| 00:02 | <inimino> | TabAtkins_ ⋱ It's a diagonal ellipsis. |
| 00:54 | <annevk> | diagonal ellipsis? wild |
| 01:11 | <roc> | it's for matrices |
| 01:15 | <annevk> | look at that |
| 01:15 | <annevk> | chaals is on bitbucket https://bitbucket.org/chaals |
| 01:22 | <twisted`> | paul_irish: the diveintohtml5.org is a nice document but it's horrible to read |
| 01:23 | <twisted`> | in the sense I have to go back to the TOC to click the next chapter |
| 01:23 | <twisted`> | :p |
| 01:27 | <MikeSmith> | twisted`: somebody should make a bookmarklet for it with the TOC |
| 01:27 | <MikeSmith> | or is it available as a single page? |
| 01:27 | <twisted`> | MikeSmith: there's a single page edition I think |
| 01:27 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 01:28 | <MikeSmith> | there's an extension for Chrome that generates an outline |
| 01:28 | <MikeSmith> | using the HTML5 outline algorithm |
| 01:28 | <MikeSmith> | that would probably be a help with reading it |
| 01:28 | MikeSmith | tries it now |
| 01:29 | <twisted`> | only thing I miss from Opera is the gestures |
| 01:29 | <twisted`> | but personally I'd be all for one browser engine... makes everyone's life a lot easier |
| 01:30 | <annevk> | yeah, IE6 was awesome |
| 01:30 | <twisted`> | we're slowly getting there, on small devices it's already webkit anyway |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | no it's not |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | actually |
| 01:31 | <twisted`> | except for the windows based phones but who the fuck uses that |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | not by a long show |
| 01:31 | <twisted`> | MikeSmith: android is webkit, ios is webkit |
| 01:31 | annevk | was sarcastic |
| 01:31 | annevk | goes to bed |
| 01:31 | <twisted`> | annevk: we assumed |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | twisted`: yeah well |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | that's hardly all the market |
| 01:31 | <MikeSmith> | and other browsers are available for Android |
| 01:32 | <twisted`> | it won't be long I guess before MS gives in and drops IE and goes for webkit |
| 01:32 | <MikeSmith> | yep |
| 01:32 | <twisted`> | I used to love Gecko |
| 01:32 | <twisted`> | but it's just slow as shit compared to webkit |
| 01:32 | <MikeSmith> | everybody will just be giving up and going for WebKit |
| 01:32 | <twisted`> | only thing that made me prefer Firefox is cause I didn't like Safari that much but Chrome is pwnsome |
| 01:33 | <MikeSmith> | you should bet money on your WebKit prediction |
| 01:33 | <twisted`> | it makes sense there are now 2 giant companies working on webkit |
| 01:33 | <MikeSmith> | indeed |
| 01:33 | <twisted`> | it's just that Google made a horrible decision with dropping h264 support in Chrome |
| 01:33 | <twisted`> | 'yay' |
| 01:33 | <MikeSmith> | giant companies can never screw anything up |
| 01:33 | <franksalim__> | everything i use came from a giant company |
| 01:33 | <MikeSmith> | and two giant companies can definitely never screw anything up |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | so it's a really safe bet for sure |
| 01:34 | <franksalim__> | totally |
| 01:34 | <MikeSmith> | I trust the giant companies completely |
| 01:35 | <franksalim> | i don't think you are being sincere, MikeSmith |
| 01:35 | <MikeSmith> | I'm always sincere :) |
| 01:35 | <MikeSmith> | even when I'm not being sincere |
| 01:35 | <twisted`> | MikeSmith: well considering the difference between Webkit and IE is that Webkit is actually opensource |
| 01:35 | <twisted`> | so if they do fubar it |
| 01:35 | <twisted`> | just fork it |
| 01:36 | <twisted`> | Gecko was awesome but because of the marketshare and their 'superiority' they became lazy |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | annevk: yeah i already added the <!-- -->s |
| 01:36 | <MikeSmith> | twisted`: I got news for you: Somebody already thought of that already. It's already forked |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | and will be forked more |
| 01:37 | <twisted`> | MikeSmith: probably, not really following that |
| 01:37 | <MikeSmith> | it's forked already |
| 01:38 | <roc> | yeah, that's us Gecko developers, real lazy. Right now we're all hanging out on the beach drinking pina coladas. |
