| 04:01 | <GPHemsley> | I don't suppose any WebVTT validators have cropped up yet? |
| 04:11 | <GPHemsley> | Also, why are there no samples/examples of WebVTT within the spec? |
| 06:58 | <MikeSmith> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=617528#c1 |
| 06:58 | <MikeSmith> | Paul Roget asks, "My main concern is security. How can we make it clear that these menu-items are not from Firefox?" |
| 06:58 | <MikeSmith> | anybody have thoughts? |
| 06:59 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: ? |
| 06:59 | <zewt> | given that they can't actually do anything insecure, what's the actual risk? |
| 06:59 | <MikeSmith> | seems like putting an icon of some kind next to each of them |
| 07:01 | <MikeSmith> | zewt: I guess Paul doesn't want users to assume the items have any level of trust given to them by the browser |
| 07:01 | <zewt> | you can already style fake things that look like browser prompts, eg. make a bar at the top that looks like FF or Chrome's security prompts |
| 07:01 | <MikeSmith> | sure |
| 07:02 | <MikeSmith> | that doesn't mean browsers should just give up and not attempt to have indicators where they can |
| 07:02 | <zewt> | but they also shouldn't have indicators sprinkled everywhere based on objections that aren't substantiated enough |
| 07:02 | <MikeSmith> | and in this case it's not just about security anyway |
| 07:03 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 07:03 | <MikeSmith> | geez |
| 07:03 | <zewt> | people won't understand "icon == not from the browser" |
| 07:03 | <zewt> | and uglifying browser items isn't very nice, either--you should be able to provide your own icon, I'd think |
| 07:04 | <othermaciej> | context menus can already be replaced in other ways |
| 07:06 | <MikeSmith> | sure |
| 07:07 | <MikeSmith> | and this is not something the spec needs to necessarily address at all |
| 07:07 | <MikeSmith> | it's an implementation detail, and he's asking for feedback |
| 07:07 | <othermaciej> | I understand the general concern about letting web sites hook up things that look like trusted UI |
| 07:07 | <zewt> | right |
| 07:07 | <othermaciej> | though the context menu is a low risk area |
| 07:16 | <zewt> | mental note: never view image on a canvas in FF. heh |
| 07:36 | <MikeSmith> | https://github.com/pgriess/node-webworker |
| 07:45 | <ben_h> | j #html5 |
| 07:46 | <ben_h> | it seems someone's taken my slash |
| 08:37 | <annevk> | mornings |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | おはよう |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | I think the common response to something like that is "fuck you too" but lets use Google translate first |
| 08:39 | <annevk> | :) |
| 08:41 | <Peter-> | Goedemorgen, MikeSmith! |
| 08:41 | <Peter-> | and annevk/others of course |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | Peter-: hey hey |
| 08:49 | <ben_h> | こんいちわ MikeSmith |
| 08:54 | <zewt> | こんにちは :P |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | I say こんちや sometimes |
| 08:55 | <Dashiva> | ちわす |
| 08:56 | <Dashiva> | I guess we're too old for that |
| 08:56 | <zewt> | ここは夜だけど |
| 08:58 | <MikeSmith> | if you want to hear some fun spoken Japanese, search for ロペ on Youtube and watch some of those |
| 08:58 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=93D23F5D69152DE6 |
| 08:58 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2Y2QGnButY |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | it's gold |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | man, the fan on my MikeBook is failing |
| 09:01 | <zewt> | heh, i can't follow natural japanese at all |
| 09:01 | <MikeSmith> | I hope it lasts long enough until the refresh arrives |
| 09:01 | <annevk> | by MikeBook you mean your patched black MacBook? |
| 09:01 | <zewt> | if regular people all had the enunciation of voice actors, maybe I'd manage |
| 09:01 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: yeah |
| 09:01 | <annevk> | wow |
| 09:02 | <annevk> | you've had that laptop for as long as I can remember :) |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 09:02 | <Dashiva> | zewt: And they speak so quickly |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | I dread replacing it because I'll lose all my stickers |
| 09:03 | <MikeSmith> | some people from Kyoto speak more slowly |
| 09:03 | <annevk> | btw peoples, now is your time to scream: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-notification/2011Feb/0005.html (well, don't) |
| 09:03 | <Dashiva> | まじ半端ねえ、あれ |
| 09:04 | <MikeSmith> | I wish somebody would make subtitles for those ロペ videos, because the stuff those guys are saying is really funny |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, I have to drop off for a bit |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | back later |
