| 00:13 | <david_carlisle> | hsivonen: quite large to offset the dependence on the PSVI |
| 00:13 | <david_carlisle> | But most people use a basic xslt 2 processor which has no PSVI dependencies (thank goodness:-) |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | david_carlisle: thanks for the cc btw |
| 00:18 | <david_carlisle> | It's too late for us as we've gone to REC, but can you arrange to get U+1F4A9 into an example in html5:-) |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | no :-P |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | some of the others maybe though :-) |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | the HTML spec is full of in-jokes like that |
| 00:21 | <gsnedders> | heh. |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | i need an arabic username for an example i'm writing |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | something that isn't going to offend anyone |
| 00:27 | <david_carlisle> | hixie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi ? |
| 00:28 | <david_carlisle> | no one could be offended by algebra |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | that's a bit of a long name for a username |
| 00:28 | <Dashiva> | Just al-Khwarizmi then? |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | by "arabic" i mean in the arabic script |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | it's for a bidi example |
| 00:29 | <david_carlisle> | well its more than one name but I don't have the cultral background to cut it down (also I wasnt; sure if you wanted the arabic or ascii transliteration, hence wikipedia link which has both) |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | and i learnt not to assume that something isn't offensive after learning about the weird rules hebrew has for numbering :-) |
| 00:29 | <Hixie> | david_carlisle: yeah, i've been crawling wikipedia for the last few minutes on the same quest :-) |
| 00:34 | <jcranmer> | I would suggest using Allah |
| 00:34 | <jcranmer> | but that might be slightly offensive |
| 00:35 | <Hixie> | i think i'll go with google translate's translation of "Ian" |
| 00:35 | <jcranmer> | أنتاركتيكا ? |
| 00:35 | <jcranmer> | (supposedly, Antaractica in Arabic) |
| 00:36 | <Dashiva> | TabAtkins_: I must say, you spent a lot of time shouting into the wind over at saxonica |
| 00:39 | <Hixie> | the next two people to say anything get their usernames used as examples in this example |
| 00:39 | <jcranmer> | what? |
| 00:39 | <jcranmer> | what is the example? |
| 00:40 | <hober> | yo |
| 00:42 | <Dashiva> | Good, safe to talk again |
| 00:42 | <Hixie> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/complete.html#the-bdi-element |
| 00:45 | <jcranmer> | so nothing I'll regret |
| 00:46 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 00:46 | <Dashiva> | My name appears enough places on the internet as it is, it doesn't need to be in a html spec :) |
| 00:47 | <jcranmer> | bah, stupid social networking ruining my rankings in search results |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: you're already in the spec :-P |
| 00:48 | <jcranmer> | Hixie: you should have been evil and used the last two usernames |
| 00:48 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 00:51 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: Only the acknowledgements, surely |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | no |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | the word "Dashiva" doesn't appear in the acknowledgements |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | but it does appear in the spec! |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | has done for some time |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | ok i gotta go. bbiab. |
| 00:58 | <jcranmer> | see ya |
| 01:36 | <wirepair> | everyone has probably already seen it but... http://www.iestolemylife.com/ |
| 08:41 | <slinkcoding> | yo |
| 11:09 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I am still really wishing for a way to hide the warning |
| 11:12 | othermaciej | would pay money |
| 11:14 | <Lachy> | which warning? |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html |
| 11:16 | <Lachy> | oh, that doesn't show up in the mutlipage version |
| 11:16 | <othermaciej> | with no way to hide it, it makes the draft almost unreadable |
| 11:16 | <othermaciej> | I guess I should use the multipage |
| 11:17 | <othermaciej> | except the multipage is out of date :-/ |
| 11:17 | <Lachy> | or use whatwg version |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | which is probably why it does not show up there |
| 11:18 | <othermaciej> | I find the spec by typing HTML5 into Google or Bing |
| 11:18 | <othermaciej> | in both cases the W3C Editor's Draft is on the first page of results and the WHATWG copy is not |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | wait what? |
| 11:18 | <nessy> | yeah, that surprised me, too, the other day |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | Google is part of our cabal |