| 01:38 | <twisted`> | MikeSmith: which fork do you refer to |
| 01:38 | <twisted`> | roc: ;) |
| 01:38 | <MikeSmith> | twisted`: several of them |
| 01:39 | <MikeSmith> | take your pick |
| 01:39 | <roc> | twisted`: really, your theories are incorrect and insulting, OK? So please keep them to yourself |
| 01:39 | <twisted`> | roc: oh nofi it's just how I saw it |
| 02:02 | twisted` | parties |
| 02:51 | <Figaroo> | inimino: my issue with number inputs is that I can't style them |
| 02:51 | <Figaroo> | ...and they're not cross-browser |
| 07:26 | <annevk> | tantek, I'm gonna move the research stuff on the wiki to a "Research" page |
| 08:07 | <phrearch> | hi |
| 08:07 | <phrearch> | does anyone know i the connectionpeer api is already implemented in webkit? |
| 08:08 | <annevk> | yesterday Ericsson Labs published something |
| 08:10 | <phrearch> | yes, i saw the vid. wondering whether how that stuff is related to <device> and media streams |
| 08:10 | <phrearch> | it seems there are 3 apis involved in that demo |
| 08:11 | <phrearch> | connectionpeer api, Stream API and device |
| 08:11 | <phrearch> | it would be great if a patch would land in webkit, just for testing and poc |
| 08:17 | <annevk> | did some more cleanup to the wiki |
| 08:19 | <phrearch> | aah, the device element includes both apis |
| 08:19 | <phrearch> | i cant wait to test this :) |
| 08:27 | <annevk> | I would like to see their spec |
| 08:27 | <annevk> | for the UDP stuff |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | I wish he posted something about the UDP-based thingie they are using as well |
| 09:19 | <annevk> | I guess their blog post does to some extent |
| 09:20 | <phrearch> | yea, thats part of the stream api i guess? |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | no |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | Stream is nothing much |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | it just represents the camera/microphone |
| 09:21 | <phrearch> | aha ok |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | the UDP-based thingie is what is behind ConnectionPeer |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | and somehow I missed they invented something WebSocket-based too for media-streaming |
| 09:22 | <annevk> | https://labs.ericsson.com/developer-community/blog/beyond-html5-conversational-voice-and-video-implemented-webkit-gtk 'new MediaStreamTransceiver("ws://150.132.141.60:8880/delayswitch?sid=0");' |
| 09:23 | <phrearch> | yea, but i think thats the old way the did that |
| 09:24 | <phrearch> | it seems they now use something else for that |
| 09:24 | <phrearch> | connectionpeer i guess |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | that was also TCP-based still |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | they did not modify WebSocket to add UDP support |
| 09:24 | <annevk> | (that's poor wording, but you get the idea) |
| 09:25 | <phrearch> | yea, i thought they added binary support to it |
| 10:07 | <zcorpan> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11129 - boooo! what do people have against these events?? they're convenient |
| 10:08 | <zcorpan> | should we remove all event handler attributes as well since they're "redundant" with addEventListener? |
| 10:11 | <annevk> | also <style> and style="" |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | preprocessor script by CSS WG requires <code title=""> and does not allow <code title> |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | bah |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | want Anolis |
| 10:38 | <annevk> | hsivonen, you around? |
| 10:38 | <annevk> | hsivonen, wondered if you looked into that Android 2.3 thing with webm.html5.org |
| 10:38 | <annevk> | oh btw |
| 10:38 | <annevk> | XHR now has full ArrayBuffer support |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | annevk: not yet, I've been busy with a Hotmail firedrill |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | (Hotmail got updated in away that broke it in Firefox 4) |
| 10:59 | <gggg> | has there been any talk regarding multi-bitrat streaming using HTML5 video? |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | I've seen some discussion on adaptive streaming |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | nothing concrete though |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | foolip would know |
