| 00:00 | <hober> | as if that has anything to do with <article> |
| 00:00 | <Hixie> | the main content area of the page, sans menu, extras, etc, is <body> with <nav> and <aside> removed. |
| 00:00 | <othermaciej> | key, it kind of seems like you are coming in here with an attitude problem |
| 00:00 | <othermaciej> | key: is that because you are frustrated and not sure how to express your point, or just because you're the kind of guy to come into a channel and throw off attitude? |
| 00:00 | <othermaciej> | key: if it's the former, I can give you advice |
| 00:01 | <key> | shall i answer? or would you rather just keep spewing from the mouth |
| 00:01 | <othermaciej> | the best way to effect change in the HTML spec is to write up use cases |
| 00:01 | <othermaciej> | I'm guessing it's #2, in which case you should leave |
| 00:01 | <key> | obviously you're the kind of guy who just asks rhetorical questions |
| 00:01 | <key> | more of your assumption |
| 00:01 | <othermaciej> | just because it's an open standards process and an open channel, doesn't entitle you to come in here and be a jerk |
| 00:01 | <key> | straw man |
| 00:02 | <othermaciej> | anyway, if you actually want to create change and not just vent, write up your use cases |
| 00:02 | <othermaciej> | send to the mailing list |
| 00:02 | <othermaciej> | start a discussion |
| 00:02 | <othermaciej> | show data from real sites |
| 00:02 | <othermaciej> | that is what works |
| 00:03 | <key> | hober, the reason i say that is that 'content' is one of the biggest outline parts that exist |
| 00:03 | <key> | along moreso than header/footer, even |
| 00:03 | <key> | without content, you wouldn't have nav, or any of the rest |
| 00:04 | <key> | hixie, are you saying that's implied by <body>? |
| 00:04 | <hober> | but that's an entirely different issue than any problem you may have with <article> |
| 00:04 | <key> | my point is that we wouldn't need to create a new tag to fill this need, we could just clean up the definition of <article> and most likely change its name |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | we already have a tag for this |
| 00:05 | <Hixie> | it's <Body> |
| 00:06 | <key> | so the main content area shouldn't show up in the outlining algorithm? |
| 00:06 | <key> | or when you draw out a web interface outline, you don't have a special area for "content" ? |
| 00:06 | <key> | http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/html5-articles-and-sections-whats-the-difference/#comment-667884 |
| 00:06 | <key> | he raises good points i'd say. opinions? |
| 00:08 | <key> | also, http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/html5-articles-and-sections-whats-the-difference/#comment-680580 |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | the outlining algorithm already handles all this |
| 00:08 | <Hixie> | see the spec |
| 00:08 | <key> | (re spanning of logical content units across multiple pages) |
| 00:09 | <key> | also, http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/html5-articles-and-sections-whats-the-difference/#comment-688922 |
| 00:10 | <key> | what i find is, when there is some issue that many are confused of, it isn't necessarily anything more than the topic being poorly constructed |
| 00:10 | <key> | like the 7 series 'all nav in 1 button' bmw issue a few years back |
| 00:11 | <key> | have you guys taken a step back and considered if perhaps article is poorly defined and constructed as a concept? |
| 00:16 | <AryehGregor> | No. We have irreversibly sunk into a bottomless sea of self-righteous delusion, never to emerge until we have destroyed the entire web platform through our willful ignorance. |
| 00:16 | <AryehGregor> | Sorry. |
| 00:16 | <key> | can you please be serious? |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | ok, who had AryehGregor down in the pool for "who will go sarcastic first"? |
| 00:17 | <AryehGregor> | No again. Sorry. |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | hand in your bets people |
| 00:17 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, I'm pretty sure I was sarcastic at least once before that. |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | ah, must have missed it :-) |
| 00:17 | <key> | yea, and i'm the jerk |
| 00:17 | <AryehGregor> | key, seriously, this is not a big deal either way. Everyone's going to use the element however they feel like, we can't stop it. |
| 00:17 | <key> | i try to have a serious discussion and get the peanut gallery taking a shit |
| 00:17 | <AryehGregor> | If it's not named so wisely, well, it's hardly the first in that regard. |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | key: your tone has not been one that one would describe as a serious discussion, as many people have already pointed out to you |
| 00:18 | <key> | so why don't we just use tables for layout? if proper tag use doesn't matter |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | key: and people have now tuned you out because of your tone |
| 00:18 | <key> | oh my tone? does it hurt your spineless jellyfish bodies? |
| 00:18 | <AryehGregor> | That has quantifiable accessibility impact. |
| 00:18 | <key> | fucking children |
| 00:18 | <Hixie> | case in point |
| 00:18 | <key> | tough to reason with a channel full of queens |
| 00:19 | <tantek> | key, your tone is inefficient for human communications. you are hereby /ignored. |
| 00:19 | <key> | tantek, your pseudo-intellect bores me |
| 00:19 | <AryehGregor> | The annoying thing about /ignore is you still have to read the other people talking to him. |
| 00:19 | <AryehGregor> | Then you get curious about what he said. |
| 00:19 | <key> | i'll just leave |
| 00:19 | <AryehGregor> | Which defeats the point. |
| 00:19 | <AryehGregor> | At least for me. |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | irssi lets you /ignore the responses too |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | which is pretty awesome |
| 00:19 | <AryehGregor> | Only if they contain his name, I assume? |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:20 | <tantek> | AryehGregor - btw - granted - you're correct, that was more of a flame than a strawman. |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | it doesn't have NLP yet :-) |
| 00:20 | tw2113 | apologizes for key, i'm the one that mentioned this room earlier over in #html5 |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | tw2113: no worries |
| 00:21 | <tw2113> | i was at work so didn't have ability to give full attention to any friendly arguements he had |
| 00:21 | <tw2113> | and don't know quite enough to give authoritative voice :D |
| 00:22 | <tantek> | Actually, should be fairly easy for NLP to detect both such trivial name-calling and above-average use of expletives to auto-categorize a participant as potentially unproductive. |
| 00:22 | <tantek> | above-average *frequency* that is, rather than above-average sophistication |
| 00:22 | <tantek> | could be a useful IRCbot |
| 00:22 | <tw2113> | send those messages to /dev/null? |
| 00:23 | <tantek> | as a first implementation. second, connect an Eliza-style backend to attempt to educate the unproductive participant into being more productive |
| 00:23 | <tantek> | saving humans the time of doing so |
| 00:24 | <tw2113> | i don't know how much formal introductions are encouraged, but i'm michael |
| 00:24 | <key> | btw, where do you guys stand on capitalized tag names? |
| 00:24 | <key> | rather, up-cased |
| 00:24 | <key> | <HEAD> or <head>? |
| 00:25 | <key> | personally, i do <HEAD attr="value"> |
| 00:25 | <Philip`> | The spec is intentionally indifferent |
| 00:25 | <tw2113> | i think letter case has been made irrelevant |
| 00:25 | <tw2113> | anyone can correct me if wrong though |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | wow, key wasn't gone long |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | spec says you can any case |
| 00:26 | <key> | had a new thought |
| 00:26 | <key> | yea im just asking personal prefs |
| 00:26 | <key> | i know what the spec says, heh |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | <br> <Br> <bR>, <BR> all equivalent |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | I do everything lowercase. |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | Because it's easier to read. |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | And also it compresses better, if you want to be obsessive. |
| 00:26 | <key> | ya? interesting. i find my style more readable |
| 00:26 | <tw2113> | personal preference is personal preference |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | i capitalise the first letter, because my finger can't get off the shift key fast enough after typing the < |
| 00:26 | <AryehGregor> | And also because uppercase tag names put me in the mind of 1990s HTML, before XML was introduced and all the trendy people started using lowercase. |
| 00:27 | <tw2113> | :O which one holds more data weight? capital or lowercase? |
| 00:27 | <key> | ew i hate capitalized style the most :P |
| 00:27 | <AryehGregor> | I even use <!doctype html> instead of <!DOCTYPE html>. |
| 00:27 | <jcranmer> | NO YOU'RE BOTH WRONG, YOU NEED TO USE RANDOM CAPITALIZATIONS |
| 00:27 | <key> | at least be consistent! |
| 00:27 | <jcranmer> | e.g., sCRipT |
| 00:27 | <key> | kiddy |
| 00:27 | <AryehGregor> | I do that in tests. |
| 00:27 | <key> | i made my first cat shirt today |
| 00:27 | <AryehGregor> | There are some examples in the spec that do it too, I think, just to make the point. |
| 00:27 | <tw2113> | save file size! use the smallest characters possible |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | elements with odd numbers of attributes should be uppercase, and even numbers of attribute should be lowercase |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | so you can tell at a glance whether the number of attributes is odd or even |
| 00:27 | <key> | haha |
| 00:28 | <jcranmer> | oh come on, you can throw more data into that tag name |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: none of the examples in the spec go quite as far as random case in the middle of tags :-P |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | i'm not quite THAT crazy |
| 00:28 | <tantek> | that's silly. everyone knows UPPERCASE TAGS ARE FOR SHOUTING. |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | tantek: so <STRONG> but <small>? |
| 00:28 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, they should! |