| 10:28 | <annevk> | http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-search-provider-apis |
| 10:36 | <zewt> | http://isolani.co.uk/blog/javascript/BreakingTheWebWithHashBangs <- it's impossible to take this guy seriously, heh |
| 10:38 | <zewt> | a bunch of mysterious handwaving for the fact that it's absolutely critical to every web app, and "breaking the web" is such a ridiculous overstatement, it undermines his whole argument |
| 10:39 | <annevk> | nothing wrong with a bit of hyperbole every now and then |
| 10:40 | <Workshiva> | To be fair, I really don't consider news sites web applications |
| 10:40 | <zewt> | not when it's taken so far it sounds like satire |
| 10:50 | <Workshiva> | In a way it's good |
| 10:50 | <Workshiva> | Lets the people still stuck in the 80s realize that javascript is here to stay |
| 10:51 | <Workshiva> | And if they don't start working with it, they might not like the results :) |
| 11:09 | <annevk> | Workshiva, been reading www-tag lately? :) |
| 11:14 | <Workshiva> | annevk: I only ever read that when someone links it |
| 11:55 | <Evet> | is JSONP really insecure for private data? |
| 11:55 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2011/02/frame_accurate_video_in_html5.html |
| 11:56 | <MikeSmith> | "as of this week, after 120 emails, the bleeding edge development versions of several HTML5 implementations (as used in Safari, Chrome, Mozilla and many others) are now fully frame accurate" |
| 12:18 | <ben_h> | MikeSmith: awesome! |
| 12:21 | <MikeSmith> | it's great to see an article like that giving credit to the actual developers who did the work |
| 12:21 | <ben_h> | hell yeah |
| 12:21 | <ben_h> | developers are pretty cool these days |
| 12:21 | <ben_h> | :) |
| 12:31 | <Workshiva> | Evet: If any site you visit can access the data, would you call it private? |
| 12:35 | <erlehmann> | opera devs, please support CORS |
| 12:35 | <erlehmann> | thanks |
| 12:35 | <erlehmann> | ._. |
| 12:38 | <Evet> | :) |
| 12:41 | <MikeSmith> | the comments about Workers in http://dt.deviantart.com/blog/38471599/ are particularly interesting |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | hmm, my schedule for today was not very ambitious |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | I wonder if I missed something |
| 12:50 | <annevk> | that blog post from the BBC is a nice change from the one some time ago |
| 12:52 | <Evet> | i wish flash sockets + html5 websockets cover 100% of browsers |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, maybe you can reply to John's email about the draft with information on pubrules? |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | or I can do it |
| 12:54 | <annevk> | that is, giving a link to http://www.w3.org/Guide/pubrules |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: if you can, that'd be great |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | I looked for him on #chromium but not finding him |
| 13:04 | <MikeSmith> | the source really should be updated to use the JS respec |
| 13:04 | <MikeSmith> | but I'm not sure it's worth stopping to take time to do that now |
| 13:04 | <MikeSmith> | though it actually wouldn't take too much time |
| 13:05 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know whether he's got the source set up that way because he actually prefers that, instead of editing HTML and using JS, or what |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | I know nothing about Respec |
| 13:06 | <annevk> | but I'll bring it up |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | はい |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, do I need to email out some pubrequests? |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, guess we need shortname approval |
| 13:08 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 13:08 | <MikeSmith> | actually |
| 13:08 | <MikeSmith> | need to mail the chairs list |
| 13:10 | <MikeSmith> | "The Chair sends a transition request to the Domain Lead(s) responsible for the group(s) publishing the document, cc'ing w3t-comm⊙wo and chairs⊙wo" |
| 13:11 | <MikeSmith> | "The goal of the transition request is to secure an archived record of the Domain Lead(s)' approval of the title, and shortname." |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | I will give PLH a heads-up about this today |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | it's a holiday in the US I guess |
| 13:12 | <MikeSmith> | he'll probably be on for a bit anyway |
| 13:16 | <annevk> | okay, I can do that |
| 13:17 | <annevk> | first ever email to chairs I think |
| 13:17 | <annevk> | back to Member-only territory brrr |
| 13:18 | kennyluck | wonders whether folks here know how pronounce はい |
| 13:18 | <wilhelm> | kennyluck: Hai. |
| 13:19 | <wilhelm> | (は on its own is usually “wa”, though.) |