| 11:00 | <foolip> | there's been plenty of talking, but very little implementing, so far |
| 11:01 | <foolip> | gggg, I suggest reading the archives of the FOMS list |
| 11:01 | <gggg> | foolip: on the mailing list? |
| 11:01 | <gggg> | ok, thanks |
| 11:01 | <foolip> | oh crap, the archives are private :( |
| 11:01 | <foolip> | but I guess you could join the list and then read them |
| 11:02 | <foolip> | http://lists.annodex.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/foms |
| 11:07 | <gggg> | interesting. I found this article as well http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Adaptive_Streaming |
| 11:14 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | maybe Feature Proposals should be turned into a category as well to group all those things |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | whoa |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-096 -- it's still not decided whether <progress> is in or out?! |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | that issue is six months old |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | I mean, the poll is seven-eight months old |
| 11:54 | <Lachy> | I think that must be the oldest open issue that's had a poll but hasn't been resolved, closely followed by issue-88 |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | was the wiki never linked from whatwg.org? |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | a direct link that is |
| 11:57 | <Lachy> | I thought it was |
| 11:57 | <Lachy> | might have been removed when the page was last redesigned |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | hmm, research and feature requests should prolly just be merged |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | why can't categories be moved? |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | I guess you can still do that by editing them... |
| 12:32 | <annevk> | revamped http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Main_Page some more |
| 12:59 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 12:59 | <annevk> | now I want to categorize the registries |
| 14:32 | <Workshiva> | So I'm reading the http-state draft and see that it defines a cookie value as a http token. How is javascript supposed to create valid cookie values then? |
| 14:32 | <Workshiva> | All the cookie scripts I can recall use escape(), which does not encode @ |
| 15:52 | <karlcow> | http://littlebigdetails.com/ |
| 15:54 | <slartsa> | nice |
| 15:57 | <bfrohs> | Oh hey, they finally implemented my suggestion to get the unread counts in the icon :) |
| 16:29 | <dglazkov> | Hixie: I really liked the notion of ::xbl(id) pseudo-selector from our conversation yesterday |
| 16:30 | <dglazkov> | Hixie: except I don't want it to be actually named xbl, of course :) |
| 16:30 | <dglazkov> | Hixie: I wonder if you could take some time to update the draft and add this -- and I'll stick it into WebKit? |
| 16:30 | <dglazkov> | Hixie: something like ::shadow(id) might be nice? |
| 16:32 | <dglazkov> | Hixie: or maybe something less conspicuous like ::part(id), as in "part of the component/binding"? |
| 16:54 | <jgraham> | Are iframes with data: URIs @src allowed to access functions in their opener? |
| 16:57 | <jgraham> | AFAICT the spec says no, which seems silly |
| 17:02 | <Workshiva> | Hmm, this cookie value stuff is getting ugly |
| 17:17 | <tantek> | annevk that seems fine |
| 17:17 | <tantek> | not a huge fan of how mediawiki categories work but not that worried about it |
| 17:35 | <foolip> | TabAtkins, cool, I had no idea working with the CSS WG could be so... WHATWG-like :) |
| 19:17 | <TabAtkins_> | foolip: Depends on which editor you're working with. |
| 19:46 | <Ms2ger> | Wiki's down? |
| 19:46 | <Ms2ger> | Not anymore |
| 19:48 | <AryehGregor> | Is there any spec that's supposed to contain stuff like this? https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46733 |
| 20:04 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: do I read the spec right that the spec is trying to say that onload alway fires asynchronously and never synchronously? |
| 20:07 | <AryehGregor> | volkmar_, is Firefox 4 final going to support the slight modification just made to type=email validation, allowing addresses like foo@localhost with only one domain name part? See <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11225>;. I don't see a Mozilla bug for it, should I open one? |