| 00:29 | <tantek> | Hixie, bingo |
| 00:29 | <jcranmer> | Hixie: throw one in when you write an example on April 1 |
| 00:29 | <key> | tantek, <HTML> isn't intended for person to person communication, rather machine to machine, so the upcase convention of SHOUTING doesn't apply |
| 00:29 | <key> | it's syntactic, not semantic |
| 00:29 | key | ducks |
| 00:29 | <jcranmer> | it's quixotic |
| 00:29 | <key> | haha |
| 00:30 | <key> | now you're just being silly |
| 00:30 | jcranmer | points to the topic |
| 00:30 | <AryehGregor> | Well, if your HTML isn't meant to be read by humans, then why do you care about case? |
| 00:30 | <AryehGregor> | Figure out what's fastest to parse or compresses best or something. |
| 00:30 | <AryehGregor> | (AFAIK, XHTML went with lowercase because it compresses better in typical documents.) |
| 00:30 | <AryehGregor> | (Slightly.) |
| 00:30 | <key> | i think you guys would benefit from having my mental stimulation regularly; i think i'll hang out here |
| 00:31 | key | sits down, pulls up a recliner |
| 00:31 | <AryehGregor> | Just try not to violently insult us all more than, say, once a week. |
| 00:31 | <key> | ok, deal |
| 00:31 | <jcranmer> | and preferably not on days that I have Abstract Algebra |
| 00:31 | <jcranmer> | my head hurts enough after that class |
| 00:31 | <tw2113> | avoid days that end in "ay" |
| 00:31 | <AryehGregor> | jcranmer, oh, you're taking abstract algebra? As part of a computer science major or such? |
| 00:31 | <key> | mm, get your ambiant calculus on |
| 00:32 | <jcranmer> | AryehGregor: yes |
| 00:32 | <AryehGregor> | I wound up semi-inadvertently specializing in abstract algebra for my (math) bachelor's and master's degrees. |
| 00:33 | <AryehGregor> | Every ideal is contained within a maximal ideal!!! |
| 00:33 | <jcranmer> | if you want a detailed explanation on why all normal subgroups are kernels of some surjective homomorphism |
| 00:33 | <AryehGregor> | (proof: Zorn's lemma) |
| 00:33 | <jcranmer> | I am not your person |
| 00:33 | <key> | btw, if i have a corporate web site (doesn't publish/syndicate content), would it be best to wrap the content area with <section> then have nested sections within it? or do the <article> with nested <section> jig? |
| 00:33 | <AryehGregor> | That's trivial. |
| 00:33 | <AryehGregor> | Just take the natural map from G to G/N. |
| 00:33 | <tw2113> | for what it's worth, i think the internet has syndication coming out its ass, so article is actually quite the best term for it |
| 00:33 | <AryehGregor> | Then that's a surjective homomorphism, and N is the kernel. |
| 00:34 | <AryehGregor> | If you have any questions, ask in #math. They like people who are advanced enough to actually be asking stuff about group theory. |
| 00:34 | <key> | tw2113: i'm inclined to agree, but what about the issue of a single logical article spanning multiple pages, and hence multiple <article> instances |
| 00:34 | <AryehGregor> | (as opposed to the flood of calc and pre-calc and numerical computing and programming) |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | isn't algebra pretty abstract in its normal state? what is _abstract_ algebra? |
| 00:34 | <tw2113> | what's wrong with that? |
| 00:34 | <AryehGregor> | It's algebra where you prove stuff about abstract *types* of structures. |
| 00:35 | <Hixie> | like lambda calculus? |
| 00:35 | <AryehGregor> | Dunno any lambda calculus. |
| 00:35 | <key> | and even type taken abstract, ie abstract character |
| 00:35 | <jcranmer> | Hixie: it |
| 00:35 | <AryehGregor> | But regular algebra is where you make abstract statements about, e.g., the real numbers. |
| 00:35 | <Hixie> | or dimensional analysis? |
| 00:35 | <jcranmer> | 's where you decide that abstract vector spaces are too concrete |
| 00:35 | <key> | nod, what AryehGregor said |
| 00:35 | <AryehGregor> | In abstract algebra, you make statements about more abstract structures, like groups. |
| 00:35 | <jcranmer> | so you decide to prove things using as few requirements as possible |
| 00:36 | <AryehGregor> | The real numbers under addition are a group, so are the nonzero real numbers under multiplication, so are the invertible matrices under multiplication, so are zillions of things. |
| 00:36 | <key> | tw2113: i've decided to use article with nested sections |
| 00:36 | <jcranmer> | I would have mentioned the hard-to-understand theorem we had in class today |
| 00:36 | <jcranmer> | but I forgot what it actually stated |
| 00:36 | <tw2113> | have at it |
| 00:37 | <key> | i liked the link you sent me that defined them as: article; whole unit of related content. section; related contents. div; null semantic |
| 00:37 | <jcranmer> | something about using homomorphisms to inductively prove that abelian groups have an element of order divisible by p, where p is some prime or something |
| 00:37 | <key> | it's the content semantic breakdown i'm looking for |
| 00:37 | <tw2113> | one of those from html5doctor? |
| 00:37 | <key> | yea |
| 00:37 | <Hixie> | jcranmer: oh i understand why your head hurts |
| 00:37 | <key> | or at least, one i found via it |
| 00:38 | <tw2113> | good resource there |
| 00:38 | <key> | word |
| 00:38 | <AryehGregor> | A group is any set G together with a binary operation * on the set such that 1) for any x, y, z, (x * y) * z = x * (y * z); 2) there is some e so that for all x, x*e = e*x = x; 3) for any x, there is a y so that x*y = y*x = e. |
| 00:38 | <AryehGregor> | Then you prove stuff about them. |
| 00:38 | <AryehGregor> | jcranmer, the order of any nontrivial group element is divisible by p for some prime p. |
| 00:38 | <jcranmer> | ah, apparently this is Cauchy's Theorem |
| 00:38 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, Cauchy's theorem. |
| 00:38 | <AryehGregor> | That's not just for abelian groups, though. |
| 00:39 | <jcranmer> | well, we only proved it for finite abelian groups |
| 00:39 | <AryehGregor> | It's really a weak corollary of Sylow's theorems. I can't remember how to prove it offhand. |
| 00:39 | <AryehGregor> | It's true for all finite groups. |
| 00:39 | <jcranmer> | write something for 1/10 of the page in your notebook, that's how you prove it |
| 00:39 | <AryehGregor> | That's only a few lines. |
| 00:39 | <key> | tw2113: let's say i have an article with 5 pages. i wrap the first page of article in the template's <article>. now let's say i want to provide a link to the 4 other pages. would i put a <nav> within the <article>, and expect user agents to understand that as an article menu? |
| 00:39 | <jcranmer> | actually, it's a lot |
| 00:40 | <jcranmer> | I use graph paper for notes |
| 00:40 | <AryehGregor> | One of Sylow's theorems states that if G has order n, and p^m divides n, and p^(m + 1) does not divide n, then G has a subgroup of order p^m. |
| 00:40 | <jcranmer> | and I can squeeze three lines of text per square |
| 00:40 | <AryehGregor> | Then all elements of that subgroup have orders that are powers of p, by Lagrange's theorem. |
| 00:40 | <AryehGregor> | So just raise one to a suitable power and you get an element of order p. |
| 00:40 | <jcranmer> | hey, Lagrange's theorem! |
| 00:40 | <AryehGregor> | There's surely a much more elementary proof of Cauchy's theorem, though. |
| 00:40 | <jcranmer> | a name I recognize |
| 00:41 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah, that's one of the most basic theorems. |
| 00:41 | <AryehGregor> | Where by "basic" I mean "important" or "fundamental". |
| 00:41 | <jcranmer> | the size of a subgroup is a divisor of the size of a group |
| 00:41 | <AryehGregor> | Yep. |
| 00:41 | <AryehGregor> | Thus also the order of an element is a divisor of the size of the group, since any element generates a cyclic subgroup of its own order. |
| 00:41 | <tw2113> | someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i think if the nav is within the parent article tag, then ideally, the browser would associate the nav with that article |
| 00:42 | <AryehGregor> | You can stack up lots of theorems that let you restrict what finite groups can look like. Once you get to Sylow's theorems, you can do lots of precise classification. |
| 00:42 | <AryehGregor> | Like "there's exactly one nonabelian group of order 21". |
| 00:42 | <AryehGregor> | (finite abelian groups are classified much more easily, using the fundamental theorem of finite abelian groups; they're all direct products of cyclic groups) |
| 00:42 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway, have fun. |
| 00:43 | <TabAtkins> | tw2113: Yeah, you can associate it with the nearest ancestor article. |
| 00:43 | <AryehGregor> | I once tried to make a math joke in a programming channel and no one got it. :( |
| 00:43 | TabAtkins | is always somewhat ashamed to admit that he's bad at higher math. |
| 00:43 | jcranmer | recalls that he was going to look up what the topic of Wednesday's class would be to prevent a brain fart at the beginning of class |
| 00:43 | <tw2113> | there ya go key |
| 00:43 | <TabAtkins> | Though to be fair, the math I do know still puts me in like 95th percentile at least. |
| 00:43 | <key> | ok nice |
| 00:44 | <AryehGregor> | (It was a pun on someone misspelling "discreet" as "discrete". I contrasted it to the trivial topology, but apparently no one knew basic topology.) |
| 00:44 | <AryehGregor> | (For future reference, the discrete topology is the finest possible topology, while the indiscrete or trivial topology is the coarsest.) |
| 00:44 | <key> | tw2113, TabAtkins, so this is how nested nav's are rational?; that they associate to nearest sectioning ancestor in their tree? |
| 00:44 | <jcranmer> | you see |
| 00:44 | <AryehGregor> | (Although I don't really know much topology, sadly.) |
| 00:44 | <tw2113> | from what i gather, it's like that for most of them |
| 00:44 | <jcranmer> | topology is considered magic to the rest of us |
| 00:45 | <AryehGregor> | Topology is neat. |
| 00:45 | <TabAtkins> | Neat but magic. |
| 00:45 | <AryehGregor> | At least at a basic level, it seems much slicker to me than group theory. |
| 00:45 | <jcranmer> | I barely held my way through differential equations |
| 00:45 | <AryehGregor> | Algebra generally involves more computation than topology, and less visual thinking. |
| 00:45 | <jcranmer> | I can get a hold of abstract algebra if I actually do some stuff with it |
| 00:45 | <AryehGregor> | Differential equations is pretty much just memorizing types of equations and practicing so you can solve them fast, isn't it? |
