| 07:05 | <MikeSmith> | http://code.gregjopa.com/html5/audio/tabplayer/ is pretty cool |
| 07:05 | <MikeSmith> | http://hacks.mozilla.org/2011/01/html5guitar/ |
| 07:07 | <paul_irish> | that's hot |
| 07:09 | <MikeSmith> | oh wow |
| 07:09 | <MikeSmith> | little keyboard thing in Google Translate |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | where did that come from |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | don't remember it being there til today |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | maybe I just didn't notice |
| 07:10 | MikeSmith | tries the Korean one |
| 07:12 | <MikeSmith> | no Japanese one yet |
| 07:12 | <MikeSmith> | but then there's always http://inputking.com/ |
| 07:13 | <MikeSmith> | which works just the same way a native platform/OS Japanese IME works |
| 07:19 | MikeSmith | finds http://code.google.com/apis/language/virtualkeyboard/overview.html |
| 07:19 | <MikeSmith> | http://code.google.com/apis/language/virtualkeyboard/v1/getting_started.html |
| 07:20 | <MikeSmith> | "With the Virtual Keyboard API, you can enable an onscreen keyboard on any text field or text area on your webpage" |
| 09:47 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: !ping |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | vaguely here |
| 09:50 | <Hixie> | about to head to bed |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: did you have a chance to look at that script-checker patch? |
| 10:52 | <benschwarz> | Damnit, missed Hixie's messages |
| 10:52 | <benschwarz> | oh well. |
| 10:53 | <benschwarz> | just wanted you to check the progress and intro text :) |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | @WHATWG still works, yay |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | I was wondering whether excluding editorial edits was actually necessary... |
| 10:59 | <MikeSmith> | I think some of supposedly editorial edits are often things other people might actually like to know about |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | Yeah... |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | Anyone else? |
| 11:01 | <MikeSmith> | for example, http://html5.org/r/5751 |
| 11:01 | <MikeSmith> | "Add best-practices sections for media elements" |
| 11:02 | <MikeSmith> | maybe Hixie needs to add another flag to distinguish potentially interesting editorial changes from mundane ones |
| 11:02 | <Ms2ger> | Wasn't that @html5? |
| 11:02 | <Ms2ger> | http://twitter.com/html5/status/23525623414652928 |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | @html5 has a lot of stuff |
| 11:03 | <annevk> | also it does not seem to filter Hixie's checkin messages |
| 11:03 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, and I'm considering turning of the notifications about spec changes getting retweeted there |
| 11:04 | <MikeSmith> | now that @whatwg is working again |
| 11:04 | <MikeSmith> | *turning off |
| 11:05 | <benschwarz> | MikeSmith: is the link that I used on the intro okay? |
| 11:05 | MikeSmith | looks |
| 11:06 | Ms2ger | likes |
| 11:07 | <MikeSmith> | benschwarz: I usually use http://people.w3.org/mike/ these days |
| 11:07 | benschwarz | is talking about http://developers.whatwg.org/ |
| 11:07 | <MikeSmith> | but that's fine too |
| 11:07 | <benschwarz> | MikeSmith: I'll change it over? |
| 11:07 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, or I guess I should blog more |
| 11:08 | <benschwarz> | deploying… |
| 11:08 | <benschwarz> | done |
| 11:08 | <MikeSmith> | man the last time I wrote an actual blog entry at sideshowbarker.net was more than a year ago |
| 11:09 | <MikeSmith> | maybe I can hire somebody to write blog entries for me |
| 11:09 | <benschwarz> | make sure they're cheap |
| 11:10 | <benschwarz> | then I can hire them too |
| 11:10 | <benschwarz> | haha |
| 11:10 | <benschwarz> | my last was in may (the w3c one) |
| 11:10 | <benschwarz> | I'd drafted one when I was in japan, but never released |
| 11:10 | <benschwarz> | boo |
| 11:11 | <Ms2ger> | Might help skimming if the headings were pulled into the left margin, like the notes |
| 11:11 | <benschwarz> | Ms2ger: major headings are pulled left |
| 11:11 | <Rik`> | benschwarz: links in TOC are missing a "call to action sign" (no underline, no hover difference) |
| 11:11 | <benschwarz> | but I do need to properly design something. I've been just pushing the styles around that we had previously and working out how to do useful things to the splitters |
| 11:12 | <Ms2ger> | There's usually only one or two of those, though |