| 11:18 | <Lachy> | oh, that sucks. So many people being directed to an inferior version :-( |
| 11:19 | <nessy> | I have it in my browser cache :) |
| 11:19 | annevk | thinks typing whatwg.org/c is faster than doing the whole search nonsense |
| 11:19 | <Lachy> | just keep http://whatwg.org/html5 in your browser history, so that when you start typing the address in your address bar, you get that as your first result in history. |
| 11:19 | <MikeSmith> | I had temporaritly turned off the automation for building the multipage version |
| 11:20 | <nessy> | I type "what" and it's there |
| 11:20 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I need to turn it back on |
| 11:20 | <Lachy> | oh, nice. I wasn't aware of the /c shortcut |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | same here |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | there's also whatwg.org/C for complete multipage |
| 11:20 | <MikeSmith> | I'm running the multipage rebuild right now, should be available in a few minutes |
| 11:20 | <annevk> | and whatwg.org/html is an alias for whatwg.org/html5 |
| 11:22 | <othermaciej> | I think using a search engine with the term "html5" is totally reasonable and probably what most people would do, even if there are cool secret shortcuts |
| 11:23 | <MikeSmith> | update - http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ |
| 11:23 | <MikeSmith> | *updated |
| 11:24 | <MikeSmith> | regenerated |
| 11:24 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, shouldn't the warning from that multipage version link back to the multipage editor's draft? |
| 11:25 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I suppose it should |
| 11:25 | <MikeSmith> | ideally |
| 11:25 | <MikeSmith> | I would need to make a change to the document build to have it do that |
| 11:25 | <Lachy> | also, is that warning only being added for use on the /TR/ version? |
| 11:25 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 11:25 | <Lachy> | ok, so I assume it'll be removed from the editor's draft after that |
| 11:25 | <MikeSmith> | yep |
| 11:26 | <nessy> | excellent, that's what I expected |
| 11:26 | <nessy> | yesterday it was the other way around, which was kinda weird |
| 11:26 | <Lachy> | so how is the HTMLWG able to get away with that? Marcos told me he tried to do something similar recently with one of his widget specs, and was told the warning had to go. |
| 11:27 | <Lachy> | is the W3C changing their policy? |
| 11:27 | <MikeSmith> | we are having a discussion about it |
| 11:27 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 11:27 | <MikeSmith> | this could be considered a pilot maybe |
| 11:28 | <MikeSmith> | I didn't know that Marcos had run into the same problem |
| 11:28 | <MikeSmith> | but it's great to know that |
| 11:28 | <MikeSmith> | because I have already been pointing out that it's a general problem we need to fix |
| 11:29 | <MikeSmith> | we had problems in the past with other specs in the webapps wg |
| 11:29 | <MikeSmith> | one specifically was somebody reviewing a draft of the XHR1 spec |
| 11:29 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, is there telcon facilities available for the HTMLWG meeting at tpac this year? I was thinking about calling in for the DRM topic later |
| 11:29 | <MikeSmith> | we have a voice line in the other room |
| 11:29 | <MikeSmith> | dunno where the DRM discussion is |
| 11:30 | <MikeSmith> | which room it's in |
| 11:30 | <MikeSmith> | I mean |
| 11:30 | <Lachy> | I think the agenda said it was room B |
| 11:30 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 11:30 | <Lachy> | but I'll check... |
| 11:30 | <MikeSmith> | so in that case, if I am in the room, I can skype you in |
| 11:30 | <MikeSmith> | or somebody else could too |
| 11:30 | <Lachy> | oh, DRM is cancelled apparently |
| 11:30 | <MikeSmith> | we used skype to get somebody in for a discussion this morning and it worked fine |
| 11:31 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 11:31 | <MikeSmith> | well, if there are others you want to call into this afternoon |
| 11:31 | <MikeSmith> | just let me know |
| 11:31 | <MikeSmith> | and I will make sure we figure out a way to get you in |
| 11:31 | <Lachy> | so what will be on instead of the drm talk? |
| 11:31 | <Lachy> | agenda doesn't say. |
| 11:33 | <MikeSmith> | dunno |
| 11:34 | <MikeSmith> | maybe the wiki page is update |
| 11:34 | <MikeSmith> | *updated |
| 11:34 | <MikeSmith> | I'll look |
| 11:35 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: I'm guessing the testing discussion mighr run over into that time |
| 11:35 | <MikeSmith> | as long as it's freed up now |
| 11:51 | <Rik`> | karlcow: http://www.opera.com/mobile/next/ videos are served with text/plain instead of video/webm and so Firefox 4 is using the ogg version instead |
| 12:01 | <Lachy> | Rik`, I'll let our web team know |
| 12:02 | <Rik`> | Lachy: thanks |
| 12:13 | <Lachy> | Rik`, the issue will be fixed shortly. Thanks |
| 15:33 | <lyhana8> | hi, is there a better way to express this kind of résumé information: http://pastebin.com/20sg4fx0 |