| 00:46 | <AryehGregor> | I took a differential equations course for the heck of it. Pretty boring. |
| 00:46 | <jcranmer> | I don't know how I got an A in that class |
| 00:46 | <AryehGregor> | You can't really understand any math unless you do stuff with it. |
| 00:46 | <jcranmer> | I somehow managed to be able to do it without understanding what I'm doing it |
| 00:46 | <key> | tw2113: as witnessed by section being nestable? |
| 00:46 | <key> | i mean, in regards to your mention of recursiveness |
| 00:46 | <jcranmer> | I can spout out the names of stuff, and I have a vague idea of how it works |
| 00:46 | <AryehGregor> | jcranmer, you realize that all basic undergrad math courses teach you how to do stuff without understanding it? |
| 00:47 | AryehGregor | doesn't remember how to solve anything but linear ordinary differential equations with constant coefficients |
| 00:47 | <jcranmer> | no, no, calculus you understand |
| 00:47 | <key> | AryehGregor: yea isn't that a pity? |
| 00:47 | <key> | makes a bunch of calculators, not thinkers |
| 00:47 | AryehGregor | could maybe do polynomial coefficients -- that's Taylor series, right? |
| 00:47 | <jcranmer> | well, I was taught calculus at a more theoretical level |
| 00:47 | <AryehGregor> | You can sort of understand calculus, but not really, unless you do it all with proofs. |
| 00:47 | <jcranmer> | we did proofs |
| 00:47 | <tw2113> | yes key |
| 00:47 | <AryehGregor> | And actually are required to know all the proofs. |
| 00:47 | <jcranmer> | oh god, we did proofs |
| 00:47 | <jcranmer> | we stopped short of doing real analysis |
| 00:48 | <jcranmer> | but I do recall proving taylor's theorem |
| 00:48 | <AryehGregor> | The key question is: were you required to prove things that weren't discussed in class? I.e., did you have exercises of the form "prove this thing you've never seen before"? |
| 00:48 | <jcranmer> | yep |
| 00:48 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, then it sounds like a serious course. |
| 00:49 | <jcranmer> | that was also very prevalent in abstract vector spaces |
| 00:49 | <AryehGregor> | In my college, only math majors took courses like that, as far as I could tell. |
| 00:49 | <AryehGregor> | Mostly only pure math majors. |
| 00:49 | <key> | tw2113: ok so let's say you have your nav bar in your header. so you put <nav> in <header>. does this associate the menu to the header vs the whole document/site? |
| 00:49 | <jcranmer> | I even tripped up in one theorem because I assumed only finite-dimensional vector spaces |
| 00:49 | <AryehGregor> | Infinite-dimensional vector spaces aren't nearly as well-behaved. |
| 00:49 | <jcranmer> | well, it could be countably infinite-dimensional and still work |
| 00:50 | <AryehGregor> | Hah. |
| 00:50 | <jcranmer> | the proof broke down for uncountably infinite |
| 00:50 | <AryehGregor> | What result were you using that held for only countable dimensions? |
| 00:50 | <jcranmer> | I forget |
| 00:50 | <tw2113> | depends, which header are we talking about? |
| 00:50 | <jcranmer> | let me check my noteboke |
| 00:50 | <key> | tw2113: <header> tag |
| 00:50 | <tw2113> | for the site? for the article? |
| 00:50 | <key> | site |
| 00:50 | AryehGregor | can't think of any relevant ones offhand, that couldn't be patched up with some axiom of choice |
| 00:51 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe you used induction or recursion? |
| 00:51 | <key> | (all i do on my site header is show the current date+time) |
| 00:51 | <tw2113> | then the nav within that one, would be associated with the header, which i assume would be assocaited with the site |
| 00:51 | <AryehGregor> | That's my bet. |
| 00:51 | <tw2113> | being the top level header |
| 00:51 | <AryehGregor> | Like Graham-Schmidt. |
| 00:51 | <AryehGregor> | Only works in countable dimensions. |
| 00:51 | <key> | ok so you don't think a nav in a root level header would be 'buried' from proper prominence ? |
| 00:51 | <key> | considering screen readers, etc |
| 00:52 | <tw2113> | and if you use WAI-ARIA stuff, you can give that nav a role and it'd be known as the primary nav to assisted browsing |
| 00:52 | <AryehGregor> | If you try to extend it, you have to subtract off infinitely many pieces from a vector, which is impossible. |
| 00:52 | <jcranmer> | ah, I did an explicit enumeration of the elements in the basis |
| 00:52 | <key> | tw2113: sure, but i'm starting with logical organization first |
| 00:52 | <AryehGregor> | And then did what with it? |
| 00:52 | <AryehGregor> | You can get away with that stuff sometimes in uncountable dimensions, as long as you're using the axiom of choice. |
| 00:52 | <tw2113> | no i don't think it'd end up buried |
| 00:52 | <AryehGregor> | (If you aren't, then you can't assume a basis to begin with in uncountable dimensions, so no point in going there.) |
| 00:53 | <key> | thanks tw2113 |
| 00:53 | <AryehGregor> | (Since the axiom of choice is equivalent to "All vector spaces have a basis.") |
| 00:53 | <jcranmer> | The question was to prove that |
| 00:53 | <AryehGregor> | To prove what? That the axiom of choice is equivalent to all vector spaces have a basis? |
| 00:53 | <jcranmer> | If S is a subset of a vector space V, and T is a subspace of V, then prove that L(S) is a subset of T. |
| 00:54 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, okay. |
| 00:54 | <AryehGregor> | L being what? |
| 00:54 | <jcranmer> | the set of linear combinations of S |
| 00:54 | <jcranmer> | well, linear combinations of elements of S |
| 00:55 | <AryehGregor> | Then it's clearly wrong. Let S be V, for instance, and T be a proper subspace. |
| 00:55 | <AryehGregor> | Maybe you meant S is a subset of T, and prove that L(S) is a subspace of T? |
| 00:55 | <jcranmer> | sorry, S is a subset of T |
| 00:55 | <karlcow> | I was trying to find out today if we there was a discussion about a "type" attribute for "input" element which would pop a map to select a location and sends back latitude/longitude |
| 00:56 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway, it follows directly from the definition of a subspace, which is basically "contains zero and is closed under linear combinations". Unless you define subspaces differently. |
| 00:56 | <AryehGregor> | Definitely not a basis-dependent question, not a good idea to bring those into it. |
| 00:57 | <AryehGregor> | karlcow, it's been discussed, but the consensus so far has been that it's best not to add new features like that barring strong demand, until we have good implementations of the existing ones. |
| 00:57 | <jcranmer> | I had assumed that S was finite |
| 00:57 | <AryehGregor> | (plural) |
| 00:57 | <jcranmer> | well, it probably would have worked if S was countably infinite |
| 00:57 | <TabAtkins> | karlcow: In other words, let the implementations catch up first. |
| 00:57 | <karlcow> | ok |
| 00:58 | <TabAtkins> | karlcow: That said, I know we have some internal interest in doing type=location. |
| 00:58 | <TabAtkins> | So when we do add it, Webkit should be happy about it. |
| 00:58 | <karlcow> | TabAtkins: do you remember links do discussions? |
| 00:58 | karlcow | has to step out suddenly |
| 00:58 | <TabAtkins> | karlcow: No, I just know water-cooler talk. |
| 00:58 | <TabAtkins> | I also have to leave now, so I can give the car to my wife for the night. |
| 00:59 | <AryehGregor> | And I'm off the computer for the night. |
| 00:59 | <AryehGregor> | jcranmer, have fun with your abstract algebra! |
| 01:01 | <jcranmer> | will do |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | anyone got IE9 handy? |
| 01:17 | <boogyman> | yup |
| 01:17 | <tw2113> | i don't even have windows handy :D |
| 01:19 | <key> | http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/process.py is failing, does anyone know of another outliner? |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | boogyman: can you install the ahem font (http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/Fonts/Ahem/) and then go to http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/ and click "download" and tell me what the picture looks like? |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | boogyman: assuming it even works in IE9 |
| 01:23 | <boogyman> | on it like white on rice |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | did it download a script that has a try { } block? |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | and lots of fillRects? |
| 01:24 | <Hixie> | and a font line that uses Ahem? |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | oh i misread what you said |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | i thought you said "it looks like white on rice" :-) |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | which i assumed meant it showed nothing :-) |
| 01:29 | <boogyman> | i don't think it's working properly |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | that was my worry |
| 01:30 | <Hixie> | oh well, thanks anyway |
| 01:31 | <boogyman> | p://i52.tinypic.com/e6vzpf.jpg |
| 01:32 | <boogyman> | http://i52.tinypic.com/e6vzpf.jpg even |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | that's after clicking "download"? |
| 01:32 | <boogyman> | yes |
| 01:32 | <Hixie> | hm, hold on one sec |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | paste the text at http://junkyard.damowmow.com/448 into the textarea instead |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | use http://junkyard.damowmow.com/449 |
| 01:33 | <Hixie> | it has the right encoding set |
| 01:34 | <boogyman> | now i see xep with some coloured lines |
| 01:35 | <Hixie> | this is after installed the Ahem font? |
| 01:36 | <boogyman> | yes |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | wonder what's going on |
| 01:37 | <Hixie> | boogyman: what does http://junkyard.damowmow.com/450 look like in IE9? |
| 01:37 | <boogyman> | give me a second, i'll install it directly in my root Fonts folder, I had a symlink to another location |
| 01:37 | <Hixie> | ah ok |
| 01:39 | <boogyman> | 450 has an X then a black square |
| 01:39 | <Hixie> | ok excellent |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | did the canvas thing change? |
| 01:40 | <boogyman> | http://i56.tinypic.com/2d7vl02.jpg |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | fantastic, thanks |
| 01:40 | <boogyman> | stupid symlink |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | so the one time i was hoping microsoft might have not followed the spec, they did follow it :-) |