| 11:13 | <benschwarz> | Ms2ger: thats true, I debated about having the numbered sections, but I hid them for now |
| 11:13 | <benschwarz> | I might pull them back out |
| 11:14 | <Ms2ger> | And maybe style ul.brief differently |
| 11:15 | <benschwarz> | Ms2ger: where is it seen? |
| 11:16 | <Ms2ger> | http://developers.whatwg.org/elements.html#global-attributes |
| 11:18 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Does Web DOM Core have tests for not case folding in XHTML for e.g. createElement, getAttribute, tagName, etc. |
| 11:19 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Not in the tests I wrote, at least |
| 11:19 | <benschwarz> | Rik`: I added a hover, for now |
| 11:19 | <Rik`> | benschwarz: thanks |
| 11:21 | <benschwarz> | I'm out for tonight. Queries? Log an issue :) |
| 11:21 | <benschwarz> | laters! |
| 11:22 | jgraham | is unhappy to see that many Web DOM Core tests abuse testharness.js, adding weight to the arguments of those who have complained about the design :( |
| 11:26 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Abuse it in what way? |
| 11:29 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Lots of independent tests in a single test() |
| 11:30 | <Ms2ger> | Blame Anne ;) |
| 11:30 | <Ms2ger> | And doesn't look like it |
| 11:31 | <jgraham> | What doesn't look like it? |
| 11:31 | <jgraham> | https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/src/c7135c7ce9f9/tests/Element-setAttribute.html |
| 11:31 | <jgraham> | Oh, you mean the original question |
| 11:32 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 11:36 | <bga_> | lol compare http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#events-KeyboardEvent-initKeyboardEvent and https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/event.initKeyEvent |
| 11:37 | bga_ | confused |
| 11:42 | <bga_> | hm http://docs.blackberry.com/en/developers/deliverables/11849/KeyboardEvent_569351_11.jsp#KeyboardEvent_initKeyboardEvent_569356_11 |
| 11:48 | <bga_> | also there is tupo in spec |
| 11:49 | <bga_> | in header initKeyboardEvent with `repeat` arg |
| 11:49 | <bga_> | but in details nothing `repeat` arg |
| 12:09 | <smaug____> | bga_: what is strange in that comparison? Gecko implements an old version DOM0 key events, DOM 3 Event (which isn't yet a recommendation) defines key events in a different way. |
| 12:14 | <bga_> | smaug____ i see. branching code hell. |
| 12:14 | <bga_> | w3c + gecko + ie |
| 12:15 | <smaug____> | +webkit + opera |
| 12:15 | <bga_> | does webkit has own implementation of KeyboardEvent interface ? |
| 12:16 | <smaug____> | I don't know what kind of interface it has |
| 12:16 | <bga_> | i see w3c's version in ch10 |
| 12:16 | <smaug____> | Safari 5 might have something else |
| 12:16 | <bga_> | :( |
| 12:16 | <smaug____> | and DOM 3 Events may still change |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | DOM Core tests are not original testharness.js tests |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | they are ported to that format |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | fwiw |
| 12:17 | <Philip`> | bga_: Why would you expect technology as advanced and complex and keyboard input to be interoperably supported already? |
| 12:18 | <Philip`> | We've barely had a dozen years to understand it |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | I'm gonna update WebAppsTweet to also tweet for editorial changes now |
| 12:19 | <MikeSmith> | cool |
| 12:26 | <bga_> | Philip` i`m just trying switch keyboard leds using dispatchEvent :) |
| 12:27 | <annevk> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/WebAppsTweet documents source code for WebAppsTweet |
| 12:36 | <Philip`> | bga_: Uh, that doesn't really sound like it'll ever work :-p |
| 12:36 | <Philip`> | since keyboard events come much later in the chain of processing than LED changes |
| 12:37 | <MikeSmith> | http://vl.kamibu.com/2011/01/why-webgl/ |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | heh, MikeSmith, so friendfeed still has a non-OAuth API? |
| 12:42 | annevk | was looking at how @html5 solved the problem |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: friendfeed uses OAuth for Twitter |
| 13:05 | <matjas> | How about this piece of markup? Price: €99 <small>(VAT included)</small> |
| 13:06 | <matjas> | Thoughts? |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, oh okay |