| 13:19 | <Peter-> | Iie! |
| 13:20 | <kennyluck> | for reasons I don't know, this word gives me a funny image. |
| 13:20 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: chairs list really should be public |
| 13:20 | <MikeSmith> | i guess I shouldn't say that |
| 13:20 | <MikeSmith> | I guess the issue with doing that is, some chairs still have some member-only groups… |
| 13:21 | <MikeSmith> | maybe we should have a chairs list for all the public groups, and a chairs list for all the member-only groups |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, emailed |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, included request for being able to copy a public list going forward |
| 13:34 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, hopefully I got it all right, I didn't look up the chair guidelines doc as I couldn't locate it quickly |
| 13:36 | <MikeSmith> | I just read it, it's fine as-is |
| 13:36 | <MikeSmith> | I suspect plh answer will be, you are free to copy to www-archive if you want |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | mkay |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | that is something |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | did http://esw.w3.org/HTML/history get lost somehow? |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | just found that again via hsivonen slides who just tweeted that w3.org never go wrong |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | w3.org URLs* |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | hsivonen's* |
| 15:07 | <Philip`> | Does anyone have data on how frequent PAC (proxy auto-config) usage is? |
| 15:40 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: hmm |
| 15:40 | <MikeSmith> | if so, my fault |
| 15:40 | <MikeSmith> | damn |
| 15:40 | <MikeSmith> | not lost |
| 15:40 | <MikeSmith> | just different URL |
| 15:41 | <MikeSmith> | eh? |
| 15:41 | <MikeSmith> | something borked |
| 15:42 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: it's at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/History |
| 15:43 | <MikeSmith> | now I just need to figure out how to get http://www.w3.org/wiki/HTML/history to redirect to there |
| 15:45 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Redirects |
| 15:45 | <MikeSmith> | but that can only redirect to a page on the same wiki, not to an arbitrary URL |
| 15:46 | <thiessenp> | (sorry off topic but :) Can anyone recommend a good JS crypto library (RSA, BigInt etc.)? |
| 15:48 | <MikeSmith> | thiessenp: not off topic :) |
| 15:48 | <MikeSmith> | but I don't know of one personally |
| 15:48 | MikeSmith | looks around for Adam Barth |
| 15:48 | <MikeSmith> | wirepair: ↑ |
| 15:49 | <zcorpan> | thiessenp: i think window.crypto.getRandomValue or what it's called is being added to address that |
| 15:51 | <annevk> | is it just me or has interest in WHATWG Weekly waned somewhat? |
| 15:51 | <annevk> | I wonder if it should maybe done in a somewhat different way |
| 15:52 | <MikeSmith> | how do you measure interest in it? |
| 15:52 | <annevk> | tweets / comments / feedback via IRC/email |
| 15:52 | <Peter-> | get used to it :p |
| 15:52 | <annevk> | haven't looked at stats recently |
| 15:53 | <Peter-> | comments on my webkit posts are lowish lately as well, as are the tweets |
| 15:53 | <annevk> | though I did notice subscriber count went up for the feed in Google reader |
| 15:53 | <Peter-> | view counts are still rising though |
| 15:53 | <kennyluck> | I have great interest in it, personally. |
| 15:54 | <MikeSmith> | what is the anti-TPM clause in CC licenses? |
| 15:54 | <annevk> | Peter-, interesting |
| 15:54 | <nimbupani> | annevk: maybe coz we know you are leaving :P |
| 15:59 | <MikeSmith> | so next month marks the seventh anniversary of the whatwg.org domain being registered |
| 15:59 | <MikeSmith> | three months prior to the infamous W3C Workshop on Web Applications and Compound Document |
| 16:00 | <MikeSmith> | s |
| 16:01 | <annevk> | a year for each capital |
| 16:02 | <MikeSmith> | capital? |
| 16:03 | <annevk> | that is quite long |
| 16:03 | <MikeSmith> | ah |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | guess I'm getting close to a decade of something |
| 16:04 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, you got it? heh; useless number game :p |
| 16:05 | <MikeSmith> | for me, it's close to 10 years since I moved to Japan |
| 16:05 | <MikeSmith> | even more: my daughter just turned 13 years old this weekend |
| 16:06 | <MikeSmith> | oh, "technological protection measures" |
| 16:06 | <MikeSmith> | jesus |
| 16:07 | <MikeSmith> | why don't they just say DRM? |
| 16:07 | <MikeSmith> | acronym proliferation |
| 16:28 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, TPM is more generic than DRM. AIUI, TPM can be any protection measure, either analogue or digital. |