| 01:41 | <Hixie> | ah well, can't complain i guess |
| 01:41 | <boogyman> | haha |
| 01:42 | <key> | should i use <MENU> within <NAV> ? |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | you can |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | if <menu> is what you actually need |
| 01:43 | <Hixie> | see the spec |
| 01:43 | <key> | boogyman: what is that web interface? |
| 01:44 | <boogyman> | I'm running the crap that is M$ Vista |
| 01:45 | <key> | no i mean, looks like a function declaration in a web page, with a text area for the code of it |
| 01:45 | <key> | like you can code a function through a web interface or osmething |
| 01:45 | <boogyman> | ah that, Ian would be able to give you that answer |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | key: it's http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/canvas/ |
| 01:46 | <key> | oh cool man, nice tool |
| 01:46 | <key> | btw, i love switzerland; especially lausanne |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | i love switzerland too, so pretty |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | but i prefer california, as a place to live :-) |
| 01:49 | <key> | which part? |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | bay area |
| 01:52 | <key> | ah, yea. i lived in palo alto in the .com days, had a blast |
| 01:52 | <key> | are you back in .ch? |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | nope, bay area |
| 01:53 | <key> | ah |
| 01:54 | <boogyman> | Ian, what do you mean lived .com :) it's just the beginning of the .com days |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | that was mr key :-) |
| 02:05 | key | bows |
| 02:07 | <key> | http://honolulu.craigslist.org/mau/cto/2198949378.html |
| 02:07 | <key> | might snag that |
| 02:07 | <key> | anyone else into vintage surf rides? |
| 02:17 | <key> | http://www.pastie.org/private/vjpeztiw7fkzjzsfoxpua <- any critiques of my outline? |
| 08:57 | <annevk> | <span title="dom-FormData-form">Constructor(<span>HTMLFormElement</span> <var>form</var>)</span> |
| 08:57 | <annevk> | is the proper way to write it down right? |
| 09:00 | Dashiva | wonders how many of the fields in the IANA registration are long obsolete |
| 09:02 | <key> | what's the preferred way to make your content be constrained to 960 px wide and centered in <body>? |
| 09:02 | <annevk> | body { max-width:960px; margin:0 auto } ? |
| 09:02 | <key> | i was thinking something like <BODY><ARTICLE> and putting the styling on article |
| 09:02 | <annevk> | whatever suits you then |
| 09:03 | <key> | well i like your idea |
| 09:03 | <key> | i just didn't know we could do that |
| 09:06 | <annevk> | aah damnit |
| 09:06 | <annevk> | there's no hook in HTML5 for "constructing the form data set" |
| 09:11 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12005 |
| 09:16 | <key> | would you guys use <article> to wrap your web page? (let's say if you wanted to fix its width and center it) |
| 09:16 | <althie> | I think div could be better for wrapper? |
| 09:17 | <Ms2ger> | That would be a div, indeed |
| 09:17 | <key> | oh, hm |
| 09:18 | <key> | nice. something like <DIV id="document"> or? |
| 09:19 | <althie> | key: yeah, same way you use article |
| 09:20 | <key> | ok awesome |
| 09:20 | <key> | thanks |
| 09:20 | <key> | does div mean division? |
| 09:21 | <zcorpan> | The div element has no special meaning at all. It represents its children. It can be used with the class, lang, and title attributes to mark up semantics common to a group of consecutive elements. |
| 09:22 | <key> | i thought it meant division, and was the most generic container tag there is |
| 09:22 | <zcorpan> | the above is the spec's definition :) |
| 09:23 | <key> | i like divisino |
| 09:23 | <key> | divisino |
| 09:23 | <key> | division |
| 09:23 | <key> | would it be better to use class="document" or id="document" ? |
| 09:23 | <key> | s/better/precise |
| 09:23 | <Peter`> | It'd be a container, not a document |
| 09:23 | <zcorpan> | why do you need it at all? |
| 09:23 | <key> | to fix the width of my web page, and center it |
| 09:24 | <zcorpan> | you already have two wrapper elements (html and body) |
| 09:24 | <key> | is it supported to fix the width of body? isn't that something controlled by browser window width? |
| 09:24 | <zcorpan> | it's supported since ie6 |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | if you care about ie5, you need a div |
| 09:25 | <key> | is it possible to fix the width of body, yet still have the body bgcolor affect the entirety of the browser window? |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | yes |
| 09:25 | <key> | ok nice. so what would the css look like to do something like this? |
| 09:51 | jgraham | wonders if the scrollback is worth reading |
| 09:51 | jgraham | wasn't convinced from skimming it |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | no |
| 09:55 | <jgraham> | annevk: I think it is quite OK to have those tests in seperate files fwiw |
| 09:56 | <jgraham> | From my sample of one, I expect that they are not very well constructed tests |
| 09:56 | <jgraham> | , however |
| 09:57 | <annevk> | Microsoft dumps all their poor quality tests again |
| 09:58 | <annevk> | at some point I should write about that, so there's at least some perspective about them on the web |
| 10:10 | jgraham | wonders what normatively specifies the toString of a DOM object |
| 10:10 | <jgraham> | Does WebIDL cover that |
| 10:10 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 10:10 | <annevk> | think so |
| 10:16 | <Ms2ger> | AryehGregor, why are you reminding me of Sylow? :( |
| 10:18 | zcorpan | agrees with hsivonen about script src/readyState |
| 10:21 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: maybe worth pointing out on the list if you dress it up more than "+1" |
| 10:29 | <zcorpan> | done |
| 10:43 | <key> | ok so if i wrap my web page document in a <div id="document">, i'll then modify #document to fix the width of the web page content and center it in body. sound proper? |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | fwiw, Michael Kay commented on the HTML is the new HTML5 post |
| 10:44 | <key> | ? |
| 10:48 | <key> | im having some trouble figuring out how to structure my web page |
| 10:49 | <key> | the html |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | key, #html5 is probably a better place |
| 10:52 | <key> | it's more conceptual than those guys can probably handle |
| 10:52 | <key> | i need the spec authors' ear |
| 10:52 | <annevk> | no you don't |
| 10:55 | <key> | i have a main menu at the top of my page, then a section which has a section menu + the content. so would i do nav id=main-menu, then section id="section", then nav, then article? |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | events... |
| 11:18 | <annevk> | registration / dispatch / event flow for nodes / canceling... |
| 11:21 | <key> | http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua |
| 11:21 | <key> | how would you guys html that up? |
| 12:50 | <annevk> | trying to define events anew is tough |
| 12:50 | <annevk> | meh |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | I forgot how much a pain synthetic events were |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | create / initialize / dispatch |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | teehee |
| 13:02 | <jgraham> | Schadenfreude? |
| 13:02 | <jgraham> | Not the best quality in a spec editor |
| 13:03 | <jgraham> | Although rather a common one if existing specs are any guide |
| 13:05 | <annevk> | you missed </sarcarsm> somewhere |
| 13:05 | <annevk> | sarcasm even |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | I want to add the event model to Web DOM Core |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | I guess I should just start writing and start over a couple of times |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | just like with XMLHttpRequest |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | I have the basic model sorted out, but there's a lot of variables |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | (and then hope my description is better than DOM Events, otherwise there's no gain here) |
| 13:12 | <Dashiva> | </sadcarsm> |
| 13:22 | <karlcow> | if you can't write it, draw it |
| 13:23 | <jgraham> | Or fingerpaint. |
| 13:23 | <jgraham> | That should be fun |
| 13:24 | <jgraham> | Get all specs people together with those big squeezy tubes of poster paint |
| 13:24 | <jgraham> | And give everyone a red plastic apron |
| 13:26 | <Ms2ger> | And paint the bikeshed |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | events are so complex... |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | once you reach dispatch |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | there's a whole path |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | and for each object in the path |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | there's listeners |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | which you need to filter and keep ordened |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | and then execute synchronously |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | and depending on what that execution does |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | you may need to stop |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | or continue just for this object |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | or continue in general but not follow the link |
| 13:28 | <Ms2ger> | Hmm, does onfoo come before or after addEventListener? |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | it depends on when you set it |
| 13:28 | <gsnedders> | Does the order events are added have meaning normally? |
| 13:29 | <jgraham> | Yes |
| 13:29 | <jgraham> | Depending what you mean "normally" |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | listeners for an event have an order |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | and it's important |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | otherwise stopImmediatePropogation() would not make sense |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | not that I ever used that and not that this is not highly over engineered, but you know, it is important |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | what happens when events are dispatched in subtrees? |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | hey MikeSmith |