| 13:07 | <matjas> | okay, annevk didn’t call me out so I’m gonna assume this is a valid use case for <small> |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | heh, looks fine to me :) |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | matjas, could file a bug to get it added to the spec if you want |
| 13:08 | <matjas> | will do |
| 13:21 | <bga_> | heh only ff returns currect Function#length for host functions |
| 13:23 | <schalkn> | Hi all |
| 13:24 | <schalkn> | A belated but Happy New Year to everyone |
| 14:10 | <beowulf> | is Toby Inkster about? |
| 14:47 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I sent you email about code review |
| 14:48 | <MikeSmith> | thanks |
| 14:48 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: sorry for disappearing for the weekend without saying anything |
| 14:48 | <MikeSmith> | no problem man |
| 14:48 | <MikeSmith> | there's no rush on this stuff |
| 14:54 | <MikeSmith> | david_carlisle: just sent a reply to your e-mail message about the MathML schema |
| 14:55 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know why the Openmath stuff is there -- need hsivonen to comment on that |
| 15:07 | <david_carlisle> | MikeSmith: thanks (although I saw the email before i saw you telling me I had an email, ii only sporadically watch the IRC still:-) |
| 15:07 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 15:19 | <jgraham> | Hmm, removeAttribute seems to be case-insensitive in gecko/Opera |
| 15:23 | <Philip`> | "The best solution for HTML5 (via tooling, education, author guidance) is to not fake text entry via canvas elements – much better native mechanisms for text editing already exist in HTML5." - hmm, seems Microsoft opinions are starting to align more and more with the cabal |
| 15:24 | <Workshiva> | You mean the cabal is becoming embraced and extended by Microsoft? :P |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | so I know next to nothing about scripting Flash Player... |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | Are there some JS methods that Flash Player always exposes on object elements that have loaded .swf? |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | regardless of what the .swf is? |
| 15:42 | hsivonen | discovers GetVariable |
| 16:00 | <hsivonen> | Wow. Arista and Transmageddon are so different from every other video compression app I've ever used. |
| 16:00 | <hsivonen> | once you choose WebM, there are no addititional tweakable settings |
| 16:01 | <hsivonen> | it just does something with setting the developers have deemed to be appropriate |
| 16:01 | <hsivonen> | which is very easy for the user |
| 16:01 | <hsivonen> | takes away the trouble of how to tweak the settings |
| 16:02 | <Rik`> | hsivonen: Miro convertor does that too ? |
| 16:02 | <Philip`> | That's no fun |
| 16:03 | <Philip`> | What's the point in encoding videos if it doesn't give you an opportunity to play with exciting strings like -vcodec libx264 -vpre slow -bf 0 -crf 25 -acodec libfaac -ac 2 -ar 48000 -ab 192k which you don't understand and have to randomly tweak until they look like they're probably working? |
| 18:24 | <paul_irish> | is anyone familiar with the `target` style property? apparent use: a { target: new front; } |
| 18:24 | <TabAtkins> | Defined in the link behavior draft (I think that's the right name...). No one implemented it, it's been dead for years. |
| 18:24 | <paul_irish> | thx tab. |
| 18:26 | <Ms2ger> | Not even Opera? |
| 18:26 | <TabAtkins> | Don't think so. |
| 18:27 | <paul_irish> | i learned about it from w3schools http://www.w3schools.com/css3/css3_pr_target.asp ;) |
| 18:28 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, found the original spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-hyperlinks/ |
| 18:32 | <Ms2ger> | Doesn't look like it, indeed |
| 18:35 | <Ms2ger> | Also, doesn't seem like anybody whined about Opera implementing -apple-dashboard-region |
| 18:35 | <TabAtkins> | ... |
| 18:35 | <TabAtkins> | Can I whine about it now? |
| 18:35 | <Ms2ger> | Certainly |
| 18:36 | <Peter`> | I whined about WebKit implementing -apple-dashboard-region :/ |
| 19:02 | <othermaciej> | why in the world would Opera implement -apple-dashboard-region? |
| 19:02 | <othermaciej> | it does nothing in Safari |
| 19:05 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: It only does something in the Widget Runtime |
| 19:05 | <othermaciej> | does the Widget Runtime attempt to run Dashboard widgets? |
| 19:05 | <othermaciej> | (as opposed to W3C widgets) |
| 19:08 | <gsnedders> | AFAIK no. |
