| 00:00 | <jamesr____> | if you have a canvas with an animation, say, it's kind of silly to invoke the callback if the canvas is scrolled way offscreen |
| 00:00 | <heycam> | avoid or throttle down? |
| 00:00 | <heycam> | (and this would be an optional parameter I guess?) |
| 00:00 | <jamesr____> | avoid |
| 00:00 | <jamesr____> | and yeah |
| 00:00 | <jamesr____> | if you don't specify a parameter then it's implicitly the document or whatever |
| 00:01 | <heycam> | ok my concern would be that the results of the animation (element position or whatever) might be used by scripts on the page so we might need to still run them |
| 00:01 | <heycam> | but the author could just not associate it with the element in that case |
| 00:01 | <jamesr____> | right. if they need the thing to run when the element is offscreen then they don't pass the parameter in |
| 00:01 | <jamesr____> | i want to get some more author feedback about how useful this mechanism is |
| 00:02 | <heycam> | that would be good (the feedback) |
| 00:02 | <heycam> | was there a proposal recently on the mailing list about determining whether an element is visible? |
| 00:02 | <heycam> | or was that for a whole page? |
| 00:03 | <jamesr____> | that was about determining if a page was visible |
| 00:03 | <jamesr____> | authors can currently detect whether an element is visible to some degree, but nobody bothers |
| 00:03 | <jamesr____> | so i'd like to make that the default behavior |
| 00:03 | <jamesr____> | imagine a web page with 5 animated banner ads implemented as <canvas>. it'd be really awesome if the default behavior was that we only spent CPU updating animations on the ones that were visible |
| 00:04 | <heycam> | yeah. seems good to me at first glance. |
| 00:06 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: the <header> is inside the <head>, any ideas? |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | benschwarz: context? |
| 00:07 | <benschwarz> | ha. sorry |
| 00:07 | <benschwarz> | apparently I only told the voices in my head :/ |
| 00:07 | <benschwarz> | after the spec splitter runs, I find <header class="head"> inside the <head> element |
| 00:07 | <benschwarz> | not sure exactly when it occurs yet, but it does… |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | odd |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | dunno |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | gsnedders, jgraham, and Philip` might know |
| 01:22 | <Rik`> | out of curiosity, anyone knows who is maintaining the @html5 account on twitter? |
| 01:23 | <TabAtkins> | Dunno. |
| 01:27 | <benschwarz> | Rik`: Hixie, I think |
| 01:28 | <TabAtkins> | No, Hixie doesn't touch that one. |
| 01:28 | <Rik`> | that looks like a very marketing thing for Hixie :) |
| 01:29 | <TabAtkins> | All right, formatting cleanup for Lists is *done*. Time to commit, then work on actual changes. |
| 01:32 | <jamesr____> | TabAtkins: when defining an algorithm with numbered steps, how do you mark it up? if i just use <ol> and <li> then how do i say something like "go to step 4" without manually updating that whenever i change the list? |
| 01:32 | <TabAtkins> | I use ol, and manually update when I change the list. |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | Rik`: MikeSmith |
| 01:33 | <TabAtkins> | Alternately, use ol, but name the important steps, and then refer to steps by name. |
| 01:33 | <uf02> | TabAtkins: question for you, how long do you think till they implement variables, mixins, nesting inside CSS3 or 4? |
| 01:33 | <uf02> | I mean realistically |
| 01:33 | <uf02> | I know you guys are working on it |
| 01:33 | <Rik`> | Hixie: thanks |
| 01:34 | <TabAtkins> | uf02: We're working on it now, so experimental implementations should hit the tree in some time period measurable in months. If everything goes nicely, other browsers could have experimental implementations by the end of the year. But this is all speculation. |
| 01:34 | <heycam> | jamesr____, the xslt thingo I use for Web IDL uses some processing instructions to reference step numbers |
| 01:34 | <TabAtkins> | Good thing is, all of that stuff is syntax sugar, so you can use a preprocessor immediately and get all the benefits. |
| 01:34 | <heycam> | to reference steps, that is |
| 01:35 | <uf02> | TabAtkins: the only thing I don't like about preprocessor is that is Ruby based |
| 01:35 | <uf02> | don't get me wrong SASS is effin great |
| 01:35 | <uf02> | but compiling is annoying |
| 01:35 | <uf02> | versusing just having editor you like and writing and boom |
| 01:35 | <uf02> | done. |
| 01:36 | <uf02> | I can't wait till you guys implement it because it will be heaven for guy like me |
