21:52 | <TabAtkins> | Oh yeah, that would confuse the hell out of me. |
| 21:52 | <timeless_mbp> | even +1 format is relatively rare |
| 21:52 | <timeless_mbp> | oh speaking of funnies |
| 21:52 | <timeless_mbp> | lemme get nokia's page of stupidity |
| 21:52 | TabAtkins | hates the mysterious convention of putting 0s in phone numbers that aren't actually typed. |
| 21:53 | <jgraham> | In international codes? |
| 21:53 | <timeless_mbp> | load http://www.nokia.com/about-nokia/contacts/nokia-offices |
| 21:53 | <TabAtkins> | In any phone number, ever. It seems to be common in English phone numbers, iirc. |
| 21:53 | <timeless_mbp> | at the bottom in Select location: |
| 21:53 | <jgraham> | Oh |
| 21:53 | <timeless_mbp> | select United States of America |
| 21:53 | <timeless_mbp> | then stare at the phone numbers |
| 21:54 | <timeless_mbp> | TabAtkins: by English you mean UK? |
| 21:54 | <jgraham> | You mean like in 0044 (0)1223 461 926? |
| 21:54 | <TabAtkins> | ...um? |
| 21:54 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: No, go further down. |
| 21:54 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: There's a dropdown that you can select a country in. |
| 21:54 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: omg |
| 21:55 | <timeless_mbp> | TabAtkins: jgraham was responding to your comment about untyped 0's |
| 21:55 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: Nothing to do with the page :) |
| 21:55 | timeless_mbp | waits for the rest of the people to load the nokia-offices page |
| 21:55 | <TabAtkins> | timeless_mbp: Sure, maybe. I just recall serving customers in that timezone, and having to try to figure out how to dial their numbers correctly. |
| 21:55 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: Oh, okay. Then yes. |
| 21:55 | <timeless_mbp> | TabAtkins: yeah |
| 21:55 | <timeless_mbp> | just trying to establish you meant the country-region not the language-set |
| 21:56 | <jgraham> | Yeah the (0) in the middle you have to dial from the UK but not internationally |
| 21:56 | <jgraham> | That is the only confusing thing afaik |
| 21:56 | <timeless_mbp> | it's actually common in a lot of european countries |
| 21:56 | <timeless_mbp> | anyway, jgraham, et al, try the nokia-offices page :) |
| 21:57 | <AryehGregor> | American numbers are so nice and simple. |
| 21:57 | <timeless_mbp> | AryehGregor: |
| 21:57 | <timeless_mbp> | 23621 Park Sorrento Road |
| 21:57 | <timeless_mbp> | 91302 Calabasas, California |
| 21:57 | <timeless_mbp> | United States of America |
| 21:57 | <timeless_mbp> | Tel: 18 188 766 000 |
| 21:57 | <timeless_mbp> | Fax: 18 188 766 089 |
| 21:57 | <AryehGregor> | Especially if you live in a place where you're not allowed to dial without an area code, like Manhattan. Then it's just a fixed 11 digits. |
| 21:58 | timeless_mbp | grew up w/ 7 digit dialing, and then the DC area switched to 10 digit dialing |
| 21:58 | <jcranmer> | actually, you can do 10 digits |
| 21:58 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Well, 10 digits usually. |
| 21:58 | <jcranmer> | you don't need the 1 |
| 21:59 | <AryehGregor> | Really? |
| 21:59 | <TabAtkins> | yeah. |
| 21:59 | <AryehGregor> | I never knew that. |
| 21:59 | <timeless_mbp> | heh |
| 21:59 | <jcranmer> | so I just dial 703-xxx-xxxx to get to my cell phone, e.g. |
| 21:59 | AryehGregor | will have to try it. |
| 21:59 | <timeless_mbp> | fwiw, w/ a cell phone i prefer +1 |
| 21:59 | <timeless_mbp> | because then my phone still works when i take it somewhere else |
| 21:59 | <AryehGregor> | I assumed that if that worked, it would only be because the phone intelligently prefixes the 1. |
| 21:59 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: I assure you that, in America, American numbers do not require the 1. |
| 22:00 | <jcranmer> | you generally need it if you're going long-distance |
| 22:00 | <AryehGregor> | Theoretically, if you used an old simple phone with no fancy computers inside, it still wouldn't need the 1? |