| 19:21 | <othermaciej> | then I can't imagine a reason to copy the vendor prefix or even the syntax... |
| 19:34 | AryehGregor | stops arguing with Bjartur |
| 19:48 | <AryehGregor> | Does anyone know of a way to get Live DOM Viewer to work in IE9? |
| 19:48 | <AryehGregor> | The XSS protection blocks saved links. |
| 19:49 | <AryehGregor> | Actually, it completely disables the functionality. |
| 20:04 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, is there some way to create a Range object other than selection.getRangeAt() or range.cloneRange()? |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | document.createRange? |
| 20:05 | <AryehGregor> | Ah, thanks. |
| 20:16 | <Hixie> | btw if anyone sees issues in developers.whatwg.org, ben's asked us to file them in https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues |
| 20:19 | <annevk> | http://twitter.com/WHATWG/status/24561930723131393 |
| 20:19 | <annevk> | and with that I'm off to bed |
| 20:26 | <foolip_> | Hixie, could you add a redirect from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#microdata ? My links are broken :( |
| 20:28 | <beowulf> | Hixie: shouldn't the nav be in the header? |
| 20:44 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, if you're familiar with Firefox's Selection implementation, could you comment on this? http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10624 |
| 20:44 | <AryehGregor> | I'm not sure what Firefox is doing here. |
| 20:44 | <Ms2ger> | Not at all, but I can read the source |
| 20:44 | <AryehGregor> | Ah. |
| 20:48 | <AryehGregor> | Do you know who I could ask? |
| 20:49 | <Rik`> | anyone know the status of user-select: none ? |
| 20:50 | <Rik`> | i see it in a previous draft of css3-ui but nothing in the latest one |
| 20:50 | <Ms2ger> | ehsan on Mozilla IRC, looks like |
| 20:52 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, and Gecko indeed has a direction member |
| 20:52 | <TabAtkins> | Rik`: I'd ask tantek. |
| 20:53 | <Hixie> | foolip_: i think Philip` is the one who can help with that |
| 20:53 | <foolip_> | Philip`, ^ ? |
| 20:55 | <Ms2ger> | And extend() looks like a whole new world of hurt |
| 20:56 | <Hixie> | beowulf: ben's the one who is setting it up |
| 20:57 | <Philip`> | foolip_: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html does redirect for me |
| 20:57 | <Philip`> | after a few seconds |
| 20:58 | <Philip`> | (The 404 page has scripts to do that) |
| 20:58 | <foolip_> | Philip`, but first you see 404 for a while |
| 20:58 | <beowulf> | Hixie: 'k, ta |
| 20:58 | <Philip`> | foolip_: Yeah, I think anything else would need server-side support, and that would be Hixie's responsibility ;-) |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | foolip_: it can't easily be done at the server level because the server doesn't have the fragment identifier |
| 20:59 | <foolip_> | Hixie, oh, didn't know you had redirects like that too |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | Philip`: if you have a list of permanent redirects for page-level updates, stick them in a file in the tarball and i'll merge it into the .htaccess file (the html files still do the fragid redirects right?) |
| 21:00 | <foolip_> | hrm, I don't suppose the script could be run earlier in <head> so that one doesn't get to see the 404 message? I instantly close 404 pages without waiting for the second or whatever this took |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | i can make the 404 page not look like a 404 page |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | file a bug |
| 21:00 | <jgraham> | 1 |
| 21:01 | <jgraham> | Erm... |
| 21:01 | <Ms2ger> | 2 |
| 21:01 | <Hixie> | 2? |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | Hixie: The list is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/fragment-links.js |
| 21:01 | <Ms2ger> | Great minds think alike... |
| 21:01 | <Ms2ger> | And sick minds, too? |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | Hixie: and the 404 page for foo.html looks up foo in that list, and goes to whatever.html#foo |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | Hixie: for any foo (they're not known in advance) |
| 21:02 | <Hixie> | Philip`: ah |
| 21:02 | <Hixie> | k well then that leaves making the 404 page less of a 404-looking page |
| 21:02 | <Hixie> | i can do that |
| 21:02 | <Hixie> | file a bug if you want it |
| 21:02 | <Hixie> | bbiab, lunch |
| 21:07 | <foolip_> | very exciting bug filed: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11722 |