| 01:36 | <TabAtkins> | uf02: Yeah, but that's what you'll have to do. Even if all browsers added the new features tomorrow, you'd have to wait until all older browsers were insignificant. These features don't really play nicely with backwards compat. |
| 01:36 | <TabAtkins> | SASS has a mode where it can watch for changes and automatically/transparently compile for you, you know. |
| 01:37 | <uf02> | what if they built something like jQuery for SASS |
| 01:37 | <uf02> | so it's automatic :) |
| 01:37 | <uf02> | and all you have to do is add a JS file |
| 01:38 | <uf02> | kind of what jquery is to js |
| 01:38 | <Yuhong> | Posted this to Slashdot: |
| 01:38 | <Yuhong> | http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1970938&cid=35039752 |
| 01:38 | <TabAtkins> | That introduces latency to your page - the user won't see the right stuff until the CSS and JS have both loaded, the JS has parsed and recompiled the sheet, and the new CSS the JS inserted into the page is loaded. |
| 01:39 | <uf02> | yea I figured that, was just looking for an easier way to use preprocessor out the bat |
| 01:39 | <uf02> | well.. will have to wait |
| 01:39 | <uf02> | but at least you guys are working onit |
| 01:39 | <TabAtkins> | Or learn to love Ruby. |
| 01:40 | <uf02> | right. |
| 01:42 | <uf02> | I do wonder, what's your preference.. SASS or LESS ? |
| 01:42 | <Yuhong> | Basically the history of CSS support in IE. |
| 01:42 | <TabAtkins> | I used to like LESS, solely because it was closer to CSS syntax. But LESS made a lot of bad decisions that SASS did right, and now that SASS has their SCSS syntax which is close to real CSS syntax, I think it's much better. |
| 01:43 | <TabAtkins> | That said, i've never used a preprocessor. |
| 01:43 | <uf02> | heh that's interesting. why not? |
| 01:43 | <uf02> | never used it but likes SASS more |
| 01:43 | <TabAtkins> | Never felt the need to. I do all my development in a text editor. |
| 01:44 | <uf02> | gotcha |
| 01:44 | <erlehmann> | Yuhong, i am actually preparing a panel for a german conference on the topic of if this is the right way to make a standard |
| 01:45 | <Yuhong> | It took a lot of thinking and research to for me to figure it all out. |
| 01:47 | <erlehmann> | fun fact: i know no one who is a) clever enough for a panel b) too dumb to realize that defending apples move against ogg, webm etc. makes them an acceptable target for trolling |
| 01:48 | <TabAtkins> | You already tried Gruber? |
| 01:51 | <Rik`> | to my knowledge, we haven't seen Apple moving against ogg or webm |
| 01:51 | <erlehmann> | TabAtkins, it is in germany. i tried the german pendant, tim pritlove. |
| 01:52 | <Rik`> | Apple is well known for not commenting stuff before shipping them |
| 01:52 | <Rik`> | (which also means they are not commenting on stuff they will not implement) |
| 01:53 | <gsnedders> | Rik`: I think the assumption is they would've been on stage at Google I/O last year if they were going to. |
| 01:53 | <gsnedders> | Rik`: Instead of letting themselves/Moz/Op take the spotlight |
| 01:53 | <erlehmann> | https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Tim_pritlove |
| 01:53 | <Rik`> | gsnedders: Have you ever seen Apple going to announce something with other companies? |
| 01:54 | <Rik`> | (ok, Verizon recently but there is a lot of money on the table) |
| 01:55 | <gsnedders> | Rik`: It seems unlikely they'd leave such a delay |
| 01:56 | <Rik`> | no hardware decoding available means they won't ship it |
| 01:56 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, how is jobs take on ‘“there is a patent pool being assembled” and “every video codec is patented” no move against open codecs? |
| 01:57 | <gsnedders> | Rik`: Are we sure? Does the iPhone use a DSP? |
| 01:57 | <gsnedders> | *a locked DSP |
| 01:57 | <jamesr____> | heycam: in your spec you say that the UA must add a requestAnimationFrame callback to the list if the callback is not already in the list. why exclude duplicates? |
| 01:57 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, “hardware” decoding usually happens in DSPs, special processors suited for the task. |
| 01:57 | <jamesr____> | heycam: if i do setTimeout(foo, 10); setTimeout(foo, 10); then i expect 'foo' to be invoked twice |
| 01:57 | <Rik`> | erlehmann: you're talking about a report of mail attributed to jobs |
| 01:58 | <Rik`> | there are a lot of fake reported mails |
| 01:58 | <gsnedders> | erlehmann: The DSPs used in lots of phones have embedded ROM in them which they execute, so once shipped you can't change what the DSP does. |
| 01:58 | <Rik`> | gsnedders: that's beyond my knowledge and competence |
| 01:59 | <Rik`> | gsnedders: but the spotlight you're talking about is very very very small |
| 01:59 | <heycam> | jamesr____, not sure, looking |
| 01:59 | <erlehmann> | gsnedders, oh. i thought you could upgrade the firmware ._. |