| 22:00 | <TabAtkins> | It's just part of our switching. |
| 22:00 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 22:00 | <TabAtkins> | jcranmer: Sometimes? |
| 22:00 | <jgraham> | Presumably outside America you need 001 |
| 22:00 | <timeless_mbp> | AryehGregor: it's the network |
| 22:00 | <AryehGregor> | I'll have to test that. |
| 22:00 | <timeless_mbp> | you need a prefix to escape the us |
| 22:00 | <jcranmer> | TabAtkins: I've always dialed 1 if it's not a 703 or 571 area code |
| 22:00 | <timeless_mbp> | (00) |
| 22:00 | <jcranmer> | except on my cellphone |
| 22:00 | <jcranmer> | I've just never bothered to try |
| 22:00 | <timeless_mbp> | the 1 has been needed for non local regions |
| 22:01 | <timeless_mbp> | it meant "i want the long distance operator" |
| 22:01 | <timeless_mbp> | as opposed to "i'm dialing in my local region" |
| 22:01 | <timeless_mbp> | which could be NY-city metro |
| 22:01 | <timeless_mbp> | or DC-metro |
| 22:01 | <TabAtkins> | jcranmer: I never dial the 1 within America unless the number specifically fails and tells me to. |
| 22:01 | <timeless_mbp> | (301, 202, 703, later 240) |
| 22:01 | <jcranmer> | timeless_mbp: 571 |
| 22:01 | <TabAtkins> | Calling between California and Texas in both directions works fine without it. |
| 22:01 | <jcranmer> | 703/571 is the area code split for No. VA |
| 22:02 | <timeless_mbp> | jcranmer: 571 split later |
| 22:02 | <jcranmer> | aaah |
| 22:02 | <timeless_mbp> | and i didn't know people in it |
| 22:02 | <jcranmer> | it's mostly used for cellphones |
| 22:02 | <AryehGregor> | If I type 123-456-7890, how does it know that I want 1-123-456-7890 and not 123-4567 with the 890 being garbage? |
| 22:02 | <AryehGregor> | It will drop excess digits at the end, right? |
| 22:02 | <AryehGregor> | Er, well. |
| 22:02 | <jcranmer> | I don't know of a local exchange that begins with a 1 |
| 22:02 | <AryehGregor> | Neither a phone number or area code can start with 1. |
| 22:02 | <AryehGregor> | So make it 234-567-8901, then. |
| 22:03 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: The way the system is set up, it can make the assumption safely. |
| 22:03 | <AryehGregor> | Could be 234-5678, no? |
| 22:03 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, that doesn't answer the question. |
| 22:03 | <timeless_mbp> | local exchanges in the US don't begin w/ 1 |
| 22:03 | <AryehGregor> | Area codes can be prefixes of local numbers, right? |
| 22:03 | <timeless_mbp> | nor do local area codes in the US |
| 22:03 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, okay, I fixed the example. |
| 22:03 | <jcranmer> | AryehGregor: if you have 7-digit dialing, you have to specify the 1 to go to another areacode |
| 22:03 | <TabAtkins> | Hmm, sure. I've lived in an area with mandatory 10-digit dialing for so long that I'm not sure how to resolve it. |
| 22:03 | <AryehGregor> | Ah, I see. |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | So if you're in a place where all phone numbers must be ten digits, *then* you can omit the 1, since it's redundant. |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | That makes sense. |
| 22:04 | <timeless_mbp> | yep |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | We had seven-digit dialing here while I was growing up, it switched to ten-digit while I was in high school. |
| 22:04 | <AryehGregor> | So the 1 used to be mandatory for me, then. |
| 22:04 | <TabAtkins> | It switched where I live back when I was in elementary school, so I wasn't making calls back then. |
| 22:05 | <jcranmer> | we did the ten-digit switch like 8-10 years ago |
| 22:05 | <timeless_mbp> | longer |
| 22:05 | <jcranmer> | (703/571 split) |
| 22:05 | <timeless_mbp> | 10 was 2000, we switched before i entered college |
| 22:05 | <jcranmer> | which was either in elementary school or middle school |
| 22:05 | <jcranmer> | probably before middle, though |
| 22:05 | <jcranmer> | so 2001 or earlier |
| 22:06 | <timeless_mbp> | ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_codes_240_and_301 |