| 21:08 | <foolip_> | before I go on a coding rampage, does anyone have tools to notify you of changes to particular sections of the spec? For example, I'd like to be notified automatically when the <video> section changes, among others |
| 21:17 | <jgraham> | foolip_: You plan to implement that? I would really like it :) |
| 21:18 | <foolip_> | jgraham, well, I really want it, but I was hoping someone else would have it |
| 21:19 | <foolip_> | jgraham, one simple way to do it is to remove the section you want to follow in git and keep moving that patch along until it conflicts, for example |
| 21:20 | <foolip_> | s/git/your favorite VCS/ |
| 21:21 | <cying> | if i want to start manipulating a DOM, do i need to wait for the DOMContentLoaded event? |
| 21:21 | <jgraham> | foolip_: That sounds like a clever hack but not quite like an elegant solution :) |
| 21:21 | <jgraham> | cying: No |
| 21:21 | <gsnedders> | cying: No. |
| 21:21 | <cying> | (if the DOM content is inlined) |
| 21:21 | <Philip`> | foolip_: That sounds kind of indirect - why not just cut out the section you want using regexps, and diff it each time to see what changed? |
| 21:21 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: That extra period cost you |
| 21:22 | <cying> | jgraham: gsnedders: so i can just start manipulating it in javascript without waiting for anything? |
| 21:22 | <jgraham> | cying: Well it has to be loaded |
| 21:22 | <foolip_> | Philip`, something like that was my second idea |
| 21:22 | <foolip_> | for some reason my first idea usually involves git |
| 21:22 | <Philip`> | foolip_: As a bonus, it doesn't involve git |
| 21:23 | <jgraham> | <!-- initial dom --><script><!-- I can manipulate anything in initial dom --></script><!-- final dom --> |
| 21:23 | <cying> | jgraham: is that an event? or do you just mean that the DOM comes from inlined markup before the script? |
| 21:23 | <cying> | jgraham: ahhh |
| 21:23 | <jgraham> | cying: The lattter |
| 21:23 | <cying> | ahhh |
| 21:23 | <cying> | cool! |
| 21:23 | <gsnedders> | cying: You can rely upon everything up to and including the script element being executed being in the DOM, but nothing more |
| 21:24 | <cying> | gsnedders: ah! that must be written somewhere i bet |
| 21:24 | <jgraham> | Yes, that's true, you can manipulate the script itself if you are evil |
| 21:24 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: That won't cause it to run again, though, no? |
| 21:24 | <jgraham> | No |
| 21:25 | <jgraham> | Unless changing the src has that effect? |
| 21:25 | <jgraham> | (for an external script) |
| 21:25 | <cying> | fascinating! |
| 21:25 | <jgraham> | But I think it doesn't |
| 21:51 | <Hixie> | foolip_: i don't think we have any section-specific following stuff, but it would be interesting if someone set that up. |
| 21:51 | <Hixie> | foolip_: part of the problem is knowing how to define a section, since i often move stuff around |
| 22:16 | <jgraham> | me, I might try using an html parser and the document structure to find my way around. Not that easy to get from a line-based diff to "did this section change" of course, but possible |
| 22:20 | <jgraham> | Also, what is the disadvantage of replacing <hgroup> with <h1>Main heading <subhead>Subheading</subhead></h1> |
| 22:21 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 22:21 | <TabAtkins> | That feels weird. |
| 22:22 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: It seems to be equivalent to me, albeit with slighly different legacy fallback semantics |
| 22:23 | <jgraham> | Maybe it is bad if we ever get a :heading selector though |
| 22:23 | <jgraham> | Since we would want that to not match the subheading (presumably) |
| 22:23 | <TabAtkins> | Actually, I think we would want it to match. |
| 22:24 | <TabAtkins> | The subheading is still part of the heading. |
| 22:24 | <jgraham> | So you would do :heading(n) and :heading(n) > subhead ? |
| 22:25 | <jgraham> | To style the two parts |
| 22:25 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, with that structure. Similar with <hgroup>. |
| 22:25 | <jgraham> | It's harder with hgroup, I think |
| 22:25 | <TabAtkins> | Hm. Benefit of <subhead> in that context is that it's a single element, so you don't need to remember what precise heading level was used. |
| 22:25 | <jgraham> | Yeah |
| 22:25 | <oojacoboo> | hixie, like the new spec look :) |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | you mean developers.whatwg.org? |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | that's all ben's work |