| 13:45 | <MikeSmith> | hola |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | e.g. if you have a DocumentFragment with an <a> element in it and you register a capture listener on DocumentFragment for 'click' and then invoke a.click() |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | I suppose that might potentially do weird things anyway given that the <a> is not in a document |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | :/ |
| 13:50 | <Ms2ger> | And I guess people rely on whatever happens now |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | interesting |
| 13:52 | <annevk> | in Opera that works |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | in Firefox/Chrome <a> has no method click()?! |
| 13:53 | <Ms2ger> | Wut |
| 13:53 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/830 |
| 13:55 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cscript%3E%0A%20w%28%22click%22%20in%20document.createElement%28%22a%22%29%29%0A%20%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 13:56 | <annevk> | no idea what is going on here |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | if I change it to a synthetic events it seems events work in any kind of tree though |
| 13:59 | <annevk> | s/synthetic events/synthetic event |
| 14:00 | <Ms2ger> | That's only on button and input |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | click()? |
| 14:02 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: do you happen to have demo cases that trigger the code path that makes Jing report what would have been allowed based on the schema? |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | oh, I wonder why |
| 14:02 | <annevk> | it works in Opera |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: some in http://dev.w3.org/html5/tests/validation/full/invalid/missing-attributes/ |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | if that's what you mean |
| 14:04 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, you sound unhappy to be reminded of Sylow. That's sad. :( |
| 14:04 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: that's a spec extract, though |
| 14:05 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: what happened to adopting George Bina's Jing patch for generating messages from the schema? |
| 14:05 | hsivonen | has terrible memory |
| 14:06 | <Ms2ger> | AryehGregor, the theorems are fine, the proof isn't ;) |
| 14:07 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ooh. now I see it. doh. |
| 14:07 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: I reduced George's patch to only reporting the element and attribute names |
| 14:07 | <AryehGregor> | Heck if I remember the proof. |
| 14:07 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: George's original dumped a string representation of the content model |
| 14:07 | <AryehGregor> | I've seen it two or three times, but I don't remember it at all. |
| 14:07 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=583514 |
| 14:08 | <AryehGregor> | IIRC it's pretty tedious, the sort of proof you want to skim for form's sake instead of really understanding and remembering. |
| 14:08 | <Ms2ger> | My prof disagreed |
| 14:08 | <AryehGregor> | Heh. |
| 14:08 | <AryehGregor> | Worst proof I remember seeing in a textbook was the Lindemann-Weierstrass Theorem. |
| 14:09 | <AryehGregor> | It was several pages of completely ad hoc arguments involving a mix of Galois theory and complex analysis. |
| 14:09 | <AryehGregor> | At the time I didn't know any complex analysis, so I didn't even try. |
| 14:09 | <AryehGregor> | The result is very neat, though. |
| 14:30 | <annevk> | what if you remove an element from the DOM that still has event listeners attached to it while you just dispatched an event and that element was in its path? |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | I guess I need to test that script readyState stuff before commenting on it further |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | I remember there being some compat issues btw with IE script loading but it's been too long :/ |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | current DOM event spec seems to suggest stuff is still dispatched |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | sounds like making garbage collection a pain... |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | the current DOM Events draft from shepazu also does not seem to take into account registering and unregistering of event handlers while other event handlers on the same object are being executed |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | I am pretty sure that ought to "just work" |
| 14:39 | <annevk> | which means the "event node path" is some kind of static list whereas everything else is pretty much live |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | so basically |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | when an event is dispatched on a node |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | you calculate its "event node path" and store it |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | then you start walking that, set currentTarget and target appropriately, and process the event listeners for each object in the "event node path" sequentially, taking modifications into account as they happen |
| 14:55 | <annevk> | all the while looking at the event object each step of the way to see if propagation has stopped, propagation has stopped immediately, or the event has been canceled |
| 14:56 | <annevk> | hmm, still not past this? http://html5doctor.com/html5-living-standard/ |
| 15:03 | <annevk> | a lot of the complexity is basically dispatching on nodes |
| 15:05 | <hsivonen> | does a realistic spec for progress events exist? |
| 15:05 | <Ms2ger> | Anne has one |
| 15:06 | <Ms2ger> | http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/progress/ |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: thanks |
| 15:07 | <annevk> | mind you, Gecko has extensions and nobody has documented them so far or told me whether they need to be |
| 15:08 | <hsivonen> | :-( |
| 15:16 | <Ms2ger> | They're in the DOM LS spec |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | DOM LS is obsolete |
| 15:21 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, I might just check in some notes on Events as a comment |
| 15:21 | <Ms2ger> | Sure |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | if listeners are live you can create infinite loops |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | fun |
| 15:25 | <Ms2ger> | Infinite loops aren't hard, you can do them with loops |
| 15:25 | <hsivonen> | sigh. the progress events for scripts in IE are useless: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/script-readystate.html |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | there's no event when readyState transitions to "loaded" |
| 15:26 | <hsivonen> | there's only an event for "complete" after the script has run |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | I do think this rewrite will make events easier to understand |
| 15:29 | <annevk> | teehee |
| 15:32 | <jgraham> | Hmm. How does one select text nodes in XPath? e.g. if I want the text node siblings of a given node? |
| 15:32 | <jgraham> | (XPath 1.0) |
| 15:34 | <beowulf> | does postmessage allow you to talk directly from one iframe to another x-domain without the parent window listening? |
| 15:34 | <annevk> | ::preceding-sibling()::text() or some such? |
| 15:34 | annevk | forgot the syntax |
| 15:35 | <annevk> | preceding-sibling::text() it seems |
| 15:38 | <jgraham> | Ah, my mistake was assuming that * was short for node() |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | should just rtfs :p |
| 15:39 | <jgraham> | Well I was :p |
| 15:40 | <jgraham> | But I hadn't internalised the concept of principle node type |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | lies |
| 15:40 | <jgraham> | *principal |
| 15:41 | <hsivonen> | me wonders how often security principles and security principals get confused |
| 15:42 | <hsivonen> | ouch. IE seems to execute external scripts synchronously if the script has already finished fetching |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 15:56 | <annevk> | nothing in both HTML and DOM Events suggests that "activation behavior" cancels the event once the first element has been activated as far as I can tell... |
| 15:56 | <annevk> | I guess I can look at that later |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | smaug____, the default action of an event, that happens when the event is through its entire propagation path? |
| 16:00 | smaug____ | is in a meeting |
| 16:06 | <annevk> | this is pretty much though what sucks about the current spec |
| 16:07 | <annevk> | it's very hard to tell how things happen |
| 16:07 | <karlcow> | http://www.mobl-lang.org/ |
| 16:24 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 16:24 | <annevk> | I guess default action is about object / event type / event trusted combination |
| 16:24 | <annevk> | not event target or such things |
| 16:25 | <annevk> | though default actions are probably only triggered in the target/bubble phase |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | so per |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%20onchange%3D%22event.preventDefault()%3Bw(event)%22%3E%3Cinput%20type%3Dradio%3E |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | you cannot prevent the default action in the bubbling phase |
| 16:42 | <annevk> | actually, when I move that onchange to the <input> it does not work either |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | ah, change is not cancelable |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | click is |
| 16:43 | <annevk> | until the very last moment |
| 16:45 | <annevk> | okay, so while the default action can happen earlier it can be undone until the very end |
| 16:57 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/web-dom-core/changeset/6c7a0c465d83 |
| 16:57 | <Ms2ger> | Nice |
| 16:58 | <annevk> | I think I tackled the difficult part |
| 16:59 | <annevk> | I guess tomorrow I should draft all the concept-blahdieblahs |
| 17:05 | <annevk> | feel free to hack on it btw |
| 17:05 | <annevk> | might be online later tonight if I get tired |
| 17:33 | <TabAtkins> | jgraham: Some Chrome engineers want to submit bidi tests to the html5 test suite. What's the best way to go about this? |