| 15:34 | <lyhana8> | to express 1) a period of time (a duration), 2) and replace attribute `company`, `place`, `role-description` ? |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | lyhana8, that misses a closing tag |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | ./htmlparser/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java:1228: method does not override a method from its superclass |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | @Override public void zeroOriginatingReplacementCharacter() |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | ^ |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | ./htmlparser/src/nu/validator/htmlparser/impl/TreeBuilder.java:5230: method does not override a method from its superclass |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | @Override public boolean cdataSectionAllowed() throws SAXException { |
| 15:46 | <MikeSmith> | ^ |
| 15:48 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: oops, sorry |
| 16:19 | <lyhana8> | is there a better way to express résumé experience w/ HTML5? http://pastebin.com/h1VasdaJ |
| 16:20 | <annevk> | I think some people would tell you to use a microformat or maybe microdata |
| 16:20 | <annevk> | and it is somewhat ugly to have implied paragraphs imo, but it is allowed I guess |
| 16:20 | <lyhana8> | annevk: nothing in the HTML* recommendation about duration? |
| 16:21 | <lyhana8> | " implied paragraphs"? |
| 16:21 | <annevk> | no, there's no duration markup |
| 16:21 | <annevk> | you will get an implied paragraph around your <span>s |
| 16:22 | <annevk> | see "3.2.5.3 Paragraphs" |
| 16:26 | <lyhana8> | any plan for a <location>? |
| 16:26 | <lyhana8> | or should we use <adress> instead? |
| 16:29 | <annevk> | <address> gives contact information for the containing section |
| 16:29 | <annevk> | so depending on what it is for, it might be ok |
| 16:48 | <lyhana8> | annevk: just for the location, university name and country |
| 16:49 | <annevk> | prolly just use <p> and <br> |
| 16:57 | <lyhana8> | ok, thank |
| 18:12 | <karlcow> | scrivener an authoring tool helping authors to write books. With a feature for exporting as ePub http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cgJ8x-R86M |
| 19:34 | <jamesr_> | Philip`: yt? |
| 19:34 | <jamesr_> | Hixie: or you? got a canvas 2d question |
| 19:35 | <Ms2ger> | Just ask |
| 19:36 | <jamesr_> | what should happen when a page does .getImageData(20000, 20000, 5000000, 500000); ? the spec says that pixels outside the canvas should be transparent black, but do i really have to allocate a gigantic array full of transparent black pixels? |
| 19:38 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, I suppose |
| 19:38 | <jamesr_> | well that's obviously impossible |
| 19:38 | <jamesr_> | so my real question is what should we do about it |
| 19:38 | <Ms2ger> | Though you could use the hardware limitations clause |
| 19:39 | <jamesr_> | and do what? throw an exception, return an ImageData representing a smaller size, something else? |
| 19:39 | <Ms2ger> | Anything |
| 19:39 | <jamesr_> | that's not a very good answer |
| 19:40 | <Hixie> | we can't really define what you do when you hit hardware limitations, since you may be constrained in peculiar ways |
| 19:40 | <Ms2ger> | User agents may impose implementation-specific limits on otherwise unconstrained inputs, e.g. to prevent denial of service attacks, to guard against running out of memory, or to work around platform-specific limitations. |
| 19:41 | <Hixie> | what you _should_ do is return a gigantic array. Ideally, you'd do so by returning a lazy sparse array. |
| 19:41 | <Hixie> | But what you'll probably do is throw an exception like NOT_SUPPORTED_ERR |
| 19:42 | <jamesr_> | having a lazily backed canvaspixelarray would be handy |
| 19:55 | <Philip`> | Hooray, it's Bonfire Night, where we celebrate the capture, torture, unjust trial, mutilation and public execution of a man who fought against an oppressive government, by burning his effigy every year for four hundred years |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | you don't have to celebrate it |
| 19:59 | <Philip`> | But the fireworks are pretty |
| 19:59 | <AryehGregor> | To be fair, presumably the government he wanted to institute would have been about equally oppressive, by today's standards. |
| 20:01 | <Ms2ger> | Real revolution is when the offices change, not just the office holders? |
| 20:01 | <AryehGregor> | On the other hand, if the British instead wanted to celebrate the successful overthrow of tyrannical British rule, you could always move the holiday to July 4. :) |
| 20:01 | <jcranmer> | real revolution is when you change the center of gravity |
| 20:01 | <Ms2ger> | real revolution is when you change gravity |
| 20:02 | <jcranmer> | or perhaps you could do nothing |
| 20:02 | <jcranmer> | and let the Earth revolve |
| 20:02 | <jcranmer> | it's so much fun to take advantage of polysemy |
| 20:02 | <jcranmer> | and as much fun to come up with a reason to use that word |