| 22:06 | <timeless_mbp> | yeah we split in 1997 |
| 22:07 | <TabAtkins> | I guess we changed when Houston did the 713/281 split. Then it was already in place when we added 832. |
| 22:08 | <timeless_mbp> | 96 and 99 per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_code_713 |
| 22:08 | <AryehGregor> | Argh, my backup scheme is way too slow. I should just get an extra couple of disks, pull out a mirror every time I want a backup, and put in some new ones, rotating the ones I take out every time I want a new backup. |
| 22:09 | <AryehGregor> | That way backup is immediate. |
| 22:09 | <timeless_mbp> | so.. no one found nokia's phone numbers odd? |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | They aren't American. |
| 22:10 | <TabAtkins> | timeless_mbp: I found them extremely weird. |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | That does seem odd. |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | Given the givens. |
| 22:10 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Yeah they are. They're just not formatted American-wise. |
| 22:10 | <timeless_mbp> | AryehGregor: so… the numbers do resolve as american numbers |
| 22:10 | <timeless_mbp> | they just aren't formatted properly |
| 22:10 | <AryehGregor> | Really? |
| 22:10 | AryehGregor | doesn't even know what that means |
| 22:11 | <timeless_mbp> | read them right to left |
| 22:11 | <timeless_mbp> | fill in the places, 4 digit number |
| 22:11 | <timeless_mbp> | 3 digit local code |
| 22:11 | <timeless_mbp> | 3 digit area code |
| 22:11 | <timeless_mbp> | remainder = country code |
| 22:11 | <timeless_mbp> | s/local code/phone exchange/ |
| 22:12 | <timeless_mbp> | i haven't gotten around to trying to find the right person to yell at about that page |
| 22:12 | <TabAtkins> | 18 188 766 000 is an American phone number, but it should be written as 1-818-876-6000. |
| 22:12 | <AryehGregor> | Oh. |
| 22:12 | <AryehGregor> | Hahaha. |
| 22:12 | <timeless_mbp> | "we're *clever*" |
| 22:12 | <AryehGregor> | Some of them are sanely formatted, though. |
| 22:12 | <timeless_mbp> | the top numbers are manually formatted, presumably |
| 22:13 | <AryehGregor> | While we're talking about phones, why is it that caller ID doesn't work on my cell phone? Does it just not work on cell phones period, do I have to tell T-Mobile to turn it on, what? |
| 22:13 | <TabAtkins> | The latter. |
| 22:13 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 22:13 | <AryehGregor> | How might this be accomplished? |
| 22:13 | <TabAtkins> | Caller ID is part of the info passed to your phone by the phone company. |
| 22:13 | <timeless_mbp> | sadly i have no idea how to find the operator for a cell service |
| 22:13 | jcranmer | is also used to seeing numbers as (703) xxx-xxxx, although you drop that when you get to 10-digit dialing |
| 22:13 | <TabAtkins> | I have no idea how to turn it on, though. |
| 22:14 | <timeless_mbp> | AryehGregor: is this TMobile US, or other? |
| 22:14 | <AryehGregor> | It's T-Mobile and it's in the US, so I assume so. |
| 22:15 | <TabAtkins> | My wife points out the Nokia Burlington set, which has the tel arranged in the crazy way and the fax arranged in the US way. |
| 22:15 | <timeless_mbp> | typically there's a * number which gets you something useful |
| 22:16 | <timeless_mbp> | TabAtkins: heh, that's where ArtB's based |
| 22:16 | timeless_mbp | will have to load the page again |
| 22:18 | <timeless_mbp> | ooh |
| 22:18 | <timeless_mbp> | http://forums.t-mobile.com/t5/HTC-HD2/Convenience-codes-for-mobile-devices-Star-codes/td-p/363305 |
| 22:18 | <timeless_mbp> | #686# (#NUM#) - Will display your mobile #. |
| 22:21 | <timeless_mbp> | ok, "611" |
| 22:22 | <timeless_mbp> | is the number for tmobile |
| 22:24 | <timeless_mbp> | (only from your tmobile phone) |
| 22:27 | <AryehGregor> | What does that do? |
| 22:28 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 22:29 | <AryehGregor> | Some kind of magic voice-recognition thing that didn't recognize "Caller ID" and threatened to transfer me to a representative. |