| 17:34 | <Ms2ger> | TabAtkins, push to Google's submission folder in hg and send email to the list |
| 17:34 | <Ms2ger> | (You need to be a WG member) |
| 17:37 | <jgraham> | What Ms2ger said |
| 17:37 | <Ms2ger> | Also, make markp fix his tests |
| 17:37 | <TabAtkins> | Okay. The hg repo is just part of the W3C repo, right? |
| 17:37 | <jgraham> | dvcs.w3.org |
| 17:38 | <jgraham> | /html |
| 17:39 | <TabAtkins> | Is there a format guide? |
| 17:40 | <jgraham> | For what, the tests? |
| 17:40 | <jgraham> | Maybe on the wiki somewhere |
| 17:41 | <jgraham> | Basically the theory is either javascript tests using testharness.js (controversial), self-describing reftests (controversial) or manual tests (unwelcome) |
| 17:41 | <jgraham> | In tests/resources/testharness.js you will find documentation for that harness |
| 17:42 | <jgraham> | and apisample.html should give some idea of how to use it |
| 17:42 | <TabAtkins> | Yay. |
| 17:42 | <Ms2ger> | s/controversial/IE team doesn't like/, s/unwelcome/IE team likes/ |
| 17:43 | <jgraham> | Well the first controversial is more like "Mozilla team doesn't like" |
| 17:44 | <Ms2ger> | Well, they are rather verbose |
| 17:55 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/Testing is the wiki page btw |
| 17:57 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, thank you. |
| 17:57 | <jgraham> | It doesn't actually tell you anything useful about how to write a test |
| 18:01 | <jgraham> | Or rather about the types of test that are allowed |
| 18:02 | <TabAtkins> | I just told them to either use the harness (and pointed them to the links you gave me) or make reftests (and pointed them to CSS's guides on how to make those). |
| 18:03 | <jgraham> | TabAtkins: Sounds perfect |
| 18:04 | <jgraham> | (CSS requires self-describing reftests, right?) |
| 18:04 | <TabAtkins> | It does now. |
| 19:16 | <Sirisian|Work> | Are there implementors here that write prototypes for firefox or chrome? |
| 19:17 | <paul_irish> | i'm not sure what you're asking, but i'm fairly sure the short answer is yes. |
| 19:17 | <Sirisian|Work> | http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557#c4 |
| 19:17 | <Sirisian|Work> | Maybe someone here that does that could prototype that in one of the browsers. Would be nice. |
| 19:21 | <Sirisian|Work> | I made a post to the public-webapps mailing list also since Doug said it would gain more interest that way. Curious if more people are interested nowadays. Seemed like only one or two people cared a year ago for mouse capture. |
| 19:21 | <TabAtkins> | Well, mouse capture is obviously a *requirement* for serious gaming on the web. You simple can't do mouselook without it. |
| 19:25 | <erlehmann> | one day, i will make a shock site using all the new APIs :3 |
| 19:40 | <Sirisian|Work> | TabAtkins, tell me about it. I made that bug report a year ago when I was working on WebGL tests thinking it would magically get added. :P |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yt? |
| 20:50 | <webr3> | hsivonen, just remembered, good mail re rdfa in html being subject to second guessing under html wg, fair and valid point - will be interested to see follow up responses (speaking for myself of course) |
| 21:09 | <Hixie> | is XSLTProcessor defined anywhere? |
| 21:09 | <Ms2ger> | Doubt it |
| 21:11 | <webr3> | Hixie, possibly in some form in http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt20/ (I'd guess) |
| 21:11 | <Hixie> | i don't see any dom stuff at all in there |
| 21:12 | <othermaciej> | Mozilla has docs |
| 21:12 | <othermaciej> | from the lack of citation of a standard, I'd assume there is none |
| 21:13 | <webr3> | likewise, would be surprised if there was dom stuff tbh |
| 21:14 | <webr3> | are theer any specs or work done related to different interface devices, like barcode scanners etc? |
| 21:14 | <Ms2ger> | <device> |
| 21:14 | <TabAtkins> | Barcode scanners are just keyboard devices. |
| 21:15 | <TabAtkins> | In general, though, yeah, <device>. I've been poking around, looking for someone to help spec using <device> with HID devices. |
| 21:15 | <TabAtkins> | So that we can, for example, get access to game controllers. |
| 21:15 | <webr3> | lol I hadn't even noticed the <device> element - better read up |
| 21:16 | <TabAtkins> | Don't read too much into what the spec says. |
| 21:16 | <Hixie> | game controllers should just be event handlers |
| 21:16 | <othermaciej> | the implied permissions model of <device> doesn't make sense for game controllers |
| 21:17 | <othermaciej> | game controllers seem more like the keyboard, mouse, accelerometer or compass |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | i think i'm convinced by the arguments by othermaciej, roc, and jamesr_, that we should just do things like ff4's geolocation rather than have an element for selecting a device |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | though clickjacking has to be resolved first |
| 21:17 | <TabAtkins> | What do you mean, like just exposing an API for it directly, rather than through an element? |
| 21:17 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 21:18 | <TabAtkins> | I agree with that. |
| 21:18 | <jamesr_> | i think we should start with some actual concrete use cases |
| 21:18 | <jamesr_> | the right API for game controllers is probably not the same as the API for a webcam |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | concrete cases are easy |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | (for webcam) |
| 21:18 | <TabAtkins> | othermaciej: So, I'm sympathetic to your position. Any ideas on how you would listen for arbitrary controller buttons? |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | gmail's video chat |
| 21:18 | <othermaciej> | no idea |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: this is actually already specced, it's a combination of the mousewheel and keyboard event interfaces imho |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | what i think would be even more useful is exposing the mac remote |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | to web pages |
| 21:19 | <TabAtkins> | jamesr_: The current <device> API is just a way of asking the user for a hardware stream. The individual stream objects can have specialized interfaces. |
| 21:19 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Where is it specced? |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | i'm tired of having to use remote desktop to pause hulu instead of just being able to use the remote |
| 21:19 | <jamesr_> | TabAtkins: yeah, that's kind of not the point. the API you want and the permissions around it depend on _what_ is in the stream |
| 21:20 | <TabAtkins> | jamesr_: A valid point. |
| 21:20 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: the old dom3 note had a simple way of exposing any key-like input |
| 21:20 | <jamesr_> | i think treating everything as "a stream of data from the hardware" is throwing away lots of useful information |
| 21:20 | <othermaciej> | I don't know anything about what data is typically exposed by a game controller |
| 21:20 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: not sure where the mousewheel stuff is |
| 21:20 | <jamesr_> | when the sorts of data are really different |
| 21:20 | <jamesr_> | and i don't know of anyone that really wants to solve this for every type of hardware in the world. people care about particular use cases (webcam, microphone, controller) that will probably need different APIs |
| 21:20 | <Hixie> | of course if you're talking about modern controllers with their accellerometers and so forth, that's a different ballgame |
| 21:21 | <othermaciej> | old school controllers have buttons/triggers and the analog stick |
| 21:21 | <Ms2ger> | jamesr_, the idea is that you get an object that implements a specialized API |
| 21:21 | <othermaciej> | but in some cases buttons are themselves pressure-sensitive/analog, not binary on/off |
| 21:21 | <jamesr_> | Ms2ger: then what's the value of <device> at all? |
| 21:21 | <Ms2ger> | Getting that object |
| 21:21 | <webr3> | would it even be possible to define an api that could be used by all devices of one category? or would it have to be more of an on demand loadDeviceAPI(foo) type thing |
| 21:21 | <webr3> | (like crypto in firefox) |
| 21:22 | <Hixie> | jamesr_: the value was the permissions model. but i don't think anyone is advocating for <device> anymore. |
| 21:22 | <othermaciej> | some kinds of devices have a meaningful common interface |
| 21:23 | <webr3> | it's a wonder there isn't already a game device api somewhere from game manufacturors that could be ported and used (game devices just being an example) |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | Apple remote would be easy to expose as just key presses |
| 21:23 | <roc> | I think it's "USB" |
| 21:23 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yeah |
| 21:23 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: we should do that |
| 21:23 | <TabAtkins> | Well, "HID". |
| 21:23 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: it would be awesome |
| 21:24 | <TabAtkins> | HID is a simplification of generic USB, and you can simplify it further. |
| 21:24 | <othermaciej> | USB is not generally a useful application-level interface for many kinds of USB devices |
| 21:24 | <webr3> | remote api for html? that'd be sweet, especially w/ tv and web wgs coming up |
| 21:25 | <darrel> | TabAtkins: Barcode scanning input needs to be differentiated from keyboard input to avoid need for control focus. |
| 21:26 | <TabAtkins> | darrel: I wouldn't know. My old company's product just installed a keylogger and listened for Alt+F12 to indicate that it should steal focus. |
| 21:26 | <webr3> | is there a set of requirements for what barcode scanners would need? if something was down I doublt it'd be the msot difficult thing to cater for, and probably worth it given all the html based pos terminals |
| 21:27 | <darrel> | TabAtkins: Alt+F12 was encoded into the barcode? |
| 21:27 | <TabAtkins> | darrel: Yes. |
| 21:28 | <darrel> | TabAtkins: Our enterprise app reads direct from the serial port and treats it as distinct input and we don't mess with the user's focus. |
| 21:28 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, your scanner plugs into the serial? Ours was, like I said, just a USB device that masqueraded as a keyboard. |