| 01:59 | <gsnedders> | Rik`: I wouldn't be surprised if it was entirely possible for them to implement hardware decoding for existing devices. |
| 01:59 | <Rik`> | maybe it is possible |
| 01:59 | <erlehmann> | even if it was, this isn't the deciding factor |
| 02:00 | <erlehmann> | and every single one of you knows it |
| 02:00 | <gsnedders> | erlehmann: On a lot of phones it's separate to the ROM the actual phone's firmware is stored in, and isn't reprogrammable |
| 02:00 | <Rik`> | but assuming that Apple is not gonna ship WebM in the future when they said nothing about it feels weird to me |
| 02:00 | <erlehmann> | gsnedders, :/ |
| 02:00 | <Rik`> | erlehmann: what is the deciding factor ? |
| 02:00 | <heycam> | jamesr____, yeah I'm not sure why that's there, can't think of a good reason. |
| 02:01 | <jamesr____> | heycam: also, why are these "methods"? is that the IDL term? |
| 02:01 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, your sceptic argument goes like: you cannot know not-X. therefore, X is possible. i will not fall for that. |
| 02:01 | <erlehmann> | also, politics. |
| 02:02 | <heycam> | jamesr____, hmm no the IDL term is "operation" |
| 02:02 | <jamesr____> | whatwg seems to define things as 'method's |
| 02:02 | <jamesr____> | i'm looking at the setTimeout() definition |
| 02:02 | <heycam> | ok |
| 02:02 | <heycam> | method is a nicer name than operation |
| 02:02 | <Rik`> | erlehmann: Microsoft said they were giving more money to MPEG LA than receiving |
| 02:02 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, does the fact that apple did not announce support for 12 feet robots with furry paws raise the possibility that they will ship said bots? |
| 02:03 | <jamesr____> | definitely |
| 02:03 | <Rik`> | I think Apple or someone else reported that it was the same for Apple |
| 02:03 | <heycam> | maybe I should change do s/operation/method/g in Web IDL |
| 02:03 | <othermaciej> | MPEG LA is definitely not a revenue source for us, it is a cost center |
| 02:03 | <Rik`> | othermaciej: do you have a neutral link for that ? |
| 02:04 | <Rik`> | so everytime I read "Apple has invested so much in H264", I'm thinking that every year it costs Apple a lot of money so they wouldn't be reluctant to use a patent free format |
| 02:04 | <othermaciej> | I don't think Apple publishes financials to that degree |
| 02:05 | <Rik`> | I'm also thinking that Apple is very fast to introduce new technologies/formats and ditch previous ones |
| 02:05 | <erlehmann> | I want a T-Shirt with “My name is MPEG LA and i hate every single one of you.” |
| 02:05 | <Rik`> | and I'm also thinking that checking if WebM is not a legal threat is not a quick task |
| 02:07 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, good that there is a company whose main business revolves around searching for stuff *hint, hint* |
| 02:07 | <erlehmann> | btw: i heard, they also have a patent search ;) |
| 02:08 | <TabAtkins> | I don't think our servers are well-designed to do legal searches. |
| 02:08 | <gsnedders> | Rik`: You'll never know if something is a legal threat or not until you ship, pretty mufch |
| 02:08 | <erlehmann> | shippers gonna ship! |
| 02:08 | <othermaciej> | checking if a complicated technology is a legal threat is not in any way fast or easy |
| 02:10 | <Rik`> | anyway, there is only two possible scenarios now |
| 02:10 | <Rik`> | either everyone moves to WebM |
| 02:10 | <erlehmann> | or only some do. |
| 02:10 | <erlehmann> | hehehe |
| 02:10 | <Rik`> | or MEPG LA is threatened enough by WebM that they make parts of H264 patent free |
| 02:11 | <erlehmann> | the word you are looking for is “royalty free” |
| 02:11 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: paul_irish made the search not scroll… |
| 02:11 | <gsnedders> | Rik`: Or MPEG LA think that IE/Safari supporting it is enough. |
| 02:11 | <Rik`> | erlehmann: you're right, sorry |
| 02:11 | <erlehmann> | n/p |
| 02:12 | <Rik`> | gsnedders: Firefox + Chrome + Opera is at least 40% of internet users in every country so that's not a plausible scenario |
| 02:13 | <erlehmann> | south korea disagrees |
| 02:14 | <jamesr____> | heycam: ok, i've got something. now to find some decent web hosting to throw it up on... |
| 02:16 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, http://blog.mozilla.com/gen/2010/02/24/no-choice-insouth-korea/ |
| 02:17 | <Rik`> | gsnedders: MPEG LA already changed the end of the free licensing fees because of the pressure Theora/WebM put on them |
| 02:18 | <Rik`> | erlehmann: yeah I know, but this is the exception, not the rule |
| 02:18 | <heycam> | jamesr____, cool. |
| 02:18 | heycam | out for a while |
| 02:18 | <erlehmann> | gsnedders, count your chickens when they are hatched. |
| 02:18 | <erlehmann> | no, i meant Rik` |
| 02:19 | <erlehmann> | sorry |