| 16:28 | <MikeSmith> | yeah well |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | one can always mint more precise acronyms I guess |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | but point taken |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy: hey |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | btw, where you been, man? |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | you've become a ghost |
| 16:30 | <MikeSmith> | you working on some secret project |
| 16:37 | <Lachy> | I'm working on lots of stuff internally at opera and haven't had too much time to follow what goes in HTML lately |
| 16:38 | <Lachy> | MikeSmith, also, because of the way bugzilla is used on public-html, it makes it much more difficult than it should be to actually follow anything. |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | yep |
| 16:39 | <MikeSmith> | not my choice |
| 16:39 | <Lachy> | I really wish we could go back to how it was before bugzilla became used as a poorly designed forum, that I hate even more than real forums |
| 18:04 | <yecril71pl> | Why is document in the lexical scope of code in event handler attributes? |
| 18:05 | <yecril71pl> | like onclick="alert (write === document. write)"? |
| 18:08 | <bga_> | strange |
| 18:08 | <bga_> | `true` in chrome11 |
| 18:10 | <yecril71pl> | and in Konqueror |
| 18:10 | <bga_> | in opera too |
| 18:11 | <yecril71pl> | Since browsers are unanimous, there must be some method in this madness |
| 18:13 | <bga_> | but |
| 18:13 | <bga_> | var a = document.createElement('a'); a.setAttribute('onclick', 'alert (title === document.title)'); a.onclick() |
| 18:14 | <bga_> | false |
| 18:14 | <yecril71pl> | in event handler attributes only |
| 18:18 | <yecril71pl> | DOM-Level-2-Events 1.3.2.: No technique is provided to allow HTML 4.0 event listeners access to the context information defined for each event. |
| 18:22 | <yecril71pl> | Neither HTML 4 nor DOM Level 1 discuss binding of events |
| 18:26 | <Philip`> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#event-handler-content-attributes |
| 18:26 | <Philip`> | "Let Scope be the result of NewObjectEnvironment(the element's Document, the global environment)." |
| 18:26 | <Philip`> | Sounds like that might be it |
| 18:30 | <yecril71pl> | Thanks, that cuts it. Any background? Was it in DOM 0? |
| 18:32 | <Philip`> | I have no idea |
| 19:45 | yecril71pl | found it: http://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/webprog/jscript/ch19_01.htm, 19.1.6: Scope of Event Handlers |
| 19:46 | <yecril71pl> | Note that it actually pulls all properties of containing elements, not just Document |
| 19:46 | <yecril71pl> | HTML5 takes a more modest apporach |
| 19:46 | <yecril71pl> | HTML5 takes a more modest approach |
| 19:47 | <yecril71pl> | It is like extended "this", and it is more logical this way. |
| 19:48 | yecril71pl | means more consistent |
| 19:48 | <yecril71pl> | So why did HTML5 choose to include that Document as an exception? |
| 19:52 | <nonge_> | Would it be 'right' to use <canvas> for an "eyecandy only" animation? … wich would normally be the job of CSS, but canvas-like stuff is not possible with it :/ |
| 19:56 | <yecril71pl> | Flanagan’s book, however, does not provide any further references; it does not even say who Flanagan is. |
| 20:05 | <yecril71pl> | the technical term for it is "augmented scope chain" |
| 20:06 | <yecril71pl> | http://www.jibbering.com/faq/names/event_handler.html disagrees, and includes only FORM and document. |
| 20:12 | <nonge_> | for example, using an empty <canvas></canvas>, which only use is "simulating" an background-image (with z-index) |
| 20:26 | <annevk> | Gecko has document.contentType apparently |
| 20:27 | <annevk> | we have some bug that requests it (not a compat issue) |
| 20:27 | <annevk> | guess that should be in HTML, given that it defines page loading and such |
| 20:36 | <annevk> | going through TAG minutes... |
| 20:36 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/08-minutes#item03 still actively considering DTDs... |
| 20:36 | <annevk> | for HTML |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/02/09-minutes seems to cover a bunch of HTML stuff too |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | couldn't find much interesting stuff |
| 20:45 | <annevk> | at least what interests me |
| 20:45 | <annevk> | I believe that does include web architecture, but apparently a different kind |
| 20:48 | <AryehGregor> | Is it just me, or can I not actually click on this button in Opera while I have the web inspector thing loaded? http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/test/bold.html |
| 20:48 | <AryehGregor> | Because that seems . . . well, makes it sort of hard to use. |