| 21:28 | <darrel> | TabAtkins: Interesting workaround though. |
| 21:29 | <Ms2ger> | darrel, almost sounds like you're professionals |
| 21:29 | <TabAtkins> | You could open up Notepad and scan barcodes in. |
| 21:29 | <darrel> | Ms2ger: hehe |
| 21:29 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: i was thinking we should map the remote keys to up, down, left, right, and space (i'm guessing apple won't want to expose the menu key since it goes into front row), with the events having .location set to DOM_KEY_LOCATION_REMOTE (0x06, a new value) |
| 21:30 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Would they be events just fired at window or something? |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | just regular key events, fired like normal keyboard events at whatever has focus |
| 21:30 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: when/if we do this, we'd probably want to give <video> and <audio> default actions for the relevant events that DTRT |
| 21:30 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, kk. |
| 21:30 | <othermaciej> | so I dunno if we'd want to overload arrow keys |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yeah, that would just be the UA default action |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: well the UA would check the .location |
| 21:31 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: the idea is just to make the thing already work on pages that use spacebar for pause/play |
| 21:31 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: without us having to do anything |
| 21:31 | <webr3> | darrel, last time i did a POS system (6 years ago?) we just programmed the devices to send a /n char code after the barcode because they too masqueraded as keyboard devices |
| 21:31 | <TabAtkins> | Masquerading as keyboards makes it easy to test if they're working. ^_^ |
| 21:32 | <darrel> | webr3: I realize it is a common approach, it just is less flexible. |
| 21:32 | <TabAtkins> | darrel: Plus it means you have to know how to deal with virus scanners killing your keylogger. |
| 21:33 | TabAtkins | shudders at the memory of a McAfee update that quarantined the logger for everyone. |
| 21:33 | <darrel> | TabAtkins: I hadn't thought of that side benefit :-) |
| 21:34 | <key> | http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua <-- RFC |
| 21:35 | <TabAtkins> | darrel: Actually, I remember how it worked now. The Alt+F12 wasn't in the barcode. We had programming sheets you would initialize the scanner with before first use that would prepend any entry with that chord, though. |
| 21:35 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I'm here briefly |
| 21:36 | <darrel> | TabAtkins: Yeah, barcode scanners have all sorts of funcky methods to customize the output to work around old VT terminal based software. |
| 21:37 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i was going to ask a question about your scripting bugs; ended up just asking them in the bugs instead |
| 21:40 | <Ms2ger> | Yay, I'm in the spec! |
| 21:41 | <gsnedders> | Transatlantic flights without a Saturday stayover are so expensive… |
| 21:41 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, not sure why the DOMParser part is commented out |
| 21:42 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: So add a saturday stayover. |
| 21:43 | <Ms2ger> | Still expensive |
| 21:43 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Half the price. |
| 21:43 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: Or a third with some airlines. |
| 21:44 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: Tempting. I'm at a concert the Saturday before going, so can't leave till Sunday, and need to be in uni by 16:00 on Monday. |
| 21:45 | <jamesr_> | if it's a third of the price, buy two trips and fly half of each? |
| 21:45 | <jamesr_> | it'd have to be the first half of each, obv |
| 21:46 | <gsnedders> | jamesr_: Hah, yeah, true :) |
| 21:46 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: What james said. Exploit airline stupidity by counter-gouging them. |
| 21:46 | <gsnedders> | jamesr_: There are more reasonable airlines where that isn't case. :) |
| 21:46 | <TabAtkins> | Also: then use the return leg of each flight to take a second trip a few weeks later. |
| 21:47 | <gsnedders> | BA is by far the worse for this. It goes from £500 return to £1800. |
| 21:47 | <TabAtkins> | Bleh. |
| 21:47 | <Ms2ger> | Make sure they don't cancel your return flight because you didn't turn up for the first, though |
| 21:48 | <TabAtkins> | They will, without question. You have to use the first leg for this. |
| 21:48 | <TabAtkins> | They are stupid assholes for it and I hate them. |
| 21:48 | <TabAtkins> | Grrrrr. |
| 21:48 | TabAtkins | had a bad experience with trying to innocently reshuffle international flights after my plans changed. |
| 21:49 | <gsnedders> | 1:15 to change from a transatlantic flight to a domestic flight at LHR. Why do I doubt that is reasonable? |
| 21:49 | <Ms2ger> | I suspect because it isn't :) |
| 21:49 | <Hixie> | Ms2ger: commented out? |
| 21:50 | <Ms2ger> | ..nts, <!--scripts in <code>DOMParser.. |
| 21:50 | <Hixie> | oh, oops |
| 21:50 | <Hixie> | got the wrong line |
| 21:54 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks |
| 21:55 | <Philip`> | About game controllers: As far as I'm aware, the common API seems to be like in http://google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#PPdD7__6Qbg/src/xboxmsg.hpp - a load of 1/8/16-bit values which it constantly transmits over USB |
| 21:56 | <Philip`> | and if you want button events then you have to poll it (and if it's a more-than-1-bit button apply some threshold) |
| 21:57 | <Philip`> | I don't know what high-level application APIs tend to do with that raw data, though |
| 21:58 | <Philip`> | (except SDL which makes it look like a joystick, so you have lots of button events and some pollable axes) |
| 21:58 | <gsnedders> | Anyone know if you have a transfer at EWR going from SFO to GLA whether you have to go through security again, because you're going on a transatlantic flight? |
| 21:59 | <gwillen> | typically you will not have to go through security a second time between a US-US hop and an international hop; but in the reverse direction (after an international hop, before boarding a domestic hop) you will |
| 22:00 | <key> | http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua <-- RFC |
| 22:01 | <gsnedders> | gwillen: Yeah, I know there's always immigration going into the US |
| 22:01 | gsnedders | wonders if it is reasonable to stay until the Sunday in CA, and arrive at 6:30am at GLA then go to uni that day… |
| 22:03 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: it's a bit annoying to have important information about XSLTProcessor commented out |
| 22:03 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: notes aren't normative, so surely they can mention stuff that doesn't normatively exist yet |
| 22:04 | <jamesr_> | gsnedders: you go through security twice in some airports. for example when going international -> LAX -> domestic, in LAX you first go through immigration then go _outside the airport_ then go through domestic security before boarding the second flight |
| 22:04 | <jamesr_> | it's super stupid |
| 22:04 | <jamesr_> | dunno if any other US airports are designed that poorly |
| 22:05 | <gsnedders> | Newark is the interesting one. |
| 22:05 | <jamesr_> | newark is awful |
| 22:07 | <gsnedders> | Well, it's the only airport with direct flights to Glasgow, though |
| 22:12 | <wpollock> | Anyone there? I'd like to discuss charset for a moment. |
| 22:16 | <wpollock> | I have never understood why, when the document declares a different charset than the web server sets in the document's header, why any web browser would choose to believe the web server and not the document author. Using .htaccess files is not a production web server best practice (large performance penalty for using), and modifying the httpd.conf file (or equivalent) for every document... |
| 22:17 | <wpollock> | ...added or updated seems ridiculous to me. The charset declared in the HTTP header should be a fall back default, used only if the document doesn't supply a valid one. The proper place for defining this, it seems to me, would be the DOCTYPE declaration. The the issue I have with charset is that you can only set one for an entire document. HTML 5 allows a charset attribute on tags that... |
| 22:17 | <wpollock> | ..."import" content. But many single documents have parts that are editable or come from multiple sources. (Think of forms, blogs and forums, and mash-ups produced by, say PHP, from multiple sources.) It may not be technically feasible, but charset should be an allowed attribute on EVERY block-level element. At the very least, on ARTICLE, DIV, SECTION, and the like. |
| 22:17 | <key> | ok, http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua RFC? |
| 22:17 | <key> | i need to make sure i understand html 5 semantic tags properly |
| 22:24 | <TabAtkins> | wpollock: Easier solution: Use utf-8 everywhere. |
| 22:30 | <wpollock> | I do use utf-8 everywhere, but some websites that host my pages aren't set to that, so I'm stuck. (Also, utf-8 is an English-centric encoding, it seems politically incorrect to insist on it everywhere!) |
| 22:30 | <jcranmer> | well, most metadata is written using US-ASCII |
| 22:31 | <jcranmer> | so UTF-8 is no worse than UTF-16 for most text, and is generally better |
| 22:32 | <TabAtkins> | wpollock: The argument that utf-8 is english-centric is pretty misinformed. For HTML pages, utf-8 is almost always better than other encodings that are more specialized for cjk content, due to the large amount of ascii text used in HTML source code. |
| 22:32 | <key> | ok, http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua RFC? |
| 22:32 | <TabAtkins> | Second, political correctness takes a back seat to everyone in the world using a single well-defined encoding. |
| 22:33 | <wpollock> | I like utf-8. I single encoding everywhere makes life easy. If you can't do that, I wanted to know why the HTTP header should be believed over the document author? And I wanted to know why different parts of a web application couldn't have different encodings used? |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i'm happy to uncomment it out, all i need is a url for [XSLTP] -- doesn't have to be normative |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: unfortunately i couldn't find anything like a canonical URL for it |