| 20:08 | <jwalden> | AryehGregor: bugs don't get fixed without their being filed, do file |
| 20:08 | <jwalden> | as to whether it will or not, that depends on the bug being filed first |
| 20:08 | <AryehGregor> | :) |
| 20:09 | <jwalden> | it sounds pretty easy, but it seems like not something that will be prioritized for release, to me, unless someone writes the patch and drives it |
| 20:10 | <Ms2ger> | jwalden, I filed |
| 20:10 | <Ms2ger> | And it was fixed |
| 20:10 | <AryehGregor> | Yay. |
| 20:10 | <jwalden> | ah |
| 20:10 | <AryehGregor> | Where's the bug? |
| 20:10 | <AryehGregor> | I didn't see it in a quick search. |
| 20:11 | <Ms2ger> | 627657 |
| 20:13 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, kthx. Isn't it supposed to be marked as blocking some more general bug or something? |
| 20:16 | <Ms2ger> | Does now |
| 20:17 | <AryehGregor> | :) |
| 20:28 | <Hixie> | we should rename http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications to TODO or something |
| 20:34 | <volkmar_> | AryehGregor: it already does |
| 20:34 | <volkmar_> | beta9 should support that change |
| 20:34 | <volkmar_> | hmmm, 10 maybe ;) |
| 20:34 | <AryehGregor> | 10, I think. |
| 20:34 | <AryehGregor> | See, this is why I ask before filing. |
| 20:35 | <volkmar_> | AryehGregor: i have to say that searching for fixed bugs is a pain |
| 20:36 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, the defaults work against you. |
| 20:37 | <Ms2ger> | Just add ALL before your search |
| 20:37 | <Ms2ger> | Knowing it's been fixed helps, of course |
| 21:09 | <Hixie> | hm, misspelt words is an interesting use case for <u> |
| 21:09 | <Hixie> | has that ever been brought up before? i don't recall seeing it |
| 21:09 | <Hixie> | (listed in the CP for <u>) |
| 21:10 | AryehGregor | doesn't recall seeing it |
| 21:13 | <bfrohs> | Hixie, personally, I like the idea, but due to the use of INS and DEL, wouldn't a new tag such as UNS (unsure) be more appropriate? -- new name needed, but it would apply to text that may be wrong (either caught misspelling in a WYSIWYG or a piece of quoted text that was loosely quoted and may not be exact) |
| 21:13 | <bfrohs> | Mainly because <u> already has such a history of being strictly underline |
| 21:14 | <Hixie> | i dunno, i haven't studied how common it is for web pages to indicate spelling mistakes |
| 21:15 | <bfrohs> | Well, I think the spelling mistakes side of the tag would be more for WYSIWYG editors, not so much the final version of the page. |
| 21:15 | <Philip`> | Like in static content, or dynamic spellchecking in text entry fields? |
| 21:15 | <Hixie> | anywhere they'd use an element, i guess |
| 21:17 | <Philip`> | I don't think I've ever seen it in static content, except maybe when people were talking about the Word spelling/grammar checker and using it demonstratively (in which case they don't want arbitrary underline-like styling, they want the precise colour and shape that Word uses) |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 21:40 | <zcorpan> | yay http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/76115 (onformchange and friends) |
| 21:41 | <annevk> | yeah, Companion Specifications is an odd name |
| 21:41 | <annevk> | yeah, Companion Specifications is an odd name |
| 21:41 | <annevk> | Specs TODO |
| 21:42 | <Ms2ger> | So, why is html5lib outputting   instead of ? |
| 21:42 | <zcorpan> | so does webkit's window.onerror impl support <script>onerror=function(){alert('woot')}</script><script>for(;) { lol syntax error</script> ? |
| 21:42 | <zcorpan> | or just uncaught exceptions? |
| 21:43 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: because it's earlier in the entities table, maybe? |
| 21:43 | zcorpan | noticed that web dom core switched from © to © in its output |
| 21:44 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 21:44 | <Ms2ger> | Installing html5lib tip wasn't a good idea, apparently |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | I wonder how these comments work. First positive, then negative, now positive again. I guess incoming link from a positive article invites positive comments and incoming link from a negative article invites negative comments? |