| 20:31 | <paul_irish> | Just a PSA: We've been using the #html5 channel for developer support and education, recently. If anyone wants to come over, idle, and share knowledge that's cool. Also feel free to route people there from here. :) |
| 20:41 | tabatkins | is stuck in the Brussels airport for the next 14 hours. |
| 20:43 | <Ms2ger> | Do enjoy the waffles |
| 20:44 | <tabatkins> | If I find some waffles, I'll enjoy the hell out of them. |
| 20:44 | <tabatkins> | Sounds like something good to have in about 8 hours, when it's breakfast time. |
| 20:58 | <jamesr_> | tabatkins: how does that even happen? |
| 21:12 | <tabatkins> | jamesr_: Originally I was going to fly to Brussels and arrive at 8am tomorrow, to catch my plane back to the states leaving at 11am. But I was afraid of getting held up by striking, so instead I took a train to Brussels tonight. Now I have to wait til 11am tomorrow to fly out. |
| 21:12 | AryehGregor | enables tcpcrypt on his computer, for the heck of it: http://tcpcrypt.org/ |
| 21:12 | <tabatkins> | 11am european time, that is. |
| 21:12 | <AryehGregor> | Your tcpcrypt session ID is: BF3894EA9BFD9A00A4D5C30B6A175E951E697E96 |
| 21:15 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: Does it work in a way that doesn't e.g. add an extra roundtrip latency to every new TCP connection? |
| 21:18 | <tabatkins> | Philip`: Because it probes for tcpcrypt support, I suspect there's an extra rtt. |
| 21:18 | tabatkins | can't seem to figure out how to install it. The binary is some sort of ".linux" file. |
| 21:18 | <tabatkins> | Also: Bwahaha - |
| 21:18 | <tabatkins> | http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dzww6/who_edits_the_w3c_specs_they_look_like_a_ransom/ |
| 21:24 | <tabatkins> | Hrm, upgrading to Lucid somehow broke the "hold middle-click to make the nub scroll the page" behavior. |
| 22:29 | <hsivonen> | I like the stray comment end that renders on http://www.iestolemylife.com/ |
| 22:30 | <annevk> | tomorrow is going to be one of my lesser days this week |
| 22:30 | <annevk> | I asked the hotel to wake me up at 4:45AM |
| 22:31 | <tabatkins> | hsivonen: The lack of nestable comments strikes again! |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | whenever I read anything about waffles (as in the logs) I am now inclined to ask "do you mean carrots?" |
| 22:40 | <annevk> | kind of sad that no standards suck episodes were recorded |
| 22:40 | <paul_irish> | aww bummer |
| 22:40 | <annevk> | somehow this TPAC felt way more busy than the last one |
| 22:40 | <annevk> | and there was more commuting, which did not help |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | man, i can't even count how much time IE has wasted in terms of the impact it's had on our spec on html |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | s/on/for/ |
| 23:09 | <jamesr_> | i've got a question about table rendering |
| 23:10 | <jamesr_> | the question is how to render a table with multiple <caption>s |
| 23:10 | <jamesr_> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular-data.html#table-model says "Associate the first caption element child of the table element with the table. If there are no such children, then it has no associated caption element." which implies there's only one |
| 23:10 | <jamesr_> | in the case of <table><caption>one</caption><caption>two</caption></table>, gecko and webkit will only render the 'two' caption |
| 23:10 | <jamesr_> | opera renders both |
| 23:11 | <jamesr_> | if the 'one' caption is positioned then gecko, webkit, and opera all render it |
| 23:11 | <annevk> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf06WJQ4FnE lol |
| 23:11 | <annevk> | jamesr_, that is actually a CSS question |
| 23:12 | <annevk> | jamesr_, what HTML5 there says just has affect on the semantics of the table |
| 23:12 | <jamesr_> | if only css actually described how tables should be rendered :( |
| 23:12 | <annevk> | s/affect/effect/ |
| 23:12 | <annevk> | jamesr_, yeah, someone should fix that |
| 23:12 | <jamesr_> | do any of y'all have opinions on what should happen here? |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | better to ask www-style |
| 23:14 | <annevk> | CSS actually says that a table can have multiple captions |
| 23:14 | <annevk> | "Specifies a caption for the table. All elements with 'display: table-caption' must be rendered, as described in section 17.4." |
| 23:15 | <annevk> | but then 17.4 does not define much |
| 23:15 | <jamesr_> | i'm not sure if 17.4 is saying that one caption box is generated per caption, or one per caption-side |
| 23:16 | <jamesr_> | also given that webkit/gecko do not render captions past the first one i'm a little wary of compat issues if i start rendering multiple ones |
| 23:16 | <jamesr_> | looks like www-style is the next step. thanks |
| 23:16 | <annevk> | it's been too long since I looked at the whole formatting/box model |
| 23:18 | <jamesr_> | tabatkins: you have any opinions on ^^ before i spam the list? |
| 23:19 | <jamesr_> | i kinda think 17.4 agrees more with opera here, actually |
| 23:50 | <tabatkins> | jamesr_: Spam the list. I'm not certain about the details. |