| 22:29 | <AryehGregor> | Well, whatever. |
| 22:29 | <AryehGregor> | If it's not on by default, I assume that means you have to pay extra, which totally isn't worth it. |
| 22:30 | <timeless_mbp> | it should be included |
| 22:30 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm. |
| 22:30 | <timeless_mbp> | you almost certainly need a representative |
| 22:30 | <AryehGregor> | So you're saying it's included but disabled by default? Why? |
| 22:30 | <timeless_mbp> | i'm saying someone probably messed up your account when they configured it |
| 22:31 | <AryehGregor> | Fun. |
| 22:31 | <timeless_mbp> | i've never met a plan which didn't have caller id on by default |
| 22:32 | <timeless_mbp> | out of curiosity, what phone, and do you have someone nearby w/ a cell phone (preferably from T-Mobile)? |
| 22:32 | <AryehGregor> | Nexus One. And other than me, no. |
| 22:32 | <timeless_mbp> | (phones in the US are generally locked to a network, so finding an AT&T phone would probably not get you very far, and a Verizon/Sprint phone wouldn't be GSM) |
| 22:32 | <AryehGregor> | Hmm, wait. |
| 22:32 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe my terminology is wrong. |
| 22:33 | <AryehGregor> | I get the caller's number, but no name, unless it's in my contacts. |
| 22:33 | <AryehGregor> | Whereas the landline here gives a name too. |
| 22:33 | <timeless_mbp> | oh |
| 22:33 | <timeless_mbp> | that's an extra service |
| 22:33 | AryehGregor | knows nothing about phones |
| 22:33 | <timeless_mbp> | that your landline provider is giving to you |
| 22:33 | <timeless_mbp> | possibly at a reduced to 0 rate |
| 22:34 | <timeless_mbp> | or possibly not |
| 22:34 | <AryehGregor> | I think my parents do pay extra for that. |
| 22:34 | <timeless_mbp> | that's not part of the basic spec at all |
| 22:34 | <timeless_mbp> | i don't know of any cell networks which offer that at all |
| 22:34 | <timeless_mbp> | but i'm sure they'd charge for it |
| 22:34 | <timeless_mbp> | you could probably try supercaller-id |
| 22:35 | <timeless_mbp> | looks like that's what you'd want assuming you have a decent data plan |
| 22:35 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, okay. Yeah, I was assuming you just meant "showing the number when someone calls". |
| 22:36 | <timeless_mbp> | next time i'll know to ask :) |
| 22:52 | <heycam> | yeah |
| 23:36 | <heycam> | should new events fired at Window come with an onblah property? how about <body onblah="">? |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, personally. |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | from a spec designer perspective or from an implementor perspective? |
| 23:37 | <heycam> | spec designer |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | yes, ask me to add the relevant stuff to the HTML spec |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | (whatcha adding?) |
| 23:38 | <heycam> | ok. if/when i have a spec to publish that has one, i'll ask. |
| 23:38 | <heycam> | looking at mozAnimationFrame |
| 23:38 | <heycam> | s/F/RequestF/ |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | ah, cool |
| 23:38 | <heycam> | or whatever it's called =P |
| 23:39 | <heycam> | is it the case that all events that fire at window currently have a <body onblah>? |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | heycam: no, but all the events that have a window.onblah that isn't on HTMLElement.onblah have a window.onblah, at least per the HTML spec |
| 23:48 | <heycam> | ok |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | i.e. window.onfoo and body.onfoo are the same lists |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | er, "have a body.onblah" in the second window.onblah above |
| 23:49 | <heycam> | ok that makes more sense :) |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | (DOMContentLoaded is a simple counter-example to your earlier question) |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | (or does that fire on the Document?) |