| 22:26 | <oojacoboo> | ah |
| 22:26 | <oojacoboo> | http://simon.html5.org/html5-elements |
| 22:26 | <oojacoboo> | I use that, so, I guess he switched it over to the developers.whatwg.org domain |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 22:26 | <jgraham> | And it is more obvious what :heading should match (no question if it is the <hgroup> or the actual heading) |
| 22:26 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: Indeed. Hm, okay, I'm liking your idea better now. |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | jgraham: i still occasionally get 500s when genning the spec with the w3c annotations |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | jgraham: fwiw |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | jgraham: dunno if you care (i just restart my script and that seems to fix it usually) |
| 22:28 | <TabAtkins> | <3 @WHATWG being back up. |
| 22:28 | <jamesr_> | TabAtkins: i'm working on something like https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.mozRequestAnimationFrame for webkit and will want to move towards standardizing it. where would something like this be defined? |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: all annevk's work :-) |
| 22:29 | <TabAtkins> | jamesr_: You mean which standards body? |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | jamesr_: sounds like a cssom thing |
| 22:29 | <Hixie> | jamesr_: annevk's baby |
| 22:30 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I expect it times out sometimes |
| 22:30 | <jamesr_> | TabAtkins: more wondering what it would fall under |
| 22:30 | <jgraham> | But I could check the logs I guess |
| 22:30 | <jamesr_> | there's nothing css-specific about it really |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | jamesr_: CSSOM isn't CSS-specific |
| 22:30 | <TabAtkins> | jamesr_: That's a hard one. |
| 22:30 | <jamesr_> | Hixie: o.O |
| 22:31 | <Hixie> | jamesr_: it's just where media-dependent DOM features go |
| 22:32 | <jamesr_> | why's it called CSSOM then? |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | historical reasons |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | same reason Window is specced in a spec that claims to be HTML |
| 22:44 | <roc> | jamesr_: heycam already wrote something BTW |
| 22:46 | jgraham | wonders if we can have pretty styles for the implementor version of the spec |
| 22:47 | <jgraham> | Although not with the serif typefaces |
| 22:48 | <TabAtkins> | Boo at serifs outside of headings. |
| 22:51 | <oojacoboo> | what's the thought behind not allowing form elements to be styled in any consistent manner |
| 22:51 | <TabAtkins> | The thought is that tantek is working on it. |
| 22:51 | <TabAtkins> | Also: form elements are displayed differently in different browsers/OSes. |
| 22:51 | <paul_irish> | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Tantek-Mozilla-projects#Styling_HTML5_UI_elements |
| 22:51 | <TabAtkins> | Frex, check out a <select multiple> in Opera Mobile. |
| 22:51 | <oojacoboo> | TabAtkins: that doesn't have to be the case |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | jgraham: got to be honest, personally i think the developers edition styles are unusable and love the whatwg spec styles :-) |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | jgraham: but if you have any suggestions as to what would make the spec more usable, let me know |
| 22:52 | <TabAtkins> | oojacoboo: But... it *is* the case. |
| 22:53 | <oojacoboo> | TabAtkins: if that's the attitude everyone took, where will we be tomorrow? |
| 22:53 | <TabAtkins> | The question is where we are *today*. And today we are in a world where form elements are displayed differently in different browsers and OSes. |
| 22:54 | <TabAtkins> | And today I'm willing to let tantek solve that problem. |
| 22:54 | <oojacoboo> | so, the answer is, that someone is working on a consistent styling spec for form elements? |
| 22:55 | <oojacoboo> | or that no one gives a shit, and the way it currently is, is the way it is and will be |
| 22:55 | <TabAtkins> | Yes. Tantek. |
| 22:55 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I think the problem is it depends on the use case. Sometime I would really like narrower columns for easier reading. Sometimes I want as much on the screen as possible |
| 22:55 | <jgraham> | Alternative style sheets are not a good solution here :) |