| 21:45 | <zcorpan> | maybe html5lib should have a separate entity table for the serializer where COPY and NonBreakingSpace are not present |
| 21:46 | <zcorpan> | or in some other way have the serializer output nbsp and copy instead |
| 21:46 | <annevk> | the serializer should only need five entries |
| 21:47 | <zcorpan> | what if you want ascii-only and don't like NCRs? |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | haha |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | once you get arguments like "Stealing content was never easier than with HTML5" you know the debate is over |
| 21:53 | <zcorpan> | heh http://twitter.com/tabatkins/status/30336539284209664 |
| 21:53 | <paul_irish> | "Sorry, @onchange, I wasn't talking to you. Collision of microsyntaxes!" |
| 21:54 | <TabAtkins> | I need XML with Namespaces so I can distinguish between @ meaning attributes and @ meaning twitter names. |
| 21:56 | <Ms2ger> | You want curies, for the 140-char limit |
| 21:56 | <TabAtkins> | With predefined prefixes. |
| 21:57 | <Ms2ger> | In an OWL file you reference from your profile |
| 22:00 | <annevk> | foolip, fwiw, http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Video_type_parameters is now a "Registry" of some sort |
| 22:00 | <annevk> | in the sense that it is part of the "Registries" collection |
| 22:00 | <zcorpan> | hmm, apple.com uses SVG with <path>s as a background image for text in the navbar? boo. why don't they use real text + css text-shadow? |
| 22:01 | <Ms2ger> | That would work in other browsers? |
| 22:01 | <TabAtkins> | It woudl work in Safari. Why would they care about everyone else? |
| 22:01 | <TabAtkins> | (And yes, text-shadow has pretty good support.) |
| 22:01 | <roc> | why wouldn't SVG work in other browsers? |
| 22:02 | <TabAtkins> | Also, Ms2ger, we were wondering who you were this morning. I was convinced you were a Moz employee. |
| 22:02 | <david_carlisle> | zcorpan: for serialisation (expressed as xslt2 maps) in the entities spec I omit all the aliases, so nbsp and copy win over the others, easy enough to generate a list of unique entity names from unicode.xml (basically just omit mmlalias and html5-uppercase entity sets0 |
| 22:02 | <Ms2ger> | Moz volunteer, atm |
| 22:02 | <zcorpan> | SVG as background images seems less widely supported than text-shadow |
| 22:02 | jwalden | hopes that svg background image has an intrinsic height and width |
| 22:02 | <roc> | yeah I guess that's true |
| 22:02 | <Ms2ger> | Otherwise you earn a hardblocker, jwalden :) |
| 22:02 | <roc> | but it's better than some -webkit thing :-) |
| 22:02 | <jwalden> | because otherwise they might be hosing themselves, as no browsers implement lack of width right |
| 22:03 | <jwalden> | Ms2ger: I have the patch close to plausibly done :-) |
| 22:03 | <jwalden> | the algorithm is a mess of complexity, tho |
| 22:03 | <jwalden> | if it had to block, I could finish it for then |
| 22:03 | <TabAtkins> | jwalden: I wouldn't mind reviewing. |
| 22:04 | <zcorpan> | if i disable images on apple.com, the navbar becomes unusable |
| 22:04 | <jwalden> | TabAtkins: I'll CC you when I have it working (right now it's only, um, not breaking things that deliberately/intentionally worked before), assuming you have a bmo id |
| 22:04 | <TabAtkins> | I think I do. One sec while I look it up. |
| 22:05 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, I'm in under jackalmage⊙gc |
| 22:05 | <jwalden> | TabAtkins: is the account name something with "atkins" in it, or something? |
| 22:05 | <jwalden> | I'll remember that slightly more readily :-) |
| 22:05 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 22:05 | <jwalden> | but it shouldn't matter either way, really, I hope |
| 22:06 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, yes. "Real Name" is "Tab Atkins Jr." |
| 22:08 | <jwalden> | is this <div id="globalheader"> that has the SVG background image? |
| 22:08 | <jwalden> | looking at it in epiphany I get a data: png image in the CSS |
| 22:11 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: have you put webm.html5.org on bitbucket or so yet? |
| 23:31 | <zcorpan> | so when is http://www.w3.org/TR/html/ going to point to html5? |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | 2022, presumably |
| 23:34 | <zcorpan> | hmm, time to sleep |
| 23:34 | <zcorpan> | nn |