| 22:35 | <jcranmer> | UTF-8 may suck, but the only other really tenable encoding is UTF-16 |
| 22:35 | <jcranmer> | and UTF-16 causes as much problems as it solves, due to the plane issue |
| 22:37 | <key> | why do we never get to a point in tech where things just work and are perfect? |
| 22:37 | <key> | we have the benefit of digital systems |
| 22:37 | <key> | we don't have 'lossyness' of mechanical systems, yet they seem stronger |
| 22:39 | <TabAtkins> | jcranmer: Why does utf-8 suck? |
| 22:40 | <roc> | UTF8 doesn't suck, it's the best of all worlds |
| 22:40 | <roc> | it's certainly strictly better than UTF16 |
| 22:40 | <TabAtkins> | Come now, that's an exaggeration. In the best world, utf-32's memory footprint would be irrelevant, and we could just use that. |
| 22:40 | <othermaciej> | UTF8 is not the best of all worlds |
| 22:41 | <othermaciej> | but UTF16 is the worst of all worlds |
| 22:41 | <othermaciej> | it has almost all the disadvantages of both UTF-8 and UTF-32 |
| 22:41 | <roc> | ok, the best world is where everyone switches to English |
| 22:41 | <wpollock> | I don't think WHATWG or W3C can enforce a single encoding, A pity, but what can be done is to allow web authors the ability to declare the charset of documents or parts of documents. I'm not a member of whatwg (nor anyone important), but I feel strongly enough to spend time working on this if I can. Is there anyone whom I can make this suggestion to, that could move it forward? It... |
| 22:41 | <wpollock> | ...doesn't seem to me that anyone objects to the idea, only that (like myself) we wish for a Utopian world of a single universal encoding of text files. I don't think this work break backward compatibility (except in a good way, in that author declared charset would have more weight than HTTP declared charset). Nor should it be technically difficult to implement. It shouldn't cause any... |
| 22:41 | <wpollock> | ...security holes (Indeed, it may close some!) It may not be practical for other reasons, which is why I asked here. |
| 22:41 | <TabAtkins> | Ok, you got me there, roc. |
| 22:42 | <TabAtkins> | wpollock: We can indirectly enforce a single encoding, by making it hard to use odd encodings. |
| 22:44 | <key> | wpollock: you make a good point. it wouldn't be in the philosophy of the web to demand a single encoding, rather a markup syntax to allow declaration of encoding is ideal |
| 22:56 | <wpollock> | key: so what can be done about it? |
| 22:57 | <key> | i don't know if anything needs to be done about it. i like that there isn't a single enforced encoding |
| 22:57 | <key> | i like that there's, rather, an infrastructure allowing the use an declaration of an arbitrary set of encodings |
| 22:57 | <key> | to me that seems more open |
| 22:58 | <Philip`> | There are pages that declare a correct HTTP-level charset and an incorrect HTML-level charset, so you can't change the behaviour of browsers without causing some previously-working pages to stop working, so they won't make that change |
| 22:58 | <wpollock> | What I mean is, who do we go about changing the HTML standard, so the charset defined in the document overrides one set in the HTTP header? |
| 22:58 | <Philip`> | (regardless of whether it makes logical sense or not) |
| 22:58 | <TabAtkins> | wpollock: First, establish that what you propose is web-compatible. I expect this will be the difficult part. |
| 22:59 | <wpollock> | Okay, but to whom do I submit my proposals? I have no standing. (Maybe this is a lost cause and I should just give it up before I annoy everyone?) |
| 22:59 | <TabAtkins> | Send email to the WHATWG list. |
| 23:00 | <key> | wpollock: improvement suggestions are never annoying to sane people |
| 23:00 | <key> | only to nazis and goblins |
| 23:00 | <TabAtkins> | Your standing is irrelevant, though the opinions of browser vendors do have somewhat more weight than the opinions of other people in practice (since they control what's in the browser). |
| 23:00 | <key> | i'd bypass whatwg and suggest it to a W3 or webstandards.org list |
| 23:00 | <TabAtkins> | But it's very likely that what you're proposing isn't web-compatible, so it can't be changed. |
| 23:01 | <key> | TabAtkins: why would it not be web compatible? i can see the http header being overridden by the document |
| 23:01 | <key> | hell, if anything it's more web compatible, considering how elements can carry a lang attribute to mix and match languages |
| 23:01 | <key> | same thing should exist for encodings, no? |
| 23:03 | <Philip`> | Users get very unhappy when pages that previously worked stop working, so the most important compatibility requirement is to avoid that happening |
| 23:03 | <Philip`> | It doesn't matter much if some previously incorrect pages start working, because users probably weren't using those pages anyway (given that they were broken) |
| 23:04 | <key> | what rsa key length is the common as of late? |
| 23:04 | <key> | is it still 2048 or larger? |
| 23:11 | <webr3> | we typically use 2048 or 4096 |
| 23:12 | <wpollock> | Thanks, I will do that. Suggestions can be annoying if made by ignorant (if well-intentioned) people. I will make the two proposals, the second to allows charset attribute on any block level content. Thanks for your time! |
| 23:20 | <realityking> | Mixing charsets inside one document sound like trouble to me. |
| 23:20 | <key> | really? |
| 23:20 | <Philip`> | Extremely |
| 23:21 | <key> | but wouldn't you need to? (read: UTN #22) |
| 23:21 | <key> | (http://unicode.org/notes/tn22/) |
| 23:21 | <Philip`> | Having the encoding indicators being encoded in their own encodings is always trouble |
| 23:21 | <key> | ah yea, true |
| 23:22 | <Philip`> | and having end-of-encoding indicators encoded in that encoding sounds worse |
| 23:22 | <Philip`> | and probably incompatible with efficient buffered decoder implementations |
| 23:23 | <TabAtkins> | What does UTN22 have to do with multiple encodings? |
| 23:24 | Philip` | doesn't understand why people would look at the complexity of the current character encoding system and decide that the solution to its problems is to add more complexity :-) |
| 23:29 | <karlcow> | http://norman.walsh.name/2011/02/08/html-xml |
| 23:29 | <key> | omg i need to get high so bad |
| 23:29 | <TabAtkins> | Okay, yeah, key's going back on ignore. Goddammit. |
| 23:29 | <key> | you're such a little bitch Tab |
| 23:30 | <miketaylr> | O_o |
| 23:32 | <AryehGregor> | key, didn't you say you'd only flame us once a week? You have to wait till Monday. |
| 23:33 | <key> | AryehGregor: yea, and i am intent on keeping that agreement, but Tab flipped out for something totally innocuous |
| 23:33 | <key> | many people self medicate legally and productively with 'teh ganja |
| 23:34 | <key> | AryehGregor: can i get your input on: http://www.pastie.org/private/z4e91xoa8dx8twu4etl2ua |
| 23:34 | <key> | (btw, maybe Tab was tempted by what i said, being a former closet stoner) |
| 23:35 | <key> | i'll be more sensitive to his addiction issues in the future |
| 23:37 | <AryehGregor> | What's the procedure for getting tests approved again? |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | Send an email to the list. |
| 23:37 | <AryehGregor> | That seems inefficient, and annoying to everyone on the list. At least it would be if we had a nontrivial number of tests being written. |
| 23:38 | <AryehGregor> | key, no real opinion. |
| 23:42 | TabAtkins | reads the list archives. |
| 23:43 | <TabAtkins> | Sigh, key, don't be stupid. Alcohol is roughly equivalent to marijuana. I like to drink. However, I don't announce that I totally need to get drunk, because it's stupid and of no interest to *anyone ever*. You were already on my shitlist for trolling, so hearing you make a stupid comment like that for no reason was adequate justification to perma-ignore you. |
| 23:43 | <TabAtkins> | (Note: you're still ignored. Respond if you want, I don't care.) |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | man, you're not doing a good job of ignoring him :-P |
| 23:44 | <TabAtkins> | Hah, indeed. |
| 23:44 | <AryehGregor> | This is why I never /ignore people. |
| 23:44 | <AryehGregor> | Waste of effort. |
| 23:45 | <TabAtkins> | AryehGregor: Really? I find it useful. I still have mookid ignored, for example, which has been productive the last few times he's showed up. |
| 23:45 | <hober> | I don't /ignore because I think it's important for channel regulars / ops to see what new entrants would see, to help cut down on crap |
| 23:46 | <TabAtkins> | We don't have an op, though, and can't meaningfully reduce crap. |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | actually we do |
| 23:47 | <TabAtkins> | Oh right, we gained one a while ago. |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | but it would be sad to kick people since we've gone 8 years without doing so |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | even on the list i've only ever banned like 2 people |
| 23:47 | <Hixie> | and neither for more than 2 weeks |
| 23:49 | <hober> | yeah, I'm one of the ops, so just let me know when things get really out of hand :) |
| 23:53 | <key> | TabAtkins: i see your point, except you forget we're all humans here, not workbots. i come from old school IRC, where people actually had conversations and got to know each other |
| 23:54 | <AryehGregor> | We do that. |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | speak for yourself |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | i'm a bot |
| 23:54 | <Hixie> | just ask anyone |
| 23:54 | <AryehGregor> | Generally spam by channel regulars is tolerated if no one is trying to use the channel for anything serious at the time. |
| 23:55 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, I spent quite a while yesterday talking about group theory here. |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | yeah dude |
| 23:55 | <Hixie> | why didn't we ban you |
| 23:55 | <AryehGregor> | But it's more annoying if someone says spammy stuff who doesn't have a substantial history of productive contributions. |
| 23:55 | <key> | you use the term spam too loosely there |
| 23:55 | <AryehGregor> | Deliberately. |
| 23:55 | <key> | you're incorrect in your use |
| 23:56 | <AryehGregor> | It's a valid colloquialism. |
| 23:57 | <key> | amongst sloppy noobs |
| 23:57 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, whatever. |