| 02:19 | gsnedders | vanishes off to bed |
| 02:19 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, status quo is: apple has the only modern browser not supporting something. conjecturing does not help. |
| 02:19 | <Rik`> | the only modern browser not supporting something ? |
| 02:20 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, royalty-free codecs in <audio> and <video>? |
| 02:20 | <Rik`> | like with IE9, you can install codecs for the media framework of the os |
| 02:21 | <Rik`> | you can insall a xiph plugin for quicktime that will play vorbis and theora stuff |
| 02:21 | <Rik`> | and I believe Perian has a WebM quicktime plugin in the making |
| 02:22 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, we had “whatever codec is installed” for years, with <object> |
| 02:22 | <Rik`> | I know, that's useless |
| 02:22 | <erlehmann> | or was it <embed>? |
| 02:23 | <Rik`> | but saying that Apple will never ship WebM only six months after it was introduced is not serious |
| 02:24 | <Rik`> | I mean Firefox is not yet supporting it |
| 02:25 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, count the evidence for that they will ship it in another six months. does it seem likely? |
| 02:25 | <Rik`> | Android is only supporting it for one or two months |
| 02:25 | <jamesr___> | heycam: http://webstuff.nfshost.com/Overview.html |
| 02:25 | <Rik`> | in another six months ? maybe in desktop safari, no way in mobile safari |
| 02:25 | <jamesr___> | basically it's what you have except for the following: |
| 02:26 | <jamesr___> | 1.) removed the requirements for updating native animations since i don't think they are implementable. user agents will not be updating native animations on the main thread, so you can't define their updates in terms of steps on the main message loop |
| 02:26 | <Rik`> | but I'd say they won't implement it on desktop safari if they can't implement it on mobile |
| 02:26 | <jamesr___> | 2.) added an element parameter to requestAnimationFrame() for visibility checks |
| 02:27 | <jamesr___> | 3.) added a setTimeout()-style handle as a return value for request..() and added a clear() to mimic setTimeout() |
| 02:27 | <jamesr___> | 4.) updated the 'invoke the callbacks' algorithm to take the visibility checks and cancellation into account |
| 02:28 | <erlehmann> | Rik`, your argument is moot. i will go to sleep. in before mootles :3 |
| 02:44 | <Hixie> | http://wetzler.me/dropbox-syncplicity/ applies to HTML too. Whence the 80% rule. |
| 06:29 | <heycam> | jamesr___, /Overview.html seems to be the makefile, but /Overview.xml worked |
| 07:15 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: Are you able to poke the whatwg server? port 22/ssh isn't responding |
| 10:25 | <matjas> | TabAtkins: +2 internets to you, kind Sir. |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | oh look |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | http://twitterfeed.com/ is what TabAtkins is using for CSS |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | I guess we should just use that for the WHATWG blog |
| 11:36 | <annevk> | the other features are not really relevant |
| 12:11 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: <ul><li><a><li></ul> only says "Error: Unclosed elements inside a list." |
| 13:07 | <matjas_> | TabAtkins: any chance of including the link to the relevant thread on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-commits/ for each item in the feed? |
| 14:04 | <phrearch> | hi |
| 17:30 | <webr3> | okay, I must be being thick - where's the startConversation method of web workers defined? |
| 17:30 | <gsnedders> | webr3: startConversation? There is no such thing… |
| 17:31 | <webr3> | that's what i thought, but the demo uses it :s and it's not defined in the worker lib either |
| 17:31 | <webr3> | see source: http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/crypto/page.html |
| 17:32 | <webr3> | it's not defined on page or in lib ( http://www.whatwg.org/demos/workers/crypto/libcrypto-v1.js ) |
| 17:32 | <webr3> | has been in the spec for ages too, but not defined, just in the code of the example,a nd the example works - totally confused me |
| 17:34 | <webr3> | see also: http://www.mail-archive.com/whatwg⊙lwo/msg12099.html from 2008 "more powerful api" |
| 17:37 | <webr3> | ahh.. the demo's screwed too - var crytoLib (missing p) - and .startConversation is undefined (as it should be i guess) spec/demo code may need an update... |
| 21:47 | <webr3> | how would one approach jailing the js environment in the browser (other than web workers)? (basically ecmascript only) |
| 22:04 | <Philip`> | webr3: Sounds like http://code.google.com/p/google-caja/ |
| 22:06 | <webr3> | cheers - and wow, I've not seen "DHTML" referenced in a v long time! |