| 20:50 | <jacobolus> | annevk: did you intend to have the latest whatwg blog post end with a sentence fragment? |
| 20:50 | <jacobolus> | annevk: it seems like there was supposed to be something after the bit that's there |
| 20:51 | <jacobolus> | (http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-search-provider-apis) |
| 21:02 | <annevk> | poor wording |
| 21:03 | <annevk> | fixed |
| 21:03 | <annevk> | ta jacobolus |
| 21:03 | <jacobolus> | :) |
| 21:19 | <benschwarz> | Its out! http://germanforblack.com/articles/html5-for-web-developers |
| 21:21 | <annevk> | benschwarz, "Thankyou" -> "Thank you"? |
| 21:22 | <AryehGregor> | I think I have finally figured out a workable and sane initial definition for execCommand("bold"). |
| 21:22 | <benschwarz> | annevk, nice pickup, thanks |
| 21:22 | <AryehGregor> | It has taken me something like 15 hours. |
| 21:23 | <annevk> | was that the command you started out with? |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | Yes. |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | So it includes a bit of time to get familiar with execCommand() itself. |
| 21:23 | <annevk> | figuring out the model is typically the hardest bit |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | In this case, I spent most of the time figuring out a sane way to sane "make all the stuff in this Range bold/unbold". |
| 21:23 | <AryehGregor> | s/to sane/to say/ |
| 21:24 | <AryehGregor> | Ranges are *way* too complicated for this. |
| 21:24 | <zewt> | s/for this// |
| 21:24 | <AryehGregor> | :) |
| 21:24 | <annevk> | doesn't execCommand operate on Selection? |
| 21:24 | <AryehGregor> | Yes, which is defined in terms of Ranges. |
| 21:25 | <annevk> | right, just saying there could be multiple making it more fun potentially |
| 21:25 | <AryehGregor> | It's a one-to-one mapping in every browser except Firefox, which allows multiple Ranges per Selection, but that turned out to be easy to define away. |
| 21:25 | <annevk> | hopefully you do not allow overlapping ranges within a selection |
| 21:25 | <zewt> | i hate multi-ranges, because it makes "Read more at:" clipboard hijacking way too easy :| (though it's possible to do without it) |
| 21:25 | <AryehGregor> | That is allowed, but the behavior is simple anyway. |
| 21:26 | <AryehGregor> | If you have a text node "Foobar", and the first range contains "Foob" and the second contains "obar", and you bold it, then Firefox produces something like "<b>Fo</b>ob<b>ar</b>". |
| 21:26 | <AryehGregor> | Or, no. |
| 21:26 | AryehGregor | tests that |
| 21:26 | <AryehGregor> | Anyway, I just say to style the Ranges one by one, in order. |
| 21:26 | <annevk> | and the ranges are live? |
| 21:27 | <AryehGregor> | . . . yeah, well, that's a separate question. |
| 21:27 | <AryehGregor> | No one has even attempted to define how Ranges behave under DOM mutation. |
| 21:27 | <annevk> | well it sort of matters if you are gonna operate on them :) |
| 21:27 | <AryehGregor> | Which actually is a practical problem for execCommand(), yes. |
| 21:27 | <AryehGregor> | It's occurred to me. |
| 21:27 | <AryehGregor> | But first things first. |
| 21:27 | <annevk> | looking forward to reading through this one day |
| 21:27 | <annevk> | gonna sleep now |
| 21:27 | <AryehGregor> | Here's the draft now: http://aryeh.name/spec/editcommands/editcommands.html |
| 21:28 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, I could use a list of execCommand() usages, to figure out which features people actually use and how they use them. |
| 21:29 | <annevk> | good times |
| 21:29 | <AryehGregor> | Wow, there are a heck of a lot of them. |
| 21:29 | <annevk> | btw |
| 21:29 | <AryehGregor> | This will take me weeks for sure. |
| 21:29 | <annevk> | you should contact Roland |
| 21:29 | <AryehGregor> | Who's Roland? |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | he works on contenteditable/execCommand testing |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | at least some part of his time |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | /msg'd you detaild |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | s |
| 21:31 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, is that related to the stuff that Google submitted to the whatwg at some point? |
| 21:31 | <AryehGregor> | They seemed to be concerned with the stuff I didn't start with, so I put it aside for the time being. |
| 21:31 | <AryehGregor> | But thanks, I'll contact him. |
| 21:31 | <annevk> | it's very much about what exactly execCommand should do given some situation |
| 21:32 | <annevk> | http://groups.google.com/group/browserscope |
| 21:34 | <AryehGregor> | Thanks, I'll take a look. |
| 22:30 | <benschwarz> | Hixie — maybe one you can help with https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues/#issue/33 |