| 22:58 | heycam | moves requestAnimationFrame higher up his mental todo list |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | jgraham: why would alt ss not be a good solution? |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | jgraham: sounds like exactly the right solution |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | jgraham: i agree that there are different use cases |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | jgraham: i'm happy to add other style sheets or whatnot |
| 23:03 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Because I probably wouldn't know which I prefered until after I had done whatever it was |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | jgraham: or to make the current one better in any way you can suggest |
| 23:03 | <beowulf> | jgraham: what about <h1><em>Main head</em>sub head</h1> |
| 23:03 | <jgraham> | and switching stylesheets probably works badly |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | jgraham: switching stylesheets works fine. |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | jgraham: the other problem seems to apply to any solution. |
| 23:03 | <jgraham> | Hixie: It retains the scroll position? |
| 23:04 | <jgraham> | even if the document is resized |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | jgraham: wait you want to change the style sheet _while_ reading? |
| 23:04 | <jgraham> | and is almost instananeous? |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | jgraham: dude, switching to another document isn't going to maintain your scroll position either and it's gonna be a hecka lot less instantaneoes |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | instantaneous |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | man that's hard to type or dvorak |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | on |
| 23:05 | <jgraham> | Well the point is that I wouldn't realise that I was using the wrong stylesheet until I had already found my position in the document and so on |
| 23:05 | jgraham | notes that he would like to be asleep but there is supposed to be someone returning 1/2 bags that never arrived in England on 20/12/2010 |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | well i don't know how to solve that problem |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | but i'm willing to solve any problem that has solutions :-) |
| 23:23 | <jgraham> | beowulf: Why would that be better? It would negate several of the advantages of the design. If you really wanted to reuse an existing element <h1>Main <small>sub</small></h1> would be better |
| 23:23 | <jgraham> | But I don't really see the point |
| 23:23 | <hober> | I don't really see the problem with <hgroup> |
| 23:24 | <TabAtkins> | Plus, those both prevent you from using <em>/<small> for their intended purposes in headings. |
| 23:24 | <beowulf> | just asking, looked similar to me |
| 23:24 | <TabAtkins> | hober: I don't have a problem with <hgroup>, but I see some advantages to jgraham's idea. |
| 23:26 | <jgraham> | hober: I think that <hgroup> does add some complexity since you have to care about the whole tree to determine if a given <hx> is actually a heading or not |
| 23:26 | <jgraham> | Well the whole parent heirachy at least |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | Hm? Surely you only need to check the immediate parent. |
| 23:30 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: even in the invalid case? |
| 23:30 | <TabAtkins> | Damn invalid cases. |
| 23:38 | hober | thinks Hixie should use a 241543903 image as an example in the spec |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | hm? |
| 23:41 | <hober> | google it and you'll get the idea |
| 23:41 | <hober> | I don't know when this started, but it's quite odd and surprisingly funny |
| 23:43 | <jamesr_> | roc: oh? where is it? |
| 23:44 | <jamesr_> | roc: the major difference in the webkit impl is that we currently don't plan to support animationStartTime |
| 23:44 | <jamesr_> | roc: and i'd like to add an element parameter to .requestAnimationFrame() for authors to use if the animation is tied to some element (i.e. updating a <canvas>), so we can throttle offscreen ones |
| 23:52 | <Hixie> | hober: o_O |
| 23:54 | <hober> | Hixie: that's what I said :) |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | to be honest i try to avoid memes like that because they have a pretty short shelf-life (though i guess this one might have a longer shelf-life than usual since freezers are used to-- never mind) |
| 23:57 | <hober> | I wonder if there are any Alcor photos with this meme involved... |